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Groups > comp.sys.raspberry-pi > #11730 > unrolled thread

Is it a lost cause?

Started by"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid>
First post2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
Last post2016-07-05 14:28 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 788 — 65 participants

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Contents

  Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:02 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 17:43 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-13 23:05 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:52 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:55 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:53 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:27 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 15:05 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 14:09 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:07 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:02 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:56 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:13 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:39 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 08:46 +0200
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-17 10:51 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:14 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:54 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:57 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 13:02 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:45 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:32 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:56 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:59 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:48 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:22 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:28 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:56 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:48 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:57 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:05 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:24 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 13:03 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 13:10 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 12:28 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 15:37 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:19 +0300
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:08 +0300
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-17 16:09 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 22:58 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:03 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:24 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 03:47 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 23:55 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:03 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 10:20 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:43 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 04:38 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-02 14:00 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 12:09 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 12:36 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:32 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:49 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-01 22:17 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:10 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-02 21:35 +0300
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 20:45 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 22:14 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-02 21:42 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:33 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:45 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:36 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:20 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:38 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 12:03 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 15:17 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 18:28 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 03:14 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:17 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 09:55 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:15 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:42 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:51 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:45 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:54 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:10 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 20:16 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 22:12 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 21:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:15 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:26 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:35 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 18:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-04 09:01 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:55 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:11 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:01 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:32 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-05 17:11 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 14:44 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:19 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:01 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:30 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 17:31 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:30 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:57 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 14:51 -0400
                                  Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 23:18 +0000
                                    Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) - 2016-07-04 08:24 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:20 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 16:15 -0400
                            Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:55 +0000
                              Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:35 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-03 12:33 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:57 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-04 15:47 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:24 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:31 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:10 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:47 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 21:56 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 00:44 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:21 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 11:39 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:21 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:06 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 13:53 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 01:16 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:35 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 23:23 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 00:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:20 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 13:37 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:22 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:59 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 06:44 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 09:45 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:14 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:04 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 07:49 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 21:53 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 -0400
                  Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:05 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:05 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:30 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 12:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:40 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:42 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:53 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 15:20 -0400
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:50 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 16:28 -0500
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:37 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:03 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:08 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:13 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 06:36 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:37 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:12 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 19:52 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:30 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:51 +0000
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:32 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:44 +0000
                                      Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0000
                                        Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 15:01 +0000
                                            Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:49 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 10:45 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-06 12:05 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 11:41 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 08:59 -0400
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:00 +0200
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:46 -0400
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:56 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:52 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:25 +0000
                          Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:10 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:35 -0500
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-07-05 16:33 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:16 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:05 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:12 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 21:49 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-06 06:12 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 08:51 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:05 +0100
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-04 23:04 +0300
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 20:35 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:54 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:49 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-04 21:54 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0300
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:40 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-05 18:51 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:21 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:28 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:38 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:53 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-04 14:52 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 17:22 -0400
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:35 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:50 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:00 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:03 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 23:37 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 20:43 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-14 10:20 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:16 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-15 08:01 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 13:06 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 14:26 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 03:24 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 08:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:11 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 07:56 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-02 10:30 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 16:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 17:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 16:58 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 11:52 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-02 06:23 -0500
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:02 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:01 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:09 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:29 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:30 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 08:57 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:14 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 08:36 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:25 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 22:33 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:24 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:02 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 12:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 09:38 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:35 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:36 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:32 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:00 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-18 18:14 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-18 12:25 -0500
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:11 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:04 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:26 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:43 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:48 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:50 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:42 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:50 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:52 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Luke A. Guest <laguest@archeia.com> - 2016-07-01 20:28 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-01 20:21 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-01 23:10 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-01 22:35 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:35 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 11:24 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 11:21 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-02 12:39 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:01 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 13:51 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:32 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-02 19:51 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 18:39 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:36 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 18:56 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:14 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 15:28 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:23 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 17:35 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 19:48 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 15:01 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 20:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 13:17 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:24 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:29 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 12:09 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-05 17:38 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 18:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:30 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:29 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 23:07 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 12:45 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 09:05 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 13:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 07:37 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 08:51 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-06 15:09 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 00:26 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:12 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-04 12:47 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:43 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 18:40 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 09:14 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 13:00 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:46 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 14:59 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 14:08 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:27 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:34 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 16:57 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:23 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:06 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:17 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:17 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:10 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:28 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:34 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-07 14:45 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 16:27 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-07 11:53 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:33 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 19:30 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:38 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:19 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 14:22 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:30 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:51 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-07 07:47 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:41 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-09 00:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 12:51 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 