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Groups > comp.sys.raspberry-pi > #11730 > unrolled thread

Is it a lost cause?

Started by"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid>
First post2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
Last post2016-07-05 14:28 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 788 — 65 participants

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Contents

  Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:02 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 17:43 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-13 23:05 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:52 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:55 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:53 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:27 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 15:05 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 14:09 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:07 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:02 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:56 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:13 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:39 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 08:46 +0200
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-17 10:51 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:14 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:54 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:57 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 13:02 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:45 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:32 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:56 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:59 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:48 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:22 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:28 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:56 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:48 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:57 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:05 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:24 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 13:03 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 13:10 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 12:28 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 15:37 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:19 +0300
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:08 +0300
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-17 16:09 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 22:58 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:03 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:24 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 03:47 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 23:55 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:03 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 10:20 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:43 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 04:38 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-02 14:00 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 12:09 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 12:36 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:32 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:49 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-01 22:17 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:10 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-02 21:35 +0300
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 20:45 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 22:14 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-02 21:42 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:33 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:45 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:36 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:20 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:38 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 12:03 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 15:17 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 18:28 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 03:14 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:17 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 09:55 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:15 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:42 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:51 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:45 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:54 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:10 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 20:16 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 22:12 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 21:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:15 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:26 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:35 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 18:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-04 09:01 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:55 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:11 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:01 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:32 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-05 17:11 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 14:44 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:19 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:01 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:30 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 17:31 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:30 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:57 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 14:51 -0400
                                  Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 23:18 +0000
                                    Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) - 2016-07-04 08:24 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:20 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 16:15 -0400
                            Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:55 +0000
                              Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:35 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-03 12:33 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:57 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-04 15:47 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:24 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:31 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:10 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:47 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 21:56 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 00:44 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:21 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 11:39 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:21 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:06 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 13:53 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 01:16 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:35 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 23:23 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 00:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:20 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 13:37 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:22 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:59 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 06:44 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 09:45 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:14 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:04 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 07:49 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 21:53 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 -0400
                  Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:05 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:05 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:30 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 12:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:40 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:42 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:53 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 15:20 -0400
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:50 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 16:28 -0500
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:37 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:03 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:08 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:13 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 06:36 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:37 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:12 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 19:52 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:30 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:51 +0000
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:32 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:44 +0000
                                      Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0000
                                        Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 15:01 +0000
                                            Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:49 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 10:45 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-06 12:05 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 11:41 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 08:59 -0400
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:00 +0200
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:46 -0400
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:56 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:52 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:25 +0000
                          Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:10 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:35 -0500
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-07-05 16:33 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:16 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:05 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:12 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 21:49 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-06 06:12 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 08:51 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:05 +0100
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-04 23:04 +0300
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 20:35 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:54 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:49 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-04 21:54 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0300
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:40 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-05 18:51 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:21 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:28 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:38 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:53 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-04 14:52 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 17:22 -0400
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:35 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:50 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:00 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:03 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 23:37 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 20:43 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-14 10:20 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:16 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-15 08:01 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 13:06 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 14:26 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 03:24 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 08:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:11 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 07:56 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-02 10:30 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 16:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 17:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 16:58 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 11:52 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-02 06:23 -0500
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:02 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:01 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:09 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:29 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:30 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 08:57 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:14 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 08:36 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:25 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 22:33 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:24 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:02 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 12:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 09:38 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:35 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:36 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:32 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:00 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-18 18:14 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-18 12:25 -0500
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:11 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:04 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:26 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:43 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:48 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:50 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:42 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:50 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:52 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Luke A. Guest <laguest@archeia.com> - 2016-07-01 20:28 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-01 20:21 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-01 23:10 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-01 22:35 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:35 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 11:24 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 11:21 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-02 12:39 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:01 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 13:51 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:32 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-02 19:51 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 18:39 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:36 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 18:56 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:14 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 15:28 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:23 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 17:35 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 19:48 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 15:01 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 20:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 13:17 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:24 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:29 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 12:09 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-05 17:38 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 18:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:30 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:29 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 23:07 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 12:45 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 09:05 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 13:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 07:37 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 08:51 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-06 15:09 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 00:26 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:12 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-04 12:47 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:43 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 18:40 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 09:14 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 13:00 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:46 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 14:59 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 14:08 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:27 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:34 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 16:57 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:23 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:06 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:17 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:17 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:10 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:28 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:34 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-07 14:45 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 16:27 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-07 11:53 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:33 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 19:30 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:38 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:19 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 14:22 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:30 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:51 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-07 07:47 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:41 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-09 00:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 