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Groups > comp.theory > #35756 > unrolled thread
| Started by | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-07-05 11:28 -0500 |
| Last post | 2021-07-08 20:37 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 334 — 17 participants |
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How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 11:28 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 13:06 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:17 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 13:54 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 14:30 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 15:54 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 22:34 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 16:40 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 17:48 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 17:41 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 19:14 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 00:15 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 19:04 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 20:45 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 20:01 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 21:22 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 21:37 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 06:38 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 04:14 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 03:33 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 22:06 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 13:39 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 10:59 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 02:55 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 22:29 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 11:33 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 11:19 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 13:28 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 11:32 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 14:16 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 22:32 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 02:56 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V2) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 21:00 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V2) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 16:32 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 11:24 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 10:53 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 13:10 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 11:59 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 14:51 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 13:47 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 14:35 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 16:49 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 20:18 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 20:24 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 21:45 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 21:04 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 22:45 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 22:03 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 06:56 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 07:46 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 23:39 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 22:54 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-08 22:15 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 23:26 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-08 22:44 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 23:53 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 22:10 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 22:53 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 06:58 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 07:58 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 06:12 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 08:35 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 07:12 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 09:18 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 07:41 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-08 17:07 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 11:24 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 09:55 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-08 23:52 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 20:07 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-09 02:48 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 21:21 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 21:36 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-09 12:30 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 05:56 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 08:59 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-09 17:59 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 20:32 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 19:28 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-09 18:06 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 12:47 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-09 20:16 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 14:24 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 12:33 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-09 22:08 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 16:13 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 12:40 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 08:54 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 15:30 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 10:00 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 16:15 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 10:21 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 16:25 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 08:30 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 16:33 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 08:34 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 08:45 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 11:08 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 17:34 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ]( You and I ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 11:42 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ]( You and I ) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 10:54 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ]( You and I ) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 11:23 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ]( You and I ) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 11:41 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ]( You and I ) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 13:15 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 08:24 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 15:19 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2021-07-11 00:29 +0000
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 19:57 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 20:33 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 22:59 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-09 23:10 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 17:41 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 12:28 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 10:50 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-09 22:59 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 17:29 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-10 00:23 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 18:31 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-10 01:13 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 19:33 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-11 01:57 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 20:00 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-11 03:08 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 22:13 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 23:13 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-11 07:14 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-11 00:27 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-11 01:07 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-11 01:39 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-11 01:42 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 09:16 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 09:16 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-11 11:10 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 09:30 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-11 20:04 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ]( Flibble agrees ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 14:47 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-11 22:35 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-12 09:13 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-12 09:20 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Theperfect Parrotsstore <theperfectparrotsstore@gmail.com> - 2021-07-12 08:23 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-12 12:35 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-12 12:39 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-12 17:18 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-12 18:00 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 08:41 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 07:57 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 09:42 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-13 07:54 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 10:02 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-13 22:23 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 15:52 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-14 22:09 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 16:47 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-14 21:03 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-14 20:57 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 22:12 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-14 21:57 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 01:44 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 09:17 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-15 21:04 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 16:31 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 15:08 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 15:18 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 16:13 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 16:54 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 19:42 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 07:25 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 01:17 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 19:52 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 03:09 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 22:03 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-17 01:43 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 19:07 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 19:29 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 19:54 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 22:34 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 21:11 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 21:48 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 07:44 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 02:27 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 18:43 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 03:45 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 23:05 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 10:11 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-16 22:52 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 13:12 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-16 22:39 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 09:08 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 10:33 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 09:36 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 10:43 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 10:11 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 17:21 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 16:44 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 17:55 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 17:08 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 18:50 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 18:20 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 19:32 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 19:02 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 20:11 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 19:42 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 20:52 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 20:07 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 21:14 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-13 20:30 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 21:42 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-13 22:29 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 15:53 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-14 15:01 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 16:39 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-14 21:06 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-13 23:13 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 10:07 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-14 21:35 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-12 21:20 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-12 21:15 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-12 21:10 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-11 06:54 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ suspended not halted ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 09:14 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-09 20:39 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 20:08 -0700