13:05 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 14:12 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:21 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 19:35 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:55 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 10:40 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-09 09:02 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:28 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 16:39 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> - 2016-07-09 16:56 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 16:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:43 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 21:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 18:25 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:53 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 20:55 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-10 12:06 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-10 14:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-11 11:32 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:57 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 16:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:27 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:46 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 18:39 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:44 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:59 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-07-12 01:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:48 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 06:34 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-13 13:34 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 15:46 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:23 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:49 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:04 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:43 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 19:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:19 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:48 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 15:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:36 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-08 20:43 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2016-07-06 00:28 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:32 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-02 19:20 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rambo <Rambo@thisaintreal.org> - 2016-06-13 20:07 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:42 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:43 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:12 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:17 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:31 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 20:29 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:48 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 08:11 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:14 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:23 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:46 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 10:22 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:01 +0100
                          OT was Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-14 12:09 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:59 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:30 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:51 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-14 15:24 -0700
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-14 17:07 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:14 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:45 +0200
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:34 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:44 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:21 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:15 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:42 +0200
                  Symbolics [Re: Is it a lost cause?] colonel_hack@yahoo.com - 2016-06-15 17:08 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:05 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:10 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:29 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:41 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:42 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:29 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:47 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:24 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:37 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:42 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 13:53 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:20 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Brian Reay <no.sp@m.com> - 2016-06-14 08:35 -0700
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:45 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:18 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 15:57 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:36 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:40 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:59 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:19 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 21:58 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:15 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:23 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 10:01 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:40 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 12:19 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:37 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:39 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:19 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:53 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:17 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:50 +0300
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:59 +1000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:06 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 19:44 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:55 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 11:49 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:31 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:29 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-15 18:20 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:27 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 17:18 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:58 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-16 07:38 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 08:59 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:34 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-16 07:49 -0500
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-17 12:26 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 13:06 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 14:10 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 20:11 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Hall <sweet_stevie@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 19:42 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:54 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:48 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:07 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 11:16 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:40 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:10 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:05 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 19:04 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-16 09:37 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:42 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:55 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:47 +1000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:53 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 22:37 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-16 09:49 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:55 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-18 02:03 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 16:24 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-17 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-17 20:05 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 12:27 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 16:29 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:35 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 19:54 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:15 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 10:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:05 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:52 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:32 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:36 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 09:08 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:26 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:58 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:53 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:45 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-18 11:02 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 11:13 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-06-18 15:19 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:35 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:50 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:58 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:09 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:11 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:13 +0300
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 14:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:56 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 21:58 +0300
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:49 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 11:17 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:04 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:31 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-19 21:49 +0300
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-20 07:41 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:54 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:55 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:24 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-19 14:13 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 22:12 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-19 19:24 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:27 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:25 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 12:10 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 17:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:29 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 17:57 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 19:18 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 21:18 +0300
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 18:38 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:57 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:17 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 19:41 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 20:52 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:02 +0300
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:01 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-07-03 13:50 -0400
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 20:11 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 23:05 +0000
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 07:05 +0100
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:56 +0200
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 12:54 +0100
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 13:14 +0100
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 16:19 +0100
                                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:51 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-07-04 01:12 -0400
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 21:18 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-20 19:04 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-21 06:16 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 20:01 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 21:29 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 13:37 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:29 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:25 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-20 06:57 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 10:09 +0300
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 08:31 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:50 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:43 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:07 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:47 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:38 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 18:52 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 10:55 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 15:58 -0500
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 21:07 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:27 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:06 +0200
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:31 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:17 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 18:47 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2016-06-19 12:13 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-19 08:10 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-19 10:59 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-06-19 18:13 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-06-21 03:09 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 19:59 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-17 17:40 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 22:25 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-18 10:56 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 19:00 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-18 19:33 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 10:46 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 10:51 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 12:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-19 13:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 16:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 17:17 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:19 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 07:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-19 18:44 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-19 21:08 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 11:16 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-20 15:26 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 16:44 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-20 20:07 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:35 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-19 19:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:34 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:12 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:33 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 07:23 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 14:15 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:50 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:45 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:51 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 07:58 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 08:41 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:46 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:31 -0400
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 12:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:36 +0100
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:31 +0000
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0000
        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 15:42 +0000
          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:54 +0000
            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 18:33 +0000
              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:14 +0000
                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:19 +0000
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 21:42 +0000
    Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 21:47 +0000
    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 17:55 -0400
      Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 02:46 +0000
        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 08:58 +0100
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 07:54 -0700
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 15:43 -0700
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 11:57 -0400
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-05 16:06 +0000
              Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 14:05 -0400
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 13:24 -0500
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 14:29 -0400
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:59 +0000
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 18:31 +0000
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 15:32 -0400
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 20:05 +0000
                      Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 22:36 -0400
                        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:14 +0000
                        Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 07:59 +0000
                  Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:59 +0000
                    Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-05 20:05 +0000
                Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 19:57 +0000
          Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:16 +0000
            Re: S/360 stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-05 15:38 -0700
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Dennis <dennis@none.none> - 2016-07-04 19:55 -0500
        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-05 12:46 -0500
          Re: 360 architecture, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0000
          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 07:20 +0000
      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:28 +0000