12:51 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 13:05 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 14:12 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:21 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 19:35 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:55 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 10:40 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-09 09:02 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:28 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 16:39 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> - 2016-07-09 16:56 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 16:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:43 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 21:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 18:25 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:53 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 20:55 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-10 12:06 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-10 14:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-11 11:32 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:57 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 16:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:27 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:46 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 18:39 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:44 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:59 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-07-12 01:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:48 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 06:34 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-13 13:34 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 15:46 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:23 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:49 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:04 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:43 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 19:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:19 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:48 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 15:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:36 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-08 20:43 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2016-07-06 00:28 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:32 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-02 19:20 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rambo <Rambo@thisaintreal.org> - 2016-06-13 20:07 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:42 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:43 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:12 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:17 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:31 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 20:29 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:48 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 08:11 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:14 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:23 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:46 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 10:22 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:01 +0100
                          OT was Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-14 12:09 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:59 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:30 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:51 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-14 15:24 -0700
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-14 17:07 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:14 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:45 +0200
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:34 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:44 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:21 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:15 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:42 +0200
                  Symbolics [Re: Is it a lost cause?] colonel_hack@yahoo.com - 2016-06-15 17:08 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:05 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:10 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:29 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:41 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:42 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:29 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:47 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:24 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:37 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:42 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 13:53 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:20 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Brian Reay <no.sp@m.com> - 2016-06-14 08:35 -0700
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:45 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:18 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 15:57 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:36 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:40 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:59 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:19 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 21:58 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:15 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:23 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 10:01 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:40 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 12:19 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:37 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:39 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:19 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:53 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:17 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:50 +0300
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:59 +1000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:06 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 19:44 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:55 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 11:49 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:31 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:29 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-15 18:20 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:27 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 17:18 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:58 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-16 07:38 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 08:59 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:34 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-16 07:49 -0500
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-17 12:26 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 13:06 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 14:10 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 20:11 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Hall <sweet_stevie@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 19:42 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:54 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:48 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:07 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 11:16 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:40 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:10 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:05 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 19:04 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-16 09:37 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:42 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:55 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:47 +1000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:53 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 22:37 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-16 09:49 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:55 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-18 02:03 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 16:24 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-17 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-17 20:05 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 12:27 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 16:29 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:35 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 19:54 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:15 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 10:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:05 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:52 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:32 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:36 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 09:08 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:26 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:58 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:53 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:45 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-18 11:02 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 11:13 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-06-18 15:19 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:35 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:50 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:58 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:09 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:11 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:13 +0300
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 14:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:56 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 21:58 +0300
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:49 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 11:17 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:04 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:31 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-19 21:49 +0300
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-20 07:41 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:54 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:55 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:24 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-19 14:13 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 22:12 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-19 19:24 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:27 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:25 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 12:10 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 17:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:29 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 17:57 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 19:18 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 21:18 +0300
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 18:38 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:57 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:17 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 19:41 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:52 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:02 +0300
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:01 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-07-03 13:50 -0400
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 20:11 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 23:05 +0000
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 07:05 +0100
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:56 +0200
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 12:54 +0100
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 13:14 +0100
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 16:19 +0100
                                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:51 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-07-04 01:12 -0400
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 21:18 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-20 19:04 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-21 06:16 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 20:01 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 21:29 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 13:37 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:29 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:25 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-20 06:57 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 10:09 +0300
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 08:31 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:50 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:43 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:07 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:47 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:38 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 18:52 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 10:55 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 15:58 -0500
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 21:07 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:27 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:06 +0200
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:31 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:17 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 18:47 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2016-06-19 12:13 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-19 08:10 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-19 10:59 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-06-19 18:13 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-06-21 03:09 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 19:59 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-17 17:40 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 22:25 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-18 10:56 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 19:00 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-18 19:33 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 10:46 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 10:51 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 12:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-19 13:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 16:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 17:17 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:19 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 07:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-19 18:44 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-19 21:08 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 11:16 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-20 15:26 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 16:44 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 20:07 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:35 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 19:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:34 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:12 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:33 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 07:23 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 14:15 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:50 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:45 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:51 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 07:58 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 08:41 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:46 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:31 -0400
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 12:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:36 +0100
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:31 +0000
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0000
        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 15:42 +0000
          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:54 +0000
            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 18:33 +0000
              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:14 +0000
                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:19 +0000
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 21:42 +0000
    Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 21:47 +0000
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 17:55 -0400
      Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 02:46 +0000
        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 08:58 +0100
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 07:54 -0700
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 15:43 -0700
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 11:57 -0400
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-05 16:06 +0000
              Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 14:05 -0400
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 13:24 -0500
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 14:29 -0400
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:59 +0000
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 18:31 +0000
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 15:32 -0400
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 20:05 +0000
                      Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 22:36 -0400
                        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:14 +0000
                        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 07:59 +0000
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:59 +0000
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 20:05 +0000
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:57 +0000
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:16 +0000
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 15:38 -0700
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dennis <dennis@none.none> - 2016-07-04 19:55 -0500
        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-05 12:46 -0500
          Re: 360 architecture, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0000
          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:20 +0000
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:28 +0000

