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Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters

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  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 19:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 19:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2025-02-26 21:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 22:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 20:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2025-02-26 20:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 21:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 00:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrewsh@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 09:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 10:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 13:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-02-27 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-02-27 15:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 16:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters thomas@goirand.fr - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-01 11:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-02 15:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tino Didriksen <tino@didriksen.cc> - 2025-02-27 13:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 13:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Rainbolt <arraybolt3@gmail.com> - 2025-02-27 15:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-27 15:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Schrab <aaron@schrab.com> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2025-02-28 02:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-02-28 08:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 19:00 +0100
          BTS not unmangling quoting markers with format=flowed (was: Re:  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-18 01:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 18:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 03:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 17:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 19:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-01 09:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 11:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:40 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:30 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrea Pappacoda <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-02 18:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-03 20:50 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 20:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2025-03-05 20:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80  characters Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-27 22:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 19:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 20:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Roger Lynn <Roger@rilynn.me.uk> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 21:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-03 22:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 09:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-04 09:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 22:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
              Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
                Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-04 11:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-04 08:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 21:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 01:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 01:50 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 02:30 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 17:20 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 18:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 11:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 07:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-06 08:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 11:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-07 16:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-06 14:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Giuseppe Sacco <eppesuig@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 15:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 00:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-07 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 00:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 02:00 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2025-03-09 06:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 22:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-09 22:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 10:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-09 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-09 23:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 01:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-10 11:10 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
              please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: please do not use text/markdown Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                  Re: please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-10 14:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 22:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 11:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2025-03-15 21:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Christoph Berg <myon@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 21:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-15 19:20 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 20:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> - 2025-03-16 15:20 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:50 +0100
                      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 20:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-09 12:30 +0100

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#116511 — BTS not unmangling quoting markers with format=flowed (was: Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters)

Hi!

On Sun, 2025-03-16 at 18:55:52 +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
> On Sun, 2025-03-16 at 18:18:58 +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
> > […]
> > such as:
> > 
> >   # On time+3, Carol wrote:
> >   # >On time+2, Bob wrote:
> >   # >>On time+1, Alice wrote:
> >   # >>>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or 
> >   # >>>so, continued.
> >   # >>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
> >   # >>continued.
> >   # >Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
> >   # >continued.
> >   # Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
> >   # continued.
> 
> > Which I find to be very annoying and hard to read from my editor (vim).
> > And checking how this is shown now in mutt (before sending), with
> > text_flowed disabled, but reflow_text enabled, indicates to me the
> > mangling is worse than I thought, but perhaps it's just reflow_text being
> > applied to a text that is not yet sent and will not be format=flowed,
> > thus should not really be applied to, otherwise you might need to check
> > the raw text of the mail. :/
> 
> Ah, sorry, it looks like I started drafting that reply with
> text_flowed enabled, and that was preserved after postponing and
> continuing with a new mutt session with the option disabled. (Hopefully
> the example is seen correctly now.)

I noticed today while reading the BTS what I suspected to be the same
mangling mentioned above (or well lack of unmangling), happening there.
I looked for an example with multiple quoting levels, and quickly found
this one:

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1099935#35

I guess this is just because the BTS does not support format=flowed.
(There's also <https://bugs.debian.org/601242>.)

Thanks,
Guillem

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#116060

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wednesday, February 26, 2025 11:21:42 AM MST Soren Stoutner wrote:
> The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails
> should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

This email has sparked an interesting discussion, which is what I was hoping for.  So far, I 
would summarize the points made as follows.

1.  It would be really cool if all MUAs supported format=flowed, but they don’t, and we 
shouldn’t require special software to interact with the Debian mailing lists.

2.  Some MUAs don’t wrap text correctly with their default values, but so far they all seem 
to have settings that support it.

3.  Some people find it difficult to read long lines of text, but they can adjust their viewing 
windows or display settings to make the lines shorter if they like.

4.  Some people just don’t like change, but do not provide an argument for maintaining 
things at the status quo.

> Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:
> 
> "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines
> longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output (e.g.,
> ls -l).”
> 
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be 
changed to read:

“There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at 
a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose.”

