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Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters

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  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 19:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 19:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2025-02-26 21:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 22:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 20:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2025-02-26 20:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 21:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 00:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrewsh@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 09:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 10:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 13:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-02-27 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-02-27 15:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 16:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters thomas@goirand.fr - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-01 11:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-02 15:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tino Didriksen <tino@didriksen.cc> - 2025-02-27 13:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 13:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Rainbolt <arraybolt3@gmail.com> - 2025-02-27 15:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-27 15:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Schrab <aaron@schrab.com> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2025-02-28 02:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-02-28 08:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 19:00 +0100
          BTS not unmangling quoting markers with format=flowed (was: Re:  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-18 01:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 18:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 03:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 17:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 19:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-01 09:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 11:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:40 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:30 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrea Pappacoda <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-02 18:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-03 20:50 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 20:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2025-03-05 20:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80  characters Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-27 22:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 19:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 20:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Roger Lynn <Roger@rilynn.me.uk> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 21:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-03 22:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 09:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-04 09:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 22:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
              Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
                Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-04 11:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-04 08:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 21:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 01:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 01:50 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 02:30 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 17:20 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 18:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 11:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 07:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-06 08:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 11:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-07 16:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-06 14:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Giuseppe Sacco <eppesuig@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 15:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 00:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-07 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 00:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 02:00 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2025-03-09 06:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 22:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-09 22:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 10:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-09 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-09 23:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 01:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-10 11:10 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
              please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: please do not use text/markdown Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                  Re: please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-10 14:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 22:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 11:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2025-03-15 21:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Christoph Berg <myon@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 21:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-15 19:20 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 20:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> - 2025-03-16 15:20 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:50 +0100
                      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 20:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-09 12:30 +0100

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#116128

Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

> I agree. Having the sending MUA wrap text creates problems, even with
> efforts like format=flowed that try to hint to the receiving MUA how to
> unwrap the text.

I am getting nerd-sniped here and really should continue ignoring this
thread, but just for the record:

* You are not using format=flowed. (Some other people on this thread are,
  but your messages are not.) You are sending your messages as simple
  text/plain. You or your MUA is adding a space to the end of each line as
  if the message were format=flowed, but it is not marked format=flowed,
  so none of that is working.

* You are not wrapping the text part of your messages at 80 columns
  currently. You are hard-wrapping them at something like 90 or 95
  columns, which is strictly worse than *either* wrapping them under 80
  columns *or* not wrapping them at all.

I don't think this was intentional, to be clear, but I believe your MUA is
not working the way that you think it's working.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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#116130 — Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters]

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On 2025-03-03, at 14:26:36 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> [snip] I am getting nerd-sniped here [snip]

I did not know that there was a word for this.  I have learnt
something fun to-day.  Thanks, Russ (and Randall). :)

J.

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#116142 — Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters]

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On Mon, Mar 03, 2025 at 10:44:35PM +0000, Jeremy Sowden wrote:
> On 2025-03-03, at 14:26:36 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > [snip] I am getting nerd-sniped here [snip]
> I did not know that there was a word for this.  I have learnt
> something fun to-day.  Thanks, Russ (and Randall). :)

xkcd.com/356 :)


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

 ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
 ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
 ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀  OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
 ⠈⠳⣄

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

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#116131

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On Monday, March 3, 2025 3:26:36 PM MST Russ Allbery wrote:
> Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
> > I agree. Having the sending MUA wrap text creates problems, even with
> > efforts like format=flowed that try to hint to the receiving MUA how to
> > unwrap the text.
> 
> I am getting nerd-sniped here and really should continue ignoring this
> thread, but just for the record:
> 
> * You are not using format=flowed. (Some other people on this thread are,
>   but your messages are not.) You are sending your messages as simple
>   text/plain. You or your MUA is adding a space to the end of each line as
>   if the message were format=flowed, but it is not marked format=flowed,
>   so none of that is working.

I agree.  Kmail does not have controls for format=flowed and does not advertise that it 
supports it, although it appears to have adopted part of the standard.

As I have written in other parts of this discussion, I do not feel that format=flowed is the 
solution, although I have no objection if other people send emails to the mailing list that 
are format=flowed.

