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Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters

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  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 19:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 19:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2025-02-26 21:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 22:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 20:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2025-02-26 20:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 21:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 00:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrewsh@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 09:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 10:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 13:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-02-27 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-02-27 15:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 16:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters thomas@goirand.fr - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-01 11:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-02 15:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tino Didriksen <tino@didriksen.cc> - 2025-02-27 13:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 13:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Rainbolt <arraybolt3@gmail.com> - 2025-02-27 15:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-27 15:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Schrab <aaron@schrab.com> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2025-02-28 02:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-02-28 08:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 19:00 +0100
          BTS not unmangling quoting markers with format=flowed (was: Re:  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-18 01:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 18:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 03:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 17:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 19:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-01 09:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 11:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:40 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:30 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrea Pappacoda <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-02 18:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-03 20:50 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 20:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2025-03-05 20:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80  characters Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-27 22:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 19:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 20:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Roger Lynn <Roger@rilynn.me.uk> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 21:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-03 22:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 09:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-04 09:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 22:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
              Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
                Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-04 11:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-04 08:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 21:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 01:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 01:50 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 02:30 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 17:20 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 18:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 11:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 07:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-06 08:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 11:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-07 16:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-06 14:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Giuseppe Sacco <eppesuig@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 15:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 00:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-07 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 00:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 02:00 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2025-03-09 06:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 22:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-09 22:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 10:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-09 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-09 23:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 01:40 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-10 11:10 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
              please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: please do not use text/markdown Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                  Re: please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-10 14:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 22:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 11:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2025-03-15 21:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Christoph Berg <myon@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 21:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-15 19:20 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 20:00 +0100
                  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> - 2025-03-16 15:20 +0100
                    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:50 +0100
                      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 20:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-09 12:30 +0100

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#116086

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 06:30:00PM +0100, thomas@goirand.fr wrote:
> On Feb 27, 2025 12:02, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> wrote:
> > actually struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text.
> The standard for email is 74 chars, not 80...

RFC2822 says 78 characters.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2822#section-2.1.1

J.

-- 
  Sunday morning is every day for  |  .''`.  Debian GNU/Linux Developer
    all I care...  and I'm not     | : :' :  Happy to accept PGP signed
              scared.              | `. `'   or encrypted mail - RSA
                                   |   `-    key on the keyservers.

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#116089

Le 28 février 2025 18:34:45 GMT+01:00, Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> a écrit :
>On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 06:30:00PM +0100, thomas@goirand.fr wrote:
>> On Feb 27, 2025 12:02, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> wrote:
>> > actually struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text.
>> The standard for email is 74 chars, not 80...
>
>RFC2822 says 78 characters.
>
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2822#section-2.1.1

What about 2 * pi * 12 so we close the loop ?

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#116095

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 01/03/2025 01:30, thomas@goirand.fr wrote:
> 
> On Feb 27, 2025 12:02, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> wrote:
>> actually struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text.
> 
> The standard for email is 74 chars, not 80...

It's a rant. The actual number didn't matter.

But then again, I thought it's 80, you said it's 74 in "the standard", someone said it's 78 in RFC2822, and someone else said, quote:

> You will see my text in *this* mail wrapped at column 72

Well.

I used to wrap my emails at 80, didn't seem to trigger rants about "breaking the standard". I don't think anyone actually checks the wrapping length with a ruler, but rather, that text is wrapped, and at "about the right length". (Do you really notice the difference between wrapping at 74/80?) So the status quo is we all have different ideas about wrapping and to wrap at what length, use different software that handle it differently and configure the software differently, but then aren't actually strict when it comes to actually reading the wrapped text.

To wrap or not to wrap, that's the problem. Or really, to wrap at (some fixed length) vs to wrap at (width of the window/control/view that contains the text, or if the software is capable enough, a customizable width).

It's also a preference, not a hard rule, so I see no end in this debate, just like spaces vs tabs, even though I believe that not to wrap, just like tabs, gives the receiving end more freedom.

FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

-- 
Sdrager,
Blair Noctis

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#116096

On Sun, Mar 02, 2025 at 09:00:21PM +0800, Blair Noctis wrote:
>FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

It's a bitch to reply to in mutt/vim.

Greetings
Marc


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber         | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany    |  lose things."    Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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#116098

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Wrapping at 72 is intentional to allow a few levels of quotations. That
is where the slightly different numbers come from. The hard limit is 80
because of the 80x24 terminal convention.