I like this wording because it does not prevent people from wrapping their emails if they 
want.  Although I think the superior options for the entire ecosystem would be that no 
emails are wrapped by the sender, I can imagine there are users who need to interact with 
other ecosystems which require wrapped emails, and forcing them to switch their settings 
back and forth when communicating with Debian would be inconsiderate.

Therefore, I feel the above wording is fair for everyone.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116061

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 09:48:44AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be 
> changed to read:

lol, 22h after proposing to change 20 year old habbits, you still agree with
your idea. i'm not impressed. also you seem to expect other people need to
explain the status quo to you, when you propose to change it. this is not how
things work.

and now that I'm writing this mail to this sad thread I also wont to applaud
your courage to break the rules in your very proposal to change them. (1st mail 
of this thread.) - i mean, why have rules at all?

(the last paragraph is sarcasm.)


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

 ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
 ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
 ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀  OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
 ⠈⠳⣄

Make lying wrong again.

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#116067

Le Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 09:48:44AM -0700, Soren Stoutner a écrit :
> 
> > Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:
> > 
> > "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines
> > longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output (e.g.,
> > ls -l).”
> > 
> > https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> 
> Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be 
> changed to read:
> 
> “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at 
> a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose.”

Hi Soren,

thanks for the proposal! I also think that it is time to adjust our
standards.

I am not in favor of writing rules that say that there is no rule.
Maybe we can go one step further and just modify the rule about
complaining in private to be:

If you want to complain to someone that they wrapped or did not wrap
their lines, or that the sent you a carbon copy, do it privately.

Have a nice day,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy                         Nagahama, Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan
Debian Med packaging team         http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tooting from home                  https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy
- You  do not have  my permission  to use  this email  to train  an AI -

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#116070

On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 4:48 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> 1.  It would be really cool if all MUAs supported format=flowed, but 
> they don’t, and we shouldn’t require special software to interact with 
> the Debian mailing lists.

format=flowed gracefully degrades for software which doesn't support it. 
That software will simply not reformat the lines, so whatever wrapping 
is in the original mail will be preserved. (You will see my text in 
*this* mail wrapped at column 72, unless your client supports reflowing 
and you've configured a different preference.) As such, recommending 
format=flowed does not exclude people using software that doesn't yet 
support it.

>> Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:
>> 
>> "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. 
>> Lines longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated 
>> output (e.g., ls -l).”
>> 
>> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
>
> Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of 
> conduct quoted above be changed to read:
>
> “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are 
> wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails 
> may wrap them if they choose.”

This is effectively recommending nothing at all. If we were to accept 
this change in spirit, I would suggest deleting the existing sentence 
and not replacing it with something which basically says nothing. That 
keeps the CoC as short as possible.

However, as stated above, since format=flowed gracefully degrades I 
don't see a reason why we could not recommend it.

I also wonder whether a lower number than 80 might be a better default 
for mobile clients. I haven't conducted any experiments.


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116080

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On Friday, February 28, 2025 1:28:01 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 4:48 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> > “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are
> > wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails
> > may wrap them if they choose.”
> 
> This is effectively recommending nothing at all. If we were to accept
> this change in spirit, I would suggest deleting the existing sentence
> and not replacing it with something which basically says nothing. That
> keeps the CoC as short as possible.

My concern with that is two-fold.

1.  If we say nothing, there will, from time to time, be people who complain about emails 
not being wrapped at a particular column.  I think we need to be explicit that nobody 
should feel they are authorized to complain about this on the mailing lists.

2.  If we don’t explicitly state that it is OK if people do wrap their emails, from time to time 
people will complain that some emails are wrapped.  I think we need to make it explicit 
that it is not OK to complain if other people do wrap their emails.

The CoC is a good place to list things it is not OK to complain to other people about if 
there is a high likelihood they are going to do so unless it is explicit, especially when it 
represents a change in long-standing behavior.
 
> However, as stated above, since format=flowed gracefully degrades I
> don't see a reason why we could not recommend it.

I agree with that.  I think the above statement includes that for people who already know 
what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that can do so), but perhaps it should be more 
explicit.  Maybe the following.

“There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at 
a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose.  Users may 
send in format=flowed if they desire and their MUA supports it.”

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116083

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Hi,

On Fri Feb 28, 2025 at 5:39 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> I agree with that.  I think the above statement includes that for 
> people who already know what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that 
> can do so), but perhaps it should be more explicit.  Maybe the 
> following.
>
> “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are 
> wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails 
> may wrap them if they choose.  Users may send in format=flowed if they 
> desire and their MUA supports it.”