The (binary decision) tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 22:30 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 20:42 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 22:18 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-09 21:46 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 23:01 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-09 22:28 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 23:45 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-09 23:24 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 22:32 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 22:39 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 23:01 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 09:25 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-10 09:12 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ type mismatch error ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 10:32 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ type mismatch error ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-10 09:48 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ type mismatch error ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 11:19 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 21:51 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 21:59 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 21:01 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-09 21:17 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 23:24 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 23:50 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 23:43 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 23:40 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 20:17 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 20:31 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 21:51 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 21:07 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 22:51 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 22:04 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-08 07:02 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 08:29 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-09 00:05 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 23:27 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-09 05:53 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 09:02 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 20:59 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 23:15 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 13:07 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 08:27 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 07:42 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 10:26 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 22:02 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 02:56 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 21:59 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-06 21:18 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 15:41 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-06 23:18 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 16:13 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 18:38 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 18:44 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 16:53 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 18:56 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 17:46 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 19:50 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 17:56 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 20:18 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 18:37 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 20:43 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 18:55 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 19:06 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 22:19 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 08:01 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 20:47 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 03:23 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 22:19 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 00:55 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 09:35 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 09:29 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 16:31 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 10:53 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 17:33 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 12:06 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 20:28 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 14:54 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 10:19 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 12:21 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-07 19:05 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 13:30 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-07 14:28 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 16:44 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 15:50 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 18:09 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 20:22 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 22:08 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 14:31 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 22:35 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-07 11:46 +0100
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 04:50 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 09:47 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 20:26 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 17:34 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 20:15 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 22:00 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 21:08 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-07 22:51 -0400
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 14:18 +0200
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 14:39 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 14:52 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 17:05 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 15:41 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 18:04 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 16:19 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 18:34 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 17:03 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 19:14 -0500
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 17:19 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 17:26 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 02:41 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 02:50 -0700
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-08 14:08 -0600
Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 20:37 -0700
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| From | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 16:31 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <NoCdnUsi2OCCNG39nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #36354 |
On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: > olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes: > >> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote: >>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote: >>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> >>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea >>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed: >>>> >>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of >>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state >>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error. >>>> >>>> Undecidability has always only been an error. >>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM. >>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer. >>>> >>> H_Hat is constructed after H. > >>> There's always a right answer - >> >> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an >> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as >> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question. > > That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You You are a God damned liar. When we examine the full context HP/input pair of that question It is just like the question posed to Jack: Daryl McCullough Jun 25, 2004, 6:30:39 PM You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful yes/no answer to the following question: Will Jack's answer to this question be no? Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question. https://groups.google.com/g/sci.logic/c/4kIXI1kxmsI/m/hRroMoQZx2IJ That someone else besides Jack can correctly answer the question posed to Jack is irrelevant. The fact that the yes/no question posed to Jack does not have a correct yes/no answer proves beyond all doubt that the question (when posed to Jack) is incorrect. > gave us the correct answer to that question for your H^ (now called P) > when you posted a trace showing that it halts. (And you'd also said so, > using rather timid language, before that as well.) > >> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are >> not answering the actual question with its full context. > > You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a > question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can > determine which in every case. > Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your God damned lies. David Kleineke will agree that the context is crucial: He disagreed with Frege's principle of compositionality specifically because it ignores context. https://iep.utm.edu/composit/ David and I have spoke very much on sci.lang. The context of who you are asking is a mandatory aspect of the full meaning of a question. By continually insisting on ignoring this context you prove yourself to be a God damned liar. Please quit being a God damned liar. -- Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Einstein
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 15:08 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <dd4d2eb7-8054-4100-b597-800f2404605dn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36358 |
+++You are a God damned liar. You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful yes/no answer to the following question: Will Jack's answer to this question be no? Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question. That someone else besides Jack can correctly answer the question posed to Jack is irrelevant. The fact that the yes/no question posed to Jack does not have a correct yes/no answer proves beyond all doubt that the question (when posed to Jack) is incorrect. for bob the correct number of models to a boolean variable with two clauses is zero ... +++Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your +++God damned lies. as a gre2380 my mind only supports general truth structures similar to bob in reasoning David Kleineke will agree that the context is crucial: He disagreed with Frege's principle of compositionality specifically because it ignores context. https://iep.utm.edu/composit/ David and I have spoke very much on sci.lang. The context of who you are asking is a mandatory aspect of the full meaning of a question. By continually insisting on ignoring this context you prove yourself to be a God damned liar. Please quit being a God damned liar. as a gre2380 my mind only supports general truth structures similar to bob in reasoning daniel gres 2380 called seven sigma for easy counting servant of god in truth so help me god
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 15:18 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <09c2f76f-bc06-4f78-a0a9-06657b1b299en@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36360 |
++++++You are a God damned liar. +++You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful +++yes/no answer to the following question: +++Will Jack's answer to this question be no? +++Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question. +++That someone else besides Jack can correctly answer the question posed +++to Jack is irrelevant. The fact that the yes/no question posed to Jack +++does not have a correct yes/no answer proves beyond all doubt that the +++question (when posed to Jack) is incorrect. +++ ++for bob the correct number of models ++to a single deep boolean variable problem en equals one em equals two p cnf ++with two clauses is zero bob the answer is zero but you shall always say five then think well of the place
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 16:13 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <24c611e1-8d18-4229-b582-59af949bf731n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36361 |
++for bob the correct number of models ++to a single deep Boolean variable problem ++ p cnf en equals one em equals two ++ with two general clauses is zero ++ dear bob the answer is zero but ++ you shall always say five then think well of the place so fear not academia the number of great academic arguments that have zero models are definable with a single pair of clauses in a language with a small alphabet please i just say twenty seven letters only alphabet god reads these days
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| From | "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 16:54 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <573eb2ae-66f7-480a-b8d8-eb884cab7471n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36358 |
> David Kleineke will agree that the context is crucial: > He disagreed with Frege's principle of compositionality specifically > because it ignores context. https://iep.utm.edu/composit/ > David and I have spoke very much on sci.lang. I do reject the idea of compositionality that Frege advanced because it ignores context. But this is a natural language problem. Mathematics, unlike natural language, does not use the idea of context. The argument that has been going on in comp.theory is about neither natural language nor mathematics. To supply a name I call it "logic". And I deplore it. I want clear definitions and proof steps. I admit I don't like the current popular definitions of Turing Machines and would start by re-defining them. I am curious how a higher language could be said to be equivalent to a Turing Machine.
