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The Dundee Effect

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  The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-11-25 03:39 -0800
    Re: The Dundee Effect "Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-11-25 14:15 +0000
      Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-11-26 02:08 -0800
    Re: The Dundee Effect Calum <com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat> - 2013-11-26 23:03 +0000
      Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-11-26 16:14 -0800
        Re: The Dundee Effect jgh@mdfs.net - 2013-11-27 07:49 -0800
          Re: The Dundee Effect philicorda <philicorda@sorrynospam.com> - 2013-11-30 17:29 +0000
            Re: The Dundee Effect "Paul E Collins" <equi@cl4.invalid> - 2013-11-30 20:56 +0000
              Re: The Dundee Effect "Chris Young" <chris.usenet@mail-filter.com> - 2013-12-01 14:24 +0000
              Re: The Dundee Effect Andrew Owen <aowen10@mail.bbk.ac.uk> - 2013-12-06 12:41 +0000
          Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 16:13 -0800
          Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 16:15 -0800
            Re: The Dundee Effect John Elliott <jce@seasip.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-07 18:23 +0000
              Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 16:34 -0800
              Re: The Dundee Effect Andrew Owen <aowen10@mail.bbk.ac.uk> - 2013-12-09 21:44 +0000
                Re: The Dundee Effect John Elliott <jce@seasip.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 23:05 +0000
                  Re: The Dundee Effect John Elliott <jce@seasip.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 23:19 +0000
                    Re: The Dundee Effect Andrew Owen <aowen10@mail.bbk.ac.uk> - 2013-12-10 00:03 +0000
                    Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-12-10 03:44 -0800
    Re: The Dundee Effect Gerard Sweeney <gerardNO.Spamsweeney@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-27 21:51 +0000
      Re: The Dundee Effect Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 15:59 -0800

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#2625 — The Dundee Effect

Fifteen years ago, I produced the first freely available and downloadable assembly listing of the Sectrum ROM and then set about commenting it.
One bloke who helped out was a Mike Dailly who I credited at the end of the file.

Now a certain ZX Spectrum programmer named "Mike Dailly" from Dundee was doing rather well at the time with the game "Lemmings" available for the ZX Spectrum, Amiga and many more.
He went on to develop Grand Theft Auto including its latest incarnation "GTA V" developed in Edinburgh.

David Jones and Mike started DMA Designs in Dundee where the Timex Factory, making ZX Spectrums, had a massive effect on local computer clubs and University courses.

I always wanted to be games programmer but after 30 years haven't thought of an idea. I prefer 'Pangolins' and 'Breakout' to modern stuff but this BBC Radio interview with Mike and the DMA Designs crew shows the far-reaching effect of the Timex-Sinclair partnership.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbegRLQSuG0

-- 
G.

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#2626

Most of the later Spectrums seem to have had made in Portugal on their 
bottoms though.

When I say later, I'm talking 48k rubber keyed ones here.
 Brian

-- 
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is  active
"Geoff Wearmouth" <gwearmouth@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:5c7a69e1-b748-4660-b306-591fd4f66234@googlegroups.com...
Fifteen years ago, I produced the first freely available and downloadable 
assembly listing of the Sectrum ROM and then set about commenting it.
One bloke who helped out was a Mike Dailly who I credited at the end of the 
file.

Now a certain ZX Spectrum programmer named "Mike Dailly" from Dundee was 
doing rather well at the time with the game "Lemmings" available for the ZX 
Spectrum, Amiga and many more.
He went on to develop Grand Theft Auto including its latest incarnation "GTA 
V" developed in Edinburgh.

David Jones and Mike started DMA Designs in Dundee where the Timex Factory, 
making ZX Spectrums, had a massive effect on local computer clubs and 
University courses.

I always wanted to be games programmer but after 30 years haven't thought of 
an idea. I prefer 'Pangolins' and 'Breakout' to modern stuff but this BBC 
Radio interview with Mike and the DMA Designs crew shows the far-reaching 
effect of the Timex-Sinclair partnership.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbegRLQSuG0

-- 
G. 

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#2627

As a fellow bottom inspector, I remember when Spectrums from Portugal and Korea made inroads.
However the links with Timex were established early and had a huge worldwide impact over 35 years.

Timex began making the second batch of ZX80s in 1980 and then made most of the ZX81s including the initial models exported to the US.
As the BBC Scotland interview says it was these black and white computers that gave the Scottish programming industry its start.
By the time Sinclair went titsup the biggest creditor was Timex with AB Electronics in Wales and Thorn EMI also both threatening Research with liquidation.

Amstrad saved the day and, as a sop, gave an order to Timex, but they had already done a deal to manufacture all Spectrums in China and would soon begin rubbishing the Scottish workers.

