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Re: lintian.debian.org off ?

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  Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nicolas Peugnet <nicolas@club1.fr> - 2024-08-07 19:40 +0200
    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Bastien Roucariès <rouca@debian.org> - 2024-08-08 20:50 +0200
      Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-08-09 09:00 +0200
        Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Bastien Roucariès <rouca@debian.org> - 2024-08-09 10:00 +0200
          Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-08-09 14:20 +0200
            Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Bastien Roucariès <rouca@debian.org> - 2024-08-09 15:30 +0200
      Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nicolas Peugnet <nicolas@club1.fr> - 2024-08-15 10:30 +0200
    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-08-09 09:00 +0200
      Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nicolas Peugnet <nicolas@club1.fr> - 2024-08-09 13:40 +0200
        Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-08-09 14:20 +0200
        Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-08-10 07:40 +0200
          Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-08-11 18:40 +0200
        Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2024-09-02 04:00 +0200
          Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nilesh Patra <nilesh@riseup.net> - 2024-09-02 07:30 +0200
          Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nicolas Peugnet <nicolas@club1.fr> - 2024-09-02 17:10 +0200
            Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-09-02 19:30 +0200
              Re: lintian.debian.org off ? "Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas" <sez@debian.org> - 2024-09-02 21:20 +0200
            Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2024-09-03 18:50 +0200
              Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nicolas Peugnet <nicolas@club1.fr> - 2024-09-03 19:00 +0200
              Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-09-03 20:10 +0200
                Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-09-03 21:20 +0200
                Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Nicolas Peugnet <nicolas@club1.fr> - 2024-09-03 23:10 +0200
                Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2024-09-03 23:20 +0200
                  Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2024-09-04 08:30 +0200
                    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2024-09-04 08:40 +0200
                      Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2024-09-04 22:50 +0200
                    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-09-04 09:10 +0200
                    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-09-04 09:40 +0200
                      Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2024-09-04 23:00 +0200
                        Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2024-09-20 17:00 +0200
                          Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2024-09-20 17:10 +0200
                            Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2024-09-20 17:50 +0200
                              Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-09-20 23:50 +0200
                                Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Andreas Tille <tille@debian.org> - 2024-09-21 12:30 +0200
                            Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2024-09-20 18:00 +0200
                            Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-10-24 22:30 +0200
                    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? "Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas" <sez@debian.org> - 2024-09-04 21:40 +0200
                      sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re:  lintian.debian.org off ?) "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 17:10 +0200
                        Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re:  lintian.debian.org off ?) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 18:00 +0200
                        Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re:  lintian.debian.org off ?) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 19:30 +0200
                        Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re:  lintian.debian.org off ?) thomas@goirand.fr - 2024-09-22 20:00 +0200
                        Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re:  lintian.debian.org off ?) "Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas" <sez@debian.org> - 2024-09-25 12:10 +0200
                          Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re:  lintian.debian.org off ?) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2024-09-25 16:50 +0200
                    Re: lintian.debian.org off ? Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-09-21 15:00 +0200

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#113454 — Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re: lintian.debian.org off ?)

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On Sep 22, 2024 5:05 PM, Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:

>

> On Wed Sep 4, 2024 at 8:33 PM BST, Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas 

> Or maybe the issue isn't difficulty, but 

> that doing so is simply unattractive? 


Rewriting things just to change language is indeed unattractive.


> (Please, not Python :P) 


Why? If one looks at popularity, Python wins...


Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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#113506 — Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re: lintian.debian.org off ?)

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hi Jonathan,

On Sun Sep 22, 2024 at 5:05 PM CEST, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Wed Sep 4, 2024 at 8:33 PM BST, Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas wrote:
> > incidentally, lots of Debian native code is in perl, and like it or
> > not, we should allow for, or even encourage [0] (partial) rewrites if
> > we want to attract new contributors, especially below the average DD
> > age
>
> I have some sympathy with this idea, but I'd love to see a rigorous
> exploration of it. I probably fall on the greybeard side of the dividing
> line now, and my Perl is rusty (but not non-existent). Partly I wonder
> if we are underestimating younger folk by suggesting that grokking old
> stuff like Perl is Too Hard. Or maybe the issue isn't difficulty, but
> that doing so is simply unattractive?

it's popularity, not difficulty

> If we did have consensus that Perl should be retired, the question
> should be replaced *with what*? I'd be very surprised if we could get
> consensus on that; but I'd happily read people's suggestions. I guess
> you'd advocate for Rust or Go, based on your slide deck.

