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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #117485 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200 |
| Last post | 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 148 — 37 participants |
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New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 11:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-05-30 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
Re: Re: New contributor experience Antoine Le Gonidec <debian@vv221.fr> - 2025-05-30 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 16:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 17:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 19:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-05-30 21:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-31 00:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-05-31 07:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Fabio Fantoni <fantonifabio@tiscali.it> - 2025-05-31 11:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-01 22:40 +0200
Re: Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-02 11:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 14:50 +0200
Re: "People can't be bothered" (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-05 07:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-06 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-06 20:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 16:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 00:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 01:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-08 11:00 +0200
Re: Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-11 00:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2025-06-11 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200
apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience James McCoy <jamessan@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-14 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 19:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 00:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 08:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 14:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-20 16:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 19:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 21:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-21 22:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 23:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Mechtilde Stehmann <mechtilde@debian.org> - 2025-06-22 08:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-24 22:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 11:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 16:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-23 19:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re: New contributor experience) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Page 5 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KWzsJ-9SPQ-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117658 |
Hi, > > As a very new contributor to Debian as part of the Google Summer of Code > > (GSoC) '25 program I can only second Andreas' point. Packages / package > > teams who are willing/have the bandwith to mentor newcomers are most > > certainly a great starting point for newbies. Is there an easy way to > > find those mentorship opportunities in Debian (outside of dedicated > > programs like GSoC)? IMHO these should be "advertised" to newcomers. > > > > I have started a new wiki page for this purpose > > https://wiki.debian.org/Newcomers All teams can and should welcome and mentor newcomers. I understand why you started this list, but I am concerned that if you don't list all teams there, you might be discouraging new contributors from approaching some teams. Coul d you just replace the idea of listing teams with a link to all mailing lists, and suggesting new contributors to speak up on a list to see who is available to help them? Also we already have a bunch of content at https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and https://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint. I'd rather see those pages polished than yet another new page pop up to add to burden of documentation new people need to wade through.. - Otto
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| From | IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KWT85-a5x8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117660 |
Am 11. Juni 2025 21:31:53 MESZ schrieb "Otto Kekäläinen" <otto@debian.org>: > >> >> I have started a new wiki page for this purpose >> >> https://wiki.debian.org/Newcomers > >All teams can and should welcome and mentor newcomers that sounds nice. however, I'm afraid that in practice the "can [...] mentor newcomers" is a bit optimistic (at least if "can" means "have the bandwidth to") eg the multimedia team (which I'm a proud member of) is really not very much of a "team" (with people working *together* on a bunch of packages), at least in my impression (which might be totally off). in practice, it is more of a "lowNMU" team, and that's it. I don't really see how there would be enough bandwidth to do actual mentoring and stuff. other people might have similar experiences with other teams. so probably the wiki page should mention "all" the various teams (with links), telling people that they can/should/... contact them; but still have a curated list of "best practice" teams, that feel like they can invest significantly on mentoring. mfh.her.fsr IOhannes
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| From | Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KXa8W-agjv-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117667 |
Am Donnerstag, dem 12.06.2025 um 18:15 +0200 schrieb IOhannes m zmölnig: > eg the multimedia team (which I'm a proud member of) is really not very much of a "team" (with people working *together* on a bunch of packages), at least in my impression (which might be totally off). > in practice, it is more of a "lowNMU" team, and that's it. > I don't really see how there would be enough bandwidth to do actual mentoring and stuff. > > other people might have similar experiences with other teams. Confirmed. The expectations concerning the meaning of the word "team" when coming from paid work are misleading. Sincerely, Joachim -- Papier ist gebundenes CO2. Bitte drucken Sie diese EMail aus und archivieren Sie sie.
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| From | Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KX5Ch-aduY-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117660 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ already says: "As a prospective developer, you should also subscribe to debian-mentors. Here you can ask questions about packaging and infrastructure projects as well as other developer-related issues. Please note that this list is meant for new contributors, not users." Inversely this also means that potential mentors should be on that list. Adding more places to track isn't necessarily useful and in worst case counterproductive for both mentors and mentees.
