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Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS

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  Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-07-18 19:20 +0200
    Re: Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-07-18 20:00 +0200
      Re: Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-07-18 23:10 +0200
        Re: Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-07-19 00:00 +0200
        Re: Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-07-19 01:20 +0200
          Re: Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS João Pirralha <joaopirralha@gmail.com> - 2020-07-19 01:40 +0200
        Re: Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-07-19 05:00 +0200

#6364 — Final CDs being written for Stretch - 9.13 release - prior to LTS

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As folk will be aware: we're building and releasing the final release of
Stretch before transition to LTS support. Testing is going well - there are
a couple of architectures that are built but not tested because the testers
have no hardware.

One set  is an old Mac on Intel media, the other is boot media for S390X.
Nobody has reported problems with these recently but it may be that nobody
is using them at all. If this is the case, these are prime candidates for
removal before Bullseye - Debian 11 - media preparation

Please shout: if we don't build media for obsolete hardware or machines
that nobody has, it makes the complex task of preparing media that much
simpler.

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#6365

Hi,

Andrew Cater wrote:
> [...] here are
> a couple of architectures that are built but not tested because the testers
> have no hardware.
> One set  is an old Mac on Intel media,

Do you mean these ?
  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/i386/iso-cd/debian-mac-10.4.0-i386-netinst.iso
  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-mac-10.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso

They are related to
  https://wiki.debian.org/MacMiniIntel#Macmini_1.2C1
and following sections.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it is not about above "mac" ISOs, which then ? I am curious.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#6366

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Thank you Thomas. Yes, that's obviously why it was done.So - a quick look
on Wikipedia suggests that this was a current machine in 2006 and was
replaced in 2007 / 2008. So - if anyone has one running anywhere, it's
somewhere between 12-15 years old. If anybody knows of any that they really
must keep running, speak now or forever hold your peace. It's probably time
for this to be dropped for Bullseye.

Separately, we also had a quick think about the numbers of iso images in
general. A suggestion: For the future, we should produce physical media for
the netinst.iso, the first DVD image in any set and one larger image to be
written to a USB stick if wanted - and corresponding source for each size.
All other .iso files to be distributed as .jigdo and .template files.In
most instances, the netinst is enough, if you have network connectivity and
bandwidth. The DVD is enough to install the basis of any of the graphical
environments readily. This does not mean that you couldn't produce every
other image - but very few people are on a desert island and need every
piece of software Debian has produced on physical media.  Producing every
disk in every size would still be possble but using jigdo as an
intermediate step. This would also mean dropping the single CD image that
installs the XFCE graphical environment but that's one tasksel selection
away anyway. This would ease the pressure on mirrors and the main
cdimage.debian.org server and make the task of testing significantly
simpler.

New users find it difficult to work out why there should be so many DVDs
and whether they need to download them all even though only one is
bootable. Anything we can do to make our collective lives easier is a
bonus, given the size of the team. Thoughts?



On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 5:55 PM Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Andrew Cater wrote:
> > [...] here are
> > a couple of architectures that are built but not tested because the
> testers
> > have no hardware.
> > One set  is an old Mac on Intel media,
>
> Do you mean these ?
>
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/i386/iso-cd/debian-mac-10.4.0-i386-netinst.iso
>
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-mac-10.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>
> They are related to
>   https://wiki.debian.org/MacMiniIntel#Macmini_1.2C1
> and following sections.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If it is not about above "mac" ISOs, which then ? I am curious.
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>

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#6370

Hi,

Andrew Cater wrote:
> If anybody knows of any [Mac Mini] that they really must keep
> running, speak now or forever hold your peace.

It is possible to create an ISO without EFI boot lures from a normal
i386 or amd64 ISO.
Follow
  https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO
but leave out the options beginning with
  -eltorito-alt-boot

Others seem to have solved their mini mac problems similarly
  https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Remove_UEFI_boot_support_from_optical_media


> For the future, we should produce physical media for
> the netinst.iso, the first DVD image in any set and one larger image to be
> written to a USB stick if wanted - and corresponding source for each size.

A large image for USB stick or 25 GB Blu-ray would help those with
insufficient network access at installation time.


> All other .iso files to be distributed as .jigdo and .template files.

Most DVD images and images for all larger media are already only available
via .jigdo.

Jigdo's software status is healthy. But we need better documentation and more
advertising for it. How about a jigdo help file in the download directories
with .jigdo files, which tells how to get the download software and how to
use it.

