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Groups > comp.sys.raspberry-pi > #11730 > unrolled thread

Is it a lost cause?

Started by"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid>
First post2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
Last post2016-07-05 14:28 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 788 — 65 participants

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Contents

  Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:02 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 17:43 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-13 23:05 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:52 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:55 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:53 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:27 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 15:05 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 14:09 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:07 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:02 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:56 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:13 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:39 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 08:46 +0200
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-17 10:51 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:14 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:54 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:57 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 13:02 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:45 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:32 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:56 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:59 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:48 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:22 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:28 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:56 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:48 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:57 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:05 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:24 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 13:03 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 13:10 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 12:28 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 15:37 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:19 +0300
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:08 +0300
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-17 16:09 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 22:58 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:03 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:24 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 03:47 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 23:55 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:03 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 10:20 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:43 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 04:38 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-02 14:00 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 12:09 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 12:36 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:32 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:49 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-01 22:17 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:10 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-02 21:35 +0300
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 20:45 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 22:14 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-02 21:42 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:33 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:45 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:36 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:20 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:38 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 12:03 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 15:17 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 18:28 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 03:14 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:17 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 09:55 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:15 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:42 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:51 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:45 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:54 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:10 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 20:16 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 22:12 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 21:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:15 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:26 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:35 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 18:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-04 09:01 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:55 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:11 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:01 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:32 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-05 17:11 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 14:44 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:19 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:01 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:30 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 17:31 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:30 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:57 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 14:51 -0400
                                  Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 23:18 +0000
                                    Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) - 2016-07-04 08:24 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:20 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 16:15 -0400
                            Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:55 +0000
                              Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:35 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-03 12:33 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:57 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-04 15:47 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:24 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:31 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:10 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:47 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 21:56 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 00:44 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:21 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 11:39 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:21 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:06 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 13:53 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 01:16 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:35 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 23:23 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 00:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:20 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 13:37 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:22 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:59 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 06:44 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 09:45 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:14 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:04 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 07:49 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 21:53 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 -0400
                  Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:05 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:05 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:30 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 12:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:40 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:42 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:53 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 15:20 -0400
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:50 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 16:28 -0500
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:37 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:03 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:08 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:13 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 06:36 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:37 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:12 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 19:52 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:30 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:51 +0000
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:32 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:44 +0000
                                      Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0000
                                        Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 15:01 +0000
                                            Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:49 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 10:45 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-06 12:05 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 11:41 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 08:59 -0400
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:00 +0200
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:46 -0400
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:56 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:52 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:25 +0000
                          Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:10 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:35 -0500
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-07-05 16:33 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:16 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:05 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:12 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 21:49 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-06 06:12 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 08:51 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:05 +0100
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-04 23:04 +0300
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 20:35 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:54 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:49 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-04 21:54 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0300
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:40 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-05 18:51 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:21 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:28 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:38 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:53 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-04 14:52 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 17:22 -0400
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:35 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:50 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:00 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:03 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 23:37 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 20:43 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-14 10:20 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:16 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-15 08:01 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 13:06 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 14:26 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 03:24 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 08:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:11 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 07:56 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-02 10:30 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 16:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 17:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 16:58 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 11:52 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-02 06:23 -0500
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:02 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:01 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:09 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:29 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:30 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 08:57 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:14 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 08:36 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:25 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 22:33 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:24 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:02 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 12:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 09:38 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:35 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:36 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:32 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:00 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-18 18:14 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-18 12:25 -0500
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:11 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:04 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:26 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:43 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:48 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:50 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:42 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:50 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:52 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Luke A. Guest <laguest@archeia.com> - 2016-07-01 20:28 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-01 20:21 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-01 23:10 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-01 22:35 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:35 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 11:24 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 11:21 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-02 12:39 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:01 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 13:51 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:32 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-02 19:51 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 18:39 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:36 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 18:56 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:14 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 15:28 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:23 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 17:35 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 19:48 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 15:01 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 20:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 13:17 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:24 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:29 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 12:09 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-05 17:38 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 18:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:30 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:29 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 23:07 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 12:45 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 09:05 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 13:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 07:37 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 08:51 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-06 15:09 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 00:26 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:12 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-04 12:47 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:43 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 18:40 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 09:14 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 13:00 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:46 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 14:59 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 14:08 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:27 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:34 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 16:57 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:23 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:06 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:17 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:17 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:10 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:28 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:34 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-07 14:45 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 16:27 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-07 11:53 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:33 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 19:30 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:38 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:19 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 14:22 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:30 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:51 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-07 07:47 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:41 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-09 00:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 