I think that, if your MUA supports it, sending in format=flowed is 
probably the best thing you can do (or, at least, that's my impression 
- please correct me if I'm wrong). Hence, instead of saying that maybe, 
if you want, you can send in f=f, the document should instead say that 
users are highly encouraged to do so. It is not an issue if they don't, 
but it's great if they do.

Bye!

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#116085

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 09:39:56AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
>The CoC is a good place to list things it is not OK to complain to other people about if
>there is a high likelihood they are going to do so unless it is explicit, especially when it
>represents a change in long-standing behavior.

I am a bit concerned about puting such highly discussable things as 
e-mail formatting in the CoC. The CoC is a document full of things that 
a sensible person does not need to read because it is just a description 
about what a sensible society expects from its members and any sane 
person is going to to do anyway. It's a pity that it is needed (and 
expected, nowadays) to put such things in writing.

So, please, let's do something like "Debian mailing list etiquette" 
instead.

Greetings
Marc


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber         | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany    |  lose things."    Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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#116087

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On Friday, February 28, 2025 10:37:51 AM MST Andrea Pappacoda wrote:
> [off-list]
> 
> On Fri Feb 28, 2025 at 5:39 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> > I agree with that.  I think the above statement includes that for people who
> > already know what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that can do so), but
> > perhaps it should be more explicit.  Maybe the following.
> > 
> > “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped
> > by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap
> > them if they choose.  Users may send in format=flowed if they desire and
> > their MUA supports it.”
> 
> Hey Soren, speaking of format=flowed, it seems that your client sends
> the plain text format in flowed format (i.e., with spaces at the end of
> wrapped lines), but it doesn't set the content-type to f=f (i.e., you
> have "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8" instead of "Content-Type:
> text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed".
> 
> Do you know if this is on purpose? Setting the appropriate content-type
> parameter would allow clients to reflow text as desired :)

I have no idea.  I did some searching for format=flowed and Kmail and didn’t find much 
that is interesting, but I might not have looked deeply.  Certainly, there is nothing in the 
settings that indicate any controls for it.

One of the things that people who feel strongly about format=flowed can do would be to 
open up feature requests with every MUA and ask that it be officially supported.  I 
considered doing so with Kmail, but decided against it because, as described in my 
original email, I think it is incorrect from a technical perspective for the sending MUA to 
determine where to wrap text.  I think the correct behavior is for the sending MUA to not 
wrap text at all unless the user decides to put in a hard line break.  I believe all line 
wrapping should be handled solely by the receiving MUA, which allows correct dynamic 
wrapping on any size screen.

Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really want the sending MUA 
to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so here is a cludge to work around it.”  When 
you get rid of the first part (really wanting the sending MUA to wrap text) suddenly there is 
no need for the second part.

In 2025, any MUA that can’t figure out how to wrap receiving text deserves a bug report.

However, even though I feel that this is the correct approach, if Kmail had controls for 
sending format=flowed I would be fine with that.  So, if someone else wants to make the 
pitch to the Kmail developers (which will probably require sending a patch if you really 
want to see it merged), I would not dissuade them.

When I was searching, I came across the following blog post, which I thought was a bit 
insightful.

https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116088

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Hi,

* Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
>Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really 
>want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so 
>here is a cludge to work around it.”
I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the 
line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it 
(yet)."

>https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/
Only a webmail provider can bitch about the complexity of text wrapping 
and then proceed to recommend HTML, which is even more complex to render 
and even more difficult to sanitize from malicious JavaScript. I guess 
life is much simpler if you can rely on browser developers to do the 
heavy lifting for you.


Cheers
Timo

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀   ╭────────────────────────────────────────────────────╮
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   │ Timo Röhling                                       │
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀   │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1  23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀   ╰────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯

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#116093

On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 09:48:36 +0100, Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org>
wrote:
>* Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
>>Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really 
>>want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so 
>>here is a cludge to work around it.”
>I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the 
>line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it 
>(yet)."

I am positively surprised that so many people in Debian still use mutt
(it's by far the most efficient way to handle large amounts of e-mail
including mailing lists"), so we need to cater for the fact that
e-mails are written in an entirely different software (an "editor"¹)
than it is consumed in.