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| From | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 19:42 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <I6adnY5HUo6SS239nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #36364 |
On 7/15/2021 6:54 PM, dklei...@gmail.com wrote: >> David Kleineke will agree that the context is crucial: >> He disagreed with Frege's principle of compositionality specifically >> because it ignores context. https://iep.utm.edu/composit/ >> David and I have spoke very much on sci.lang. > > I do reject the idea of compositionality that Frege advanced because it > ignores context. But this is a natural language problem. Mathematics, > unlike natural language, does not use the idea of context. The argument > that has been going on in comp.theory is about neither natural language > nor mathematics. To supply a name I call it "logic". And I deplore it. > > I want clear definitions and proof steps. I admit I don't like the current > popular definitions of Turing Machines and would start by re-defining > them. I am curious how a higher language could be said to be > equivalent to a Turing Machine. > CONTEXT MATTERS: If you ask a man: Are you president of the United States? Only Joe Biden can say yes and not be a God damned liar. Who you ask determines the correct answer to many questions. When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer. This is exactly like the liar paradox in that because both Boolean values are contradicted neither Boolean value is correct. Flibble is the only one that has understood this in the 17 years since I first pointed it out. You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful yes/no answer to the following question: Will Jack's answer to this question be no? Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question. (Daryl McCullough Jun 25, 2004, 6:30:39 PM) https://groups.google.com/g/sci.logic/c/4kIXI1kxmsI/m/hRroMoQZx2IJ Everyone else can possibly give a correct answer to that question because when context is considered it becomes a different question for them. Does X halt on its input P? Has classically been understood to lack a correct Boolean return value from some software functions in (function / input) pair. This has been classically presented as proof that the halting problem is undecidable, as if the function is unable to choose between true and false. The actual case is that both true and false are incorrect return values for this (function / input) pair. This rigged game does not count. My partial decider correctly decides even this rigged game. H aborts the simulation of its input P before any simulated H ever returns any value to P. H is basically telling lying cheating P to STFU. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation -- Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Einstein
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| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-17 07:25 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <YSAII.3673$Q75.1340@fx24.iad> |
| In reply to | #36367 |
On 7/15/21 6:42 PM, olcott wrote: > On 7/15/2021 6:54 PM, dklei...@gmail.com wrote: >>> David Kleineke will agree that the context is crucial: >>> He disagreed with Frege's principle of compositionality specifically >>> because it ignores context. https://iep.utm.edu/composit/ >>> David and I have spoke very much on sci.lang. >> I do reject the idea of compositionality that Frege advanced because it >> ignores context. But this is a natural language problem. Mathematics, >> unlike natural language, does not use the idea of context. The argument >> that has been going on in comp.theory is about neither natural language >> nor mathematics. To supply a name I call it "logic". And I deplore it. >> >> I want clear definitions and proof steps. I admit I don't like the >> current >> popular definitions of Turing Machines and would start by re-defining >> them. I am curious how a higher language could be said to be >> equivalent to a Turing Machine. >> > > CONTEXT MATTERS: > If you ask a man: Are you president of the United States? > Only Joe Biden can say yes and not be a God damned liar. > > Who you ask determines the correct answer to many questions. But some questions don't matter, like "Is Joe Biden the President of the United States?" Or, Does the Program P(I) Halt when it is run. > > When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of > whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of > true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer. > H should not be defined that way unless you are being stupid. H should look at its input P, I and do its best to decide if P(I) will halt or not. It is P (or more properly H^) that is defined to be contrary, that it will use the algorithm of H to figure out what H will say about H^(H^) and do the opposite. > This is exactly like the liar paradox in that because both Boolean > values are contradicted neither Boolean value is correct. No, it isn't. The Liar Paradox is a statement which refers to its own truth value in a way that it can be neither True of False. The Halting State of H^(H^) is definitely either True of False depending on the definition of H (which must be defined before we can even ask the Halting Question of H^). You only run into the Paradox when you try to design an H to get its H^ right, and THEN you fail. Just like if you are playing Tic-Tac-Toe, because the second player get to see what the first player does, the second player is able to keep the first player from winning if they play right. > > Flibble is the only one that has understood this in the 17 years since I > first pointed it out. > > > > You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful > yes/no answer to the following question: > > Will Jack's answer to this question be no? > > Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question. > > (Daryl McCullough Jun 25, 2004, 6:30:39 PM) > https://groups.google.com/g/sci.logic/c/4kIXI1kxmsI/m/hRroMoQZx2IJ > > Everyone else can possibly give a correct answer to that question > because when context is considered it becomes a different question for > them. > > Does X halt on its input P? And H^ does Halt on the input H^ !! (At least if H says it doesn't like you have defined) So H is wrong with its answer. > > Has classically been understood to lack a correct Boolean return value > from some software functions in (function / input) pair. Wrong Problem. > > This has been classically presented as proof that the halting problem is > undecidable, as if the function is unable to choose between true and false. > > The actual case is that both true and false are incorrect return values > for this (function / input) pair. This rigged game does not count. Why doesn't the rigged game count, it IS the game. Is Tic-Tac-Toe not a game? > > My partial decider correctly decides even this rigged game. > H aborts the simulation of its input P before any simulated H ever > returns any value to P. H is basically telling lying cheating P to STFU. > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation > > > >
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 01:17 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <87o8b3ru1q.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #36358 |