Page 22 of 40 — ← Prev page 1 … 20 21 [22] 23 24 … 40  Next page →


#12662

FromGordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net>
Date2016-07-09 14:21 +0000
Message-ID<nlr19n$qvd$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12658
In article <nlqt7t$4q0$1@news.albasani.net>,
The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 09/07/16 14:05, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:51:52 +0100, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>
>>> Time someone added a full function BASIC.
>>>
>> Well, its better than RPG I suppose, and a bit easier to read than FORTH.
>>
>>> As well as a teaching tool BASIC is useful for debugging algorithms.
>>>
>> I wouldn't ever teach somebody the program with such an unstructured
>> language. Python is a better initial teaching tool and can probably do
>> anything to BASIC can, and my preferred languages for sorting out an
>> algorithm are C and Java.
>>
>> But of course ymmv.
>>
>>
>BASIC is ok to start people coding and for very simple jobs.

Part of the issue now is that you can't jsut turn a computer on, wait
(oh, 0.1 to 0.5 seconds) for the beep then start typing BASIC into it...

It has to be booted - from disk/sd/network... then you need to login,
run up the GUI (if it doesn't auto start), then work out where to find
a terminal emulator utility, or the BASIC interpreter icon in the menus...

Then the bell goes and its off to the next clas...

This is the same for all everything now - be it Python, Scratch, Java,
etc.

I think its rather sad, really.

I did try an experiment way back to see just how fast I could get my BASIC
running on a Pi from boot-time. 5 seconds was the best I could do it in,
but you got no network and a read-only filesystem at that point.

Gordon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#12671

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-09 19:35 +0100
Message-ID<nlrg4m$7nc$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#12662
On 09/07/16 15:21, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <nlqt7t$4q0$1@news.albasani.net>,
> The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 09/07/16 14:05, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:51:52 +0100, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Time someone added a full function BASIC.
>>>>
>>> Well, its better than RPG I suppose, and a bit easier to read than FORTH.
>>>
>>>> As well as a teaching tool BASIC is useful for debugging algorithms.
>>>>
>>> I wouldn't ever teach somebody the program with such an unstructured
>>> language. Python is a better initial teaching tool and can probably do
>>> anything to BASIC can, and my preferred languages for sorting out an
>>> algorithm are C and Java.
>>>
>>> But of course ymmv.
>>>
>>>
>> BASIC is ok to start people coding and for very simple jobs.
>
> Part of the issue now is that you can't jsut turn a computer on, wait
> (oh, 0.1 to 0.5 seconds) for the beep then start typing BASIC into it...
>
> It has to be booted - from disk/sd/network... then you need to login,
> run up the GUI (if it doesn't auto start), then work out where to find
> a terminal emulator utility, or the BASIC interpreter icon in the menus...
>
> Then the bell goes and its off to the next clas...
>
> This is the same for all everything now - be it Python, Scratch, Java,
> etc.
>
> I think its rather sad, really.
>
> I did try an experiment way back to see just how fast I could get my BASIC
> running on a Pi from boot-time. 5 seconds was the best I could do it in,
> but you got no network and a read-only filesystem at that point.
>
> Gordon
>
This Linux system boots into full GUI in 8 seconds thanks to SSD...:)



-- 
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper 
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating 
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its 
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of 
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must 
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

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#12674

FromGordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net>
Date2016-07-09 18:55 +0000
Message-ID<nlrhal$j1d$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12671
In article <nlrg4m$7nc$1@news.albasani.net>,
The Natural Philosopher  <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 09/07/16 15:21, Gordon Henderson wrote:

>> I did try an experiment way back to see just how fast I could get my BASIC
>> running on a Pi from boot-time. 5 seconds was the best I could do it in,
>> but you got no network and a read-only filesystem at that point.
>>
>> Gordon
>>
>This Linux system boots into full GUI in 8 seconds thanks to SSD...:)

Your (desktop?) Linux system might do that today, but the Pi
didn't 4 years ago.

Gordon

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#12664

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-09 10:40 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31ead6f5d7d9272398a336@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12658
In article <nlqt7t$4q0$1@news.albasani.net>, tnp@invalid.invalid says...
> 
> On 09/07/16 14:05, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:51:52 +0100, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> >
> >> Time someone added a full function BASIC.
> >>
> > Well, its better than RPG I suppose, and a bit easier to read than FORTH.
> >
> >> As well as a teaching tool BASIC is useful for debugging algorithms.
> >>
> > I wouldn't ever teach somebody the program with such an unstructured
> > language. Python is a better initial teaching tool and can probably do
> > anything to BASIC can, and my preferred languages for sorting out an
> > algorithm are C and Java.
> >
> > But of course ymmv.
> >
> >
> BASIC is ok to start people coding and for very simple jobs.

Have you _looked_ at Visual BASIC?  The notion that BASIC can "only do 
simple jobs" is like the notion that "COBOL is always slow".  It is a 
nice homily that bears little resemblance to reality.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  In corporate 
America the only programming languages available to the average person 
who is not part of the IT department are Visual Basic for Applications, 
the Windows console command processor, Powershell, and Javascript 
running in a browser.  And people who need to get work done use those 
and do remarkable things with them.