Page 9 of 40 — ← Prev page 1 … 7 8 [9] 10 11 … 40  Next page →


#12333

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 12:21 +0000
Message-ID<nlavvf$c33$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12331
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 11:39:20 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

> This is a *low* level language. Anathema to have bounds checking, and
> anyway arrays were too high level.
>
I thought that would be the case.
 
> In general, if A contained a memory address, then A was an array
> pointer, regardless of what it pointed to. Then the first element was
> A!0, second was A!1, etc. Or A!B, where B was an arbitary value. 
> This was syntactic sugar for adding A to B and then using the resulting
> address for memory access.
> 
Understood, and not to different from C, PL/9 etc.

> To declare an array, you generally used a library function ('newvec' I
> think) that was like malloc in C (and on which malloc was based), thus
> getting the address of some memory you could treat as an array. Or you
> could declare a local array with:
>   let x = vec 100
> which declared 102 cells (0 to 100, plus one (named x) that pointed to
> the base of the 101 cells).
>
Thanks for the reminder. I think I'd have looked at BCPL in 1974, so I 
was certain it must have had arrays or it couldn't have been used to 
write the GPM, but I've entirely forgotten its syntax apart from it being 
block structured.  

> Or you could just use any address you liked, e.g. the address of a
> device register if it was memory mapped. I worked on a terminal
> concentrator where we used that a lot.
> 
> One last weird one. You could declare a table of predefined values:
>   let x = TABLE 1,2,3,4,5
> or whatever. x would get the address of the first cell. By filling the
> table with actual machine instructions, you could then execute them
> with:
>   goto x
> or even
>   x()
>
IOW implementing a computed goto or function call would be as straight 
forward as doing it in assembler - and very similar too.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12337

FromBob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date2016-07-03 13:06 +0000
Message-ID<dtsgtrFblurU25@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#12333
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 12:21:03 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 11:39:20 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>> In general, if A contained a memory address, then A was an array
>> pointer, regardless of what it pointed to. Then the first element was
>> A!0, second was A!1, etc. Or A!B, where B was an arbitary value.
>> This was syntactic sugar for adding A to B and then using the resulting
>> address for memory access.
>> 
> Understood, and not to different from C, PL/9 etc.

Exactly. C is much the same, but with a bit more syntactic sugar.

>> To declare an array, you generally used a library function ('newvec' I
>> think) that was like malloc in C (and on which malloc was based), thus
>> getting the address of some memory you could treat as an array. Or you
>> could declare a local array with:
>>   let x = vec 100
>> which declared 102 cells (0 to 100, plus one (named x) that pointed to
>> the base of the 101 cells).
>>
> Thanks for the reminder. I think I'd have looked at BCPL in 1974, so I
> was certain it must have had arrays or it couldn't have been used to
> write the GPM, but I've entirely forgotten its syntax apart from it
> being block structured.

