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How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies?

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  How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-01-12 12:42 +0200
    Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2021-01-12 22:47 +0000
      Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-01-13 13:22 +0200
    Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Giuseppe³ <miaooaimATtiscaliDOTit@xxx.xxx> - 2021-01-13 19:56 +0100
      Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Giuseppe³ <miaooaimATtiscaliDOTit@xxx.xxx> - 2021-01-13 20:01 +0100
        Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Giuseppe³ <miaooaimATtiscaliDOTit@xxx.xxx> - 2021-01-13 20:09 +0100
          Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-01-14 13:14 +0200
            Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Giuseppe³ <miaooaimATtiscaliDOTit@xxx.xxx> - 2021-01-14 19:40 +0100
              Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Dino.Baldi" <dino.baldi@gmail.com> - 2021-01-15 01:56 -0800
              Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-01-18 16:27 +0200
    Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Mike Garcia <mike@mgarcia.nospam> - 2021-01-18 10:47 +1100
      Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-01-18 16:28 +0200
      Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2021-01-18 22:28 +0000
        Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? Mike Garcia <mike@mgarcia.nospam> - 2021-01-18 23:30 +0000
          Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-01-27 14:10 +0200
            Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? MaveRick <computelico.erasami@gimeil.comm> - 2021-03-10 07:33 +0000
              Re: How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies? "Mantas" <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> - 2021-03-10 15:36 +0200

#53269 — How to backup ZX-Spectrum floppies?

I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like to 
make backups (if they are still readable).

I have a 386 with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 and if needed I can connect a 5,25" 
drive to WinXP computer.

How should I proceed without damaging the disks:

  1.. To make a RAW disk image (and later copy to another disk)

  2.. Browse the software/run on an emulator

Thanks!

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#53271

Mantas <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> wrote:
> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like to 
> make backups (if they are still readable).
> 
> I have a 386 with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 and if needed I can connect a 5,25" 
> drive to WinXP computer.

Are they 5.25" floppies?  Do you know how the drive was connected?

The only Spectrum with a floppy port was the +3.
There were third party interfaces that presumably had an FDC chip.

There was no common Spectrum DOS, so as I understood it every interface
manufacturer did their own thing, with their own on-disc format.  Apparently
TR-DOS was popular in the USSR.

My point being you need to know how the interface lays out the
tracks before you can image a floppy.

If it is TR-DOS, there are some tools to make images using a PC here:
https://speccy.xyz/trdos.html

Theo

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#53272

That's how they look: https://photos.app.goo.gl/BHWAm4bg484SWsRPA
Yes, they are 5,25".
The drive is integrated in the same case as ZX-Spectrum clone. The computer 
is working, but I want to backup the disks before trying anything.


"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message 
news:7ul*dN4-x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> Mantas <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> wrote:
>> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like 
>> to
>> make backups (if they are still readable).
>>
>> I have a 386 with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 and if needed I can connect a 5,25"
>> drive to WinXP computer.
>
> Are they 5.25" floppies?  Do you know how the drive was connected?
>
> The only Spectrum with a floppy port was the +3.
> There were third party interfaces that presumably had an FDC chip.
>
> There was no common Spectrum DOS, so as I understood it every interface
> manufacturer did their own thing, with their own on-disc format. 
> Apparently
> TR-DOS was popular in the USSR.
>
> My point being you need to know how the interface lays out the
> tracks before you can image a floppy.
>
> If it is TR-DOS, there are some tools to make images using a PC here:
> https://speccy.xyz/trdos.html
>
> Theo 

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#53273

Il 12/01/21 11:42, Mantas ha scritto:
> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like 
> to make backups (if they are still readable).
> 
> I have a 386 with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 and if needed I can connect a 
> 5,25" drive to WinXP computer.
> 
> How should I proceed without damaging the disks:
> 
>   1.. To make a RAW disk image (and later copy to another disk)

Using teledisk on a msdos computer and a 360K drive you can take the raw 
image og the disk and then create a copy.
Use only the copy into your computer and take the master copy in a safe 
place.

Regards
Giuseppe

> 
>   2.. Browse the software/run on an emulator
> 
> Thanks!
> 

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#53274

Il 13/01/21 19:56, Giuseppe³ ha scritto:
> Il 12/01/21 11:42, Mantas ha scritto:
>> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would 
>> like to make backups (if they are still readable).

I've take a look to the link and saw the disk photo.

A question is: Are these disk DS=Double side QD= Quad density???
I think that with a PC floppy drive you can only read Single or Double 
density (180/360K) or High density (1.2M).

Regards
Giuseppe

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#53275

Il 13/01/21 20:01, Giuseppe³ ha scritto:
> Il 13/01/21 19:56, Giuseppe³ ha scritto:
>> Il 12/01/21 11:42, Mantas ha scritto:
>>> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would 
>>> like to make backups (if they are still readable).
> 
> I've take a look to the link and saw the disk photo.
> 
> A question is: Are these disk DS=Double side QD= Quad density???
> I think that with a PC floppy drive you can only read Single or Double 
> density (180/360K) or High density (1.2M).