> * You are not wrapping the text part of your messages at 80 columns
>   currently. You are hard-wrapping them at something like 90 or 95
>   columns, which is strictly worse than *either* wrapping them under 80
>   columns *or* not wrapping them at all.
> 
> I don't think this was intentional, to be clear, but I believe your MUA is
> not working the way that you think it's working.

That is interesting.  I have Kmail set to wrap at 80 columns.  However, it wouldn’t surprise 
me if Kmail has some bug in this regard.

Please feel free to submit a bug report to Kmail if you like.

From my perspective, the correct result is for this discussion to reach the consensus that 
there is no expectation that sending MUAs wrap text, at which point I will disable the 
setting in Kmail to wrap text at 80 columns and, even if Kmail has some sort of bug that is 
converting 80 columns to 90 or 95 columns, it should never manifest again in any email 
that I send.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116133

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> However, I would appreciate it if this discussion were not hijacked
> to discuss HTML vs. plain text.

In case we define any new rules, it has to cover both.

> That is interesting.  I have Kmail set to wrap at 80 columns. 
> However, it wouldn’t surprise me if Kmail has some bug in this
> regard.

No one asked you to (manually) wrap on the editor level. You should
wrap on the protocol level, which is a different thing.

Now with your setup, you are doing both at the same time with silly
results. Please take a look at the source code of your messages.

As someone else already pointed out, your editor-level line length is
around 92 characters, and then each 92 character line is split into two
lines with 78 and around 14 characters. It is also wrapping in the
middle of words.

Your setup is broken for any convention.

Regards

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#116149

On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 10:42 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> From my perspective, the correct result is for this discussion to 
> reach the consensus that there is no expectation that sending MUAs 
> wrap text

I don't think we've reached that consensus in this discussion.

-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116146

On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 9:42 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> Hence, I propose that we change the expectation so that the sending 
> MUA is not expected to wrap text.

In which case, how can the receiving MUA know which lines are wrappable 
and which are not? Related, how can the sending MUA signal which lines 
are wrappable and which are not?


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116161

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On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 5:08:43 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 9:42 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> > Hence, I propose that we change the expectation so that the sending
> > MUA is not expected to wrap text.
> 
> In which case, how can the receiving MUA know which lines are wrappable
> and which are not? Related, how can the sending MUA signal which lines
> are wrappable and which are not?

This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t know was possible.  In 
a plain text email, is it possible to indicate that certain lines are not wrappable?  I know it is 
possible in an HTML email, but I was unaware of any way of doing so in a plain text email 
(at least, any generally accepted standard).

For example, on my cell phone I use Thunderbird as my MUA.  In portrait mode on my 
device text wraps at about 40 columns.  Are you saying that you can send a plain text 
email in such a way that Thunderbird or any other MUA on a cell phone will force scrolling 
left and right to read the lines instead of having the MUA wrap them at the edge of the 
screen?

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116162

Le Tue, Mar 04, 2025 at 12:52:39PM -0700, Soren Stoutner a écrit :
> 
> This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t know was
> possible.  In a plain text email, is it possible to indicate that certain
> lines are not wrappable?

I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of
text/markdown at this point...

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy                         Nagahama, Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan
Debian Med packaging team         http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tooting from home                  https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy
- You  do not have  my permission  to use  this email  to train  an AI -

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#116163

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On 2025-03-05 08:52:22 +0900 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
[...]
> I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of 
> text/markdown at this point...
[...]

Surely you mean troff/groff?
.Pp
.Bd It's \fIthe best\fP!

;)
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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#116164

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On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 5:43:07 PM MST Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> On 2025-03-05 08:52:22 +0900 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
> [...]
> 
> > I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of
> > text/markdown at this point...
> 
> [...]
> 
> Surely you mean troff/groff?
> .Pp
> .Bd It's \fIthe best\fP!
> 
> ;)

Thank you.  I needed that smile today.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116179

On Tue Mar 4, 2025 at 7:52 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t 
> know was possible.  In a plain text email, is it possible to indicate 
> that certain lines are not wrappable?