12:51 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 13:05 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 14:12 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:21 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 19:35 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:55 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 10:40 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-09 09:02 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:28 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 16:39 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> - 2016-07-09 16:56 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 16:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:43 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 21:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 18:25 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:53 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 20:55 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-10 12:06 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-10 14:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-11 11:32 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:57 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 16:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:27 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:46 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 18:39 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:44 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:59 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-07-12 01:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:48 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 06:34 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-13 13:34 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 15:46 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:23 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:49 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:04 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:43 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 19:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:19 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:48 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 15:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:36 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-08 20:43 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2016-07-06 00:28 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:32 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-02 19:20 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rambo <Rambo@thisaintreal.org> - 2016-06-13 20:07 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:42 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:43 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:12 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:17 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:31 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 20:29 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:48 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 08:11 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:14 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:23 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:46 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 10:22 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:01 +0100
                          OT was Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-14 12:09 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:59 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:30 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:51 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-14 15:24 -0700
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-14 17:07 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:14 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:45 +0200
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:34 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:44 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:21 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:15 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:42 +0200
                  Symbolics [Re: Is it a lost cause?] colonel_hack@yahoo.com - 2016-06-15 17:08 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:05 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:10 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:29 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:41 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:42 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:29 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:47 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:24 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:37 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:42 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 13:53 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:20 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Brian Reay <no.sp@m.com> - 2016-06-14 08:35 -0700
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:45 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:18 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 15:57 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:36 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:40 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:59 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:19 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 21:58 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:15 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:23 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 10:01 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:40 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 12:19 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:37 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:39 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:19 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:53 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:17 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:50 +0300
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:59 +1000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:06 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 19:44 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:55 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 11:49 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:31 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:29 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-15 18:20 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:27 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 17:18 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:58 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-16 07:38 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 08:59 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:34 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-16 07:49 -0500
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-17 12:26 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 13:06 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 14:10 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 20:11 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Hall <sweet_stevie@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 19:42 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:54 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:48 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:07 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 11:16 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:40 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:10 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:05 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 19:04 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-16 09:37 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:42 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:55 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:47 +1000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:53 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 22:37 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-16 09:49 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:55 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-18 02:03 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 16:24 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-17 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-17 20:05 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 12:27 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 16:29 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:35 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 19:54 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:15 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 10:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:05 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:52 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:32 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:36 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 09:08 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:26 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:58 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:53 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:45 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-18 11:02 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 11:13 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-06-18 15:19 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:35 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:50 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:58 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:09 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:11 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:13 +0300
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 14:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:56 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 21:58 +0300
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:49 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 11:17 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:04 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:31 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-19 21:49 +0300
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-20 07:41 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:54 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:55 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:24 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-19 14:13 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 22:12 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-19 19:24 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:27 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:25 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 12:10 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 17:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:29 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 17:57 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 19:18 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 21:18 +0300
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 18:38 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:57 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:17 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 19:41 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:52 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:02 +0300
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:01 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-07-03 13:50 -0400
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 20:11 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 23:05 +0000
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 07:05 +0100
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:56 +0200
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 12:54 +0100
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 13:14 +0100
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 16:19 +0100
                                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:51 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-07-04 01:12 -0400
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 21:18 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-20 19:04 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-21 06:16 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 20:01 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 21:29 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 13:37 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:29 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:25 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-20 06:57 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 10:09 +0300
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 08:31 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:50 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:43 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:07 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:47 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:38 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 18:52 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 10:55 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 15:58 -0500
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 21:07 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:27 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:06 +0200
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:31 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:17 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 18:47 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2016-06-19 12:13 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-19 08:10 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-19 10:59 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-06-19 18:13 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-06-21 03:09 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 19:59 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-17 17:40 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 22:25 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-18 10:56 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 19:00 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-18 19:33 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 10:46 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 10:51 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 12:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-19 13:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 16:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 17:17 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:19 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 07:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-19 18:44 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-19 21:08 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 11:16 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-20 15:26 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 16:44 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 20:07 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:35 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 19:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:34 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:12 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:33 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 07:23 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 14:15 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:50 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:45 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:51 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 07:58 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 08:41 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:46 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:31 -0400
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 12:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:36 +0100
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:31 +0000
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0000
        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 15:42 +0000
          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:54 +0000
            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 18:33 +0000
              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:14 +0000
                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:19 +0000
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 21:42 +0000
    Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 21:47 +0000
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 17:55 -0400
      Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 02:46 +0000
        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 08:58 +0100
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 07:54 -0700
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 15:43 -0700
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 11:57 -0400
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-05 16:06 +0000
              Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 14:05 -0400
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 13:24 -0500
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 14:29 -0400
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:59 +0000
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 18:31 +0000
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 15:32 -0400
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 20:05 +0000
                      Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 22:36 -0400
                        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:14 +0000
                        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 07:59 +0000
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:59 +0000
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 20:05 +0000
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:57 +0000
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:16 +0000
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 15:38 -0700
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dennis <dennis@none.none> - 2016-07-04 19:55 -0500
        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-05 12:46 -0500
          Re: 360 architecture, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0000
          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:20 +0000
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:28 +0000