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#12667

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-07-09 09:02 -0700
Message-ID<87poqmsssy.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#12664
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> Have you _looked_ at Visual BASIC?  The notion that BASIC can "only do 
> simple jobs" is like the notion that "COBOL is always slow".  It is a 
> nice homily that bears little resemblance to reality.
>
> If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  In corporate 
> America the only programming languages available to the average person 
> who is not part of the IT department are Visual Basic for Applications, 
> the Windows console command processor, Powershell, and Javascript 
> running in a browser.  And people who need to get work done use those 
> and do remarkable things with them.

1996 MDC at Moscone ... all the banners said "Internet" ... but the
constant refrain was "Preserve Your Investment" ... aka 80s/90s
business, safe, closed, local area networks ... with convention of
business apps with embedded visual basic that automatigically executed.
The network support was extended to network w/o any countermeasures to
the wild, anarchy of the internet (and all the automagic visual basic
paradigm would continue to exist).

Most of the 90s, the majority of internet related exploits was because
of various c language related programming bugs ... but by the start of
the century ... the automagic execution exploits had increased to match
the c language programming bugs

past posts about c language bugs/exploits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#buffer

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#12665

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-09 15:28 +0000
Message-ID<nlr570$a1j$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12658
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:12:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 09/07/16 14:05, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:51:52 +0100, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>
>>> Time someone added a full function BASIC.
>>>
>> Well, its better than RPG I suppose, and a bit easier to read than
>> FORTH.
>>
>>> As well as a teaching tool BASIC is useful for debugging algorithms.
>>>
>> I wouldn't ever teach somebody the program with such an unstructured
>> language. Python is a better initial teaching tool and can probably do
>> anything to BASIC can, and my preferred languages for sorting out an
>> algorithm are C and Java.
>>
>> But of course ymmv.
>>
>>
> BASIC is ok to start people coding and for very simple jobs.

My point is that teaching yourself BASIC is a pretty good way of teaching 
yourself how to write an unstructured mess while teaching yourself Python 
will at least give you the basics of structured programming and thus a 
helping hand toward writing something that you will be able to easily 
change in a year's time.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12659

FromGordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net>
Date2016-07-09 14:13 +0000
Message-ID<nlr0r6$qvd$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12656
In article <rJCdnTlao4CoeB3KnZ2dnUU78bXNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Andrew Swallow  <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Time someone added a full function BASIC.
>
>As well as a teaching tool BASIC is useful for debugging algorithms.
>
>Full function includes MAT instructions, BCD variables, disk handling, 
>print formatting and sophisticated string handling. Compiled BASIC can 
>CALL libraries written in other languages.

Well....

I wrote a fairly full function BASIC in recent years - it works very well
on the Pi too.

And oddly enough I've just been looking at adding the old MAT operations
into it too.

BCD? No, sorry, but it has all the usual disk stuff.  (does anyone
actually use BCD these days?) What sort of "sophisticated string
handling" are you after?

It's interpreted though. Calling programs works, but calling functions
isn't going to happen in it.

I did it for a bit of fun, initially, but people seem to be actually using
it for real world tasks on the Pi - which I find somewhat amusing/astounding
and frightening in roughly equal portions.

There are a lot of people who'll argue that BASIC is a bad language to
start with - they may be right, but lets not forget that Apple and Microsoft
both started with BASIC.. ;-)

As for learning - you only learn as good as your teacher teaches. I think
I had some very good teachers and was "into" a structured approach,
even in the late 70's with the old BASICs on the Apple II and (80's)
BBC Micro all those years back. We didn't have a choice with GOTO - it
had to be used, but with a bit of thought it wasn't that hard to write
a program that was readable that didn't end up like the usual pile of
spaghetti code.

Here's some examples:

Old school:

  10 REM TOSS A COIN
  20 c = RND (2)
  30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
  40 PRINT "Tails"
  50 PRINT "Try again "; 
  60 INPUT t$
  70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
  80 END 
  100 PRINT "Heads"
  110 GOTO 50

New stuff:

  // Flip a coin

  cycle
   coin = rnd (2) // gives 0 or 1

   if coin = 0 then
     print "Heads"
   else
     print "Tails"
   endif

   print "Try again ";
   input try$
  repeat until try$ <> "y"
  end

some folks might not like it, but I do - that's why I wrote it :-)

I use it myself for various stuff too - had to do some data analysis
recently with data supplied in CSV format - wrote it in my BASIC
and it worked a treat. Now thinking of writing a "split" type 
procedure into the language to make splitting a CSV type line
faster - but that might be cheating :-)

But then I've already written it - although it's not that fast: (when
you have 4 files of about a million lines each to process)

  // splitCsv:
  //    Split a single line and fill a global variable with the
  //    individual components

  def proc splitCsvLine (csvLine$)

  local t$, q$
  local i, length, csv

  for i = 0 to 5 cycle
    csv$ (i) = ""
  repeat

  i = 0

  length = len (csvLine$)
  if length = 0 then endproc

  csv = 0
  t$ = ""
  for i = 0 to length - 1 cycle
    q$ = mid$ (csvLine$, i, 1)

    if q$ = "," then // Process a comma
      csv$ (csv) = t$
      csv = csv + 1
      t$ = ""
    else
      t$ = t$ + q$
    endif

  repeat

  csv$ (csv) = t$ // Last one

  endproc

Hey ho...