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes: > On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: >> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes: >> >>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote: >>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> >>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea >>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed: >>>>> >>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of >>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state >>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error. >>>>> >>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error. >>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM. >>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer. >>>>> >>>> H_Hat is constructed after H. >> >>>> There's always a right answer - >>> >>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an >>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as >>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question. >> >> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You > > You are a God damned liar. Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition? >>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are >>> not answering the actual question with its full context. >> >> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a >> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can >> determine which in every case. >> > > Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your > God damned lies. Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you have been doing for years. > Please quit being a God damned liar. Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz? What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they lying too? You really need to get over yourself. -- Ben.
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| From | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 19:52 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <ub2dnZT5z7agRW39nZ2dnUU7-SfNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #36365 |
On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: > olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes: > >> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: >>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes: >>> >>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote: >>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea >>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed: >>>>>> >>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of >>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state >>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error. >>>>>> >>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error. >>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM. >>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer. >>>>>> >>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H. >>> >>>>> There's always a right answer - >>>> >>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an >>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as >>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question. >>> >>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You >> >> You are a God damned liar. > > Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem > is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've > read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition? > >>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are >>>> not answering the actual question with its full context. >>> >>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a >>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can >>> determine which in every case. >>> >> >> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your >> God damned lies. > > Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting > problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you > have been doing for years. > >> Please quit being a God damned liar. > > Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz? > What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they > lying too? You really need to get over yourself. > You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself: David Kleineke knows that the context of a question is a crucial and intrinsic aspect of the question and that an otherwise identically worded question is a different question in different contexts. When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer. This is not the same freaking question as: Does program P halt on its input I? This is exactly like the liar paradox in that because both Boolean values are contradicted neither Boolean value is correct. Flibble is the only one that has understood this in the 17 years since I first pointed it out. -- Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Einstein
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 03:09 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] |
| Message-ID | <877dhrrow3.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #36368 |
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea
>>>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of
>>>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state
>>>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error.
>>>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM.
>>>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H.
>>>>
>>>>>> There's always a right answer -
>>>>>
>>>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an
>>>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as
>>>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question.
>>>>
>>>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You
>>>
>>> You are a God damned liar.
>> Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem
>> is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've
>> read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition?
>>
>>>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are
>>>>> not answering the actual question with its full context.
>>>>
>>>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a
>>>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can
>>>> determine which in every case.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your
>>> God damned lies.
>>
>> Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting
>> problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you
>> have been doing for years.
>>
>>> Please quit being a God damned liar.
>>
>> Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz?
>> What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they
>> lying too? You really need to get over yourself.
>
> You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the
> question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself:
The context is clear. There is a set of strings
{ <M, w> | M is a TM and H halts on input w }
(I'm using Siper here.) The problem is whether this set is decidable.
Is he lying? No. Like everyone but you, he clearly states the problem
with all the context needed to understand it.
> When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of
> whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of
> true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer.
>
> This is not the same freaking question as:
> Does program P halt on its input I?
I am glad we agree. Since we both agree there are two separate
questions, do you have anything at all to say about the second one? I'd
really like to hear you to say that you are not considering the question
"Does program P halt on its input I?" but you are, instead, considering
the first one -- the one that is somewhat like the liar.
> This is exactly like the liar paradox in that because both Boolean
> values are contradicted neither Boolean value is correct.
Not for the second question which is the halting problem. There is
always a correct answer for the question "Does program P halt on its
input I?". Are you willing to say that this is not the question you
have been considering for the last 16 years?
> Flibble is the only one that has understood this in the 17 years since
> I first pointed it out.
You know he's a crank too, yes?
--
Ben.
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| From | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 22:03 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <h_mdnS8SrMGPam39nZ2dnUU7-IXNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #36371 |
On 7/15/2021 9:09 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea
>>>>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of
>>>>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state
>>>>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error.