Page 5 of 40 — ← Prev page 1 … 3 4 [5] 6 7 … 40  Next page →


#12301

FromJohn Levine <johnl@iecc.com>
Date2016-07-02 21:42 +0000
Message-ID<nl9cfc$1ufu$1@miucha.iecc.com>
In reply to#12300
>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.

It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast
majority of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other
storage to storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That
was certainly what they had in mind when they made it modify the
second byte of the instruction.

>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO ...
>> statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high level
>> language. ...

Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.

>Sounds fun.
>
>Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?

Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:

222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL
666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
      END

(In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
assigned goto was optional.)

The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
with assigned gotos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12306

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e2148744c971bd98a306@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12301
In article <nl9cfc$1ufu$1@miucha.iecc.com>, johnl@iecc.com says...
> 
> >>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
> 
> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast
> majority of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other
> storage to storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That
> was certainly what they had in mind when they made it modify the
> second byte of the instruction.
> 
> >> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO ...
> >> statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high level
> >> language. ...
> 
> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
> 
> >Sounds fun.
> >
> >Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> 
> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
> 
> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL
> 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>       END
> 
> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
> assigned goto was optional.)
> 
> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
> with assigned gotos.

FWIW, in APL you can generate an arbitrary string, store it in a 
variable, and try to execute the variable.  If the string is valid APL 
then it will execute.  APL being APL a line of code can do a tremendous 
lot, including editing the function in which it is contained.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12384

Fromjeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
Date2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
Message-ID<nlcic4$9vi$1@panix1.panix.com>
In reply to#12306
>FWIW, in APL you can generate an arbitrary string, store it in a 
>variable, and try to execute the variable.  If the string is valid APL 
>then it will execute.  APL being APL a line of code can do a tremendous 
>lot, including editing the function in which it is contained.

The shell 'eval' is a similar concept:
submit a command to the interpreter
but with some degree of isolation so errors can be caught externally.
Often used to re-evaluate things like shell variables,
for auto-generated command lines.

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#12328

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
Message-ID<1218825902.489235739.621070.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12301
John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
> 
> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast
> majority of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other
> storage to storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That
> was certainly what they had in mind when they made it modify the
> second byte of the instruction.
> 
>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO ...
>>> statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high level
>>> language. ...
> 
> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
> 
>> Sounds fun.
>> 
>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> 
> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
> 
> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL
> 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>       END
> 
> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
> assigned goto was optional.)
> 
> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
> with assigned gotos.
> 
> 

The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.

-- 
Pete

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#12330

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 11:33 +0000
Message-ID<nlat5e$3id$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12328
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:

> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>> 
>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast majority
>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage to
>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was certainly
>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
>> instruction.
>> 
>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high
>>>> level language. ...
>> 
>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
>> 
>>> Sounds fun.
>>> 
>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>> 
>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>> 
>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>       END
>> 
>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>> assigned goto was optional.)
>> 
>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
>> with assigned gotos.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.

The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often 
quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program 
it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO TO 
was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also 
included code from a COPY library.

Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that the 
sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to execute 
that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run times.

