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Groups > comp.theory > #125039 > unrolled thread

How is this answer not self-evident ?

Started byolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
First post2025-08-13 00:30 -0500
Last post2025-09-01 11:58 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 431 — 22 participants

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Contents

  How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 00:30 -0500
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 06:43 +0100
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 00:59 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 07:45 +0100
          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:42 -0500
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 16:54 +0100
              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:01 -0500
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 19:20 +0100
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:07 -0500
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:12 -0400
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:24 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:26 -0400
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:37 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:42 -0400
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 19:14 +0000
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:27 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 19:32 +0000
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:39 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 19:47 +0000
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:58 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 20:08 +0000
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:16 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 20:22 +0000
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:30 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 20:35 +0000
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-08-13 20:13 +0000
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:33 -0400
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:28 -0400
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:39 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:44 -0400
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-14 09:34 +0000
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 21:25 +0100
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:49 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:51 -0400
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:06 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 17:08 -0400
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:09 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 17:13 -0400
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 22:19 +0100
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 06:43 +0800
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 07:01 +0800
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:03 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:38 -0400
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:42 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:43 -0400
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:58 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 20:19 -0400
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:26 -0500
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 20:39 -0400
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:48 -0500
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 20:59 -0400
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 20:10 -0500
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:24 -0400
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 20:44 -0500
                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:47 -0400
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 04:08 +0100
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 04:05 +0100
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 03:57 +0100
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 22:12 -0500
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 23:30 -0400
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 05:13 +0100
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-14 07:03 -0400
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 03:46 +0100
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 22:01 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 05:07 +0100
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-14 07:06 -0400
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 03:35 +0100
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:37 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 22:59 -0400
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 22:15 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 23:33 -0400
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 23:30 -0500
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 05:52 +0100
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 00:01 -0500
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 06:26 +0100
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 00:31 -0500
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 06:36 +0100
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 00:42 -0500
                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 07:09 +0100
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 08:00 -0400
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 09:33 -0500
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:07 -0400
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 12:00 -0500
                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 13:53 -0400
                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 12:58 -0500
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 19:23 +0100
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-14 18:42 +0000
                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 13:58 -0500
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 17:01 -0600
                                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 18:09 -0500
                                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 17:28 -0600
                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 18:36 -0500
                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 19:14 -0500
                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 18:33 -0600
                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 19:40 -0500
                                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 20:41 -0400
                                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 18:54 -0600
                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 20:01 -0500
                                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 19:04 -0600
                                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 20:10 -0500
                                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 19:37 -0600
                                                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 21:16 -0500
                                                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 20:28 -0600
                                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 21:32 -0500
                                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-14 20:43 -0600
                                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 21:50 -0500
                                                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 10:29 +0800
                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 20:40 -0400
                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 19:41 -0500
                                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 20:43 -0400
                                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 19:45 -0500
                                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability theorem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 20:53 -0400
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-15 08:18 -0400
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 14:54 -0400
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-15 08:13 -0400
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 16:07 +0100
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:58 -0500
                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 18:23 +0100
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-14 15:53 +0000
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-08-14 16:28 +0000
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-14 22:48 -0400
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-14 07:10 -0400
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 08:00 -0400
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 09:27 -0500
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 15:55 +0100
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 10:07 -0500
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:41 -0500
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 18:19 +0100
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:57 -0500
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:06 -0400
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 12:02 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-14 07:09 -0400
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 04:38 +0100
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 17:22 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:48 -0400
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 23:08 +0000
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:14 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 07:21 +0800
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:28 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 23:43 +0000
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 18:47 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 23:55 +0000
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:03 -0500
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-14 00:05 +0000
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:08 -0500
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-14 00:36 +0000
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 19:47 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 03:39 +0100
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:50 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 23:02 -0400
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 04:54 +0100
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 03:37 +0100
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:48 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 04:53 +0100
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 22:13 +0100
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 21:15 +0000
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 17:20 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 03:28 +0100
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:32 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 22:58 -0400
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 22:13 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 23:32 -0400
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-14 07:14 -0400
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 04:33 +0100
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-14 09:28 +0000
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-08-13 20:33 +0000
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-14 10:09 +0000
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 10:01 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:13 -0400
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 11:47 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-14 17:50 +0000
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 12:53 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 19:20 +0100
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-08-14 19:32 +0000
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 14:45 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-14 21:01 +0000
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 16:26 -0500
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-14 23:38 +0100
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 17:43 -0500
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 18:52 -0400
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-14 22:52 +0000
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 13:52 -0400
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-13 22:57 -0400
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-13 07:04 -0400
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-13 05:56 +0000
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 01:05 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 07:47 +0100
          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:55 -0500
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 16:58 +0100
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-13 07:07 -0400
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-08-13 11:31 +0300
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:59 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-08-14 12:45 +0300
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-13 07:01 -0400
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-08-13 12:33 +0000
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:33 +0800
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 21:36 +0800
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:32 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-14 11:15 +0200
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 16:59 +0000
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:04 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 17:09 +0000
          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:12 -0500
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 17:13 +0000
              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:26 -0500
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 17:32 +0000
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 13:03 -0500
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 18:09 +0000
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 13:14 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 18:19 +0000
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 13:27 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 18:29 +0000
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:10 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 19:19 +0000
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:30 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 19:37 +0000
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:48 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-14 11:21 +0200
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 20:49 +0100
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:02 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 21:55 +0100
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:03 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-14 11:45 +0200
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 20:40 +0100
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 14:55 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 20:01 +0000
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:06 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 20:12 +0000