If you have Raspbian on your Pi and it's relatively up to date then you have my
BASIC already installed - try typing:

  rtb

in a terminal, or find it via the GUI menu thingy. Latest manual can be found here:

  https://unicorn.drogon.net/rtb.pdf

If you don't have it, then: sudo apt-get install rtb

And FYI: rtb is written in C. None of this c++ or pithon nonsense here!

Enjoy,

Gordon
(Punk Rock Programmer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pnvmh )

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#12663

From"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid>
Date2016-07-09 15:25 +0100
Message-ID<nlr1gj$t2c$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12659
"Gordon Henderson" <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote in message 
news:nlr0r6$qvd$1@dont-email.me...
> In article <rJCdnTlao4CoeB3KnZ2dnUU78bXNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>
> I wrote a fairly full function BASIC in recent years - it works very well
> on the Pi too.


My first attempts in that area ...

-----ooooo-----

                                    C R A P
                                   *********

                       Create Rapidly Applications Programs

                     Copyright (c) 1989 by Gareth Alun Evans

CRAP version 1.00 is my gift to the Human race.
It is in the public domain.
It is given to ALL humans, regardless of sex, colour, race, creed,
religion, place of birth, nationality, place of residence
or any other characteristic.
It may be freely distributed in any country of the world.
Obviously, it may not be sold, because it already belongs to everybody!
(Charges may be levied for copying and distribution, however.)

Your help as a Beta Tester is appreciated.

No money is solicited, so don't send any!


                                    CRAP.DOC
                                    ********

    This file is the only documentation for the CRAP language. If it is not
enough for you, then regrettably, you are probably too inexperienced a
programmer for the language. (Ye Gods! Abuse, and hardly started!)

    To be a successful systems programmer, you need a devious mind! The
name of "CRAP" was therefore, obviously, conceived before the acronym,
"Create Rapidly Applications Programs".


                                  RELEASE NOTES
                                  *************

    The CRAP Version 1.0 release consists of the following files:

    * CRAP.DOC     This documentation file.

    * CRAP.COM     The interpreter root.

    * CRAP.CRP     The compiler/linker (used by CRAP.COM).

    * BASE.COM     The master for creating your .COM programs. This is
                   automatically invoked when DUMPing.

    * LIBRARY.CRP  The library procedures, for starting new programs.
                   Contains the String, I/O, Maths and File routines.
                   Each new program thus starts with "RESTORE LIBRARY".


                                   INTRODUCTION
                                   ************

    The CRAP language is based upon both "Forth" and "C". CRAP is reverse
Polish. It eliminates the stack confusion of Forth (SWAP, DUP, DROP,
OVER, etc.) by providing local variables.

    The 32k CRAP.CRP is a complete compiler and linker, with the unusual
capability of being able to recreate source files. (Separate source files
can be recreated if vocabularies are used.)

    New programs and commands can be entered either from the keyboard or
via batch files. <.SRC> If a source program is in NAME.SRC, then just
type "@ NAME". Batch files can include any commands, including calling
other batch files.

    Each program you develop can run stand-alone, or you can revise it
by reloading it into the CRAP compiler. Each program that has been DUMPed
has both  a NAME.COM and a NAME.CRP. (Both are needed to run stand alone).
CRAP itself is like this - the compiler/linker has been developed in CRAP.
It is an interesting exercise to load CRAP into itself and look at the
listing - CAUTION - over 50 pages of it, and no way of stopping it!

Thus:
A>crap
CRAP> restore crap
CRAP> list *
(or PLIST * to print, or FLIST fname * to create the source file fname.src )

    It is inadvisable to type in new programs from the keyboard. The
inevitable syntax errors are given meaningful error messages, but the whole
of the brick currently being entered is lost. So - use batch files, prepared
off-line by your editor.

    There is no limit on program size. Array size should not exceed
32000 (integers) (equivalent to 64000 bytes, not quite 65536). CRAP is free
format (spaces are necessary). Thus the above could be "restore crap list 
*".

    Warning - if you do not type in enough parameters, CRAP keeps prompting
    you ( spaces and returns are ignored):

CRAP> restore
CRAP>
CRAP>
CRAP>
CRAP> crap
CRAP> list
CRAP>
CRAP>
CRAP> *

    If you think you might have got into this situation, try typing the
Software Scream, "aargh".

    Program procedure bricks can be entered without any formatting. CRAP
will still list them out structured and indented neatly.