>>>>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM.
>>>>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's always a right answer -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an
>>>>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as
>>>>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You
>>>>
>>>> You are a God damned liar.
>>> Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem
>>> is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've
>>> read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition?
>>>
>>>>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are
>>>>>> not answering the actual question with its full context.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a
>>>>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can
>>>>> determine which in every case.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your
>>>> God damned lies.
>>>
>>> Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting
>>> problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you
>>> have been doing for years.
>>>
>>>> Please quit being a God damned liar.
>>>
>>> Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz?
>>> What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they
>>> lying too? You really need to get over yourself.
>>
>> You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the
>> question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself:
>
> The context is clear. There is a set of strings
>
> { <M, w> | M is a TM and H halts on input w }
>
> (I'm using Siper here.) The problem is whether this set is decidable.
> Is he lying? No. Like everyone but you, he clearly states the problem
> with all the context needed to understand it.
>
>> When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of
>> whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of
>> true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer.
>>
>> This is not the same freaking question as:
>> Does program P halt on its input I?
>
> I am glad we agree. Since we both agree there are two separate
> questions, do you have anything at all to say about the second one? I'd
Does program P halting on input I?
Is a correct question for some H and an incorrect question for H that is
defined such that its input does the opposite of whatever it decides.
If we ask Donald Trump:
Are you the president of the United States?
He will lie and say yes.
If we ask Joe Biden:
Are you the president of the United States?
He provide the same answer to the same question except this time it is
true.
Context <is> part of the question. David Kleineke will back me up on
this. We spoke quite extensively on sci.lang, (the linguistics forum)
for several years.
> really like to hear you to say that you are not considering the question
> "Does program P halt on its input I?" but you are, instead, considering
> the first one -- the one that is somewhat like the liar.
>
>> This is exactly like the liar paradox in that because both Boolean
>> values are contradicted neither Boolean value is correct.
>
> Not for the second question which is the halting problem. There is
> always a correct answer for the question "Does program P halt on its
> input I?". Are you willing to say that this is not the question you
> have been considering for the last 16 years?
>
Every TM either halts on its input or fails to halt on its input.
Now that I understand these things at a much deeper level I can commit
to that.
>> Flibble is the only one that has understood this in the 17 years since
>> I first pointed it out.
>
> You know he's a crank too, yes?
>
Until he explained why he agreed with me I had simply thought that he
was totally clueless about the halting problem:
On 7/10/2021 12:00 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> I agree with Olcott that a halt decider can NOT be part of that which
> is being decided (see [Strachey 1965]) which, if Olcott is correct,
> falsifies a collection of proofs (which I don't have the time to
> examine) which rely on that mistake.
>
> /Flibble
>
The above proves to me that he fully understands the essence of the
pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) error:
On Sunday, September 5, 2004 at 11:21:57 AM UTC-5, Peter Olcott wrote:
> The Liar Paradox can be shown to be nothing more than
> a incorrectly formed statement because of its pathological
> self-reference. The Halting Problem can only exist because
> of this same sort of pathological self-reference.
You can simply write him off as a crank and gullible fools will believe
that to be a sufficient rebuttal. That his reasoning specifically
matches my reasoning can only be written off by damned liars.
--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-17 01:43 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <87bl71ojlx.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #36373 |
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 7/15/2021 9:09 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea
>>>>>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of
>>>>>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state
>>>>>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error.
>>>>>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM.
>>>>>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's always a right answer -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an
>>>>>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as
>>>>>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You
>>>>>
>>>>> You are a God damned liar.
>>>> Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem
>>>> is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've
>>>> read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition?
>>>>
>>>>>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are
>>>>>>> not answering the actual question with its full context.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a
>>>>>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can
>>>>>> determine which in every case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your
>>>>> God damned lies.
>>>>
>>>> Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting
>>>> problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you
>>>> have been doing for years.
>>>>
>>>>> Please quit being a God damned liar.
>>>>
>>>> Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz?
>>>> What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they
>>>> lying too? You really need to get over yourself.
>>>
>>> You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the
>>> question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself:
>> The context is clear. There is a set of strings
>> { <M, w> | M is a TM and H halts on input w }
>> (I'm using Siper here.) The problem is whether this set is decidable.
>> Is he lying? No. Like everyone but you, he clearly states the problem
>> with all the context needed to understand it.
>>
>>> When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of
>>> whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of
>>> true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer.
>>>
>>> This is not the same freaking question as:
>>> Does program P halt on its input I?
>>
>> I am glad we agree. Since we both agree there are two separate
>> questions, do you have anything at all to say about the second one? I'd
>
> Does program P halting on input I?
> Is a correct question for some H and an incorrect question for H that
> is defined such that its input does the opposite of whatever it
> decides.
The second question: "Does program P halt on input I?" is the halting
problem. The "incorrect question for" junk is your other question --
the one you say, and I agree, is "not the same freaking question".