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:20 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 20:30 +0000
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:44 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:46 -0400
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:08 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 17:10 -0400
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-08-13 20:19 +0000
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 16:35 -0400
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-14 17:33 +0000
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 19:33 +0100
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 19:23 +0100
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:23 -0500
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 17:26 +0000
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:29 -0500
          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-13 17:34 +0000
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-13 19:37 +0100
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-14 11:31 +0200
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-13 17:39 +0000
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 13:01 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-14 11:39 +0200
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-14 17:26 +0000
          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 12:35 -0500
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 01:54 +0800
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 13:58 -0400
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-14 18:38 +0000
              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 13:48 -0500
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-14 18:51 +0000
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 14:01 -0500
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 03:06 +0800
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-14 19:00 +0000
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 14:15 -0500
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 03:23 +0800
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 14:46 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 03:53 +0800
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 15:00 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 04:15 +0800
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 15:54 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 05:09 +0800
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 16:32 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 05:42 +0800
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 17:02 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 06:19 +0800
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 10:59 +0800
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 13:45 -0700
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-14 21:11 +0000
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 16:29 -0500
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-15 13:27 +0200
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 07:07 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-16 10:34 +0200
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 06:54 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-16 08:30 -0400
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 09:05 -0400
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 09:09 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 10:57 -0400
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 10:01 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 12:51 -0400
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 12:11 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-16 14:25 -0400
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-16 17:24 +0100
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-16 14:25 -0400
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-14 20:02 +0100
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-14 19:13 +0000
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-15 13:20 +0200
              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 07:01 -0500
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 08:15 -0400
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 06:40 +0000
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 10:18 +0200
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-08-14 09:06 -0400
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 09:17 -0500
          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation minforth <minforth@gmx.net> - 2025-08-14 18:54 +0200
            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 09:35 +0200
              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 09:16 -0500
                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 16:26 +0200
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-23 15:41 +0100
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 17:10 +0200
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 10:32 -0500
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-08-23 17:46 +0000
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 12:52 -0500
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 13:54 -0400
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-23 14:28 -0400
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:21 -0500
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-24 09:35 +0200
                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 10:25 -0500
                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 15:33 +0000
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:23 -0500
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 16:41 +0000
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:56 -0500
                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 17:01 +0000
                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 12:04 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 17:07 +0000
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 12:12 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-23 18:44 +0100
                                      Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 13:05 -0500
                                        Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-23 20:58 +0100
                                        Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-08-28 10:31 +0300
                                          Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-28 09:37 -0500
                                            Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-08-29 09:56 +0300
                                              Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-29 09:07 -0500
                                                Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-29 22:15 -0400
                                                Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-30 06:06 +0000
                                                  Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-30 10:08 -0500
                                                    Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-30 13:16 -0400
                                                Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-08-30 13:34 +0300
                                                  Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-30 11:22 -0500
                                                    Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-08-31 11:45 +0300
                                            Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-29 22:12 -0400
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-23 21:36 +0000
                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 16:45 -0500
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-23 19:00 -0400
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-08-24 05:53 +0000
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 07:19 -0400
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-24 12:34 +0100
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 07:52 -0400
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-24 14:25 +0100
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-24 16:44 +0100
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 11:19 -0500
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-24 16:24 +0000
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-24 17:55 +0100
                                                        My most significant progress --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 23:48 -0500
                                                          Re: My most significant progress --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 06:54 +0100
                                                          Re: My most significant progress --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-25 07:10 -0400
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 14:49 -0400
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 14:58 -0400
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-24 20:26 +0100
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 15:30 -0400
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-24 23:49 +0100
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 20:43 -0400
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-25 13:18 +0100
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 09:22 -0500
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 15:28 +0100
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 16:06 +0000
                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-08-25 17:23 +0100
                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 11:33 -0500
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 12:39 -0400
                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 12:14 -0500
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 13:22 -0400
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 17:41 +0100
                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 12:12 -0500
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 18:41 +0100
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 18:58 +0000
                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 14:49 -0500
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-25 19:57 +0000
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 20:12 +0000
                                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 15:37 -0500
                                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-26 06:14 +0000
                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 09:37 -0500
                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-26 15:48 +0100
                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-08-27 01:17 +0100
                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 20:39 -0500
                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-26 21:57 -0400
                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 16:41 -0700
                                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 18:52 -0500
                                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 17:29 -0700
                                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 20:24 -0500
                                                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 18:32 -0700
                                                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 21:06 -0500
                                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-27 22:21 -0400
                                                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-08-27 20:31 -0600
                                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 21:37 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-28 10:51 +0200
                                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-27 06:01 +0000
                                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 09:28 -0500
                                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 11:29 -0500
                                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 19:03 +0000
                                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 14:59 -0500
                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-25 19:31 -0400
                                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-26 06:21 +0000
                                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 09:46 -0500
                                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-25 19:28 -0400
                                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-25 19:18 -0400
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 05:48 +0000
                                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-25 13:04 +0100
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 14:41 -0400
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 23:36 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 06:50 +0100
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-25 07:11 -0400
                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-24 21:03 +0000
                                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 17:32 -0500
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-24 19:01 -0400
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 01:25 +0100
                                            Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 05:44 +0000
                                              Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 00:49 -0500
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 07:35 +0100
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 10:21 -0500
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 16:31 +0100
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 10:33 -0500
                                                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-25 16:43 +0100
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-25 07:12 -0400
                                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-25 15:40 +0000
                                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 10:54 -0500
                                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-08-26 06:02 +0000
                                                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 08:56 -0500
                                Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 13:17 -0400
                                  Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 12:25 -0500
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 13:39 -0400
                                    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-08-23 14:17 -0400
                      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 18:46 +0200
                        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 16:48 +0000
                          Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:57 -0500
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-17 17:33 +0200
    Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-09-01 17:20 +0200
      Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-09-01 10:44 -0500
        Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-09-01 11:58 -0400