Yes. That's exactly what format=flowed does. Line ends in space? 
Wrappable. Line doesn't? Not wrappable.

> For example, on my cell phone I use Thunderbird as my MUA.  In 
> portrait mode on my device text wraps at about 40 columns.  Are you 
> saying that you can send a plain text email in such a way that 
> Thunderbird or any other MUA on a cell phone will force scrolling left 
> and right to read the lines instead of having the MUA wrap them at the 
> edge of the screen?

Force, no. Thunderbird on Android might choose to wrap lines that are 
not marked as wrappable. As a sender, the best I can do is advise.




-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116182

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On 2025-03-05 16:17:20 +0000 (+0000), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Tue Mar 4, 2025 at 7:52 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> > This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t 
> > know was possible.  In a plain text email, is it possible to 
> > indicate that certain lines are not wrappable?
>
> Yes. That's exactly what format=flowed does. Line ends in space? 
> Wrappable. Line doesn't? Not wrappable.
[...]

Semantics maybe, but that's not how I interpret the format=flowed 
spec (or perhaps the question).

Having a space at the end of a line indicates the line has been 
soft-wrapped by the sender, so from the reader's perspective the 
line should be logically (re)combined with the line following it. 
That doesn't exactly say whether or not a line *can* be wrapped, but 
rather that it was preemptively soft-wrapped and so can be 
automatically "unwrapped" or "rewrapped" after concatenating 
subsequent lines.

Absence of a space at the line end doesn't say not to wrap that 
line, but merely not to combine it with the line that follows. The 
line itself can still be wrapped as needed if it exceeds the 
client's preferred length.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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#116468

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Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 14:42 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
> Interesting.  I guess that text could be interpreted as “Do not send
> an HTML part, even if you also send a plain text part.”

Are you serious? That does not make any sense.

> Please don't send your messages in HTML; use plain text instead.
https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.html

How could it be more clear?

> However, I would appreciate it if this discussion were not hijacked
> to discuss HTML vs. plain text. 

The whole discussion requires that we know what the rules mean,
especially if you want to change them.

Regards

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#116477

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On Saturday, March 15, 2025 3:08:01 AM Mountain Standard Time Stephan Verbücheln 
wrote:
> Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 14:42 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
> > Interesting.  I guess that text could be interpreted as “Do not send
> > an HTML part, even if you also send a plain text part.”
> 
> Are you serious? That does not make any sense.
> 
> > Please don't send your messages in HTML; use plain text instead.
> 
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.html
> 
> How could it be more clear?
> 
> > However, I would appreciate it if this discussion were not hijacked
> > to discuss HTML vs. plain text.
> 
> The whole discussion requires that we know what the rules mean,
> especially if you want to change them.
> 
> Regards

This discussion isn’t about this at all.  If you would like to start a discussion about HTML, 
please feel free to do so under a different thread.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116204

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On Wed, Mar 05, 2025 at 09:32:05PM -0800, James Lu wrote:
>If I were to write, say, a Thunderbird extension that forcibly unwraps 
>text I receive, regardless of whether format=flowed was specified, 
>what would be the implication?

This (as a mild but easy to get example of pre-formatted text):

>For sake of argument:- If this re-wrapping is purely client side and 
>happens after PGP verification, incoming mail could still show as 
>verified (but it may look slightly different)- I could toggle this on/off 
>per message, so that I can still write inline replies based on the 
>original message's formatting


-- 
WBR, wRAR

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#116205

Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> writes:

> This (as a mild but easy to get example of pre-formatted text):
>
>> For sake of argument:- If this re-wrapping is purely client side and
>> happens after PGP verification, incoming mail could still show as
>> verified (but it may look slightly different)- I could toggle this
>> on/off per message, so that I can still write inline replies based
>> on the original message's formatting

There are many other forms of text where we can't merely consider them
as paragraphs of prose. For instance, in technical mailing lists,
snippets of source code are quite common. Additionally, one may
encounter elements like postal addresses or poetry, where (hard)
newlines matter for proper formatting. Some individuals still favor the
traditional practice of indenting paragraphs rather than the "block
paragraph" style that predominates in today's email culture (most likely
due to challenges in this exact issue).