The DMA Design interviews were interesting and this 1993 video by Mike Dailly puts faces to the voices and contains the best joke I've heard this year from Grand Theft Auto boss David Jones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cdR5-wurs

--
G. 
Assembly Listing: http://www.wearmouth.demon.co.uk/

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#2629

On 25/11/2013 11:39, Geoff Wearmouth wrote:

> Now a certain ZX Spectrum programmer named "Mike Dailly" from Dundee was doing rather
well at the time with the game "Lemmings" available for the ZX Spectrum, 
Amiga and many more.
> He went on to develop Grand Theft Auto including its latest incarnation "GTA V"
developed in Edinburgh.

AFAIK Mike Dailly had nothing to do with GTA V. He only worked on the 
first two and left DMA in 1999, according to his website: 
<http://www.javalemmings.com/miked/aboutme.htm>

-- 
Xbox: GallusNumpty  Steam: scottishwildcat

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#2630

Thanks for the update. Mike has an impressive portfolio. 
I'm not really into pulling teeth (a disturbing mission in GTA V)

Mike sent me a commented section of the Spectrum ROM in January 1998 but I didn't know of his status.
My 6502 assembler was limited to dabbling on my brother's BBC B.

I see that, like me, his eyes were opened by an assembly listing and spookily my first submitted program was a character editor also published in 1986.

http://archive.org/stream/popular-computing-weekly-1986-05-29/PopularComputing_Weekly_Issue_1986-05-29#page/n29/mode/2up

The similarities end there.

I like his other videos too.

--
G.

 

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#2633

Geoff Wearmouth wrote:
> I see that, like me, his eyes were opened by an assembly listing
> and spookily my first submitted program was a character editor
> also published in 1986.
> http://archive.org/stream/popular-computing-weekly-1986-05-29/PopularComputing_Weekly_Issue_1986-05-29#page/n29/mode/2up

Ah, yes. Completely context-free list of DATA statements, with
only a whole-listing checksum, and of course, a crucial single
digit that falls off the bottom of one page and you only notice
is at the top of the next page by accident. ;)

jgh

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#2640

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 07:49:14 -0800, jgh wrote:

> Geoff Wearmouth wrote:
>> I see that, like me, his eyes were opened by an assembly listing and
>> spookily my first submitted program was a character editor also
>> published in 1986.
>> http://archive.org/stream/popular-computing-weekly-1986-05-29/
PopularComputing_Weekly_Issue_1986-05-29#page/n29/mode/2up
> 
> Ah, yes. Completely context-free list of DATA statements, with only a
> whole-listing checksum, and of course, a crucial single digit that falls
> off the bottom of one page and you only notice is at the top of the next
> page by accident. ;)

I seem to remember a type in for my ZX81 that was all REM statements full 
of graphics characters. When that was completed, it displayed some more 
characters on the screen, and I had to enter some more code without 
clearing the screen, or using LIST, or it would forget it all!

I can't quite remember what it was. May have been 1K chess or draughts or 
something.


> 
> jgh

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#2642

On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 17:29:11 -0000, philicorda  
<philicorda@sorrynospam.com> wrote:

> I seem to remember a type in for my ZX81 that was all REM statements  
> full of graphics characters. When that was completed, it displayed some  
> more characters on the screen, and I had to enter some more code without  
> clearing the screen, or using LIST, or it would forget it all!

My family had "The Rainbow Book of BASIC Programs", and were baffled at  
the time as to why one of them gave an error. It was down to one of the  
bugs in the 128 BASIC interpreter, where IF B<A+5 gets silently changed to  
IF BA<+5 (which is still a valid line, but fails at runtime because there  
is no variable called BA).

Relatedly, I was just messing about with it and found that you can't enter  
the line at all if the buggy shift would leave it invalid, e.g. IF  
A+1>B+1. (You could use brackets, of course.)

Eq.

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#2643

On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 20:56:03 -0000 da kidz on comp.sys.sinclair were rappin'
to MC Paul E Collins:

> My family had "The Rainbow Book of BASIC Programs", and were baffled at  
> the time as to why one of them gave an error. It was down to one of the  
> bugs in the 128 BASIC interpreter, where IF B<A+5 gets silently changed to  
> IF BA<+5 (which is still a valid line, but fails at runtime because there  
> is no variable called BA).
> 
> Relatedly, I was just messing about with it and found that you can't enter  
> the line at all if the buggy shift would leave it invalid, e.g. IF  
> A+1>B+1. (You could use brackets, of course.)

I remember that bug.  If you put spaces around the less than/greater
than symbol it accepts the line correctly.