Regards

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#116100

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi Blair,

On Sun Mar 2, 2025 at 2:00 PM CET, Blair Noctis wrote:
> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, 
> hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to 
> let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

Yeah, this email has been sent with the Format=Flowed Content-Type 
parameter, but the message actually still has long, non-wrapped, lines 
and you aren't using "soft breaks", (i.e., line breaks preceded by 
a space, called "flowed lines" in the RFC). So... Setting format=flowed 
doesn't bring any benefit in this case :/

In other words, your paragraph as sent below:

> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

should've been sent as:

> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, 
> hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to 
> let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

without "> ", of course :)
Note how lines are break at ~72 cols, but all end with a space apart 
from the last one.

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#116104

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On 03/03/2025 01:08, Andrea Pappacoda wrote:
> Hi Blair,
> 
> On Sun Mar 2, 2025 at 2:00 PM CET, Blair Noctis wrote:
>> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully 
>> also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, 
>> which effectively means to wrap, or not).
> 
> Yeah, this email has been sent with the Format=Flowed Content-Type parameter, 
> but the message actually still has long, non-wrapped, lines and you aren't using 
> "soft breaks", (i.e., line breaks preceded by a space, called "flowed lines" in 
> the RFC). So... Setting format=flowed doesn't bring any benefit in this case :/
> 
> In other words, your paragraph as sent below:
> 
>> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully 
>> also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, 
>> which effectively means to wrap, or not).
> 
> should've been sent as:
> 
>> FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully 
>> also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, 
>> which effectively means to wrap, or not).
> 
> without "> ", of course :)
> Note how lines are break at ~72 cols, but all end with a space apart from the 
> last one.

Thanks Andrea,
for not only pointing it out but also analyzing the cause.
I guess it's a problem in Thunderbird which I currently use.
The comparison didn't work in it either;
only in the source view did I see the difference:
In your Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable reply message,
the original paragraph I sent has = at the end of each line,
while your correctly flowed message has =20.
I'm not sure how this happened,
but it's another reason I need to get off Thunderbird.

-- 
Sdrager,
Blair Noctis

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#116047

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On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 at 19:21, Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:

> The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails
> should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.
>

Wholeheartedly agree. Forced line wrapping is archaic, and not just in
emails. Any viewer or editor worth anything can display long lines in a way
that flows and indents with surroundings.

format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not. And,
we shouldn't require specific software to use the mailing lists.

-- Tino Didriksen

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#116048

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On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 12:50:30PM +0100, Tino Didriksen wrote:
> Wholeheartedly agree. Forced line wrapping is archaic, and not just in
> emails. Any viewer or editor worth anything can display long lines in a way
> that flows and indents with surroundings.
> 
> format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not. And,
> we shouldn't require specific software to use the mailing lists.

your 2nd paragraph contradicts the 1st.


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

 ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
 ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
 ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀  OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
 ⠈⠳⣄

Die meisten Menschen können sich eher das Aussterben der Menschheit vorstellen
als das Ende von Herrschaftsideologie und Kapitalismus. (@elektra_42)

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#116053

On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 11:50 AM GMT, Tino Didriksen wrote:
> format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not. 
> And, we shouldn't require specific software to use the mailing lists.

We could widen its implementation, at least with software we supply (and 
things like the BTS or our own mailing list archives)


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116051

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
>The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that 
>emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be 
>dropped.
[...]
>I understand that there are historical reasons for the 80 character 
>limit, but I believe that it is time to reassess best practices.  My 
>recommendation is that sending email programs should not wrap text at 
>an arbitrary column, and that all wrapping of text should be handled by 
>the receiving program, which is, of course, the only program that has 
>insight into the width of the screen where the email is currently being 
>displayed.
>
>I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that 
>those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients 
>and devices.

I found your email difficult to read.  I mostly read email in mutt in a 
tmux shared with my IRC client, so I normally prefer to keep that window 
fully maximized for the benefit of IRC, but email tends to be a bit hard 
to read if it actually takes up the full width there.  Sender-wrapped or 
format=flowed (which mutt renders quite nicely by default these days) 
works well for me as a receiver; unwrapped doesn't really.

This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my 
mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's 
somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of dinosaur 
setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the last time I 
looked at this eons ago.  I needed this in ~/.config/nvim/init.vim 
(should also work in ~/.vimrc):

   au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w

And this in ~/.muttrc:

   set text_flowed

That seems to work pretty well.  I reflowed the parts of your message 
that I quoted here to match.

-- 
Colin Watson (he/him)                              [cjwatson@debian.org]

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#116055

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 7:30 AM Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> >The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that
> >emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be
> >dropped.
> [...]
> >I understand that there are historical reasons for the 80 character
> >limit, but I believe that it is time to reassess best practices.  My
> >recommendation is that sending email programs should not wrap text at
> >an arbitrary column, and that all wrapping of text should be handled by
> >the receiving program, which is, of course, the only program that has
> >insight into the width of the screen where the email is currently being
> >displayed.
> >
> >I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that
> >those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients
> >and devices.
>
> I found your email difficult to read.  I mostly read email in mutt in a
> tmux shared with my IRC client, so I normally prefer to keep that window
> fully maximized for the benefit of IRC, but email tends to be a bit hard
> to read if it actually takes up the full width there.  Sender-wrapped or
> format=flowed (which mutt renders quite nicely by default these days)
> works well for me as a receiver; unwrapped doesn't really.