                              GETTING STARTED
                              ***************

    At the MS-DOS prompt, type "CRAP".
A>CRAP

    This brings up the CRAP compiler with its own prompt.
CRAP>

    Load in the binary dump of the libraries.
CRAP> restore library

    Define your initial vocabulary.
CRAP> : vocab vnew

    Enter this simple program (EXACTLY as shown).
    N.B. All spaces are needed in the second line.
CRAP> : proc firstprocedure
CRAP> " Hello World!\0A\0D " console call
CRAP> ;

    Link firstprocedure as the start of your program.
CRAP> link firstprocedure

    Create stand alone version.
CRAP> dump myprog

    Quit back to MS-DOS
CRAP> quit

    Now run and see what happens!
A>myprog

    Now, lets grow it a bit.
A>CRAP
CRAP> restore myprog

    Enter this second bit of program
CRAP> : vocab vnew
CRAP> : proc secondprocedure
CRAP> lint counter
CRAP> 10 I> counter
CRAP> loop
CRAP>   counter 0 = until
CRAP>   firstprocedure call
CRAP>   counter 1 - I> counter
CRAP> repeat
CRAP> ;

    Link secondprocedure as the start of your program.
CRAP> link secondprocedure

    Create stand alone version.
CRAP> dump myother

    Quit back to MS-DOS
CRAP> quit

    Now run and see what happens!
A>myother


                               VOCABULARIES
                               ************

    Each "bit" of CRAP is called a BRICK. Bricks are contained in
VOCABULARIES. Vocabularies are the means to recreate separate source files.
    Eg., If you look at CRAP itself, type "flist strings crapstrg". This
will create a batch/source file called "STRINGS.SRC", containing the
strings library, "crapstrg".
    (Plist crapstrg prints it, LIST crapstrg displays it)

    LIST *            lists everything.
    LIST vocabname    lists all bricks in the vocabulary.
    LIST brickname    lists a single brick.

    So, with CRAP itself, "LIST STRCPY" will list the string copy
procedure brick.

    To create a new vocabulary, type ": vocab newname". All subsequent
bricks will then be put into newname.

    Note: vocabularies themselves are in the master vocabulary, "GAIA",
named  after the ancient Greeks' Earth Mother. GAIA, being a vocabulary
itself, is also included in GAIA! This causes some confusion when
examining the DIRectory, or a LIST *.

    If you wish to revert to an earlier vocabulary, type its definition
again, ": vocab oldname". To remind you of the current vocabulary, type
"VOCAB".

   All bricks are defined using the colon ":" command:

   : vocab vname      create new vocabulary, or return to previous.

   : int iname        create global integer.

   : arr aname 50     create global array of 50 integers.

   : poi pname        create global pointer.

Remember - under the free format rule, the above could have been
entered as:
": vocab vname : int iname : arr aname 50 : poi pname"

    To see all the commands, type "HELP".


                                 COMMANDS
                                 ********

QUIT              Get back to DOS. Also optional on last line of .SRC file.

@ fname           Execute batch/source file <.SRC>. Do not type the .SRC.

INFO              Print the startup copyright notice.

HELP              Brief resume of all the commands.

: bname .. ..     Define new brick (more of this later)

DIR               Directory of all bricks in their vocabularies.

DUMP fname        Produce stand-alone fname.com and fname.crp. (The main
                  procedure will need to have been LINKed).

FLIST fname bname Create fname.src.

FORGET bname      Forget a brick. It won't be listed, and cannot be called.

LINK bname        Connect a procedure brick as the outer level of a program.
                  (It must not need any parameters).

LIST bname        List a vocabulary, a brick, or all (*).

NEW               Delete the current program, and revert to the minimum,
                  which is just the GAIA vocabulary.

PLIST bname       List to printer.

REM               A comment - all text to end of line is ignored.

RESTORE fname     Get back a binary DUMP <.CRP> for further development.

RUN               Run program from CRAP - needs to have been LINKed.

STACK             Debug aid - check before and after RUNning, should be 
same.

UNLINK            Disconnect, so a program cannot be run.

VOCAB             Remind one of the current vocabulary.

AARGH             The Software Scream - for tight spots with free format 
input.


    So, suppose that MYPROG is to have its main procedure replaced, possibly
because of bugs:

CRAP> restore MYPROG           Get old binary dump.
CRAP> forget MAIN              Lose old definition.
CRAP> @ main                   Compile new definition.
CRAP> .
CRAP> .
CRAP> .
CRAP> .
CRAP> .
CRAP> .
CRAP> link MAIN                Relink for execution.
CRAP> dump MYPROG              Save executable version.

Note: The old binary code of MYPROG will still exist as garbage. To get
rid of it, a complete FLIST is necessary, followed by a NEW, and the
appropriate "@"s to recompile. However, for incremental debugging, the
old versions can be carried along, at the expense of a (temporarily)
larger .CRP file.


                                 BRICKS
                                 ******

COMMENTS
--------
: comment This is a comment ;
: comment
Here is another comment
;

    The semicolon terminates the comment. All bricks have a unique name.
In the first comment, "This" is taken as the name. Therefore, all other
comments must not start with "this"!


INTEGERS   16 bit quantities
--------
: int i1                a variable.
: cint i2 12345         a constant, with its decimal value.


POINTERS  Special 32 bit quantities (8086 offset and segment)
--------
: poi p1                a variable.
: cpoi p2 i1            a constant pointer, pointing to i1.
: cpoi p3 strcpy        a constant pointer, pointing to the STRCPY 
procedure.

    For constant pointers, a brick name must be given to point to.