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTZjH-8c4J-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117589 |
Hi, On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 06:22:49PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >I suggest to instead more narrowly guide them towards *recent* *RFP* >bugreports rather than WNPP bugreports in general. > >It will not surprise me if some newcomers find recent RFP bugreports a >total waste of their time, but I know from experience that some do not. Maintaining a package is a significant commitment. I'd prefer newcomers to fix bugs instead. There it doesnt hurt when they vanish after a few months. And, when you "just" fix bugs, you don't have to the next frustrating threadmill that we offer: looking for a sponsor. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTZWp-8cBS-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117592 |
On 04/06/2025 17:34, Marc Haber wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 06:22:49PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> I suggest to instead more narrowly guide them towards *recent* *RFP* >> bugreports rather than WNPP bugreports in general. >> >> It will not surprise me if some newcomers find recent RFP bugreports a >> total waste of their time, but I know from experience that some do not. > > Maintaining a package is a significant commitment. I'd prefer newcomers > to fix bugs instead. There it doesnt hurt when they vanish after a few > months. > > And, when you "just" fix bugs, you don't have to the next frustrating > threadmill that we offer: looking for a sponsor. What does this line mean? -- Regards, Ahmad
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| From | Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KU065-8cF6-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117595 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 06:13:57PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote: >>And, when you "just" fix bugs, you don't have to the next >>frustrating threadmill that we offer: looking for a sponsor. > >What does this line mean? That getting a sponsor as a new contributor, especially for a new package, is frustrating and often very long. -- WBR, wRAR
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KU0fL-8cIB-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117596 |
On 04/06/2025 18:28, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 06:13:57PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote: >>> And, when you "just" fix bugs, you don't have to the next frustrating >>> threadmill that we offer: looking for a sponsor. >> >> What does this line mean? > > That getting a sponsor as a new contributor, especially for a new > package, is frustrating and often very long. I see. Thanks. But at least with that, I've seen Phil send out a summary email and try to promote packages from mentors on debian-devel. Most get sponsored even if the wait is looong. PS, mentors.d.n has a 20-week timeout and it removes the package (hint). (And I'll stop talking about timeouts now) -- Regards, Ahmad
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| From | Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KV47D-8UP1-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117592 |
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025, Marc Haber wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 06:22:49PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> I suggest to instead more narrowly guide them towards *recent* *RFP* >> bugreports rather than WNPP bugreports in general. >> >> It will not surprise me if some newcomers find recent RFP bugreports a >> total waste of their time, but I know from experience that some do not. > > Maintaining a package is a significant commitment. I'd prefer newcomers to > fix bugs instead. There it doesnt hurt when they vanish after a few months. > > And, when you "just" fix bugs, you don't have to the next frustrating > threadmill that we offer: looking for a sponsor. > Although just fixing bugs has its own frustrations. I mostly used to write "works for me" fixes and now I look to submitting to upstream first and go to the BTS if I can't quickly see how to open a bug/MR upstream. There's a patch for apt-cacher-ng for a multi-year old bug that I know is in use in at least three large deployments due to private emails. The patch could do with some TLC, the comments in particular reflect my journey of understanding rather than the final state, and had I got prompt feedback I'd have done that work but a year plus later I'd have to spend time reminding myself just what was going on - at this point anyone is as well placed as me to do that cleanup - and I'm not sure I'd bother, if there's ever a new release I'll get an alert and if there isn't well "it works for me". The BTS doesn't help either, that bug I was subscribed to, but I never got any notification of the most recent comments (which turned out to be noise anyway) A while back I fixed a number of FTBFS and usr-merge bugs in packages I care about. Those were merged, but as NMU which I found out by accident when I went looking at what was going on months later. TBH I was thinking "why bother?" although actually it should have been a positive experience. I'm not sure if I would want to be a Debian Developer. There's another package that now has fixes of mine I need upstream and the temptation to "fix" the debian package with a silent maintainer would be difficult to resist but spending hours reading documentation on how to do this officially would feel annoying when I already have a working and deployed package locally. I do have dreams of winding down my paid work and having more time for open source, and maybe I'll hope to be more than a drive-by contributor, but most of my 'Debian' time right now is making sure I'm not dependent on debian for fixes while still taking advantage of all the great work that does happen.