My two cents, for what it's worth: I had the exact same problem as you
when it came to difficulty reading unwrapped text... in the Gmail
webmail client. If something is hard to read both with your "dinosaur
setup" (as you call it) and my arguably hyper-modern setup, I think it's
probably a problem.

--
Aaron

> This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my
> mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's
> somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of dinosaur
> setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the last time I
> looked at this eons ago.  I needed this in ~/.config/nvim/init.vim
> (should also work in ~/.vimrc):
>
>    au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w
>
> And this in ~/.muttrc:
>
>    set text_flowed
>
> That seems to work pretty well.  I reflowed the parts of your message
> that I quoted here to match.
>
> --
> Colin Watson (he/him)                              [cjwatson@debian.org]
>

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#116056

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On 2025-02-27 13:29:59 +0000 (+0000), Colin Watson wrote:
[...]
>I mostly read email in mutt in 
>a tmux shared with my IRC client, so I normally prefer to keep that 
>window fully maximized for the benefit of IRC, but email tends to be a 
>bit hard to read if it actually takes up the full width there.  
>Sender-wrapped or format=flowed (which mutt renders quite nicely by 
>default these days) works well for me as a receiver; unwrapped doesn't 
>really.
>
>This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my 
>mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's 
>somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of 
>dinosaur setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the 
>last time I looked at this eons ago.  I needed this in 
>~/.config/nvim/init.vim (should also work in ~/.vimrc):
>
>  au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w
>
>And this in ~/.muttrc:
>
>  set text_flowed
>
>That seems to work pretty well.
[...]

Thanks for the config details! Turns out we use basically the same 
workflow (I run Mutt with vim as my message composer along several 
other console-based client apps, including but not limited to IRC, 
in persistent tmux session on a remote cloud VM), so this was 
extremely helpful for me as well.

I'm composing and sending this with your suggestions applied, seems 
to be working well so far. Thanks again!
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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#116059

On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 1:29 PM GMT, Colin Watson wrote:
> And this in ~/.muttrc:
>
>    set text_flowed
>
> That seems to work pretty well.  I reflowed the parts of your message 
> that I quoted here to match.

If you happen to use edit_headers, you *might* want something like this 
(no idea if mutt has adopted it yet, ensures no trailing space on empty 
header lines):

https://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/pull/1164


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#116064

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 03:53:41PM +0000, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 1:29 PM GMT, Colin Watson wrote:
>>And this in ~/.muttrc:
>>
>>   set text_flowed
>>
>>That seems to work pretty well.  I reflowed the parts of your 
>>message that I quoted here to match.
>
>If you happen to use edit_headers, you *might* want something like 
>this (no idea if mutt has adopted it yet, ensures no trailing space on 
>empty header lines):
>
>https://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/pull/1164

Doesn't affect me as I don't use formatoptions=a, but good to be 
forewarned about, thanks!

-- 
Colin Watson (he/him)                              [cjwatson@debian.org]

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#116065

At 15:53 +0000 27 Feb 2025, Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
>If you happen to use edit_headers, you *might* want something like this 
>(no idea if mutt has adopted it yet, ensures no trailing space on empty 
>header lines):
>
>https://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/pull/1164

That PR shows as being merged several years ago. I'd supplied a similar 
patch for the original mutt as well, but had that rejected. After that I 
handled it in my vim by adding the following to 
~/.vim/ftplugin/mail.vim:

setlocal formatoptions+=rawn2
autocmd CursorMoved,CursorMovedI <buffer> call autoformat#mail()

The function called there is defined in https://github.com/aschrab/dotfiles/blob/master/vim/autoload/autoformat.vim
It takes care of removing the `a` and `w` options from `formatoptions` 
while in the header area.

Looks like I've been using that for ~13 years now, and I don't recall 
having any issues with it.

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#116066

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On 2025-02-27 13:29 +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
> > The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails
> > should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

I admire your gumption for making such a proposal. :-)

A few years ago I would have objected strenously, as mutt+jed did not deal
well with long lines, and it was a pain to read. I have even been
known to berate people sending me such email.

However it seems to work fine these days so whilst long lines are harder to read, it's not a big deal.