Steve McIntyre offers binaries for MS-Windows and source at
  https://www.einval.com/~steve/software/jigdo/download/
I documented the endeavor of getting and booting a Debian Live for the
purpose of downloading jigdo ISOs in
  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive
(Still lacking knowledge about how to mount foreign OS disks for writing.)
Then there is
  https://www.debian.org/CD/jigdo-cd/
We could need a list of distros and names of their packages which contain
jigdo-lite.

This all should be mashed up and condensed to a tangible description what
to do with the presented .jigdo and .template files.


There is also the fact that due to network and server latency the download
on a fast internet connection via jigdo is much slower than direct download
via HTTPS.
(Netinst installation might have the same drawbacks. How much faster is
 installation from a 32 GB USB stick in comparison to netinst ?)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#6372

Andrew Cater wrote: 
> Separately, we also had a quick think about the numbers of iso images in
> general. A suggestion: For the future, we should produce physical media for
> the netinst.iso, the first DVD image in any set and one larger image to be
> written to a USB stick if wanted - and corresponding source for each size.
> All other .iso files to be distributed as .jigdo and .template files.In
> most instances, the netinst is enough, if you have network connectivity and
> bandwidth. The DVD is enough to install the basis of any of the graphical
> environments readily. This does not mean that you couldn't produce every
> other image - but very few people are on a desert island and need every
> piece of software Debian has produced on physical media.


At this point in 2020, I think it would be reasonable to only produce
netinst images and jigdo (and live, but that's a different-ish
project). Drop the DVD images.

All of my installs in the last six years have either been via a
USB netinst image or PXE. New laptops and desktops are generally
shipping without optical drives at all. My oldest non-toy
hardware can boot via USB. 

-dsr-

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#6373

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I'm just a user, but:

  * I disagree with dropping the first 4GB "DVD" install image, I think
    it's quite useful (although you might just name it "4GB" and drop
    the DVD naming). Users shouldn't need Internet to have a mostly
    functional system, and I cannot imagine they produce too much extra
    overhead to maintain compared to the netinst images for example.
  * I agree that non-install images (-*DVD-2, etc.) should be dropped.
    Users can use tools such as debmirror to easily create a local
    repository if they wish to.
  * I know this is somewhat controversial, but images with non-free
    firmware are also quite important in practice. I suggest to also
    produce a 16GB image with non-free firmware.
  * 16GB is a common size for cheap USB drives nowadays, so I think 4GB
    and 16GB would be good sizes for these offline images.

Thank you.


Às 23:48 de 18/07/20, Dan Ritter escreveu:
> Andrew Cater wrote:
>> Separately, we also had a quick think about the numbers of iso images in
>> general. A suggestion: For the future, we should produce physical media for
>> the netinst.iso, the first DVD image in any set and one larger image to be
>> written to a USB stick if wanted - and corresponding source for each size.
>> All other .iso files to be distributed as .jigdo and .template files.In
>> most instances, the netinst is enough, if you have network connectivity and
>> bandwidth. The DVD is enough to install the basis of any of the graphical
>> environments readily. This does not mean that you couldn't produce every
>> other image - but very few people are on a desert island and need every
>> piece of software Debian has produced on physical media.
>
> At this point in 2020, I think it would be reasonable to only produce
> netinst images and jigdo (and live, but that's a different-ish
> project). Drop the DVD images.
>
> All of my installs in the last six years have either been via a
> USB netinst image or PXE. New laptops and desktops are generally
> shipping without optical drives at all. My oldest non-toy
> hardware can boot via USB.
>
> -dsr-
>

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#6374

> Thank you Thomas. Yes, that's obviously why it was done.So - a quick look
> on Wikipedia suggests that this was a current machine in 2006 and was
> replaced in 2007 / 2008. So - if anyone has one running anywhere, it's
> somewhere between 12-15 years old. If anybody knows of any that they really
> must keep running, speak now or forever hold your peace. It's probably time
> for this to be dropped for Bullseye.

I have such a macmini-1,1 which I upgraded to macmini-2,1 (it's the same
hardware and the firmware upgrade was needed for one of the other
upgrades (can't remember if it was to bring up the RAM to 3GB or to
upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Duo)).

[ It's my office desktop, happily driving two 1600x1200 monitors (with
  a DVI-I => DVI-D + VGA splitter), something which Apple's own OS never
  bothered to support.  ]

But IIRC I install Debian on it by cloning some existing Debian root
filesystem directly onto the drive, rather than doing the "normal Debian
install".  So don't make those extra sets for me.


        Stefan

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