There seem to be several implementations of GPM these days, nit all 
correct apparently. I have never used it in anger, but I use ML/I quite a 
bit (e.g. to make it easier to write firewall rules).

>> One last weird one. You could declare a table of predefined values:
>>   let x = TABLE 1,2,3,4,5
>> or whatever. x would get the address of the first cell. By filling the
>> table with actual machine instructions, you could then execute them
>> with:
>>   goto x
>> or even
>>   x()
>>
> IOW implementing a computed goto or function call would be as straight
> forward as doing it in assembler - and very similar too.

Yes, you could have arrays of functions, for example - with a *much* 
simpler syntax than you have for C - but that's because BCPL is both 
typeless, and there is no check either on the number of arguments passed 
to a function!



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#12335

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-07-03 13:53 +0100
Message-ID<20160703135320.2c5ca53588ec29548c3dd06a@eircom.net>
In reply to#12331
On 3 Jul 2016 11:39:20 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> To declare an array, you generally used a library function ('newvec' I 
> think) that was like malloc in C (and on which malloc was based), thus 
> getting the address of some memory you could treat as an array. 

	The size of an array was held in the cell[1] preceding the array
(ie A!-1), there were also library functions for packing and unpacking
strings of characters into arrays of cells.

1: They were called words when I learned BCPL.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#12336

FromBob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date2016-07-03 13:02 +0000
Message-ID<dtsgn1FblurU24@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#12335
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 13:53:20 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 3 Jul 2016 11:39:20 GMT Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> 
>> To declare an array, you generally used a library function ('newvec' I
>> think) that was like malloc in C (and on which malloc was based), thus
>> getting the address of some memory you could treat as an array.
> 
> 	The size of an array was held in the cell[1] preceding the array
> (ie A!-1),

That was a mere convention, and not widely observed. Not part of the 
language.

> there were also library functions for packing and unpacking
> strings of characters into arrays of cells.

Of course.

> 1: They were called words when I learned BCPL.

Yes, the term 'cell' came later on when 'words' were not a term used on 
most target systems.




-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#12310

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 01:16 +0000
Message-ID<nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12300
On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> 
> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>
Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
starting to process its input.

Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
a COBOL program.

IOW, rather than doing something obvious like:

  MAIN_LOOP SECTION.
  ML-1.
    GO TO READ-CARDS, READ-PAPER-TAPE, READ-MAG-TAPE DEPENDING ON
    SELECTED-INPUT.
  ML-2
    ....
at the start of the main loop, it was obviously better to write:

    MAIN_LOOP SECTION.
  ML-1.
    GO TO READ-CARDS.
  ML-2.
    ....

and somewhere else, before the main loop was entered you'd have hidden 
code to do this:

  SET_INPUT SECTION.
  SI-1.
    IF PAPER-TAPE-SELECTED
       ALTER ML-1 TO PROCEED TO READ-PAPER TAPE.
    IF MAG-TALE SELECTED
       ALTER ML-1 TO PROCEED TO READ-MAG-TAPE.
    .... MORE INITIALISATION ....

And before you ask, COBOL had computed GO TO from the beginning but AFAICT 
still doesn't have anything like a PERFORM...DEPENDING statement.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12312

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-02 22:35 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e243d964e0941098a30e@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12310
In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
says...
> 
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >
> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
> starting to process its input.
> 
> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
> a COBOL program.