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| From | Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KV4hk-8V8H-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117637 |
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On Sat, Jun 07, 2025 at 03:46:48PM +0000, Tim Woodall wrote: >>Maintaining a package is a significant commitment. I'd prefer >>newcomers to fix bugs instead. There it doesnt hurt when they vanish >>after a few months. >> >>And, when you "just" fix bugs, you don't have to the next >>frustrating threadmill that we offer: looking for a sponsor. >> >Although just fixing bugs has its own frustrations. > >I mostly used to write "works for me" fixes and now I look to >submitting to upstream first and go to the BTS if I can't quickly see >how to open a bug/MR upstream. Good, sending patches for upstream bugs upstream is always encouraged by Debian. >There's a patch for apt-cacher-ng for a multi-year old bug that I know >is in use in at least three large deployments due to private emails. >The patch could do with some TLC, the comments in particular reflect >my journey of understanding rather than the final state, and had I got >prompt feedback I'd have done that work but a year plus later I'd have >to spend time reminding myself just what was going on - at this point >anyone is as well placed as me to do that cleanup - and I'm not sure >I'd bother, if there's ever a new release I'll get an alert and if >there isn't well "it works for me". apt-cacher-ng is simply almost dead upstream/unmaintained, having just one release/maintainer upload since 2021 and many open bugs, including several very well known problems affecting many people. >A while back I fixed a number of FTBFS and usr-merge bugs in packages >I care about. Those were merged, but as NMU which I found out by >accident when I went looking at what was going on months later. TBH I >was thinking "why bother?" although actually it should have been a >positive experience. Not sure if this describes some problem or not. > spending hours reading documentation on how to >do this officially would feel annoying when I already have a working >and deployed package locally. Makes sense. -- WBR, wRAR
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200 |
| Subject | apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) |
| Message-ID | <KV8NX-8XUY-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117638 |
Hi, On Sat, Jun 07, 2025 at 09:08:50PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > apt-cacher-ng is simply almost dead upstream/unmaintained, having just one > release/maintainer upload since 2021 and many open bugs, including several > very well known problems affecting many people. What are people using instead of apt-cacher-ng if I may ask? I've been using it for more than 10 years but the problems I have encountered since upgrading to its bookworm version have got a lot worse, including memory leaks, segfaults and clients that get stuck endlessly after doing an "apt update". I too had got the impression that it was basically dead and have been wondering what to replace it with. Just a general purpose caching HTTP proxy? Thanks, Andy
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| From | "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) |
| Message-ID | <KV97j-8Yhz-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117639 |
Hi, On Sat Jun 7, 2025 at 10:38 PM CEST, Andy Smith wrote: > On Sat, Jun 07, 2025 at 09:08:50PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: >> apt-cacher-ng is simply almost dead upstream/unmaintained, having just one >> release/maintainer upload since 2021 and many open bugs, including several >> very well known problems affecting many people. > > What are people using instead of apt-cacher-ng if I may ask? I've started using squid-deb-proxy [1] after seeing it mentioned in the apt documentation [2]. Unfortunately, it got removed from the archive a while back [3]. It still works better then apt-cacher-ng for me :) [1]: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/squid-deb-proxy [2]: https://manpages.debian.org/testing/apt/apt-transport-http.1.en.html [3]: https://bugs.debian.org/1081589
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| From | Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) |
| Message-ID | <KV9gZ-8Yl7-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117639 |
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Hi, I became Fedora/Redhat maintainer for this to revive it a bit and have a more efficient to feed the Debian nodes. It annoys our "security" team at work who sees plain http traffic. (No they don't know what gpg means) In https mode from my understanding there is no caching at all which defeats the purpose. I m tempted to put an nginx in front of it or drop the ball and go for the company-approved Nexus. Nexus has an open core model and maybe they are trying to do too much (.rpm, .deb, pypi...) without enough depth. Greetings Alexandre Le sam. 7 juin 2025, 22:55, Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> a écrit : > Hi, > > What are people using instead of apt-cacher-ng if I may ask? > > Just a general purpose caching HTTP proxy? > > Thanks, > Andy > >
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| From | Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) |
| Message-ID | <KVdaV-90Lu-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117639 |