As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not use 
ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of 
structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12332

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 12:45 +0100
Message-ID<nlatro$ubs$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12330
On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>
>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast majority
>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage to
>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was certainly
>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
>>> instruction.
>>>
>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high
>>>>> level language. ...
>>>
>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
>>>
>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>
>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>
>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>        END
>>>
>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>
>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>
> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program
> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO TO
> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also
> included code from a COPY library.
>
> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that the
> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to execute
> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run times.
>
> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not use
> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>
>
And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing 
on very large data sets.

A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who 
does the real work, translating the business problem into code module 
and data dictionary specifications.




-- 
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly 
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential 
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations 
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with 
what it actually is.

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#12334

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 12:36 +0000
Message-ID<nlb0sm$c33$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12332
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 12:45:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> 
> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
> and data dictionary specifications.
>
I *resemble* that. 

In most of the good development groups I've worked in, analysts and 
designers were also implementers - and some of these were quite large so 
that wasn't a small outfit quirk. It was also notable that some of the 
worst practises and most difficult systems to run were the product of 
outfits with a NO-CONTACT rule keeping the analysts and designers 
entirely separate from the implementors and operations groups.

The best working environment was one where the project manager, technical 
manager and senior developers came onboard during the bid process and, if 
the bid was won, were responsible for implementing, acceptance testing 
and delivering the project. This worked, and tended to deliver working 
projects on time and to budget and without requiring excess overtime, etc.
 
 
-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12355

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
Message-ID<2002886884.489253386.480869.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12334
Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 12:45:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> 
>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>> and data dictionary specifications.
>> 
> I *resemble* that. 
> 
> In most of the good development groups I've worked in, analysts and 
> designers were also implementers - and some of these were quite large so 
> that wasn't a small outfit quirk. It was also notable that some of the 
> worst practises and most difficult systems to run were the product of 
> outfits with a NO-CONTACT rule keeping the analysts and designers 
> entirely separate from the implementors and operations groups.
> 
> The best working environment was one where the project manager, technical 
> manager and senior developers came onboard during the bid process and, if 
> the bid was won, were responsible for implementing, acceptance testing 
> and delivering the project. This worked, and tended to deliver working 
> projects on time and to budget and without requiring excess overtime, etc.
>  
>  

I worked at CTG before it was CTG (Marx-Baer), and our usual modus operandi
was to bid the systems analysis and design.  The customer could than hire
us to do the implementation, do it themselves in-house, or presumably hire
someone else to do it.  This was a good guarantee of producing implantable
systems, since we'd work on a fixed-price contract to do the
implementation.

-- 
Pete

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#12338

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
Message-ID<PM000536BAFA9E9EEE@aca48018.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#12332
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>
>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast majority
>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage to
>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was certainly
>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
>>>> instruction.
>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high
>>>>>> level language. ...
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>
>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>>
>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>>        END
>>>>
>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>>
>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
>>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>>
>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program
>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO TO
>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also
>> included code from a COPY library.
>>
>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that the
>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to execute
>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run times.
>>
>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not use
>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>>
>>
> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
> on very large data sets.

Was it originally?

>
> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
> and data dictionary specifications.

You need to reexamine that assumption.

/BAH

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#12342

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 15:20 +0100
Message-ID<nlb6vf$fc8$2@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12338
On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
>>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast majority
>>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage to
>>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was certainly
>>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
>>>>> instruction.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
>>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high
>>>>>>> level language. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>>>
>>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>>>         END
>>>>>
>>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
>>>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
>>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
>>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>>>
>>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
>>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program
>>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO TO
>>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also
>>> included code from a COPY library.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that the
>>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to execute
>>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run times.
>>>
>>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not use
>>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
>>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>>>
>>>
>> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
>> on very large data sets.
>
> Was it originally?
>

I think so.

Batch processing of payroll etc etc.


>>
>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>> and data dictionary specifications.
>
> You need to reexamine that assumption.

I don't think I do.
Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general 
progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst

>
> /BAH
>


-- 
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such 
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic 
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally 
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for 
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the 
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels


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#12351

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 15:38 +0000
Message-ID<nlbbgr$5qi$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12342
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 15:20:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> 
> Batch processing of payroll etc etc.
>
Its true enough that it was batch processing in the 70s - necessarily so 
because, even in 1968, most data was stored on mag tape because of the 
cost and limited capacity of disk drives. That was when I started: we had 
a pair 8MB disks and six tape drives. So large master file had to be 
stored on multiple tapes at somewhere around 12MB per 2400ft x 1/2" reel.

