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Inbuilt Wifi

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  Inbuilt Wifi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-21 15:24 +0000
    Re: Inbuilt Wifi Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2021-01-21 15:39 +0000
      Re: Inbuilt Wifi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-21 15:45 +0000
        Re: Inbuilt Wifi Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2021-01-21 17:30 +0000
          Re: Inbuilt Wifi Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2021-01-21 22:52 +0000
    Re: Inbuilt Wifi druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2021-01-21 17:24 +0000
    Re: Inbuilt Wifi A. Dumas <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2021-01-21 17:42 +0000
      Re: Inbuilt Wifi Richard Jones <news@rgjones.screaming.net> - 2021-01-21 18:15 +0000
    Re: Inbuilt Wifi alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2021-01-21 18:09 +0000
    Re: Inbuilt Wifi "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2021-01-25 09:12 +0100
      Re: Inbuilt Wifi "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2021-01-25 09:16 +0100
        Re: Inbuilt Wifi "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2021-01-25 09:27 +0100
          Re: Inbuilt Wifi "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2021-01-25 09:39 +0100

#25998 — Inbuilt Wifi

For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi 
performance, and would like the assembled multitudes to comment on the 
correctness, or otherwise of what I have found.

- All Pis with built-in Wifi use the Broadcomm chip
- This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity
- Nor is it capable of 40Mhz dual channel operation
- ergo it *cannot* connect at *more* than 72Mbps

And its often _way_ worse than that.


-- 
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that 
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

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#25999

On 21/01/2021 03:24 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi 
> performance, and would like the assembled multitudes to comment on the 
> correctness, or otherwise of what I have found.
> 
> - All Pis with built-in Wifi use the Broadcomm chip
> - This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity
> - Nor is it capable of 40Mhz dual channel operation
> - ergo it *cannot* connect at *more* than 72Mbps
> 
> And its often _way_ worse than that.
> 
> 

Both my Pi3B+ connect to my 5Ghz wifi.

-- 
Chris Elvidge
England

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#26000

On 21/01/2021 15:39, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 21/01/2021 03:24 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi 
>> performance, and would like the assembled multitudes to comment on the 
>> correctness, or otherwise of what I have found.
>>
>> - All Pis with built-in Wifi use the Broadcomm chip
>> - This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity
>> - Nor is it capable of 40Mhz dual channel operation
>> - ergo it *cannot* connect at *more* than 72Mbps
>>
>> And its often _way_ worse than that.
>>
>>
> 
> Both my Pi3B+ connect to my 5Ghz wifi.
> 
+++!

can you show what chipsets/drivers and what protocols they are using?

It would be nice to tabulate the results


-- 
  “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader, 
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say, 
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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#26004

On 21/01/2021 03:45 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/01/2021 15:39, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> On 21/01/2021 03:24 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi 
>>> performance, and would like the assembled multitudes to comment on 
>>> the correctness, or otherwise of what I have found.
>>>
>>> - All Pis with built-in Wifi use the Broadcomm chip
>>> - This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity
>>> - Nor is it capable of 40Mhz dual channel operation
>>> - ergo it *cannot* connect at *more* than 72Mbps
>>>
>>> And its often _way_ worse than that.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Both my Pi3B+ connect to my 5Ghz wifi.
>>
> +++!
> 
> can you show what chipsets/drivers and what protocols they are using?
> 
> It would be nice to tabulate the results
> 
> 

lshw shows:
*-network
	description: Wireless interface
	physical id: 2
	logical name: wlan0
	serial: b8:27:eb:fb:cc:a1
	capabilities: ethernet physical wireless
	configuration: broadcast=yes driver=brcmfmac driverversion=7.45.206 
firmware=01-88ee44ea ip=192.168.23.152 	multicast=yes wireless=IEEE 802.11

iwconfig:
wlan0     IEEE 802.11  ESSID:"CHRISPLACE-A"
           Mode:Managed  Frequency:5.3 GHz  Access Point: 80:3F:5D:FA:4D:FA
           Bit Rate=78 Mb/s   Tx-Power=31 dBm
           Retry short limit:7   RTS thr:off   Fragment thr:off
           Encryption key:off
           Power Management:on
           Link Quality=70/70  Signal level=-31 dBm
           Rx invalid nwid:0  Rx invalid crypt:0  Rx invalid frag:0
           Tx excessive retries:0  Invalid misc:0   Missed beacon:0

# cat /sys/class/net/wlan0/device/vendor
0x02d0
# cat /sys/class/net/wlan0/device/device
0xa9a6

02d0 is Broadcom



-- 
Chris Elvidge
England

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#26017

Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
> # cat /sys/class/net/wlan0/device/vendor
> 0x02d0
> # cat /sys/class/net/wlan0/device/device
> 0xa9a6
> 
> 02d0 is Broadcom

Cypress bought the Wi-Fi assets from Broadcom, hence it's now a Cypress part
that was designed by Broadcom, using Broadcom's vendor ID.