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On Sat, Jun 07, 2025 at 08:38:09PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > Hi, > > On Sat, Jun 07, 2025 at 09:08:50PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > > apt-cacher-ng is simply almost dead upstream/unmaintained, having just one > > release/maintainer upload since 2021 and many open bugs, including several > > very well known problems affecting many people. > > What are people using instead of apt-cacher-ng if I may ask? > > I've been using it for more than 10 years but the problems I have > encountered since upgrading to its bookworm version have got a lot > worse, including memory leaks, segfaults and clients that get stuck > endlessly after doing an "apt update". I too had got the impression that > it was basically dead and have been wondering what to replace it with. > > Just a general purpose caching HTTP proxy? I've been using approx for... I don't know, maybe fifteen years or something? It has always worked mostly fine for me, and its files layout makes it easy for me to remove a file or two when I've pushed something to one of my own repos so that the clients will notice at once. The only problem I've had with it in the past years was that the approx-gc tool went away at some point; actually it was just about a week ago that I finally decided to go ahead and write my own tool for doing that; it has not been released yet (I'm still working out a couple of kinks in a couple of other Rust crates that I wrote specifically for it), but if anyone with a recent Rust compiler (yeah, sorry, even the one in Trixie-to-be won't quite do) wants to give it a go, it's at https://gitlab.com/ppentchev/unref-files I still have to write some usage documentation, but generally `unref-files [-d] [-v] approx find [--delete]` is all that is supported for now. G'luck, Peter -- Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@debian.org peter@morpheusly.com PGP key: https://www.ringlet.net/roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115 C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTZ0l-8bTn-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117579 |
On 04/06/2025 16:31, Russ Allbery wrote: > Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> writes: > >> Joachim was mislead by an RFH. Even raised an MR and still got ignored. >> I replied to an RFH bug, got ignored. Raised an MR and still got ignored >> (my MR is only 5 months old, maybe still hope?). > > The most common (not the only) reason why packages file an RFH bug, in my > experience, is that they are overwhelmed and unable to keep up with the > packaging, which unfortunately is the same state that will lead them to > not responed to MRs. Unfortunately, often the ideal response to an RFH bug > is for an experienced Debian maintainer who wouldn't require much > assistance to offer to be co-maintainer directly. It's hard for a newcomer > to offer that type of help, through absolutely no fault of the newcomer. > > Often RFH bugs are not filed until the situation is already dire and the > existing maintainers may not be able to mentor newcomers or perform a > clean handoff to anyone other than an experienced Debian developer. This > is very much not ideal, and I wish this were not the case, but I suspect > that means that, at the moment, RFH is more useful as a flag for > experienced developers, and newcomers will find it easier to contribute to > packages that, paradoxically, are not tagged as needing help. But something has to break the cycle. There is no daily standup or a project manager to come in and ask for updates here :) Debian has the RFA process, orphaning, submitting another RFH, etc... I don't know, but seems no one wants to solve this and the status quo is fantastic as it is. -- Regards, Ahmad
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTZa1-8bYN-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117587 |
Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> writes: > But something has to break the cycle. There is no daily standup or a > project manager to come in and ask for updates here :) > Debian has the RFA process, orphaning, submitting another RFH, etc... > I don't know, but seems no one wants to solve this and the status quo is > fantastic as it is. I think you are reading lack of interest or opposition into a situation where the primary problem is lack of resources. I would love to solve this. I do not like the status quo. I certainly don't think the status quo is fantastic. I'm also massively behind on the packages that I already agreed to be responsible for and other Debian work that I am supposed to be doing, and given that my day job exhausts nearly all of my available energy for high-interaction discussions, I don't have the bandwidth to mentor newcomers. I suspect this is a very common problem among experienced Debian maintainers. This says bad things about the project's sustainability and I think everyone knows that. No one thinks the situation is good. But knowing that things need to improve does not create the time and energy required to improve them; in fact, in my experience, it sadly often does the opposite. It's a trap and I'm not sure how to get out of it, but the problem isn't lack of caring. It's that we have to figure out a way to get out of the trap without piling more work on people who can't handle more and will start dropping even more things if people insist. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTZWp-8cBS-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117588 |
On 04/06/2025 17:26, Russ Allbery wrote: > Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> writes: > >> But something has to break the cycle. There is no daily standup or a >> project manager to come in and ask for updates here :) > >> Debian has the RFA process, orphaning, submitting another RFH, etc... > >> I don't know, but seems no one wants to solve this and the status quo is >> fantastic as it is. > > I think you are reading lack of interest or opposition into a situation > where the primary problem is lack of resources. No, I understand the below paragraph about running out of energy. And I do appreciate you taking the time with your analysis here. I just thought there would have been a much higher willingness to discuss how to improve things. I was wrong. > I would love to solve this. I do not like the status quo. I certainly > don't think the status quo is fantastic. I'm also massively behind on the > packages that I already agreed to be responsible for and other Debian work > that I am supposed to be doing, and given that my day job exhausts nearly > all of my available energy for high-interaction discussions, I don't have > the bandwidth to mentor newcomers. I suspect this is a very common problem > among experienced Debian maintainers. > > This says bad things about the project's sustainability and I think > everyone knows