Greetings
Marc

¹ to make it harder, the combination between mail reader and editor
multiplies. That was worse back when we had more than one
console-based mail reader.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE   |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

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#116094

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Quoting Marc Haber (2025-03-02 11:12:18)
> On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 09:48:36 +0100, Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org>
> wrote:
> >* Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
> >>Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really 
> >>want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so 
> >>here is a cludge to work around it.”
> >I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the 
> >line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it 
> >(yet)."
> 
> I am positively surprised that so many people in Debian still use mutt
> (it's by far the most efficient way to handle large amounts of e-mail
> including mailing lists"), so we need to cater for the fact that
> e-mails are written in an entirely different software (an "editor"¹)
> than it is consumed in.

Good point!


> ¹ to make it harder, the combination between mail reader and editor
> multiplies. That was worse back when we had more than one
> console-based mail reader.

Not sure I follow your remark about "more than one console-based mail
reader" as something of the past.  Previously in this thread I noticed
aerc mentioned,  personally I use alot and might migrate to meli, all of
which are console-based MUAs (and all three arguably better integrated
with notmuch, for those interested in that).

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
 * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#116102

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On 02/03/2025 18:12, Marc Haber wrote:
(...)
> I am positively surprised that so many people in Debian still use mutt
> (it's by far the most efficient way to handle large amounts of e-mail
> including mailing lists"), so we need to cater for the fact that
> e-mails are written in an entirely different software (an "editor"¹)
> than it is consumed in.

You gotta love having a central code forge which so many use,
but some object to.
Also a little less than one hundred ways of packaging.

> Greetings
> Marc
> 
> ¹ to make it harder, the combination between mail reader and editor
> multiplies. That was worse back when we had more than one
> console-based mail reader.

In another email, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 02, 2025 at 09:00:21PM +0800, Blair Noctis wrote:
>> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).
> 
> It's a bitch to reply to in mutt/vim. 

Sorry to hear that.
I installed mutt and tried to reply to that email,
and mutt showed me the Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 source.
I'm not sure if that's what you saw.
If you saw the decoded text,
I copied it into vim and vim seems to wrap it just fine.
Would you kindly show me how it looked on your side?

-- 
Sdrager,
Blair Noctis

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#116107

On Mon, Mar 03, 2025 at 01:39:11AM +0800, Blair Noctis wrote:
>I installed mutt and tried to reply to that email,
>and mutt showed me the Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 source.
>I'm not sure if that's what you saw.
>If you saw the decoded text,
>I copied it into vim and vim seems to wrap it just fine.

Thankfully you usually don't copy the message into vim, but you hit 
R)eply, L)ist Reply or reply A)ll and mutt fires up the Editor for you.

>Would you kindly show me how it looked on your side?

In the Editor, the long lines show up as long lines, with the 
disadvantage that you either quote them not at all, or completely, or 
have to go through intra-line editing to just leave what you want to 
quote, and if it's a really long line vim will not show it at all 
instead of partially.

That is surely something that one could adapt to, but I'd hate having 
to.

Notes and Outlook have done incredible damage to E-Mail culture, 
introducing Top-Posting as the widely accepted (but totally inferior) 
way to have discussions in e-mail. Please let us consider using a method 
that doesn't make discussions harder.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber         | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany    |  lose things."    Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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#116097

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On 01/03/2025 16:48, Timo Röhling wrote:
> * Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
(...)
>> https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/
> Only a webmail provider can bitch about the complexity of text wrapping and then proceed to recommend HTML, which is even more complex to render and even more difficult to sanitize from malicious JavaScript. I guess life is much simpler if you can rely on browser developers to do the heavy lifting for you.

FWIW, you can use their service via IMAP and SMTP. Open source webmails also exist.

Text wrapping is complex, and yes, life is much simpler relying on browsers doing the heavy lifting, maybe because it's so hard to do with non-browser libraries.

JavaScript seems to be not allowed in most MUAs (as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_email_clients), notably exceptions include Thunderbird (TIL! Can be disabled via javascript.enabled in about:config) and Outlook Express (which I assume most of you wouldn't use).