This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
with DD cards.
> 
> IOW, rather than doing something obvious like:
> 
>   MAIN_LOOP SECTION.
>   ML-1.
>     GO TO READ-CARDS, READ-PAPER-TAPE, READ-MAG-TAPE DEPENDING ON
>     SELECTED-INPUT.
>   ML-2
>     ....
> at the start of the main loop, it was obviously better to write:
> 
>     MAIN_LOOP SECTION.
>   ML-1.
>     GO TO READ-CARDS.
>   ML-2.
>     ....
> 
> and somewhere else, before the main loop was entered you'd have hidden 
> code to do this:
> 
>   SET_INPUT SECTION.
>   SI-1.
>     IF PAPER-TAPE-SELECTED
>        ALTER ML-1 TO PROCEED TO READ-PAPER TAPE.
>     IF MAG-TALE SELECTED
>        ALTER ML-1 TO PROCEED TO READ-MAG-TAPE.
>     .... MORE INITIALISATION ....
> 
> And before you ask, COBOL had computed GO TO from the beginning but AFAICT 
> still doesn't have anything like a PERFORM...DEPENDING statement.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12314

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-02 23:23 -0400
Message-ID<nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12312
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
> says...
>> 
>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> 
>> > 
>> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>> >
>> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>> starting to process its input.
>> 
>> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>> a COBOL program.
>
> This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
> with DD cards.

Yeah, but it's just an example.

So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:

http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm

(The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)

I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
for the paper tape.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#12316

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-03 00:07 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e259626577963498a310@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12314
In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> 
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
> > says...
> >> 
> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> 
> >> > 
> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >> >
> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
> >> starting to process its input.
> >> 
> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
> >> a COBOL program.
> >
> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
> > with DD cards.
> 
> Yeah, but it's just an example.
> 
> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
> 
> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
> 
> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
> 
> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
> for the paper tape.

I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".

I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
JCL to send output to a 2741.

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#12345

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-03 11:20 -0400
Message-ID<nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12316
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> 
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>> > says...
>> >> 
>> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > 
>> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>> >> >
>> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>> >> starting to process its input.
>> >> 
>> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>> >> a COBOL program.
>> >
>> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>> > with DD cards.
>> 
>> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>> 
>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>> 
>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>> 
>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>> 
>> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>> for the paper tape.
>
> I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
> somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>
> I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
> JCL to send output to a 2741.

Nope, you won't find that.
I've done a lot of BTAM.
There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
You just allocate the UCB.
When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
use the device.

-- 
Dan Espen

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12364

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-03 13:37 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e317635e3d238898a319@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12345
In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> 
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> 
> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> 
> >> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
> >> > says...
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >> >> >
> >> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
> >> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
> >> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
> >> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
> >> >> starting to process its input.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
> >> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
> >> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
> >> >> a COBOL program.
> >> >
> >> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
> >> > with DD cards.
> >> 
> >> Yeah, but it's just an example.
> >> 
> >> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
> >> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
> >> 
> >> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
> >> 
> >> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
> >> 
> >> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
> >> for the paper tape.
> >
> > I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
> > somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
> >
> > I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
> > JCL to send output to a 2741.
> 
> Nope, you won't find that.
> I've done a lot of BTAM.
> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
> You just allocate the UCB.
> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
> use the device.

IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12385

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
Message-ID<nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12364
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> 
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> >> 
>> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> 
>> >> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>> >> > says...
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> > 
>> >> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>> >> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>> >> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>> >> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>> >> >> starting to process its input.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>> >> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>> >> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>> >> >> a COBOL program.
>> >> >
>> >> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>> >> > with DD cards.
>> >> 
>> >> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>> >> 
>> >> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>> >> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>> >> 
>> >> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>> >> 
>> >> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>> >> 
>> >> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>> >> for the paper tape.
>> >
>> > I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
>> > somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>> >
>> > I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
>> > JCL to send output to a 2741.
>> 
>> Nope, you won't find that.
>> I've done a lot of BTAM.
>> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
>> You just allocate the UCB.
>> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
>> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
>> use the device.
>
> IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.

Please, feel free to provide a link.
That's the way I remember it.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#12387