that. No one thinks the situation is good. But knowing that > things need to improve does not create the time and energy required to > improve them; in fact, in my experience, it sadly often does the opposite. > > It's a trap and I'm not sure how to get out of it, but the problem isn't > lack of caring. It's that we have to figure out a way to get out of the > trap without piling more work on people who can't handle more and will > start dropping even more things if people insist. This is not different from other projects, except that debian has a lower percentage of paid contributors. They all solve it by prioritising important things, dropping less important things, etc... I don't like it, but reality! Basic prioritisation is where the idea of timing out older WNPP issues comes from. The other point is that if debian can't handle its current workload, why is debian inviting people to package 20 year old projects that don't even have an upstream page. Anyway, I learned to ignore most WNPP pages now. -- Regards, Ahmad
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KU0pr-8cN1-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117594 |
Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> writes: > I just thought there would have been a much higher willingness to > discuss how to improve things. I was wrong. Sorry, yes, Debian discussions around workflow are often frustrating because part of the discussion is usually at least a mild request for existing maintainers to change their current workflows, and when people feel overwhelmed, changing workflows often feels particularly draining. Sometimes we manage to steer the discussion away from existing maintainers changing how they currently do things towards creating recommended best practices for *new* maintainers, and those are often less fraught. My personal experience in Debian is that the best workflow discussions often happen inside packaging groups where the shared problems are of more limited scope and more immediately concrete and where often there is more of a general consensus about desired directions. Debian-wide workflow discussions are quite challenging because there is such a huge diversity of opinion and practice. I think there *is* willingness to have the discussion but I think it's fair to say that it is lower than one might expect coming in from outside, at least in debian-devel. It's one of the places in Debian where I think it's often better to find a group of likeminded people and just do a thing for the packages that you collectively maintain, sort out the various issues, and then write it up. > This is not different from other projects, except that debian has a > lower percentage of paid contributors. They all solve it by prioritising > important things, dropping less important things, etc... I don't like > it, but reality! > Basic prioritisation is where the idea of timing out older WNPP issues > comes from. I think the problem you're running into there is that people perceive closing old WNPP issues as making the information in them disappear. I'm not sure that's quite accurate, but it certainly makes it much harder to find. The currently system serves one use case (please show me all previous discussions about packaging this software) at the cost of another use case (show me things that are currently being worked on). An ideal system would serve both use cases. > The other point is that if debian can't handle its current workload, why > is debian inviting people to package 20 year old projects that don't > even have an upstream page. > Anyway, I learned to ignore most WNPP pages now. Indeed, you have now reached the same point that I suspect 95% of Debian maintainers are at: ignoring WNPP other than filing ITP bugs when we package new packages. This is not great! I think it would be fantastic if someone tackled fixing the WNPP system, but I'm not sure just closing old issues would make the difference you're hoping for because people still aren't looking at it. I think it requires a bit of a rethink about what it's actually for, which I suspect is much less about requesting people package things and more about maintaining a persistent database of work in progress and work previously considered that was never finished for some reason. The one part of WNPP that I think is useful in the obvious way for what it was intended to be useful for, and which I think is even useful for newcomers, is the O bugs. Adopting orphaned software is often a good way to get started in Debian if you are (like me) someone who learns better when starting with something that's already working but flawed, rather than starting from scratch on new work. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KU1vb-8dt2-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117599 |
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On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 10:47:35AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >I think the problem you're running into there is that people perceive >closing old WNPP issues as making the information in them disappear. I'm >not sure that's quite accurate, but it certainly makes it much harder to >find. Not much, in my experience, because the only reliable way to find WNPP bugs for given software is, in my experience, Google. -- WBR, wRAR
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| From | Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KUgXf-8p2q-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117601 |
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On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 11:51:37PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > Not much, in my experience, because the only reliable way to find WNPP bugs > for given software is, in my experience, Google. And soon it will be s#Google#AI#. I think this tells more about you than about Debian or WNPP bugs. -- cheers, Holger ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C ⠈⠳⣄ No more excuses. Small actions can make a big difference. We recently switched to paper straws on both of my private jets. (@lcamtuf)
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