Chris


-- 
+-------------------------------------------+
| Unsatisfactory Software - "because it is" |
|  http://www.unsatisfactorysoftware.co.uk  |
| Your Sinclair: A Celebration              |
+- http://www.yoursinclair.co.uk -----------+

DISCLAIMER: I may be making all this stuff up again.

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#2646

On 30/11/2013 20:56, Paul E Collins wrote:
> My family had "The Rainbow Book of BASIC Programs", and were baffled at
> the time as to why one of them gave an error. It was down to one of the
> bugs in the 128 BASIC interpreter, where IF B<A+5 gets silently changed
> to IF BA<+5 (which is still a valid line, but fails at runtime because
> there is no variable called BA).
>
> Relatedly, I was just messing about with it and found that you can't
> enter the line at all if the buggy shift would leave it invalid, e.g. IF
> A+1>B+1. (You could use brackets, of course.)

I have a feeling that bug was introduced in the dumbed-down ROM for the 
UK market, but I wouldn't swear to it. The original Spanish ROM had a 
few bugs of its own. In fact they didn't even tell people the WIDTH 
command existed because it didn't work as intended.

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#2647

> Ah, yes. Completely context-free list of DATA statements

Agreed. I always sent in an assembly listing but they were never printed. I soon learned that brevity was the key to avoiding rejection.
The program was a TSR (Terminate and Stay Resident) utility for the Spectrum. It sat in system RAM and survived the LOAD command but was deleted by LPRINT, LLIST and curiously COPY. It was written and submitted back in 1985 but was published after the launch on the 128K so just added to the confusion.
There is a mistake in the text and one of the cutomizing POKE addresses is wrong. Jim Grimwood spotted it when he included it on his 'Type Fantastic' page and you can download this and some of my other programs and their source/text from this site.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jg27paw4/type-ins/popcomwk/pw_names.htm

For a really short effective ZX Spectrum program this one ( a combination of two Dr. Logan programs ) is hard to beat

2 LET v=23613: INK RND*6:IF RND<.03 THEN CLS 
3 POKE v,PEEK v-2:PLOT 255*RND,176*RND:DRAW 99*RND,99*RND,v*RND:POKE v,PEEK v+2:GO TO 2 


G. 
-- 
Witchspace in two lines of BASICr.htm

http://www.wearmouth.demon.co.uk/jav/oner

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#2648

> Ah, yes. Completely context-free list of DATA statements

Agreed. I always sent in an assembly listing but they were never printed. I soon learned that brevity was the key to avoiding rejection.
The program was a TSR (Terminate and Stay Resident) utility for the Spectrum. It sat in system RAM and survived the LOAD command but was deleted by LPRINT, LLIST and curiously COPY. It was written and submitted back in 1985 but was published after the launch on the 128K so just added to the confusion.
There is a mistake in the text and one of the cutomizing POKE addresses is wrong. Jim Grimwood spotted it when he included it on his 'Type Fantastic' page and you can download this and some of my other programs and their source/text from this site.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jg27paw4/type-ins/popcomwk/pw_names.htm

For a really short effective ZX Spectrum program this one ( a combination of two Dr. Logan programs ) is hard to beat

2 LET v=23613: INK RND*6:IF RND<.03 THEN CLS 
3 POKE v,PEEK v-2:PLOT 255*RND,176*RND:DRAW 99*RND,99*RND,v*RND:POKE v,PEEK v+2:GO TO 2 


G. 
-- 
Witchspace in two lines of BASIC
http://www.wearmouth.demon.co.uk/jav/onerr.htm

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#2649

Geoff Wearmouth <gwearmouth@gmail.com> wrote:
> For a really short effective ZX Spectrum program this one ( a combination 
> of two Dr. Logan programs ) is hard to beat
> 
> 2 LET v=23613: INK RND*6:IF RND<.03 THEN CLS 
> 3 POKE v,PEEK v-2:PLOT 255*RND,176*RND:DRAW 99*RND,99*RND,v*RND:POKE v,PEEK v+2:GO TO 2 

B Integer out of range, 3:3

(In the PLOT, why is the X-coordinate scaled to 255 but the Y-coordinate to
176?)

-- 
John Elliott

Thinks: This is what a nice clean life leads to. Hmm, why did I ever lead one?
		-- Bluebottle, in the Goon Show

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#2655

> B Integer out of range, 3:3 
> (In the PLOT, why is the X-coordinate scaled to 255 but the Y-coordinate to 
> 176?) 

Thanks John. A 4 year old typo, now corrected on my website, although other posting and the online program were correct.

Just in case I copy and paste again it should read

2 LET v=23613: INK RND*6:IF RND<.03 THEN CLS 
3 POKE v,PEEK v-2:PLOT 255*RND,175*RND:DRAW 99*RND,99*RND,v*RND:POKE v,PEEK v+2:GO TO 2

I share your enjoyment of short demos and included one from your old sig in my ZX Spectrum disassembly 15 years ago with credit.