Looking at these datas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_density

Maybe you can read the QD disk using a 1.2M floppy drive and teledisk, 
but the problem will be write the image on a new disk.

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#53276

Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of floppies those are.

"Giuseppe³" <miaooaimATtiscaliDOTit@xxx.xxx> wrote in message 
news:rtngh5$r6k$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> Il 13/01/21 20:01, Giuseppe³ ha scritto:
>> Il 13/01/21 19:56, Giuseppe³ ha scritto:
>>> Il 12/01/21 11:42, Mantas ha scritto:
>>>> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like 
>>>> to make backups (if they are still readable).
>>
>> I've take a look to the link and saw the disk photo.
>>
>> A question is: Are these disk DS=Double side QD= Quad density???
>> I think that with a PC floppy drive you can only read Single or Double 
>> density (180/360K) or High density (1.2M).
>
> Looking at these datas:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_density
>
> Maybe you can read the QD disk using a 1.2M floppy drive and teledisk, but 
> the problem will be write the image on a new disk.
>
> 

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#53277

Il 14/01/21 12:14, Mantas ha scritto:
> Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of floppies those are.

At the top of the disk label I can read "DS QD".

Is it correct?

If yes them are Double side/Quad density.

I never saw it before :)

Regards

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#53278

Il giorno giovedì 14 gennaio 2021 alle 19:40:56 UTC+1 Giuseppe³ ha scritto:
> Il 14/01/21 12:14, Mantas ha scritto:
> I never saw it before :) 

Ciao,
try to have a look at that:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-12435.html

Dino
comPVter

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#53289

Might be, not sure :)

"Giuseppe³" <miaooaimATtiscaliDOTit@xxx.xxx> wrote in message 
news:rtq37i$1s2f$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> Il 14/01/21 12:14, Mantas ha scritto:
>> Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of floppies those are.
>
> At the top of the disk label I can read "DS QD".
>
> Is it correct?
>
> If yes them are Double side/Quad density.
>
> I never saw it before :)
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> 

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#53286

Mantas wrote:
> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like 
> to make backups (if they are still readable).
> 
> I have a 386 with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 and if needed I can connect a 
> 5,25" drive to WinXP computer.
> 
> How should I proceed without damaging the disks:
> 
>   1.. To make a RAW disk image (and later copy to another disk)
> 
>   2.. Browse the software/run on an emulator
> 
> Thanks!
> 

I would connect it to the winxp
and use DD (Disk Dump) http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
That will create 100% same images from the floppies.

Then I would also do a copy /a (copy /? I think that's how it's done in 
DOS) to copy all files into a folder and zip it up.

That's how I did my VC++ 20 disks
https://archive.org/details/MicrosoftVisualStudioC1.01993

----------
http://mgarcia.org/

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#53290

Thanks, I will try that.

"Mike Garcia" <mike@mgarcia.nospam> wrote in message 
news:ru2iaj$18nn$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> Mantas wrote:
>> I have 2 floppy disks from a Lithuanian ZX-Spectrum clone. I would like 
>> to make backups (if they are still readable).
>>
>> I have a 386 with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 and if needed I can connect a 5,25" 
>> drive to WinXP computer.
>>
>> How should I proceed without damaging the disks:
>>
>>  1.. To make a RAW disk image (and later copy to another disk)
>>
>>  2.. Browse the software/run on an emulator
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>
> I would connect it to the winxp
> and use DD (Disk Dump) http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
> That will create 100% same images from the floppies.
>
> Then I would also do a copy /a (copy /? I think that's how it's done in 
> DOS) to copy all files into a folder and zip it up.
>
> That's how I did my VC++ 20 disks
> https://archive.org/details/MicrosoftVisualStudioC1.01993
>
> ----------
> http://mgarcia.org/ 

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#53292

Mike Garcia <mike@mgarcia.nospam> wrote:
> I would connect it to the winxp
> and use DD (Disk Dump) http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
> That will create 100% same images from the floppies.

That doesn't appear to handle floppies with sector numbering or track layout
that isn't the same as DOS uses.  For example, I doubt it will handle discs
with sectors numbered from zero (as some retrocomputers do) instead of one
(as DOS does).

Apparently:
https://sinclair.wiki.zxnet.co.uk/wiki/TR-DOS_filesystem
TR-DOS floppies are 40 or 80 track, 16 sectors per track, 256 byte sectors
(it appears to only refer to sectors 1 to 15, so it's unclear how sector
numbering works).  I'm not sure how that handles quad-density floppies, but
presumably the same disc layout but with more sectors per track.

Meanwhile, the PC 1.2MB floppy uses 80 tracks, 512 byte sectors, and 15
sectors per track.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats

These formats are incompatible.  I think it is possible to program Windows
XP to read a different layout of floppy disc if you install a suitable
driver (it's easier on DOS or Windows 9x), but you won't be able to simply
image them with regular tools.