ARRAYS
------
    Arrays are arrays of integers. The zeroth element contains the size.
When arrays hold strings, a trailing zero byte is used to terminate, as
in the "C" language. (But because of the zeroth integer, strings start at
the second (0,1,2) byte).

: arr a1 5               a1 contains 6 elements, the zeroth containing 5.
Note: Size is given in decimal.

: carr a2 3 \1234 \0a \0d   A constant array.
Size is given in decimal, but each integer (all must be given) is in hex.
Note: If defining a constant array to hold text, the pairs of bytes have to 
be
given in reverse order (Most significant first). Thus "ABCD" comes out
as \4241 \4443. (Use strings in procedures - more obvious ).


VOCABULARIES
------------
: vocab v1       all vocabularies go into the GAIA vocabulary.
: endv endv1     end of vocabulary - optional and ignored, because the endv
is produced automatically when the vocabulary is defined.


                                      PROCEDURES
                                      **********

    For a better education, list out some of the vocabularies of CRAP 
itself.

    Procedures are generally reverse polish. It is up to you to keep track 
of
the program stack (So, in some ways, CRAP is as much crap as is Forth). 
Integers
take 2 bytes, pointers (addresses) take 4 bytes. All procedures return an
answer of one integer on the stack.

    Procedures can be passed integer and pointer parameters. These must be
defined first (pints and ppois).

    Thus, if a procedure is passed 2 integers, A & B, and 3 pointers, C, D & 
E,
: proc newname pint A pint B ppoi C ppoi D ppoi E.

    Procedure definitions are terminated by the semicolon ( or can be 
aborted
by the Software Scream, "Aargh").

    After the parameters come the local integers:
lint X lint Y lint Z
    Then the local pointers:
lpoi LP1 lpoi LP2
    Then the local arrays:
larr localarrayname 50
Then follows the body of the procedure.

Thus:
: proc pname
<Optional integer parameters - pint>
<Optional pointer parameters - ppoi>
<Optional local integers     - lint>
<Optional local pointers     - lpoi>
<Optional local arrays       - larr>
B O D Y   O F   P R O C E D U R E
;

COMMENT
------
/* This is a comment */
/* This is another */
/* You should have the idea by now */

CONSTANTS
---------
Decimals                   12345 -1 32
Hex                        \FFFF \0a
Ascii                      'A' 'B' ( But use 32 for space)
True (-1, \FFFF)           true
False (0)                  false
String                     " This is a string "
Note: Spaces are necessary to separate the "s from the string.
String with control codes  " Hello World!\0A\0D "

INTEGERS
--------
    To read onto stack, just give name, whether local, parameter or global.
To write out from stack, precede name by "I>".
    To copy A to B:     A I> B
    To increment A:     A 1 + I> A
    To get only the lower byte (Top byte becomes 0), precede by "BYTE":
                        BYTE A I> B
    To set i1 to 3, and then use as answer of procedure:
                        3 I> i1
                        i1 answer

POINTERS
-------
     As for integers, but use "P>".
     To copy P1 to P2:
                                   P1 P> P2
     To put address of i1 into P1:
                                   & i1 P> P1
     To put the value 1234 in the integer P1 points to:
                                   P1 1234 I=
     To put the address of i1 in the pointer that P1 points to:
                                   P1 & i1 P=
     To put an ascii character in the byte that P1 points to:
                                   P1 'A' B=
     To fetch the integer that P1 points to:
                                   P1 I[]
     To fetch the byte that P1 points to:
                                   P1 B[]
     To fetch the pointer that P1 points to:
                                   P1 P[]
     To increment a pointer by one byte:
                                   ++ P1
     To decrement a pointer by one byte:
                                   -- P1

ARRAYS
-----
    Arrays are used as are pointers. An array can only be accessed by
getting its address (Thus leaving a pointer on the stack):
                             & arrayname
    To point to the 5th byte of an array:
                             & arrayname 5 b.
    To point to the 5th integer of an array:
                             & arrayname 5 I.
    To point to the 5th pointer of an array:
                             & arrayname 5 P.

    Strings execute as though they are arrays, leaving a pointer to the
array size on the stack:
                             " Hi there! "

PROCEDURES
----------
    To call a procedure,  just give its name:
                             procedurename
    All procedures return an integer (defaults to zero) which must be used.
To pass to an integer:
                             procedurename I> i1
    For statement level procedure call, ignoring result:
                             procedurename call
    The library procedure, "Console", requires one pointer parameter:
                             " Hello World!\0d\0a " Console call
    Or:
                             " Hello World!\0d\0a " P> P1
                             P1 Console call
    Indirect procedure call via pointer:
                             & Console P> P1
                             " Hello World!\0d\0a " @ P1 call

CODE INSERTS
------------
    For religious maniacs only (....God help you!):
                              code 5 \21 \34 \ff \a9 \21
    ( Decimal count and hex bytes)