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-04 13:22 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e4655957ba847b98a31f@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12385
In article <1531408310.489340818.426826.peter_flass-
yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>, peter_flass@yahoo.com says...
> 
> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> 
> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> 
> >>> In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >>>> 
> >>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
> >>>>>>>>> says...
> >>>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >>>>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
> >>>>>>>>>> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
> >>>>>>>>>> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
> >>>>>>>>>> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
> >>>>>>>>>> starting to process its input.
> >>>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
> >>>>>>>>>> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
> >>>>>>>>>> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
> >>>>>>>>>> a COBOL program.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
> >>>>>>>>> with DD cards.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Yeah, but it's just an example.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
> >>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
> >>>>>>>> for the paper tape.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
> >>>>>>> somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
> >>>>>>> JCL to send output to a 2741.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Nope, you won't find that.
> >>>>>> I've done a lot of BTAM.
> >>>>>> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
> >>>>>> You just allocate the UCB.
> >>>>>> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
> >>>>>> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
> >>>>>> use the device.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Please, feel free to provide a link.
> >>>> That's the way I remember it.
> >>> 
> >>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
> >>> 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm
> >> 
> >> Looks like you are right.
> >> Sure can't remember ever having to use that.
> > 
> > IBM has made a lot of changes in their OS through the years, maybe 
> > that's one of them.
> > 
> 
> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
> were card only.

I suspect I'd have more luck with our data center if anybody can 
remember where the paper docs got stored.  Bitsavers is spotty--while 
they have some old stuff their collection is far from complete.  Really 
more effort than I want to put into it either way.  If I actually had a 
need to connect paper tape to the Z it would be a different story.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12400

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-04 10:59 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e443b21d2c957098a31d@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12385
In article <nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> 
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> 
> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> 
> >> > In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> >> 
> >> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >> 
> >> >> > In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
> >> >> >> > says...
> >> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
> >> >> >> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
> >> >> >> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
> >> >> >> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
> >> >> >> >> starting to process its input.
> >> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
> >> >> >> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
> >> >> >> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
> >> >> >> >> a COBOL program.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
> >> >> >> > with DD cards.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> Yeah, but it's just an example.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
> >> >> >> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
> >> >> >> for the paper tape.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
> >> >> > somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
> >> >> > JCL to send output to a 2741.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Nope, you won't find that.
> >> >> I've done a lot of BTAM.
> >> >> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
> >> >> You just allocate the UCB.
> >> >> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
> >> >> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
> >> >> use the device.
> >> >
> >> > IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
> >> 
> >> Please, feel free to provide a link.
> >> That's the way I remember it.
> >
> > http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
> > 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm
> 
> Looks like you are right.
> Sure can't remember ever having to use that.

IBM has made a lot of changes in their OS through the years, maybe 
that's one of them.

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#12408

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
Message-ID<nleb3o$1df$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12400
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>> 
>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>> In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>> 
>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>>>>>>>>>>> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>>>>>>>>>>> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>>>>>>>>>>> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>>>>>>>>>>> starting to process its input.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>>>>>>>>>>> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>>>>>>>>>>> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>>>>>>>>>>> a COBOL program.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>>>>>>>>>> with DD cards.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>>>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>>>>>>>>> for the paper tape.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
>>>>>>>> somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
>>>>>>>> JCL to send output to a 2741.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nope, you won't find that.
>>>>>>> I've done a lot of BTAM.
>>>>>>> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
>>>>>>> You just allocate the UCB.
>>>>>>> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
>>>>>>> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
>>>>>>> use the device.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please, feel free to provide a link.
>>>>> That's the way I remember it.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
>>>> 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm
>>> 
>>> Looks like you are right.
>>> Sure can't remember ever having to use that.
>> 
>> IBM has made a lot of changes in their OS through the years, maybe 
>> that's one of them.
>
> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
> were card only.

Looks relatively current to me. z/OS in the title.
I should mention that the subject was needing separate code.
BTAM open looks something like other opens, same with read/write/close,
but usually more operands and things like polling or flow control have
to be addressed.
The DCB for BTAM varies a lot.
  
Even though I see DSORG=CX in the JCL DD statement, I doubt that would let you
take a routine reading mag tape and make it read paper tape by changing
the JCL.

-- 
Dan Espen

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12419

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
Message-ID<1018723302.489352848.193954.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12400
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
>> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
>> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
>> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
>> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
>> were card only.
> 
> TTY had paper tape ... univ. had a some 33 and one 35
> http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1319357
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33
> 
> "the Model 33 ASR, (Automatic Send and Receive), which has a built in
> 8-level punched tape reader and tape punch;"
> 
> "The Model 33 was one of the first products to employ the then new ASCII
> code. A companion Model 32 used the more established five-level Baudot
> code. Because of its low price and ASCII-compatibility, the Model 33 was
> widely used with early minicomputers."