By '71 or so we had a pair of 60MB disks and were running George 3, so we 
had some terminals: ASR-33 Teletypes plus one 'glass Teletype' so called 
because although it used a CRT, it wasn't capable of anything more than 
showing lines of text and scrolling. 

However, despite the limited computers, we wrote and ran everything from 
small payrolls and accounting systems up to the full systems needed by a 
magazine distributor to handle accounts, magazine inventory, and that 
used an optical mark reader (remember those?) to record details of 
magazine deliveries and returns and a paint manufacturing systems the 
dealt with stock control and the process of paint mixing. This was in NZ.

Depending on your musical taste you may have indirectly met my last large 
COBOL system. From 1983 until the BBC stopped using ICL mainframes this 
interactive system handled all the details of program making for Radio 3. 
As well as maintaining the music and performer catalogues the system 
tracked program production, from proposal through production, scheduling, 
initial broadcast and and subsequent reuse. To do this it had to keep 
track of the licensing details and of every transmission of each and any 
part of the works in each broadcast. It was popular too  -it was 
originally intended for use by just the 8 people in the music planning 
office, but producers liked it to and it ended up in 40 terminals. 

So much for small, simple COBOL systems, what?

>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>>> and data dictionary specifications.
>>
>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
> 
> I don't think I do.
> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire,
>
Too right. I remember one who designed a system that was OK through 
program testing but that proved impossible to run in production. IIRC the 
data flow between programs was the problem but I had no involvement with 
that system so I don't know the details.

> but the general
> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
>
Yep, but the logic in a lot of these systems can be a lot more esoteric 
than yo might think, particularly on the sales and order taking side. One 
system I built for a toy manufacturer had to handle orders denominated in
dozens, bakers dozens, double bakers dozens, by the gross, trailer or 
railcar load - all with their different discount structures. Then there 
were additional discount schemes, special discount schemes for particular 
customers and overrides to any and all of this due to face-to-face deals. 
And, of course, the system had to track salesmen's commissions.

Even the Radio 3 music system had its moments. For starters, many 
classical music works don't have names (Beethoven's 5th Symphony is one, 
though the 3rd does [Eroica]) and some works have multiple versions and 
arrangements of these, so your catalogue had better be able to handle all 
this as well as dates from 55BC (a piece by Euripides) into the future 
and had to handle a range of dates of varying accuracy and type 
(financial quarters and years, birth/death/composition dates of varying 
accuracy (exact, to the month, just a year, when somebody flourished, the 
century,...)

Put all this type of stuff together and the system complexity soon builds 
up. 

Now add the type of user, which may have to cover restricted access by 
person or role of user as well as providing an interface that is equally 
usable by the people who use it all day, every day as well as the people 
who only use it once every month or two. 

More complexity to build in. 

And the whole thing has to provide acceptable response times, as well as 
being reliable and easy to maintain.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12356