-- 
Sdrager,
Blair Noctis

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#116105

On Sun, 2 Mar 2025 21:14:54 +0800, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org>
wrote:
>Open source webmails also exist.

"When you're 10 out of 10 but it's your CVSS score".

Greetings
Marc
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE   |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

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#116099

Il giorno sab 1 mar 2025 alle 09:48:36 +01:00:00, Timo Röhling 
<roehling@debian.org> ha scritto:
> * Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
>> Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We 
>> really want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible 
>> problems, so here is a cludge to work around it.”

Quite the opposite!

> I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the 
> line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it 
> (yet)."

In addition to what Timo said, format=flowed also resolves some other 
issues like how to unambiguously identifying quoted lines from lines 
starting with ">", and others. HTML also solves the same issues, and 
more, but introduces its own problems.

>> https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/

Rather than "the little standard that couldnʼt quite make it", I'd 
call this article "the standard that we (Fastmail) wanted to support, 
but couldn't make it". More than highlighting any particular issue with 
format=flowed itself, it just gives their rationale for not supporting 
it. Of course, if all you do is writing and receiving HTML emails in an 
HTML web application, focusing on plain text formats makes little 
sense. It does not look relevant for our mailing lists, though.

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#116116

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On Sunday, March 2, 2025 9:50:47 AM MST Andrea Pappacoda wrote:
> >> https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/
> 
> Rather than "the little standard that couldnʼt quite make it", I'd
> call this article "the standard that we (Fastmail) wanted to support,
> but couldn't make it". More than highlighting any particular issue with
> format=flowed itself, it just gives their rationale for not supporting
> it. Of course, if all you do is writing and receiving HTML emails in an
> HTML web application, focusing on plain text formats makes little
> sense. It does not look relevant for our mailing lists, though.

I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the following myself, but I 
thought it was interesting that the article above linked to the following:

https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Thunderbird

Which has instructions for disabling format=flowed, saying it caused problems.  I’m not 
sure how much OpenStack represents general consensus for what works best on mailing 
lists, but it is at least one data point.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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#116121

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On 2025-03-03 10:35:32 -0700 (-0700), Soren Stoutner wrote:
[...]
> I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the 
> following myself, but I thought it was interesting that the 
> article above linked to the following:
>
> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Thunderbird
>
> Which has instructions for disabling format=flowed, saying it 
> caused problems.  I’m not sure how much OpenStack represents 
> general consensus for what works best on mailing lists, but it is 
> at least one data point.

I'm the main list admin for the OpenStack mailing lists these days, 
and I haven't observed it causing any issues. Also, as the main 
admin for that wiki, I feel compelled to point out the article you 
linked has included that disclaimer about Thunderbird's 
format=flowed problems since before it was migrated from MoinMoin to 
Mediawiki over 13 years ago, so it very well could be outdated. 
Based on the context in the last sentence of that section, I think 
it may have been something to do with inlined diffs/patches being 
malformed by the client with that option enabled, so I wouldn't be 
surprised if it's been fixed in the decade+ since.

I'll go ahead and annotate the recommendation to suggest it's 
probably outdated, thanks for pointing that out!
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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#116123

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On Monday, March 3, 2025 12:48:24 PM MST Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> On 2025-03-03 10:35:32 -0700 (-0700), Soren Stoutner wrote:
> [...]
> 
> > I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the
> > following myself, but I thought it was interesting that the
> > article above linked to the following:
> > 
> > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Thunderbird
> > 
> > Which has instructions for disabling format=flowed, saying it
> > caused problems.  I’m not sure how much OpenStack represents
> > general consensus for what works best on mailing lists, but it is
> > at least one data point.
> 
> I'm the main list admin for the OpenStack mailing lists these days,
> and I haven't observed it causing any issues. Also, as the main
> admin for that wiki, I feel compelled to point out the article you
> linked has included that disclaimer about Thunderbird's
> format=flowed problems since before it was migrated from MoinMoin to
> Mediawiki over 13 years ago, so it very well could be outdated.
> Based on the context in the last sentence of that section, I think
> it may have been something to do with inlined diffs/patches being
> malformed by the client with that option enabled, so I wouldn't be
> surprised if it's been fixed in the decade+ since.
> 
> I'll go ahead and annotate the recommendation to suggest it's
> probably outdated, thanks for pointing that out!

Good to know.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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