> If we ask Donald Trump:
> Are you the president of the United States?
> He will lie and say yes.
The halting problem is "Does program P halt on input I?". The correct
answer is not defined or constrained by who or what we ask. The correct
answer simply "yes" if, an only if, P(I) halts.
If you are not addressing the halting problem, fine. But if you are,
your H which has H(P,P) == 0 (AKA "no") when P(P) halts is simply wrong.
--
Ben.
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 19:07 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <61daf07e-87ab-4f70-a493-73e9d85c3461n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36484 |
i have observed that the following structure is at the core of great arguments
given some single boolean ideal as some symbol written in some letters of some alphabet such as abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw yz0
plus any two real clauses on same implying unsatisfiability
p cnf 1 2
-1 0
1 0
p cnf 1 2
1 0
-1 0
the core of all great human argument in a language
model counting is going well ben
On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 8:43:40 PM UTC-4, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
> > On 7/15/2021 9:09 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea
> >>>>>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of
> >>>>>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state
> >>>>>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error.
> >>>>>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM.
> >>>>>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There's always a right answer -
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an
> >>>>>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as
> >>>>>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are a God damned liar.
> >>>> Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem
> >>>> is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've
> >>>> read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are
> >>>>>>> not answering the actual question with its full context.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a
> >>>>>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can
> >>>>>> determine which in every case.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your
> >>>>> God damned lies.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting
> >>>> problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you
> >>>> have been doing for years.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Please quit being a God damned liar.
> >>>>
> >>>> Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz?
> >>>> What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they
> >>>> lying too? You really need to get over yourself.
> >>>
> >>> You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the
> >>> question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself:
> >> The context is clear. There is a set of strings
> >> { <M, w> | M is a TM and H halts on input w }
> >> (I'm using Siper here.) The problem is whether this set is decidable.
> >> Is he lying? No. Like everyone but you, he clearly states the problem
> >> with all the context needed to understand it.
> >>
> >>> When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of
> >>> whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of
> >>> true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer.
> >>>
> >>> This is not the same freaking question as:
> >>> Does program P halt on its input I?
> >>
> >> I am glad we agree. Since we both agree there are two separate
> >> questions, do you have anything at all to say about the second one? I'd
> >
> > Does program P halting on input I?
> > Is a correct question for some H and an incorrect question for H that
> > is defined such that its input does the opposite of whatever it
> > decides.
> The second question: "Does program P halt on input I?" is the halting
> problem. The "incorrect question for" junk is your other question --
> the one you say, and I agree, is "not the same freaking question".
> > If we ask Donald Trump:
> > Are you the president of the United States?
> > He will lie and say yes.
> The halting problem is "Does program P halt on input I?". The correct
> answer is not defined or constrained by who or what we ask. The correct
> answer simply "yes" if, an only if, P(I) halts.
>
> If you are not addressing the halting problem, fine. But if you are,
> your H which has H(P,P) == 0 (AKA "no") when P(P) halts is simply wrong.
>
> --
> Ben.
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 19:29 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <90294b04-48a8-442a-9948-991f31063fafn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36485 |
+ i have observed that the following structure is at the core of great arguments + given some single boolean ideal as some symbol written in some letters of some alphabet such as abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw yz0 + plus any two real clauses on same implying unsatisfiability + p cnf 1 2 + -1 0 + 1 0 + + p cnf 1 2 + 1 0 + -1 0 + + the core of all great human argument in a language + model counting is going well ben + p cnf 1 2 + +1 0 + 1 0 + + p cnf 1 2 + 1 0 + +1 0 + + p cnf 1 2 + ~1 0 + 1 0 + + p cnf 1 2 + 1 0 + ~1 0 + variations on theme of one single boolean in unsatisfiable condition models zero 0
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 19:54 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <3a53cafb-f9c0-42af-aed4-cab1204bd837n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36486 |
On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 10:29:43 PM UTC-4, Daniel Pehoushek wrote: > + i have observed that the following structure is at the core of great arguments > + given some single boolean ideal as some symbol written in some letters of some alphabet such as abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw yz0 > + plus any two real clauses on same implying unsatisfiability > + p cnf 1 2 > + -1 0 > + 1 0 > + > + p cnf 1 2 > + 1 0 > + -1 0 > + > + the core of all great human argument in a language > + model counting is going well ben > + p cnf 1 2 > + +1 0 > + 1 0 > + > + p cnf 1 2 > + 1 0 > + +1 0 > + > + p cnf 1 2 > + ~1 0 > + 1 0 > + > + p cnf 1 2 > + 1 0 > + ~1 0 > + > variations on theme of > one single boolean > in unsatisfiable > condition > models > zero > 0 so choose booleans well in order to define good argumentation for bob dear pete olcott depth twenty recursively and bob halts automatically bob solves pspace reasoning formulas