Page 2 of 22 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 … 22  Next page →


#125140

FromMr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp>
Date2025-08-13 20:08 +0000
Message-ID<Eg6nQ.3$%Y1a.0@fx07.ams4>
In reply to#125136
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:58:58 -0500, olcott wrote:

> On 8/13/2025 2:47 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:39:27 -0500, olcott wrote:
>> 
>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing
>>>>>>> driving the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>>>>     
>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>
>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>
>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>
>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>
>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>
>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure to totally ignore
>>> every single day for three years) DD correctly simulated by HHH has
>>> different behavior than DD().
>> 
>> And that different behaviour confirms the extant Halting Problem proofs
>> are correct!
>> 
>> /Flibble
> 
> Not when the halting problem is corrected to be consistent with the way
> that Turing machines actually work.
> 
> When we assume that Turing machines do not have the psychic ability to
> see the behavior of their caller, then HHH(DD)==0 is correct.

A Halting Problem proof does not have to be predicated on Turing Machines.

/Flibble

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125143

Fromolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 15:16 -0500
Message-ID<107irrj$2lnd$12@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125140
On 8/13/2025 3:08 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:58:58 -0500, olcott wrote:
> 
>> On 8/13/2025 2:47 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:39:27 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing
>>>>>>>> driving the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>>>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>>
>>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>>
>>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>>
>>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>>
>>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure to totally ignore
>>>> every single day for three years) DD correctly simulated by HHH has
>>>> different behavior than DD().
>>>
>>> And that different behaviour confirms the extant Halting Problem proofs
>>> are correct!
>>>
>>> /Flibble
>>
>> Not when the halting problem is corrected to be consistent with the way
>> that Turing machines actually work.
>>
>> When we assume that Turing machines do not have the psychic ability to
>> see the behavior of their caller, then HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
> 
> A Halting Problem proof does not have to be predicated on Turing Machines.
> 
> /Flibble

Hence the reason why I specified this in the 100%
concrete form of C functions. This is specific enough
to prove that misconceptions are false. Without this
degree of concrete specificity misconceptions forever
remain as unresolved differences of opinion.