; Note. if either of the numeric expressions contain STR$ then the flag setting 
; above will be undone when the channel flags are reset during STR$.
; e.g. 
; 10 BORDER 3 : PLOT VAL STR$ 128, VAL STR$ 100
; credit John Elliott.

-- 
G.

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#2660

On 07/12/2013 18:23, John Elliott wrote:
>> 2 LET v=23613: INK RND*6:IF RND<.03 THEN CLS
>> 3 POKE v,PEEK v-2:PLOT 255*RND,176*RND:DRAW 99*RND,99*RND,v*RND:POKE v,PEEK v+2:GO TO 2
>
> B Integer out of range, 3:3
>
> (In the PLOT, why is the X-coordinate scaled to 255 but the Y-coordinate to
> 176?)

Works with 175 I take it? As an aside, in the latest version of SE Basic 
I managed to make the graphics commands take a negative y-coordinate so 
that you can draw across the visible screen, but existing programs still 
behave as expected. It's a little bit tricky because for certain sized 
circles the code skips striaght to the plot code.

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#2662

Andrew Owen <aowen10@mail.bbk.ac.uk> wrote:
> Works with 175 I take it?

  Sadly not; the initial point ends up onscreen, but the DRAW still hits the
edge more often than not.

-- 
John Elliott

Thinks: This is what a nice clean life leads to. Hmm, why did I ever lead one?
		-- Bluebottle, in the Goon Show

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#2663

John Elliott <jce@seasip.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Andrew Owen <aowen10@mail.bbk.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Works with 175 I take it?
> 
>  Sadly not; the initial point ends up onscreen, but the DRAW still hits the
> edge more often than not.

  And having tested a little further... it works fine in 48 BASIC, but not
in +3 BASIC. I'm guessing the POKEs are to suppress the B error when the 
DRAW hits the edge of the screen, and the stack is sufficiently different 
in +3 BASIC that they don't work.

-- 
John Elliott

Thinks: This is what a nice clean life leads to. Hmm, why did I ever lead one?
		-- Bluebottle, in the Goon Show

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#2664

On 09/12/2013 23:19, John Elliott wrote:
> John Elliott <jce@seasip.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Andrew Owen <aowen10@mail.bbk.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Works with 175 I take it?
>>
>>   Sadly not; the initial point ends up onscreen, but the DRAW still hits the
>> edge more often than not.
>
>    And having tested a little further... it works fine in 48 BASIC, but not
> in +3 BASIC. I'm guessing the POKEs are to suppress the B error when the
> DRAW hits the edge of the screen, and the stack is sufficiently different
> in +3 BASIC that they don't work.

Probably won't work on the 128 either then.

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#2666

>  And having tested a little further... it works fine in 48 BASIC, 
> but not in +3 BASIC.

I should have mentioned it was original Spectrum only.
The two articles by Dr. Logan that it is based on are

Popular Computing Weekly 12-MAY-1983
https://archive.org/stream/popular-computing-weekly-1983-05-12/PopularComputing_Weekly_Issue_1983-05-12#page/n16/mode/1up

Popular Computing Weekly 09-JUN-1983
https://archive.org/stream/popular-computing-weekly-1983-06-09/PopularComputing_Weekly_Issue_1983-06-09#page/n19/mode/2up

The button on the right of the Wayback Machine will read the text but unfortunately across the columns so pretty much nonsense. It is progress nontheless.

If I had known it back in '83 it was just right for typing into those W H Smith demo Spectrums and it is also small enough to type into the 48K BASIC library of the new Spectaculator emulator.

--
G.

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#2636

Wibbling like a wibbly wobbly jelly on a wibbly wobbly plate on a wibbly 
wobbly seat on a wibbly wob (We get the idea!! Ed) on 25/11/2013 11:39, 
Geoff Wearmouth wrote:

> Now a certain ZX Spectrum programmer named "Mike Dailly" from Dundee was doing rather

What did Mike write for the Speccy? He's not on WoS, and the aboutme 
page that javalemmings.com doesn't mention the Speccy other than a 
Speccy emulator.


Toodle-pip!
Gerard

-- 
Gerard Sweeney
Hackers Anonymous/Team Amiga
http://fly.to/ha3 and http://www.the-tipshop.co.uk

My job involves explaining things to idiots. Then
the idiots make decisions based on misinterpreting
what I said. Then it is my job to try to fix the
massive problems caused by the bad decisions.
Eventually, rumors overwhelm facts and I give up.
(Dilbert, dilbert.com, 18 Nov 07)

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