Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.theory > #107999

Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts?

From Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts?
Date 2024-06-29 10:47 +0300
Organization -
Message-ID <v5oe76$3qvno$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <v5h2vs$24jbd$3@dont-email.me> <v5j3nn$2km3o$1@dont-email.me> <v5kfat$2rv8r$2@dont-email.me> <v5ludv$3980v$1@dont-email.me> <v5mjjj$3cibm$5@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 2024-06-28 15:07:30 +0000, olcott said:

> On 6/28/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-27 19:42:21 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 6/27/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-06-26 12:53:16 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/26/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Obviously false. The meaning of H(P,P) is determined by the text of H.
>>>>>> The meaning is fully determined by the complier that complies to the
>>>>>> x86 code and the semantics of x86. If one simulator interpretes the
>>>>>> x86 code differently from another simulator then one of them does not
>>>>>> follow the x86 semantics and is therefore incorrect.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>> [00002172] 55               push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002173] 8bec             mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000       push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff       call 000015d2 ; call H0(DDD)
>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404           add esp,+04
>>>>> [00002182] 5d               pop ebp
>>>>> [00002183] c3               ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>> 
>>>>> The call from DDD to
>>>>> the x86 emulator H0(DDD) at machine address 0000217a
>>>>> when DDD is correctly emulated by H0 cannot possibly return.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When DDD is correctly emulated by H0 then H0 must emulate itself
>>>>> emulating DDD. This derives recursive emulation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When DDD is correctly emulated by H1 then H1 NEED NOT emulate itself
>>>>> emulating DDD. This DOES NOT derive recursive emulation.
>>>> 
>>>> When DDD is emulated by H1 then H1 needs to the call to H0 and the
>>>> instructions of H0 which emulate DDD and its call to H0 and a recorsive
>>>> emulation follows. If H1 emulates correctly it must not emulate the
>>>> emulation of the instruction at 217f. Unless, of course, you lied
>>>> about H0.
>>> 
>>> You contradict yourself.
>> 
>> You have not shown any self-contradiction in my words. There is no
>> obvious self-contradiction but maybe there is some less obvious
>> mistake.
>> 
>>> *Here is what actually happens*
>>> 
>>> _DDD()
>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0
>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>> 
>>> _main()
>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000219a] e863f3ffff call 00001502 ; call HHH1(DDD)
>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax
>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>> [000021b0] eb04       jmp 000021b6
>>> [000021b2] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>> [000021b4] eb02       jmp 000021b8
>>> [000021b6] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>> [000021b8] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [000021b9] c3         ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0040) [000021b9]
>>> 
>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>> [00002192][00103826][00000000] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002193][00103826][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002195][00103822][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000219a][0010381e][0000219f] e863f3ffff call 00001502 ; call HHH1(DDD)
>>> New slave_stack at:1038ca
>>> 
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138d2
>>> [00002172][001138c2][001138c6] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002173][001138c2][001138c6] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002175][001138be][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][001138ba][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0(DDD)
>>> New slave_stack at:14e2f2
>>> 
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e2fa
>>> [00002172][0015e2ea][0015e2ee] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002173][0015e2ea][0015e2ee] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002175][0015e2e6][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][0015e2e2][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0(DDD)
>>> New slave_stack at:198d1a
>>> [00002172][001a8d12][001a8d16] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002173][001a8d12][001a8d16] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002175][001a8d0e][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][001a8d0a][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0(DDD)
>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>> 
>>> [0000217f][001138c2][001138c6] 83c404     add esp,+04   ; return to DDD
>>> [00002182][001138c6][000015b7] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [00002183][001138ca][0003a980] c3         ret           ; return to main
>>> [0000219f][00103826][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>> [000021a2][00103822][00000001] 50         push eax
>>> [000021a3][0010381e][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>> [000021a8][0010381e][00000743] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>> Input_Halts = 1
>>> [000021ad][00103826][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>> [000021b0][00103826][00000000] eb04       jmp 000021b6
>>> [000021b6][00103826][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>> [000021b8][0010382a][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [000021b9][0010382e][00000000] c3         ret
>>> Number of Instructions Executed(352835) == 5266 Pages
>> 
>> Is the program at 15d2 H0 or HHH0?
>> 
> 
> I have standardized the naming conventions.
> H0 and HHH0 are now called HHH.

In which sense the names H0 and HHH0 are non-standard?

-- 
Mikko

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 09:31 -0500
  Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 10:42 -0400
    Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:16 -0500
      Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 11:29 -0400
        Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 11:12 -0500
          Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 13:08 -0400
      Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-22 16:03 +0000
        Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 11:18 -0500
          Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 13:13 -0400
            Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 12:29 -0500
              Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 14:43 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 13:49 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 14:55 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 14:03 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 15:19 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 14:35 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 15:43 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 14:49 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 16:08 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 18:59 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 20:19 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 22:37 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 07:28 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 08:36 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 14:22 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-22 20:01 +0000
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 18:57 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 20:07 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 19:09 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-22 20:26 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 22:46 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 07:28 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 08:37 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-23 14:22 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-25 09:20 +0000
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-23 12:50 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 08:25 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-24 10:31 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 08:52 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:20 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-25 12:42 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 08:29 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 21:47 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-26 10:41 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 07:25 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-27 10:02 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 12:18 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-27 19:57 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-28 11:55 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 09:54 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-28 23:49 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-29 10:44 +0300
          Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-25 20:41 +0000
            Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 16:24 -0500
              Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 21:47 -0400
              Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-26 10:46 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 07:45 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 19:41 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-27 10:06 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 14:19 -0500
              Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-26 08:19 +0000
  Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-23 12:42 +0300
    Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 08:23 -0500
      Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-24 10:32 +0300
        Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 08:50 -0500
          Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-06-24 16:03 +0200
            Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-25 12:48 +0300
              Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 08:19 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-25 21:47 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-26 10:54 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 07:53 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-26 19:41 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-27 10:18 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 14:42 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-27 19:57 -0400
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-28 12:06 +0300
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 10:07 -0500
                Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-29 10:47 +0300
          Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-24 19:21 -0400
          Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-25 12:47 +0300
      Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts? joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-25 08:54 +0000

csiph-web