That Heathfield does not want to bother going
through the effort to prove to himself that he
is wrong does not prove that he is right.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125146

FromMr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp>
Date2025-08-13 20:22 +0000
Message-ID<Tt6nQ.5$QHD7.0@fx05.ams4>
In reply to#125143
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 15:16:51 -0500, olcott wrote:

> On 8/13/2025 3:08 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:58:58 -0500, olcott wrote:
>> 
>>> On 8/13/2025 2:47 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:39:27 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing
>>>>>>>>> driving the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of
>>>>>>>>> DD.
>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD
>>>>>>> correctly simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>>>
>>>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>>>
>>>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure to totally ignore
>>>>> every single day for three years) DD correctly simulated by HHH has
>>>>> different behavior than DD().
>>>>
>>>> And that different behaviour confirms the extant Halting Problem
>>>> proofs are correct!
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>> Not when the halting problem is corrected to be consistent with the
>>> way that Turing machines actually work.
>>>
>>> When we assume that Turing machines do not have the psychic ability to
>>> see the behavior of their caller, then HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
>> 
>> A Halting Problem proof does not have to be predicated on Turing
>> Machines.
>> 
>> /Flibble
> 
> Hence the reason why I specified this in the 100% concrete form of C
> functions. This is specific enough to prove that misconceptions are
> false. Without this degree of concrete specificity misconceptions
> forever remain as unresolved differences of opinion.
> 
> That Heathfield does not want to bother going through the effort to
> prove to himself that he is wrong does not prove that he is right.

No, it means there are proofs proving the Halting Problem is undecidable 
without reference to Turing Machines.

/Flibble

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125151 — Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies

Fromolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 15:30 -0500
SubjectRe: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies
Message-ID<107isl4$2lnd$14@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125146
On 8/13/2025 3:22 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 15:16:51 -0500, olcott wrote:
> 
>> On 8/13/2025 3:08 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:58:58 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:47 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:39:27 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing
>>>>>>>>>> driving the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of
>>>>>>>>>> DD.
>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD
>>>>>>>> correctly simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure to totally ignore
>>>>>> every single day for three years) DD correctly simulated by HHH has
>>>>>> different behavior than DD().
>>>>>
>>>>> And that different behaviour confirms the extant Halting Problem
>>>>> proofs are correct!
>>>>>
>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>
>>>> Not when the halting problem is corrected to be consistent with the
>>>> way that Turing machines actually work.
>>>>
>>>> When we assume that Turing machines do not have the psychic ability to
>>>> see the behavior of their caller, then HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
>>>
>>> A Halting Problem proof does not have to be predicated on Turing
>>> Machines.
>>>
>>> /Flibble
>>
>> Hence the reason why I specified this in the 100% concrete form of C
>> functions. This is specific enough to prove that misconceptions are
>> false. Without this degree of concrete specificity misconceptions
>> forever remain as unresolved differences of opinion.
>>
>> That Heathfield does not want to bother going through the effort to
>> prove to himself that he is wrong does not prove that he is right.
> 
> No, it means there are proofs proving the Halting Problem is undecidable
> without reference to Turing Machines.
> 
> /Flibble

None of the conventional proofs prove halting
undecidability no matter how they do it.

This also includes the membership algorithm for
recursively enumerable languages that depends
on the halting problem proof result.

This also includes Rice's Theorem that depends
on the halting problem proof result.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125155 — Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies

FromMr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp>
Date2025-08-13 20:35 +0000
SubjectRe: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies
Message-ID<7G6nQ.3305$9P93.2650@fx15.ams4>
In reply to#125151
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 15:30:28 -0500, olcott wrote:

> On 8/13/2025 3:22 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 15:16:51 -0500, olcott wrote:
>> 
>>> On 8/13/2025 3:08 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:58:58 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:47 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:39:27 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing
>>>>>>>>>>> driving the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of
>>>>>>>>>>> DD.
>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD
>>>>>>>>> correctly simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure to totally
>>>>>>> ignore every single day for three years) DD correctly simulated by
>>>>>>> HHH has different behavior than DD().
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that different behaviour confirms the extant Halting Problem
>>>>>> proofs are correct!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>
>>>>> Not when the halting problem is corrected to be consistent with the
>>>>> way that Turing machines actually work.
>>>>>
>>>>> When we assume that Turing machines do not have the psychic ability
>>>>> to see the behavior of their caller, then HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
>>>>
>>>> A Halting Problem proof does not have to be predicated on Turing
>>>> Machines.
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>> Hence the reason why I specified this in the 100% concrete form of C
>>> functions. This is specific enough to prove that misconceptions are
>>> false. Without this degree of concrete specificity misconceptions
>>> forever remain as unresolved differences of opinion.
>>>
>>> That Heathfield does not want to bother going through the effort to
>>> prove to himself that he is wrong does not prove that he is right.
>> 
>> No, it means there are proofs proving the Halting Problem is
>> undecidable without reference to Turing Machines.
>> 
>> /Flibble
> 
> None of the conventional proofs prove halting undecidability no matter
> how they do it.

An assertion not based in reality much like all your other baseless 
assertions.