It is essential to have a method for distinguishing between hard and
soft newlines if you want to reflow text properly.

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#116255

On Thu Mar 6, 2025 at 7:08 AM GMT, Henrik Ahlgren wrote:
> It is essential to have a method for distinguishing between hard and
> soft newlines if you want to reflow text properly.

Agreed! And, as Jeremy Stanley points out in another msg, this is not 
*quite* what format=flowed promises.




-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116260

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On 2025-03-07 10:08:23 +0000 (+0000), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu Mar 6, 2025 at 7:08 AM GMT, Henrik Ahlgren wrote:
> > It is essential to have a method for distinguishing between hard 
> > and soft newlines if you want to reflow text properly.
>
> Agreed! And, as Jeremy Stanley points out in another msg, this is 
> not *quite* what format=flowed promises.

Eh, it's pretty close though. The gist is that a <space><linebreak> 
sequence is meant to represent a soft line break, while <linebreak> 
not preceded by <space> is a regular hard line break. (Whether 
<linebreak> is <CR><LF> or bare <LF> depends on whether you're 
considering it at the SMTP layer or MUA/editor of course.)

My earlier message was more contesting the suggestion that absence 
of a soft line break implies the line should not be *wrapped* into 
multiple shorter lines by the client (i.e. the preformatted text 
case), which is incorrect; rather it means that line should not be 
logically *combined* with the next (treat it as a hard line break).

So it basically does provide a means of encoding the soft vs. hard 
line break distinction, it's just that soft and hard line breaks 
don't tell you what can be wrapped, they tell you what can be 
combined. The underlying assumption is that every line can be 
wrapped, but not all lines can be combined. This is also at the 
heart of the lack of suitability for preformatted text, e.g. inline 
patch diffs.

Maybe part of the confusion is that some of us define the term "line 
wrapping" differently?
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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#116226

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On 2025-03-06 at 00:32, James Lu wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> On 2025-02-26 10:21, Soren Stoutner wrote:

>> However, from a technical perspective, having the *sending* program
>>  decide where line breaks should be in an email doesn’t seem like
>> the correct approach to me because, 1) the sending program does not
>> know the screen width of the receiving program, and 2) there is
>> large variability in the screen width of receiving devices,
>> including cell phones who are often less than 80 characters wide.
> 
> There's plenty of discussion about format=flowed elsewhere in this 
> thread, but unfortunately it never caught on. This got me thinking 
> though: why do email clients *have* to show hard-wrapped text as-is?
> If I were to write, say, a Thunderbird extension that forcibly
> unwraps text I receive, regardless of whether format=flowed was
> specified, what would be the implication?

At my workplace, I am obliged to use Outlook.

By default, Outlook seems to do exactly that, on the recipient and
viewing side: it leaves the actual representation on-disk etc. alone,
but if it sees consecutive non-blank lines (I'm guessing the criterion
is actually "has something other than whitespace at the start of the
line"), it will fold those lines together into a single line (with the
division point represented by, as far as I can see, a single space) at
rendering time. There seems to be nothing you can do, as the sender, to
affect this behavior for the recipient - not short of using *double*
newlines, turning each "line" into its own paragraph.

There seem to be some special rules relating to punctuation (if the
previous line ends with a period, the next one won't be folded into the
same line; if the new line begins with a '>', the two lines won't be
folded together; I've also seen cases where the new line begins with a
single word followed by a period and a close-paren get the new line not
folded in to the previous), but I don't have a full handle on those, and
the 100-foot view of the behavior remains the same.

This sometimes makes no difference, and sometimes drives me *batty*,
especially given how much effort I put in to manually adding those
hard-line-breaks in all the mails I have to compose in Outlook (since it
won't add them itself).

There *is* a setting which can disable this behavior; I don't remember
what it is, except that it might be (or be a subset of) the "read E-mail
as plain text" setting which they designate as being a security option.
That setting is per-client, however.

...which has the effect that the same person can see the same mail
rendered differently when reading it on different devices. I personally
find that to be a negative, but others may well find it to be a
positive.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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