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-03 12:03 -0400
Message-ID<564143845.489254241.819854.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12351
Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 15:20:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Batch processing of payroll etc etc.
>> 
> Its true enough that it was batch processing in the 70s - necessarily so 
> because, even in 1968, most data was stored on mag tape because of the 
> cost and limited capacity of disk drives. That was when I started: we had 
> a pair 8MB disks and six tape drives. So large master file had to be 
> stored on multiple tapes at somewhere around 12MB per 2400ft x 1/2" reel.
> 
> By '71 or so we had a pair of 60MB disks and were running George 3, so we 
> had some terminals: ASR-33 Teletypes plus one 'glass Teletype' so called 
> because although it used a CRT, it wasn't capable of anything more than 
> showing lines of text and scrolling. 
> 
> However, despite the limited computers, we wrote and ran everything from 
> small payrolls and accounting systems up to the full systems needed by a 
> magazine distributor to handle accounts, magazine inventory, and that 
> used an optical mark reader (remember those?) to record details of 
> magazine deliveries and returns and a paint manufacturing systems the 
> dealt with stock control and the process of paint mixing. This was in NZ.
> 
> Depending on your musical taste you may have indirectly met my last large 
> COBOL system. From 1983 until the BBC stopped using ICL mainframes this 
> interactive system handled all the details of program making for Radio 3. 
> As well as maintaining the music and performer catalogues the system 
> tracked program production, from proposal through production, scheduling, 
> initial broadcast and and subsequent reuse. To do this it had to keep 
> track of the licensing details and of every transmission of each and any 
> part of the works in each broadcast. It was popular too  -it was 
> originally intended for use by just the 8 people in the music planning 
> office, but producers liked it to and it ended up in 40 terminals. 
> 
> So much for small, simple COBOL systems, what?
> 
>>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>>>> and data dictionary specifications.
>>> 
>>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
>> 
>> I don't think I do.
>> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire,
>> 
> Too right. I remember one who designed a system that was OK through 
> program testing but that proved impossible to run in production. IIRC the 
> data flow between programs was the problem but I had no involvement with 
> that system so I don't know the details.
> 
>> but the general
>> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
>> 
> Yep, but the logic in a lot of these systems can be a lot more esoteric 
> than yo might think, particularly on the sales and order taking side. One 
> system I built for a toy manufacturer had to handle orders denominated in
> dozens, bakers dozens, double bakers dozens, by the gross, trailer or 
> railcar load - all with their different discount structures. Then there 
> were additional discount schemes, special discount schemes for particular 
> customers and overrides to any and all of this due to face-to-face deals. 
> And, of course, the system had to track salesmen's commissions.

Paul Strassman has a description of the problems with Xerox COIN
distributed order-entry system in _The Computers Nobody Wanted_ (which I
almost got pulled into).  As I recall the problem is that almost all the
salesmen and reps each had a different commission structure, so it almost
had to be programmed on an individual basis. At least you presumably got
your system to work.

> 
> Even the Radio 3 music system had its moments. For starters, many 
> classical music works don't have names (Beethoven's 5th Symphony is one, 
> though the 3rd does [Eroica]) and some works have multiple versions and 
> arrangements of these, so your catalogue had better be able to handle all 
> this as well as dates from 55BC (a piece by Euripides) into the future 
> and had to handle a range of dates of varying accuracy and type 
> (financial quarters and years, birth/death/composition dates of varying 
> accuracy (exact, to the month, just a year, when somebody flourished, the 
> century,...)
> 
> Put all this type of stuff together and the system complexity soon builds 
> up. 
> 
> Now add the type of user, which may have to cover restricted access by 
> person or role of user as well as providing an interface that is equally 
> usable by the people who use it all day, every day as well as the people 
> who only use it once every month or two. 
> 
> More complexity to build in. 
> 
> And the whole thing has to provide acceptable response times, as well as 
> being reliable and easy to maintain.
> 
> 



-- 
Pete

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#12360

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 17:18 +0000
Message-ID<nlbhcp$79p$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12356
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 12:03:14 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:

> Paul Strassman has a description of the problems with Xerox COIN
> distributed order-entry system in _The Computers Nobody Wanted_ (which I
> almost got pulled into).  As I recall the problem is that almost all the
> salesmen and reps each had a different commission structure, so it
> almost had to be programmed on an individual basis. At least you
> presumably got your system to work.
>
Yes, we did. In this case there were special deals for the larger 
customers, but all the salesmen sang from the same sheet IIRC, though 
their ability to strike deals that differed from the customer's special 
deal might have been a problem, in practise the deal entry screen's 
ability to override the deal sheet seemed to do the trick.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12390

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-04 15:17 +0100
Message-ID<nldr5q$edl$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12342
On 04/07/16 15:01, Osmium wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>
>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the chief
>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>> accurately.
>>
>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>
>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining the
>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>
> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?

Oh yes.

As a contract programmer, you did what you were told.



-- 
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

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#12392

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-04 18:28 +0100
Message-ID<nle6bi$5fg$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12342
On 04/07/16 18:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 17:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/07/16 17:33, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2016 15:01, Osmium wrote:
>>>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the chief
>>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>
>>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>>>>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining the
>>>>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>>
>>>> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?
>>>
>>> I am used to each line of assembler having a comment. Subroutines were
>>> commented at the top. No pseudo code.
>>>
>>> Actually pseudo code would have been a dangerous distraction. When
>>> maintaining it I need to know what the code has to do (for a particular
>>> data value) and what it actually does. Then I can make the two the same.
>>
>>
>> No, pseudo code is good, because that says what it has to do.
>> To anyone coming along blind with a bug to fix.
>>
>>
>>
> No. At best pseudo code says what someone thinks how the code should
> have worked. It is now out of date and frequently inaccurate.