/Flibble

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125142

Fromcross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Date2025-08-13 20:13 +0000
Message-ID<107irll$mco$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to#125136
In article <107iqq2$2lnd$9@dont-email.me>,
olcott  <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>Not when the halting problem is corrected to be
>consistent with the way that Turing machines actually
>work.
>
>When we assume that Turing machines do not have the
>psychic ability to see the behavior of their caller,
>then HHH(DD)==0 is correct.

Well, the REAL question is whether the State of California has
determined if HHH(DD) has chemicals that may be harmful to
children or pregnant people.

	- Dan C.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125153

Fromdbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 16:33 -0400
Message-ID<107isrm$3mbs$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125136
On 8/13/2025 3:58 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 2:47 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:39:27 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing driving
>>>>>>> the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>
>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>
>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>
>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>
>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>
>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure to totally ignore
>>> every single day for three years) DD correctly simulated by HHH has
>>> different behavior than DD().
>>
>> And that different behaviour confirms the extant Halting Problem proofs
>> are correct!
>>
>> /Flibble
> 
> Not when the halting problem is corrected to be
> consistent with the way that Turing machines actually
> work.

A prerequisite for doing that is coming up with a new term to describe 
what "halting problem" previously referred to.

So what term would you use instead of "halting problem" to describe the 
issue of creating a Turing machine that performs the following mapping, 
and similarly what term would you use instead of "halt decider" for a 
Turning machine that perform the below mapping?


(<X>,Y) maps to 1 if and only if X(Y) halts when executed directly
(<X>,Y) maps to 0 if and only if X(Y) does not halt when executed directly

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#125149

Fromdbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 16:28 -0400
Message-ID<107isgh$3mbs$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125130
On 8/13/2025 3:39 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing driving
>>>>> the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>
>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been invisible
>>> to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>
>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
> 
> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
> 
>> HHH just needs
>> to be passed a *description* of DD 
> 
> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure
> to totally ignore every single day for three years)
> DD correctly simulated by HHH

Is not what anyone cares about.  We care about DD correctly simulated by 
UTM.

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#125158

Fromolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 15:39 -0500
Message-ID<107it6s$2lnd$16@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125149
On 8/13/2025 3:28 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 3:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing driving
>>>>>> the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>
>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>
>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>
>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been invisible
>>>> to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>
>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>
>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>
>>> HHH just needs
>>> to be passed a *description* of DD 
>>
>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure
>> to totally ignore every single day for three years)
>> DD correctly simulated by HHH
> 
> Is not what anyone cares about.  We care about DD correctly simulated by 
> UTM.

If HHH was a UTM then HHH(DD) would never return.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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#125161

Fromdbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 16:44 -0400
Message-ID<107ites$3mbs$6@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125158
On 8/13/2025 4:39 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 3:28 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 3:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing driving
>>>>>>> the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>
>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been 
>>>>> invisible
>>>>> to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>
>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>
>>> So you expect HHH to have psychic ability?
>>>
>>>> HHH just needs
>>>> to be passed a *description* of DD 
>>>
>>> Yet I proved (and everyone consistently makes sure
>>> to totally ignore every single day for three years)
>>> DD correctly simulated by HHH
>>
>> Is not what anyone cares about.  We care about DD correctly simulated 
>> by UTM.
> 
> If HHH was a UTM 
Then you're changing the input.

Changing the input is not allowed.

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#125290

Fromjoes <noreply@example.org>
Date2025-08-14 09:34 +0000
Message-ID<107kaif$csg3$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125158
Am Wed, 13 Aug 2025 15:39:56 -0500 schrieb olcott:
> On 8/13/2025 3:28 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 3:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2025 2:32 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:27:48 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 2:14 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:07:13 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there is nothing
>>>>>>> driving the behavior of DD after HHH aborts its simulation of DD.
>>>>>> False, main() is calling DD().
>>>>>>
>>>>> More precisely there is nothing driving the behavior of DD correctly
>>>>> simulated by HHH after HHH quits simulating DD.
>>>>> Also the directly executed DD (caller of HHH) has always been
>>>>> invisible to this HHH, hence not in the scope of this HHH.
>>>>
>>>> The directly executed DD doesn't have to be visible to HHH,
>>>> HHH just needs to be passed a *description* of DD
>>>
>>> Yet I proved DD correctly simulated by HHH
>> 
>> Is not what anyone cares about.  We care about DD correctly simulated
>> by UTM.
> 
> If HHH was a UTM then HHH(DD) would never return.
Yes, but HHH is not an UTM. DD does not call an UTM. An UTM simulating
DD, which calls a partial simulator HHH, will halt, in line with
direct execution. You keep modifying what DD calls.

-- 
Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

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#125147

FromRichard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Date2025-08-13 21:25 +0100
Message-ID<107iscm$3mm4$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125120
Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?