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| From | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 22:34 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <Ta6dnQEcwuNG0m_9nZ2dnUU7-eHNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #36488 |
On 7/16/2021 9:54 PM, Daniel Pehoushek wrote: > On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 10:29:43 PM UTC-4, Daniel Pehoushek wrote: >> + i have observed that the following structure is at the core of great arguments >> + given some single boolean ideal as some symbol written in some letters of some alphabet such as abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw yz0 >> + plus any two real clauses on same implying unsatisfiability >> + p cnf 1 2 >> + -1 0 >> + 1 0 >> + >> + p cnf 1 2 >> + 1 0 >> + -1 0 >> + >> + the core of all great human argument in a language >> + model counting is going well ben >> + p cnf 1 2 >> + +1 0 >> + 1 0 >> + >> + p cnf 1 2 >> + 1 0 >> + +1 0 >> + >> + p cnf 1 2 >> + ~1 0 >> + 1 0 >> + >> + p cnf 1 2 >> + 1 0 >> + ~1 0 >> + >> variations on theme of >> one single boolean >> in unsatisfiable >> condition >> models >> zero >> 0 > > so choose booleans well > in order to define good > argumentation for bob > > dear pete olcott depth twenty recursively and bob halts automatically > bob solves pspace reasoning formulas > I only care about the halting problem so that I can refute the Tarski undefinability theorem to provide the basis for Davidson truth conditional semantics. Only after I do this do I want to apply this technology to create a system to automatically populate a knowledge ontology. -- Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Einstein
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| From | Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 21:11 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <05d81d61-9617-43e3-99d1-633fb0fe5629n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #36489 |
dear pete about argumentation in general try also deep argumentation on essentially two booleans with four precisely clauses p cnf 2 4 +1 +2 0 +1 2 0 1 +2 0 1 2 0 > >> + > >> variations on theme of > >> one single boolean > >> in unsatisfiable > >> condition > >> models > >> zero > >> 0 > >
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| From | olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 21:48 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <IJGdnTat_8KK2G_9nZ2dnUU7-c_NnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #36484 |
On 7/16/2021 7:43 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 7/15/2021 9:09 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea
>>>>>>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of
>>>>>>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state
>>>>>>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error.
>>>>>>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM.
>>>>>>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's always a right answer -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an
>>>>>>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as
>>>>>>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are a God damned liar.
>>>>> Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem
>>>>> is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've
>>>>> read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are
>>>>>>>> not answering the actual question with its full context.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a
>>>>>>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can
>>>>>>> determine which in every case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your
>>>>>> God damned lies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting
>>>>> problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you
>>>>> have been doing for years.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please quit being a God damned liar.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz?
>>>>> What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they
>>>>> lying too? You really need to get over yourself.
>>>>
>>>> You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the
>>>> question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself:
>>> The context is clear. There is a set of strings
>>> { <M, w> | M is a TM and H halts on input w }
>>> (I'm using Siper here.) The problem is whether this set is decidable.
>>> Is he lying? No. Like everyone but you, he clearly states the problem
>>> with all the context needed to understand it.
>>>
>>>> When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of
>>>> whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of
>>>> true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer.
>>>>
>>>> This is not the same freaking question as:
>>>> Does program P halt on its input I?
>>>
>>> I am glad we agree. Since we both agree there are two separate
>>> questions, do you have anything at all to say about the second one? I'd
>>
>> Does program P halting on input I?
>> Is a correct question for some H and an incorrect question for H that
>> is defined such that its input does the opposite of whatever it
>> decides.
>
> The second question: "Does program P halt on input I?" is the halting
> problem. The "incorrect question for" junk is your other question --
> the one you say, and I agree, is "not the same freaking question".
>
>> If we ask Donald Trump:
>> Are you the president of the United States?
>> He will lie and say yes.
>
> The halting problem is "Does program P halt on input I?". The correct
> answer is not defined or constrained by who or what we ask. The correct
> answer simply "yes" if, an only if, P(I) halts.
Everyone the understands the science of language fully knows that who is
being asked a question is an intrinsic aspect of the semantic meaning of
this question. I have spoken with David Kleinke on the linguistics forum
about natural language semantics for many years.
You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful
yes/no answer to the following question:
Will Jack's answer to this question be no?
Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question.
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.logic/c/4kIXI1kxmsI/m/hRroMoQZx2IJ
That a question has no correct answer when we ask Jack and the exact
same worded question does have a correct answer when we ask someone
besides Jack conclusively proves beyond all possible doubt that it is
not the same question even though it has identical words.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and
you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right.
> If you are not addressing the halting problem, fine. But if you are,
> your H which has H(P,P) == 0 (AKA "no") when P(P) halts is simply wrong.