Theo

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#26002

On 21/01/2021 15:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi 
> performance, and would like the assembled multitudes to comment on the 
> correctness, or otherwise of what I have found.
> 
> - All Pis with built-in Wifi use the Broadcomm chip
> - This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity
> - Nor is it capable of 40Mhz dual channel operation
> - ergo it *cannot* connect at *more* than 72Mbps

The Pi 3B+ and 4B have 5 GHz WiFi. I think the chips support 40MHz on 
2.4GHz, but the driver doesn't.

All my 3B+s and 4Bs have Ethernet, so I can't check on the 5GHz 
performance, but the 3Bs and Zeros scattered around the house do about 
20-30Mbps up and down, as do the 2Bs with USB WiFi adaptors.

Just failed over a 4B on to 5GHz WiFi, its fairly close to the router 
but only gives 88.6Mbs down, and 75.3 Mbs up.

So I recommend if you need speed, use Ethernet. Up to the 3B you should 
get 96/92Mbps, the 3B+ does 327/270Mbs, and the 937/832MBps down/up.

---druck

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#26006

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> - This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity

The 3B+ and 4 have 5 GHz capable wifi, apparently using the Cypress
CYW43455 says
https://www.hackster.io/news/meet-the-new-raspberry-pi-4-model-b-9b4698c284
although when you follow the link to Cypress it says the chip can only do
Bluetooth 4.1 but RPi says it supports 5.0. So, something not right. Would
be strange to have a non-broadcom wifi chip on broadcom's baby.

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#26008

On 21/01/2021 17:42, A. Dumas wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> - This chip is not capable of 5Ghz connectivity
> 
> The 3B+ and 4 have 5 GHz capable wifi, apparently using the Cypress
> CYW43455 says
> https://www.hackster.io/news/meet-the-new-raspberry-pi-4-model-b-9b4698c284
> although when you follow the link to Cypress it says the chip can only do
> Bluetooth 4.1 but RPi says it supports 5.0. So, something not right. Would
> be strange to have a non-broadcom wifi chip on broadcom's baby.
> 

It is indeed a Cyprus chip and yes it does support BT 5.0 as per 
datasheet linked here..

https://www.cypress.com/file/358916/download

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#26007

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:24:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi
> performance, and would like the assembled multitudes to comment on the
> correctness, or otherwise of what I have found.
> 
> - All Pis with built-in Wifi use the Broadcomm chip - This chip is not
> capable of 5Ghz connectivity - Nor is it capable of 40Mhz dual channel
> operation - ergo it *cannot* connect at *more* than 72Mbps
> 
> And its often _way_ worse than that.

3b+ 4b & pi400 all speak 5ghz

not sure about max speed



-- 
> I thing you're missing the capability of Makefiles.

        It takes several _hours_ to do `make' a second time on my
machine with the latest glibc sources (and no files are recompiled a
second time).  I think I'll remove `build' after changing one file if
I want to recompile it.
		-- Juan Cespedes <cespedes@debian.org>

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#26064

Op 21-01-2021 om 16:24 schreef The Natural Philosopher:
> For reasons not pertinent to PIs, I started researching wifi 

See also https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=291609 
with pertinent quote: "for CYW43455 WiFi chip. It should finally make 
80MHz channels a reality and hopefully solve a number of connectivity 
problems"
Related discussion linked from there.

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#26065

Op 25-01-2021 om 09:12 schreef A. Dumas:
> Related discussion linked from there.

Oh wow, from one of the first posts there: "So link bumped to 433 from 
200 [Mb/s]". That looks promising. 
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1763644#p1763644

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#26066

Op 25-01-2021 om 09:16 schreef A. Dumas:
> Op 25-01-2021 om 09:12 schreef A. Dumas:
>> Related discussion linked from there.
> 
> Oh wow, from one of the first posts there: "So link bumped to 433 from 
> 200 [Mb/s]". That looks promising. 
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1763644#p1763644

D'oh! From a bit further: "The WiFi chip is connected via a 4-bit SDIO 
link that typically runs at 41.7MHz giving an upper limit on throughput 
of ~160Mbs."

So the link going to 433 Mb/s won't make a difference, except in this 
sense: "being able to properly use the wide channels means that the 
channel (which is a shared medium) is occupied for a shorter time, 
leaving more time for other devices."

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1768600#p1768600

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#26067

Op 25-01-2021 om 09:27 schreef A. Dumas:
> D'oh! From a bit further: "The WiFi chip is connected via a 4-bit SDIO 
> link that typically runs at 41.7MHz giving an upper limit on throughput 
> of ~160Mbs."
> 
> So the link going to 433 Mb/s won't make a difference, except in this 
> sense: "being able to properly use the wide channels means that the 
> channel (which is a shared medium) is occupied for a shorter time, 
> leaving more time for other devices."
> 
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1768600#p1768600

Tiny bit more detail in a different thread for the xxx56 version (which 
is in the Pi400): 
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1768615#p1768615

"In terms of improving your throughput further you are probably limited 
by the SDIO interface. "sudo cat /sys/kernel/debug/mmc1/ios" shows the 
state of that link. The bus clock has to be an even integer divisor of 
the emmc clock, which is currently fixed at 250MHz, hence the 41.67MHz. 
Tweaking the EMMC clock ought to make 50MHz attainable, but for clock 
synchronisation reasons that would also require changing the core clock. 
Although not trivial, I think there are potential gains to be made here."

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