On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:

<snip - count chevrons for attribs>

>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>
>> Why should I?
>>
>> (a) It's your bug to find.
> 
> You will not accept that there is no bug until
> you look for this yourself and find none.

You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it 
might be; I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real 
bug is in the design. Hence (b) below.

>> (b) Even if you find it, it won't matter, for reasons I 
>> outlined (again!) in my last reply.
>> Why should anyone even bother to look? 
> 
> Because it proves that the counter-example input
> to the halting problem is decidable when one uses
> a different criterion measure.

But that's not your choice to make. Either it halts or it 
doesn't. That is the only criterion, and the only measure 
available is halts vs doesn't halt.

> Until this is understood it cannot be understood
> the the original criterion measure is incorrect.

That's not your call. The original question was whether a program 
can be written that is capable of determining for any given 
arbitrary program whether it halts. And we already know the 
answer: no.

That is what Turing proved. If you want to attack his proof, 
that's the question you have to tackle. Calling it "incorrect" is 
just weaseling out, but it's just your word against a remarkably 
clear and simple proof.

>> No matter what your trace says, you still have only three 
>> choices - return halt (wrong!), return loop (wrong!) or don't 
>> return (wrong!). Whichever you choose, it's the wrong solution, 
>> even if your trace is flawless.
>>
> 
> Or return a value corresponding to the actual behavior
> that the input actually specifies as measured by DD
> correctly simulated by HHH.

No, HHH must report on the behaviour of the function it's asked 
about - DD. Inspection shows that whatever HHH returns is wrong, 
so HHH fails in its task.

>>> When HHH(DD) is executed that this begins simulating
>>> DD that calls HHH(DD) that begins simulating DD that
>>> calls HHH(DD) again.
>>
>> You keep saying that, but you never stop to think what happens 
>> when HHH /stops/ executing.
>>
> 
> Nothing happens because all of the recursive simulations
> were entirely driven by HHH simulating its own DD.

No, DD kicks it off. Here's the code, in case you forgot what it 
looks like:

int DD()
{
   int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
   if (Halt_Status)
     HERE: goto HERE;
   return Halt_Status;
}

I can plug this into a main() easily enough:

int main(void)
{
   int status = DD();
   printf("DD returns %d\n", status);
   return 0;
}

Since we know what HHH returns, we can even supply that:

int HHH(ptr P)
{
   return 0;
}

It doesn't take much more work to knock those into an executable, 
which will demonstrate beyond doubt that HH got it wrong.

> How far can a car drive up a hill after it runs out of gas?

What's the difference between a wrong answer?

>> Your trace fails to show the stack unwinding after HHH has 
>> reached its decision, all simulation is concluded, and DD 
>> regains control at last.
>>
> 
> Yes it does because the DD stack cannot possibly
> unwind when HHH aborts its simulation of DD.

Then HHH fails to report, and fails to be a decider.

>>>> Conversely, if HHH instead returns 1 to reflect this, DD will 
>>>> instead enter into its loop, again giving the lie to HHH's 
>>>> return code.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is not the behavior of the input.
>>
>> How do you know? You don't simulate that far.
>>
> 
> Yet another person that believes a simulation of a non-terminating
> input is only correct when it reaches its non-existent end.

No, I'm yet another person who believes a "simulation" that gets 
the wrong answer can hardly qualify as a simulation.

> Maybe the problem is (as you have hinted) that you
> don't have any actual programming experience?

It's a thought.

>> I'm not asking HHH to tell me anything but whether DD halts.
>>
> 
> Then you cannot be talking about the directly executed
> DD() in main that calls HHH(DD) because no termination
> analyzer can possibly see its own caller.

So you concede that no termination analyser can analyse every 
possible program, QED.

> The DD stack cannot possibly unwind because there
> is nothing driving the behavior of DD after HHH
> aborts its simulation of DD.

You aborted the simulation, not the program.

int main(void)
{
   int status = DD();
   printf("DD returns %d\n", status);
   return 0;
}

>>> ** As long as HHH has access to an x86 emulator that
>>> provides the cooperative multi-taking infrastructure
>>> required to implement this.
>>
>> It doesn't matter. What happens when HHH returns?
>>
> 
> int main()
> {
>    Output("Input_Halts = ", HHH(DD));

      printf("DD reports "); fflush(stdout);
      printf("%d\n", DD());
      return 0;
   }

>>>> Just as you are assured that you are self-evidently correct, 
>>>> so I am sure that you self-evidently are mistaken. The x86 
>>>> language has NOTHING to say on the correctness of your code; 
>>>
>>> It has everything to say about the correctness of DD
>>> emulated by HHH.
>>
>> Then you can save yourself a lot of clocks with this hack
>>
>> int HHH(ptr P)
>> {
>>    return 0;
>> }
>>
> 
> HHH works correctly with an infinite set of
> inputs, Your suggestion would break that.