I see many people I admire here that are happy with perl, so going against perl
would make no sense to me. more generally, I'm pretty sure that any project-wide
conversation for or against any single language would be a waste of time, at
best

all I'm suggesting is for all of us to be open minded with people that want to
use languages that are not well-established in Debian native software

> What criteria are important for such a recommendation?

I'm not sure that we could converge on a recommendation, nor that it would be of
any use if we were to -- except perhaps in a team-local scope. fwiw, some ideas:

- popularity, accounting for fitness for purpose (e.g. no php and js, as
  mentioned elsewhere in this thread)
- readability
- maintainability

as an example, I've rewritten adequate(1) from perl to go. the perl version was
absolutely fine, I just couldn't see myself writing perl for fun in my free
time. and I feel more optimistic about finding co/new maintainers given that
it's in go

> (Please, not Python :P)

not a big fan either, but python scores pretty high in terms of the first two
criteria above

> Title: Rewrite in Golang/Rust BTW
>  * Rewrite the same thing using a different language OR...
>  * Start fresh with better defaults and UX

that pointer was to highlight that the idea of rewrites resonates with at
least one other DD, and less so about go/rust

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#113507 — Re: sensible languages for younger contributors (was Re: lintian.debian.org off ?)

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On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 12:00:47PM +0200, Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas wrote:
> hi Jonathan,
> 
> On Sun Sep 22, 2024 at 5:05 PM CEST, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > On Wed Sep 4, 2024 at 8:33 PM BST, Serafeim (Serafi) Zanikolas wrote:
> > > incidentally, lots of Debian native code is in perl, and like it or
> > > not, we should allow for, or even encourage [0] (partial) rewrites if
> > > we want to attract new contributors, especially below the average DD
> > > age
[snip]
> > What criteria are important for such a recommendation?
> 
> I'm not sure that we could converge on a recommendation, nor that it would be of
> any use if we were to -- except perhaps in a team-local scope. fwiw, some ideas:
> 
> - popularity, accounting for fitness for purpose (e.g. no php and js, as
>   mentioned elsewhere in this thread)
> - readability
> - maintainability
> 
> as an example, I've rewritten adequate(1) from perl to go. the perl version was
> absolutely fine, I just couldn't see myself writing perl for fun in my free
> time. and I feel more optimistic about finding co/new maintainers given that
> it's in go

In my personal experience, languages that either have built-in strong type
checking or have easy ways (and IMHO mypy invoked via Tox is easy) to run
a type checker lead to much more maintainable code over time, at the obvious
price of a bit more verbosity.

> > (Please, not Python :P)
> 
> not a big fan either, but python scores pretty high in terms of the first two
> criteria above

...so lately I have found that I never write new stuff in C and Perl,
preferring Rust and Python respectively.
(and yes, I know Raku has strong typing, and I do use it for some local
projects, but unfortunately I don't think it will ever gain the popularity
it deserves)

G'luck,
Peter

-- 
Peter Pentchev  roam@ringlet.net roam@debian.org peter@morpheusly.com
PGP key:        https://www.ringlet.net/roam/roam.key.asc
Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115  C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13

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#113438

Le Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 08:21:04AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit :
> After lintian.debian.org went unmaintained (beginning of 2022) and it
> was clear noone was going to adopt it, I worked on a UDD-backed
> replacement (in July 2022, see
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2022/07/msg00001.html and
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2022/07/msg00006.html ). Then I
> raised the question of the future of lintian.debian.org.
> 
> After providing stale data for a long time, which confused many people,
> lintian.debian.org was shutdown in September 2023.

Ah it is too bad I did not notice. I used to run my own
lintian lab instance.  I could have helped.

Cheers,
Bill.

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