That's because someone like you came along and hacked the code and 
didn't alter the pseudo code.

If you have a bug the first thing to do is to examine the pseudo code. 
Is it actually meeting the specification?

If not fix it.

The does the actual code perform the functions outlined by the pseudo code?

If not, fix the code.

Its called coding discipline. IN a small project you can get away 
without it. When any random idiot out of a thousand may be called upo9n 
to fix the bug, possibly even in acceptance testing, then its the only 
way to get the bug fixer up to speed.

Its how you employ average coders and get results.


-- 
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper 
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating 
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its 
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of 
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must 
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

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#12450

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-07-05 03:14 +0100
Message-ID<9KqdnWr3ruRviubKnZ2dnUU78b-dnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#12392
On 04/07/2016 18:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/07/16 18:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 04/07/2016 17:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 04/07/16 17:33, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/2016 15:01, Osmium wrote:
>>>>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the
>>>>>> chief
>>>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>>>>>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining the
>>>>>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>>>
>>>>> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?
>>>>
>>>> I am used to each line of assembler having a comment. Subroutines were
>>>> commented at the top. No pseudo code.
>>>>
>>>> Actually pseudo code would have been a dangerous distraction. When
>>>> maintaining it I need to know what the code has to do (for a particular
>>>> data value) and what it actually does. Then I can make the two the
>>>> same.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, pseudo code is good, because that says what it has to do.
>>> To anyone coming along blind with a bug to fix.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> No. At best pseudo code says what someone thinks how the code should
>> have worked. It is now out of date and frequently inaccurate.
>
> That's because someone like you came along and hacked the code and
> didn't alter the pseudo code.
>
> If you have a bug the first thing to do is to examine the pseudo code.
> Is it actually meeting the specification?
>
> If not fix it.
>
> The does the actual code perform the functions outlined by the pseudo code?
>
> If not, fix the code.
>

Enhancements are not in the pseudo code

> Its called coding discipline. IN a small project you can get away
> without it. When any random idiot out of a thousand may be called upo9n
> to fix the bug, possibly even in acceptance testing, then its the only
> way to get the bug fixer up to speed.
>
> Its how you employ average coders and get results.
>
>

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#12469

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-05 06:17 +0100
Message-ID<nlfftd$nmq$3@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12450
On 05/07/16 03:14, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 18:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/07/16 18:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2016 17:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/16 17:33, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>> On 04/07/2016 15:01, Osmium wrote:
>>>>>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the
>>>>>>> chief
>>>>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>>>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>>>>>>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am used to each line of assembler having a comment. Subroutines were
>>>>> commented at the top. No pseudo code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually pseudo code would have been a dangerous distraction. When
>>>>> maintaining it I need to know what the code has to do (for a
>>>>> particular
>>>>> data value) and what it actually does. Then I can make the two the
>>>>> same.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, pseudo code is good, because that says what it has to do.
>>>> To anyone coming along blind with a bug to fix.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No. At best pseudo code says what someone thinks how the code should
>>> have worked. It is now out of date and frequently inaccurate.
>>
>> That's because someone like you came along and hacked the code and
>> didn't alter the pseudo code.
>>
>> If you have a bug the first thing to do is to examine the pseudo code.
>> Is it actually meeting the specification?
>>
>> If not fix it.
>>
>> The does the actual code perform the functions outlined by the pseudo
>> code?
>>
>> If not, fix the code.
>>
>
> Enhancements are not in the pseudo code

They should be

>
>> Its called coding discipline. IN a small project you can get away
>> without it. When any random idiot out of a thousand may be called upo9n
>> to fix the bug, possibly even in acceptance testing, then its the only
>> way to get the bug fixer up to speed.
>>
>> Its how you employ average coders and get results.
>>
>>
>


-- 
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a 
kind word alone.