I recall using paper tape on a TTY, but I believe we just turned it on and
off manually, and to the computer it was the same as typing on the keyboard
or printing a file.

> 
> ... snip ...
> 
> I don't remember seeing 1052 with 1054/1055 paper tape reader/punch
> (but common with tty)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1050
> 
> some people at science center
> http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
> 
> came out Jan1968 to univ. installing CP67, it had 1052 & 2741 terminal
> support ... including dynamic terminal identification ... it played
> games switching the SAD CCW to switch port-scanner type on line and some
> trivial transmission to determine terminal type. I added the TTY/ASCII
> to support the univ ascii tty devices ... extending the dynamic terminal
> type games with SAD CCW for ascii tty.
> 
> I then wanted to setup single dialin phone number for all terminals
> (single "hunt group") ... but it didn't quite worked because they had
> taken short-cut ... while SAD CCW would change port-scanner type, the
> line speed was hard wired for each port. It worked for 1052 & 2741
> because they operated at same line speed ... while TTY terminals were
> different line speed (requiring different dial in numbers for 1052/2741
> and TTY). The dynamic terminal type still worked ... as long as the
> terminal was connected to port with correct line speed.
> 
> this was part of motivation for the univ to start clone controller
> project, take an Interdata/3 programmed to emulate mainframe terminal
> controller ... and do dynamic terminal line speed, reverse engineer
> channel interface and build channel interface board for Interdata/3.
> Later this was enhanced with an Interdata/4 to handle the mainframe
> channel interface and cluster of Interdate/3s handling the port scanner
> functions. Four of us get written up as responsible for (some part of)
> mainframe clone controller business with Interdata is marketing the box.
> When Perkin/Elmer buys Interdata, it is continued to be sold under
> P/E logo.
> 
> some past posts
> http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm
> 
> note that IBM help originate ASCII
> http://www.bobbemer.com/ASCII.HTM
> http://www.bobbemer.com/FATHEROF.HTM
> http://www.bobbemer.com/HISTORY.HTM
> 
> and tale of "the biggest computer goof ever", mainframe became EBCDIC
> (instead of ASCII)
> http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM
> 
> and for other drift, recent thread in ibm-main group referencing
> connection between cp/67 and ms/dos
> http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#103 Multithreaded output to stderr and stdout
> 



-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12422

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
Message-ID<1531408310.489340818.426826.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12400
J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> 
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>> 
>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>>>>>>>>>> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>>>>>>>>>> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>>>>>>>>>> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>>>>>>>>>> starting to process its input.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>>>>>>>>>> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>>>>>>>>>> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>>>>>>>>>> a COBOL program.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>>>>>>>>> with DD cards.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>>>>>>>> for the paper tape.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
>>>>>>> somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
>>>>>>> JCL to send output to a 2741.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nope, you won't find that.
>>>>>> I've done a lot of BTAM.
>>>>>> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
>>>>>> You just allocate the UCB.
>>>>>> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
>>>>>> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
>>>>>> use the device.
>>>>> 
>>>>> IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
>>>> 
>>>> Please, feel free to provide a link.
>>>> That's the way I remember it.
>>> 
>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
>>> 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm
>> 
>> Looks like you are right.
>> Sure can't remember ever having to use that.
> 
> IBM has made a lot of changes in their OS through the years, maybe 
> that's one of them.
> 

So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
were card only.

-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12449

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
Message-ID<87lh1hbap1.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#12422
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
> were card only.

TTY had paper tape ... univ. had a some 33 and one 35
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1319357
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33

"the Model 33 ASR, (Automatic Send and Receive), which has a built in
8-level punched tape reader and tape punch;"

"The Model 33 was one of the first products to employ the then new ASCII
code. A companion Model 32 used the more established five-level Baudot
code. Because of its low price and ASCII-compatibility, the Model 33 was
widely used with early minicomputers."

... snip ...