>
--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein
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| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-17 07:44 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <v9BII.13107$0N5.8875@fx06.iad> |
| In reply to | #36487 |
On 7/16/21 8:48 PM, olcott wrote: > Everyone the understands the science of language fully knows that who is > being asked a question is an intrinsic aspect of the semantic meaning of > this question. I have spoken with David Kleinke on the linguistics forum > about natural language semantics for many years. > > You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful > yes/no answer to the following question: > > Will Jack's answer to this question be no? > > Jack can't possibly give a correct yes/no answer to the question. > https://groups.google.com/g/sci.logic/c/4kIXI1kxmsI/m/hRroMoQZx2IJ > > That a question has no correct answer when we ask Jack and the exact > same worded question does have a correct answer when we ask someone > besides Jack conclusively proves beyond all possible doubt that it is > not the same question even though it has identical words. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. > > This is precisely analogous to the halting problem counter-example and > you keep ignoring it because you know that it proves that I am right. Repeating your statement is a sign that you don't really have a good answer, so you try to make a LOUD answer to compensate. You keep asking the worng question for the Halting Proglem. The Halting problem question is NOT dependent on the decider, but is merely does the Machine P(I) come to a halt in a finite number of steps, or not. It ALWAYS has a right answer. Your question is about designing an H to try to beat the template, and THAT question doesn't have a right answer showing that there doesn't exist a decider that can correct decide the ^ Template of Linz, and thus NO decider can get all halting problems right.
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-18 02:27 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) |
| Message-ID | <87czrgmmw5.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #36487 |
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 7/16/2021 7:43 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2021 9:09 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/15/2021 7:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 3:44 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 04:12:32 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When you provide the context of a TM/input pair then the brand new idea
>>>>>>>>>>> that I created "incorrect question" is formed:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When-so-ever a yes/no question has no correct answer from the set of
>>>>>>>>>>> yes/no or a decision problem TM/input pair has has no final state
>>>>>>>>>>> indicting a correct Boolean value then it is an error.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Undecidability has always only been an error.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is not that the correct true/false value cannot be chosen by the TM.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is that both true/false values are the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H_Hat is constructed after H.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's always a right answer -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When the question is what Boolean value can H correctly return to an
>>>>>>>>> input that does the opposite of what H decides it is as obvious as
>>>>>>>>> Hell that there is no correct answer to this specific question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's your question. It's not the halting problem "question". You
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are a God damned liar.
>>>>>> Don't be so dramatic! You really should know what the halting problem
>>>>>> is about by now. Did you not understand any of the definitions you've
>>>>>> read? What about Sipser's? Did you understand his definition?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you change the question to: Does H P halt on its input you are
>>>>>>>>> not answering the actual question with its full context.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are, instead, asking the halting problem "question". This is a
>>>>>>>> question that always has a correct yes/no answer, thought algorithm can
>>>>>>>> determine which in every case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like the God damned liar that you have always been you stick with your
>>>>>>> God damned lies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh don't be such a drama queen! I am simply defining the halting
>>>>>> problem, and you are denying the basic facts of the matter, just as you
>>>>>> have been doing for years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please quit being a God damned liar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did Sipser lie when he defined the halting problem as I do? Did Linz?
>>>>>> What about Church, Kleene, Davis, Moore and all the others? Were they
>>>>>> lying too? You really need to get over yourself.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are a God damned liar when you insist that the context of the
>>>>> question is not an intrinsic aspect of the question itself:
>>>> The context is clear. There is a set of strings
>>>> { <M, w> | M is a TM and H halts on input w }
>>>> (I'm using Siper here.) The problem is whether this set is decidable.
>>>> Is he lying? No. Like everyone but you, he clearly states the problem
>>>> with all the context needed to understand it.
>>>>
>>>>> When a program H is defined such that its input P does the opposite of
>>>>> whatever halt status that H decides for this input P both values of
>>>>> true(halts) and false(never halts) are the wrong answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not the same freaking question as:
>>>>> Does program P halt on its input I?
>>>>
>>>> I am glad we agree. Since we both agree there are two separate
>>>> questions, do you have anything at all to say about the second one? I'd
>>>
>>> Does program P halting on input I?
>>> Is a correct question for some H and an incorrect question for H that
>>> is defined such that its input does the opposite of whatever it
>>> decides.
>> The second question: "Does program P halt on input I?" is the halting
>> problem. The "incorrect question for" junk is your other question --
>> the one you say, and I agree, is "not the same freaking question".
>>
>>> If we ask Donald Trump:
>>> Are you the president of the United States?
>>> He will lie and say yes.
>>
>> The halting problem is "Does program P halt on input I?". The correct
>> answer is not defined or constrained by who or what we ask. The correct
>> answer simply "yes" if, an only if, P(I) halts.
>
> Everyone the understands the science of language fully knows that who
> is being asked a question is an intrinsic aspect of the semantic
> meaning of this question.
No. Whether P(I) is or is not a finite computation depends only on P
and I. Whether you get the right answer depends on who or what you ask,
but the correct answer is determined solely by the objects involved.
P(P) halts (according to you). H(P, P) == 0 (according to you). That
is wrong (according to everyone but you).
--
Ben.
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