Theo

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#53293

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 22:28:40 +0000, Theo wrote:

> Mike Garcia <mike@mgarcia.nospam> wrote:
>> I would connect it to the winxp and use DD (Disk Dump)
>> http://www.chrysocome.net/dd That will create 100% same images from the
>> floppies.
> 
> That doesn't appear to handle floppies with sector numbering or track
> layout that isn't the same as DOS uses.  For example, I doubt it will
> handle discs with sectors numbered from zero (as some retrocomputers do)
> instead of one (as DOS does).
> 
> Apparently:
> https://sinclair.wiki.zxnet.co.uk/wiki/TR-DOS_filesystem TR-DOS floppies
> are 40 or 80 track, 16 sectors per track, 256 byte sectors (it appears
> to only refer to sectors 1 to 15, so it's unclear how sector numbering
> works).  I'm not sure how that handles quad-density floppies, but
> presumably the same disc layout but with more sectors per track.
> 
> Meanwhile, the PC 1.2MB floppy uses 80 tracks, 512 byte sectors, and 15
> sectors per track.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats
> 
> These formats are incompatible.  I think it is possible to program
> Windows XP to read a different layout of floppy disc if you install a
> suitable driver (it's easier on DOS or Windows 9x), but you won't be
> able to simply image them with regular tools.
> 
> Theo

oh thought I read he has a XP machine... 
If it's a DOS/XP issue, maybe making a boot USB/CD/floppy and using linux 
will provide the correct drivers for that floppy?



-- 

Mike Garcia
http://mgarcia.org

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#53305

I can use any OS on PC really.

"Mike Garcia" <mike@mgarcia.nospam> wrote in message 
news:ru55n3$nk2$2@dont-email.me...
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 22:28:40 +0000, Theo wrote:
>
>> Mike Garcia <mike@mgarcia.nospam> wrote:
>>> I would connect it to the winxp and use DD (Disk Dump)
>>> http://www.chrysocome.net/dd That will create 100% same images from the
>>> floppies.
>>
>> That doesn't appear to handle floppies with sector numbering or track
>> layout that isn't the same as DOS uses.  For example, I doubt it will
>> handle discs with sectors numbered from zero (as some retrocomputers do)
>> instead of one (as DOS does).
>>
>> Apparently:
>> https://sinclair.wiki.zxnet.co.uk/wiki/TR-DOS_filesystem TR-DOS floppies
>> are 40 or 80 track, 16 sectors per track, 256 byte sectors (it appears
>> to only refer to sectors 1 to 15, so it's unclear how sector numbering
>> works).  I'm not sure how that handles quad-density floppies, but
>> presumably the same disc layout but with more sectors per track.
>>
>> Meanwhile, the PC 1.2MB floppy uses 80 tracks, 512 byte sectors, and 15
>> sectors per track.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats
>>
>> These formats are incompatible.  I think it is possible to program
>> Windows XP to read a different layout of floppy disc if you install a
>> suitable driver (it's easier on DOS or Windows 9x), but you won't be
>> able to simply image them with regular tools.
>>
>> Theo
>
> oh thought I read he has a XP machine...
> If it's a DOS/XP issue, maybe making a boot USB/CD/floppy and using linux
> will provide the correct drivers for that floppy?
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Mike Garcia
> http://mgarcia.org 

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#53386

Hi Mantas, 

I never made copy of Sinclair diskette, but I did on some Olivetti fdd.

At the time the most useful software was the CopyQM that was able to make
(with its BLIND COPY feature) track-by-track copy including hiding sectors,
track zero, and even errors (a way to protect original software) to allow a
perfect replica of the floppy.

The only problem is that it cannot work on windows/emulated environment, as
these are masking the direct access to the hardware, avoiding any “custom”
instruction to the fdd

So only DOS on a x86 machine (286/386/486)

Mantas <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> wrote:
> I can use any OS on PC really.
> 
>> 
>> oh thought I read he has a XP machine...
>> If it's a DOS/XP issue, maybe making a boot USB/CD/floppy and using linux
>> will provide the correct drivers for that floppy?
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Mike Garcia
>> http://mgarcia.org 
> 
> 

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#53401

Hi,

thanks for the info, DOS on 386 is not a problem :)

"MaveRick" <computelico.erasami@gimeil.comm> wrote in message 
news:s29sno$d2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> Hi Mantas,
>
> I never made copy of Sinclair diskette, but I did on some Olivetti fdd.
>
> At the time the most useful software was the CopyQM that was able to make
> (with its BLIND COPY feature) track-by-track copy including hiding 
> sectors,
> track zero, and even errors (a way to protect original software) to allow 
> a
> perfect replica of the floppy.
>
> The only problem is that it cannot work on windows/emulated environment, 
> as
> these are masking the direct access to the hardware, avoiding any “custom”
> instruction to the fdd
>
> So only DOS on a x86 machine (286/386/486)
>
> Mantas <mantas@universe-trinti.lt> wrote:
>> I can use any OS on PC really.
>>
>>>
>>> oh thought I read he has a XP machine...
>>> If it's a DOS/XP issue, maybe making a boot USB/CD/floppy and using 
>>> linux
>>> will provide the correct drivers for that floppy?
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Mike Garcia
>>> http://mgarcia.org
>>
>>
>
>
> 

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