I've only seen it tried on one, and it gets that wrong.

>>> I am shocked that everyone here thinks that recursive
>>> emulation is incomprehensibly more difficult to understand
>>> than ordinary recursion.
>>
>> It isn't hard to understand. It's just irrelevant to the 
>> question of whether HHH returns the correct value (which it 
>> doesn't, by the way).
 >
> Unless you understand that
> a termination analyzer only reports on the actual
> behavior actually specified by its input and

HHH's input is DD. The actual behaviour it exhibits is to 
confound HHH.

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#125163

Fromolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 15:49 -0500
Message-ID<107itol$2lnd$18@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125147
On 8/13/2025 3:25 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?
> 
> On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> 
> <snip - count chevrons for attribs>
> 
>>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>>
>>> Why should I?
>>>
>>> (a) It's your bug to find.
>>
>> You will not accept that there is no bug until
>> you look for this yourself and find none.
> 
> You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it might be; 
> I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real bug is in the 
> design. Hence (b) below.
> 

You are the one trying to get away with saying
that DD is not correctly simulated by HHH.

As long as HHH emulates the instructions of DD according
to the semantics of the x86 language then there is no bug
in the code or anywhere else with the emulation of DD by HHH.

Since your foundational error is right here no sense
looking at any other points until this one is addressed.



-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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#125165

Fromdbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 16:51 -0400
Message-ID<107itsv$3mbs$8@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125163
On 8/13/2025 4:49 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 3:25 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?
>>
>> On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>
>> <snip - count chevrons for attribs>
>>
>>>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>>>
>>>> Why should I?
>>>>
>>>> (a) It's your bug to find.
>>>
>>> You will not accept that there is no bug until
>>> you look for this yourself and find none.
>>
>> You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it might 
>> be; I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real bug is in 
>> the design. Hence (b) below.
>>
> 
> You are the one trying to get away with saying
> that DD is not correctly simulated by HHH.
> 
> As long as HHH emulates the instructions of DD according
> to the semantics of the x86 language then there is no bug
> in the code or anywhere else with the emulation of DD by HHH.

Which it doesn't because it aborts in violation of semantics of the x86 
language.  So the last instruction that was emulated was not emulated 
correctly.

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#125170

Fromolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 16:06 -0500
Message-ID<107iuo8$2lnd$21@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125165
On 8/13/2025 3:51 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 4:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 3:25 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?
>>>
>>> On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip - count chevrons for attribs>
>>>
>>>>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>>>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should I?
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) It's your bug to find.
>>>>
>>>> You will not accept that there is no bug until
>>>> you look for this yourself and find none.
>>>
>>> You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it might 
>>> be; I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real bug is in 
>>> the design. Hence (b) below.
>>>
>>
>> You are the one trying to get away with saying
>> that DD is not correctly simulated by HHH.
>>
>> As long as HHH emulates the instructions of DD according
>> to the semantics of the x86 language then there is no bug
>> in the code or anywhere else with the emulation of DD by HHH.
> 
> Which it doesn't because it aborts in violation of semantics of the x86 
> language.  So the last instruction that was emulated was not emulated 
> correctly.

When HHH(DD) does report on the actual behavior that its
actual input actually specifies as measured by DD correctly
simulated by HHH that includes that HHH does simulate an
instance of itself simulating an instance of DD that does
call yet another instance of HHH(DD) then HHH(DD)==0 is
proven to be correct.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125171

Fromdbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 17:08 -0400
Message-ID<107ius1$3mbs$9@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125170
On 8/13/2025 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 3:51 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 4:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2025 3:25 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?
>>>>
>>>> On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip - count chevrons for attribs>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>>>>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why should I?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (a) It's your bug to find.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will not accept that there is no bug until
>>>>> you look for this yourself and find none.
>>>>
>>>> You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it might 
>>>> be; I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real bug is 
>>>> in the design. Hence (b) below.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are the one trying to get away with saying
>>> that DD is not correctly simulated by HHH.
>>>
>>> As long as HHH emulates the instructions of DD according
>>> to the semantics of the x86 language then there is no bug
>>> in the code or anywhere else with the emulation of DD by HHH.
>>
>> Which it doesn't because it aborts in violation of semantics of the 
>> x86 language.  So the last instruction that was emulated was not 
>> emulated correctly.
> 
> When HHH(DD) does report on the actual behavior that its
> actual input actually specifies as measured by DD correctly
> simulated by HHH 

Then you don't have a measure because DD is not correctly simulated by 
HHH because it aborts in violation of semantics of the x86 language.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125173

Fromolcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 16:09 -0500
Message-ID<107iuui$2lnd$23@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125171
On 8/13/2025 4:08 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 3:51 PM, dbush wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2025 4:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/13/2025 3:25 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>> Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip - count chevrons for attribs>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>>>>>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why should I?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (a) It's your bug to find.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You will not accept that there is no bug until
>>>>>> you look for this yourself and find none.
>>>>>
>>>>> You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it 
>>>>> might be; I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real 
>>>>> bug is in the design. Hence (b) below.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are the one trying to get away with saying
>>>> that DD is not correctly simulated by HHH.
>>>>
>>>> As long as HHH emulates the instructions of DD according
>>>> to the semantics of the x86 language then there is no bug
>>>> in the code or anywhere else with the emulation of DD by HHH.
>>>
>>> Which it doesn't because it aborts in violation of semantics of the 
>>> x86 language.  So the last instruction that was emulated was not 
>>> emulated correctly.
>>
>> When HHH(DD) does report on the actual behavior that its
>> actual input actually specifies as measured by DD correctly
>> simulated by HHH 
> 
> Then you don't have a measure because DD is not correctly simulated by 
> HHH because it aborts in violation of semantics of the x86 language.

When HHH(DD) does report on the actual behavior that its
actual input actually specifies as measured by DD correctly
simulated by HHH that includes that HHH does simulate an
instance of itself simulating an instance of DD that does
call yet another instance of HHH(DD) then HHH(DD)==0 is
proven to be correct.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125175

Fromdbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-13 17:13 -0400
Message-ID<107iv50$3mbs$11@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125173
On 8/13/2025 5:09 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/13/2025 4:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 8/13/2025 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2025 3:51 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 8/13/2025 4:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/13/2025 3:25 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> Blimey, olcott - 413 lines! Learn to snip, why don't you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/08/2025 20:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/13/2025 1:20 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip - count chevrons for attribs>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Point out the instruction that was emulated
>>>>>>>>> incorrectly or acknowledge that you cannot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why should I?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (a) It's your bug to find.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You will not accept that there is no bug until
>>>>>>> you look for this yourself and find none.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You assume the bug, if any, is in the code. It isn't. Well, it 
>>>>>> might be; I'd be very surprised if it were bug-free. But the real 
>>>>>> bug is in the design. Hence (b) below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are the one trying to get away with saying
>>>>> that DD is not correctly simulated by HHH.
>>>>>
>>>>> As long as HHH emulates the instructions of DD according
>>>>> to the semantics of the x86 language then there is no bug
>>>>> in the code or anywhere else with the emulation of DD by HHH.
>>>>
>>>> Which it doesn't because it aborts in violation of semantics of the 
>>>> x86 language.  So the last instruction that was emulated was not 
>>>> emulated correctly.
>>>
>>> When HHH(DD) does report on the actual behavior that its
>>> actual input actually specifies as measured by DD correctly
>>> simulated by HHH 
>>
>> Then you don't have a measure because DD is not correctly simulated by 
>> HHH because it aborts in violation of semantics of the x86 language.
> 
> << irrelevant copy-paste response >>
> 

A copy-paste response that is unrelated to what you responded to is less 
that no rebuttal, and is in fact you admission that what was responded 
to is correct.  So...

Let the record show that Peter Olcott has admitted that HHH violates the 
semantics of the x86 language by aborting is simulation, and that DD is 
therefore NOT correctly simulated by HHH.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#125178

FromRichard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Date2025-08-13 22:19 +0100
Message-ID<107ivhb$4b3k$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#125175
On 13/08/2025 22:13, dbush wrote:

<snip>

> Let the record show that Peter Olcott has admitted that HHH 
> violates the semantics of the x86 language by aborting is 
> simulation, and that DD is therefore NOT correctly simulated by HHH.

Let the record further show that this is self-evident from DD's 
source code.

Clearly, whatever HHH returns is wrong. Why has it taken Olcott 
22 years not to notice this?

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#125183

Fromwij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-14 06:43 +0800
Message-ID<ed74e471674298b109cb37c220d0e7ff231adf15.camel@gmail.com>
In reply to#125178
On Wed, 2025-08-13 at 22:19 +0100, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 13/08/2025 22:13, dbush wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Let the record show that Peter Olcott has admitted that HHH 
> > violates the semantics of the x86 language by aborting is 
> > simulation, and that DD is therefore NOT correctly simulated by HHH.
> 
> Let the record further show that this is self-evident from DD's 
> source code.
> 
> Clearly, whatever HHH returns is wrong. Why has it taken Olcott 
> 22 years not to notice this?

Selective cogition blind from strong bias ,or unconditional belief.
(That is just mild saying. Olcott is souless, his is a machine)

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