I don't remember seeing 1052 with 1054/1055 paper tape reader/punch
(but common with tty)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1050

some people at science center
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

came out Jan1968 to univ. installing CP67, it had 1052 & 2741 terminal
support ... including dynamic terminal identification ... it played
games switching the SAD CCW to switch port-scanner type on line and some
trivial transmission to determine terminal type. I added the TTY/ASCII
to support the univ ascii tty devices ... extending the dynamic terminal
type games with SAD CCW for ascii tty.

I then wanted to setup single dialin phone number for all terminals
(single "hunt group") ... but it didn't quite worked because they had
taken short-cut ... while SAD CCW would change port-scanner type, the
line speed was hard wired for each port. It worked for 1052 & 2741
because they operated at same line speed ... while TTY terminals were
different line speed (requiring different dial in numbers for 1052/2741
and TTY). The dynamic terminal type still worked ... as long as the
terminal was connected to port with correct line speed.

this was part of motivation for the univ to start clone controller
project, take an Interdata/3 programmed to emulate mainframe terminal
controller ... and do dynamic terminal line speed, reverse engineer
channel interface and build channel interface board for Interdata/3.
Later this was enhanced with an Interdata/4 to handle the mainframe
channel interface and cluster of Interdate/3s handling the port scanner
functions. Four of us get written up as responsible for (some part of)
mainframe clone controller business with Interdata is marketing the box.
When Perkin/Elmer buys Interdata, it is continued to be sold under
P/E logo.

some past posts
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm

note that IBM help originate ASCII
http://www.bobbemer.com/ASCII.HTM
http://www.bobbemer.com/FATHEROF.HTM
http://www.bobbemer.com/HISTORY.HTM

and tale of "the biggest computer goof ever", mainframe became EBCDIC
(instead of ASCII)
http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM

and for other drift, recent thread in ibm-main group referencing
connection between cp/67 and ms/dos
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#103 Multithreaded output to stderr and stdout

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12470

Fromjeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
Date2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
Message-ID<nlfhb9$ada$1@panix3.panix.com>
In reply to#12422
>>>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>>>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>>>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)

>So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
>360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
>in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
>would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
>System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape,
>but All the ones I saw were card only.

CNC machines used paper tape well into the 80s.
I suspect offline machines converted punched cards or tape
to paper tape.
Later model FACET paper tape punches
are rather intelligent and programmable for end-of-line handling, etc.
which is ideal for offline copying & translation.

One of the 2 IBM 1130s I used around 1980 at the Cooper Union
had the paper tape punch but no tape reader.
I never got around to interfacing the Tally paper tape reader
from the LGP21 to the 1130: they seemed indentical with 48v solenoids
for tape motion, 8 star wheels to mechanically read the tape.
Both 1130s had the 1442 card reader/punch, which were a pleasure to use.

-- jeffj

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#12474

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
Message-ID<20160705085226.431eee89c28f790f1c4f5364@eircom.net>
In reply to#12470
On 5 Jul 2016 01:42:01 -0400
jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) wrote:

> Both 1130s had the 1442 card reader/punch, which were a pleasure to use.

	Right up to the moment some wazzock put a deck in with a damaged
card, the slightest kink on the leading edge of a card pretty much
guaranteed that two or three cards would be shredded and spread throughout
the inner workings, many of use became proficient with the card saw.

	Our 1130 was replaced by an Eclipse and the 1442 with a table top
card reader that used an air jet to fan the bottom of the stack instead of
a precision 1.00000000000001 card thickness slot. The demo was impressive,
one card in the deck was removed, crumpled, roughly flattened and put back
in the deck. When it went through there was a sort of gulping sound but no
read error, and no mess of shredded cards to sort out.

	The perfect card reader - pity it was just in time for us to stop
using cards, the Eclipes was multi-user, had terminals and plenty of disk.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#12576

Fromsidd@situ.com (sidd)
Date2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
Message-ID<nlhs5l$dg4$1@Lazarus.situ.com>
In reply to#12470
In article <nlfhb9$ada$1@panix3.panix.com>, Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>
>CNC machines used paper tape well into the 80s.

i used these then, lathes with sixfoot swings and mills with
beds you could lie down on. But the cleverest thing i thought was
the temperature control, all analog.

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