I too am using the 'mutt in tmux/mosh on a remote machine' method to
read my mail. (I do really like the smart reflowing that emacs can do,
even with indented mails). The biggest problem with this method these
days is not text wraping, but enormously long multiline URLs,
especially when buried in incomprehensible modern HTML, and multipart
mails whern the text/plain part is actually just another copy of the
bloody HTML part - an infuriating thing that is becoming more common).

I know that others can find wrapped text difficult to deal with
because they are just not used to it these days. If you send an
article in in that form, it is likely to retain unwanted wrapping
linefeeds in the final version because taking them all out is hard for
normals (they just do it by hand in word/indesign/whatever and miss
the ones that happen to align linewraps)..

And in-line answered mail with indenting carets can also end up as
completely mashed garbage all flowed onto one big para at the far end
which is very hard indeed to read. This is other people's crappy
tools, but if one can make allowance for that without too much trouble
them one should.

So another vote for text=flowed here as a recommended default. And if
people want to use unwrapped lines, then I won't exactly like it, but
I'll manage. I already do for quite a lot of email.

> This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my mailer to
> send format=flowed,

This is probably the most useful email in the thread. Cheers.
I have added
 set text_flowed
to my mutt
but I think I need to know the  equivalent to
 au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w
for
emacs particularly, but also zile, jed and mcedit (all of which get used from time to time).
Anyone know?

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Debian, Wookware
http://wookware.org/

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#116069

Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> writes:

> but I think I need to know the  equivalent to 
>  au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w 
> for emacs particularly, but also zile, jed and mcedit (all of 
> which get used from time to time).  Anyone know?

Set `use-hard-newlines' for emacs, according to 
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=36821#8

Looks like there is a use-hard-newlines function to toggle the 
setting in the current buffer.  Let's test...



Bjørn

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#116495

Hi!

On Thu, 2025-02-27 at 13:29:59 +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my
> mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's
> somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of
> dinosaur setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the
> last time I looked at this eons ago.  I needed this in
> ~/.config/nvim/init.vim (should also work in ~/.vimrc):
> 
>  au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w
> 
> And this in ~/.muttrc:
> 
>  set text_flowed
> 
> That seems to work pretty well.  I reflowed the parts of your
> message that I quoted here to match.

Thanks! I tried this when you posted it and it worked fine when sending
original mails, but I then noticed when editing a reply, it mangled
the quoting by removing all spaces between the quoting markers (">"),
which briefly checking now seems to be working as specified in the RFC,
such as:

   # On time+3, Carol wrote:
   # >On time+2, Bob wrote:
   # >>On time+1, Alice wrote:
   # >>>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or 
   # >>>so, continued.
   # >>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
   # >>continued.
   # >Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
   # >continued.
   # Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
   # continued.

Which I find to be very annoying and hard to read from my editor (vim).
And checking how this is shown now in mutt (before sending), with
text_flowed disabled, but reflow_text enabled, indicates to me the
mangling is worse than I thought, but perhaps it's just reflow_text being
applied to a text that is not yet sent and will not be format=flowed,
thus should not really be applied to, otherwise you might need to check
the raw text of the mail. :/

So I've since disabled text_flowed=yes again. If someone knows of a way
to avoid this mangling that mutt does for the file to be edited, I might
reconsider enabling it, but otherwise this looks like a blocker to me.
I'm also concerned with the disparity between the presented text and
the sent text, which I guess could also affect inlined patches or similar
text that should not be mangled? (But at this point I've not tried
experimenting further with that, as it seems not worth the effort, given
the above.)

My muttrc config was:

   set text_flowed=yes
   set reflow_text=yes
   set reflow_wrap=70
   set reflow_space_quotes=yes

My vimrc config was:

   autocmd FileType mail  setlocal spell textwidth=70 formatoptions+=w

Thanks,
Guillem

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#116497

Hi!

On Sun, 2025-03-16 at 18:18:58 +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
> […]
> such as:
> 
>   # On time+3, Carol wrote:
>   # >On time+2, Bob wrote:
>   # >>On time+1, Alice wrote:
>   # >>>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or 
>   # >>>so, continued.
>   # >>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
>   # >>continued.
>   # >Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
>   # >continued.
>   # Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so, 
>   # continued.

> Which I find to be very annoying and hard to read from my editor (vim).
> And checking how this is shown now in mutt (before sending), with
> text_flowed disabled, but reflow_text enabled, indicates to me the
> mangling is worse than I thought, but perhaps it's just reflow_text being
> applied to a text that is not yet sent and will not be format=flowed,
> thus should not really be applied to, otherwise you might need to check
> the raw text of the mail. :/

Ah, sorry, it looks like I started drafting that reply with
text_flowed enabled, and that was preserved after postponing and
continuing with a new mutt session with the option disabled. (Hopefully
the example is seen correctly now.)

Thanks,
Guillem

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