Al Capone

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#12484

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
Message-ID<PM000536E308338FDD@aca41e7f.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#12469
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/07/16 03:14, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 04/07/2016 18:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 04/07/16 18:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/2016 17:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 04/07/16 17:33, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/07/2016 15:01, Osmium wrote:
>>>>>>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the
>>>>>>>> chief
>>>>>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>>>>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>>>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>>>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>>>>>>>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am used to each line of assembler having a comment. Subroutines were
>>>>>> commented at the top. No pseudo code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually pseudo code would have been a dangerous distraction. When
>>>>>> maintaining it I need to know what the code has to do (for a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> data value) and what it actually does. Then I can make the two the
>>>>>> same.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, pseudo code is good, because that says what it has to do.
>>>>> To anyone coming along blind with a bug to fix.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No. At best pseudo code says what someone thinks how the code should
>>>> have worked. It is now out of date and frequently inaccurate.
>>>
>>> That's because someone like you came along and hacked the code and
>>> didn't alter the pseudo code.
>>>
>>> If you have a bug the first thing to do is to examine the pseudo code.
>>> Is it actually meeting the specification?
>>>
>>> If not fix it.
>>>
>>> The does the actual code perform the functions outlined by the pseudo
>>> code?
>>>
>>> If not, fix the code.
>>>
>>
>> Enhancements are not in the pseudo code
>
> They should be

It sounds like you have never done raw development.

/BAH

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#12490

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-05 14:53 +0100
Message-ID<nlge3v$ajs$2@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12484
On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/07/16 03:14, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2016 18:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/16 18:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>> On 04/07/2016 17:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/07/16 17:33, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/07/2016 15:01, Osmium wrote:
>>>>>>>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the
>>>>>>>>> chief
>>>>>>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>>>>>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>>>>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>>>>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>>>>>>>>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am used to each line of assembler having a comment. Subroutines were
>>>>>>> commented at the top. No pseudo code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually pseudo code would have been a dangerous distraction. When
>>>>>>> maintaining it I need to know what the code has to do (for a
>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>> data value) and what it actually does. Then I can make the two the
>>>>>>> same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, pseudo code is good, because that says what it has to do.
>>>>>> To anyone coming along blind with a bug to fix.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> No. At best pseudo code says what someone thinks how the code should
>>>>> have worked. It is now out of date and frequently inaccurate.
>>>>
>>>> That's because someone like you came along and hacked the code and
>>>> didn't alter the pseudo code.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a bug the first thing to do is to examine the pseudo code.
>>>> Is it actually meeting the specification?
>>>>
>>>> If not fix it.
>>>>
>>>> The does the actual code perform the functions outlined by the pseudo
>>>> code?
>>>>
>>>> If not, fix the code.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Enhancements are not in the pseudo code
>>
>> They should be
>
> It sounds like you have never done raw development.

Probably more than you have.

>
> /BAH
>


-- 
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's 
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

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#12491

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-05 09:55 -0400
Message-ID<7661577.489419715.506545.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12490
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 05/07/16 03:14, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/2016 18:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 04/07/16 18:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/07/2016 17:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/07/16 17:33, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 04/07/2016 15:01, Osmium wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write IIRC, but was maintainable and the
>>>>>>>>>> chief
>>>>>>>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
>>>>>>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>>>>>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>>>>>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used
>>>>>>>>>> for what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> logic, repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You actually lived and experienced that in real life?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am used to each line of assembler having a comment. Subroutines were
>>>>>>>> commented at the top. No pseudo code.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Actually pseudo code would have been a dangerous distraction. When
>>>>>>>> maintaining it I need to know what the code has to do (for a
>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>> data value) and what it actually does. Then I can make the two the
>>>>>>>> same.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> No, pseudo code is good, because that says what it has to do.
>>>>>>> To anyone coming along blind with a bug to fix.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No. At best pseudo code says what someone thinks how the code should
>>>>>> have worked. It is now out of date and frequently inaccurate.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's because someone like you came along and hacked the code and
>>>>> didn't alter the pseudo code.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you have a bug the first thing to do is to examine the pseudo code.
>>>>> Is it actually meeting the specification?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If not fix it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The does the actual code perform the functions outlined by the pseudo
>>>>> code?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If not, fix the code.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Enhancements are not in the pseudo code
>>> 
>>> They should be
>> 
>> It sounds like you have never done raw development.
> 
> Probably more than you have.
> 
>> 
>> /BAH
>> 
> 
> 

God, another troll.

-- 
Pete

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