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Groups > comp.theory > #118578
| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem |
| Date | 2025-05-11 16:05 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <87o6vy4ulc.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink) |
| References | (8 earlier) <bV3UP.101097$0ia.1168@fx11.ams4> <vvqkff$gldn$13@dont-email.me> <WH4UP.229898$_Npd.172992@fx01.ams4> <vvqm03$i3hn$1@dont-email.me> <g55UP.688178$4AM6.545580@fx17.ams4> |
Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> writes:
> On Sun, 11 May 2025 18:15:47 +0100, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/2025 17:59, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>> it is impossible to obtain a halting result
>>
>>
>> That sure looks like a concession that it's impossible to devise an
>> algorithm that will produce a halting result.
>>
>> Well done. We got you there in the end.
>
> No. The reason why it is impossible to obtain a halting result for
> pathological input is not the reason proposed by Turing (i.e. self-
> referential diagonalization), it is impossible to obtain a halting result
> for pathological input because the self-referential conflation of decider
> and input is a category error that prevents us from performing
> diagonalization.
Is it possible to determine whether a given input is "pathological" or not?
> To usefully advance research in this area pathological input needs to be
> excluded from the set of programs that can be analysed by a decider.
Can this exclusion be performed reliably and consistently?
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 13:21 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 15:44 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 14:48 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 16:25 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 15:34 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 16:47 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 15:49 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 10:56 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:01 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-05-11 16:04 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 11:51 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 16:05 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 11:49 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:54 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:14 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 18:24 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 13:34 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:44 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 13:49 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:54 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 14:10 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 13:18 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 14:21 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 19:27 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 16:59 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:06 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 17:15 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 12:19 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 18:26 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 17:33 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 18:48 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 18:15 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 17:26 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 18:31 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 16:05 -0700
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 18:14 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 19:45 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 19:41 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 20:43 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 21:13 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 20:48 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 07:40 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-05-12 09:29 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 19:16 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 17:13 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 15:58 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 15:55 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 21:42 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 16:45 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 19:22 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 19:19 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 02:07 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 20:12 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 02:34 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:05 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 03:23 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:30 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 22:34 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:39 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 22:42 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:53 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 22:54 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:57 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 22:59 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:39 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:38 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-13 10:58 +0300
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 07:47 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 10:46 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:48 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:03 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 12:05 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:44 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:43 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 07:43 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 21:37 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:09 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 03:37 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 20:11 -0700
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 22:32 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 05:13 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:48 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 05:12 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 21:37 -0700
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 05:58 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-13 22:22 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-13 22:45 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 07:51 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 10:48 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:54 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:51 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 11:29 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 18:03 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-05-12 17:32 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:52 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:56 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 18:58 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-05-13 01:08 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 06:57 +0800
Truthmaker Maximalism and pathological self-reference olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 18:15 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and pathological self-reference wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 07:28 +0800
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and pathological self-reference olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 18:39 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 15:54 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-12 11:59 +0300
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 10:49 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 17:11 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 15:48 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 10:22 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 21:59 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-13 11:18 +0300
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-11 14:59 +0000
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-11 16:25 +0100
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 16:00 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-11 15:42 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-12 11:53 +0300
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 10:16 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:21 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:09 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 12:15 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 11:43 -0500
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 12:49 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 22:04 -0400
Re: Flibble’s Leap: Why Behavioral Divergence Implies a Type Distinction in the Halting Problem Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-13 11:27 +0300
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