OPERATORS
---------
    integer integer +
    integer integer -
    integer integer *
    integer integer /
    integer integer %               modulo
    integer integer mask            logical and
    integer integer union           logical or
    integer integer xor             logical exclusive or
    integer integer shl             shift left
    integer integer shr             shift right
    integer integer >               greater than
    integer integer >=              greater or equal
    integer integer <               less than
    integer integer <=              less or equal
    integer integer =               equal
    integer integer <>              not equal
    integer integer and             relational and
    integer integer or              relational or
    integer neg                     negate
    integer invert                  logical not
    integer not                     relational not

STRUCTURES
----------
<expression yielding true> if ... end
<expression yielding true> if ... else ... end
Indefinite loop:
                           loop ... repeat
Terminating loop:
             loop ... <expression yielding true> until ... repeat
Case:
<Expression yielding integer> case
                              when 1
                              ...
                              when 2
                              ...
                              when 3
                              ...
                              when 10
                              ...
                              default       (if not matched by a when)
                              ...
                              esac


                                    LIBRARY CONTENTS
                                    ****************

    The library <LIBRARY.CRP> contains four vocabularies, Crapstrg for 
handling
zero terminated strings; Crapmath for integer decimal and hex, both in and 
out;
Crapio for console input and output; Crapfile for DOS handle based file
access.

CRAPSTRG
--------
    Crapstrg deals with strings, that is arrays which hold ascii bytes, and
which are terminated by a zero byte. In all the string routines, the 
parameter
pointers are incremented twice (++ ++) to skip past the zeroth integer
holding the array size.

        pointer STRLEN -  returns the length of the string.
pointer pointer STRCPY -  the first string is copied to the second.
        pointer STRCLR -  the string is cleared.
pointer pointer STRCMP -  returns a -ve integer if first string is shorter,
                          or alphabetically earlier; 0 if equal;
                          +ve if longer or later.
        integer TOUPPER - If integer is lower case ascii, converts to upper.
pointer pointer STRCMPL - As STRCMP, but ignore case of letters.
integer pointer STRAPP  - Add the character to the string.
pointer pointer STRCAT  - Catenate the first string to the second.
        pointer SPACE   - Add a space to end of string.
        pointer CRLF    - Add return-line feed to end of string.

CRAPMATH
--------
    Crapmath deals with hex and decimal numbers, inputting from and
outputting to strings.

pointer pointer INDEC   - The first pointer is a string containing ascii. 
The
                          second is a pointer to an integer to take the 
result.
                          Returns zero if conversion successful, -1 
otherwise.
                          The number can be preceded by '-' for negative.
pointer pointer INHEX   - As INDEC, but for hex number. The first ascii char
                          must be '\', as CRAP hex convention.
        integer HEXDIG  - Converts integer in range 0 - 15 to hex ascii 
digit.
integer pointer HEXBYTE - Integer is two hex digits. Appends to end of 
string.
integer pointer OUTHEX  - Integer is four hex digits. Appends to end of 
string.
integer pointer OUTDEC  - Integer is decimal number, may be negative. 
Converts
                          to ascii and appends to end of string.
        pointer NULLPTR - Returns true if pointer is zero, false otherwise.
pointer pointer CMPPTR  - Compares two pointers. Returns -ve, 0, or +ve 
result
                          depending upon relationship of first to second.

CRAPIO
------
    Crapio supports input and output to the console.

         pointer CONSOLE  - Prints string on console. NB. Max of 300 chars.
                 KBHIT    - Returns true if character waiting at keyboard.
                            Returns false if nothing has been typed.
                 GETCH    - Waits for key to be typed, and returns it.
                            Character is not echoed.
                 GETCHE   - As GETCH, but also echoes character.
         integer OUTCH    - Prints character on display.
         integer PRINTCH  - Prints character on printer.
         pointer READLN   - Gets whole line from keyboard. Takes maximum of
                            80 characters. Pointer must be to array of
                            41 or greater.
                 EHWHAT   - Trivial error message given.
                 STKCHK   - Stack Check. Prints value of stack pointer. Is
                            debugging aid. Stack should be the same from 
same
                            point in program.

CRAPFILE
--------
    Crapfile provides file handling according to MS-DOS file handle
conventions.

        pointer FOPENR   - String is file name. Opens for read. Returns file
                           handle (0 upwards), -1 if error.
        pointer FOPENW   - Opens for write, else same as FOPENR.
        pointer FCREATE  - Creates file if not existing, else as FOPENW.
        integer FCLOSE   - Integer is file handle to be closed.
integer pointer FGETC    - Integer is file handle, reads one byte. Returns
                           -1 if error, 0 if end of file, 1 if byte read ok.
                           Puts the byte wherever the pointer points to.
integer pointer FGETLN   - Integer is file handle, pointer is to buffer. 
Reads
                           whole line up to carriage return. Pointer points
                           to conventional array, into which is put string.
                           Returns -1 if error, 0 if end of file, else 1.
integer pointer FPUTC    - Integer is file handle, pointer points to a byte.
                           Writes that byte to file. Returns -1 if error,
                           0 if disk full, else 1.
integer integer pointer FGETBUF
                         - First integer is file handle, second is maximum
                           length, third is pointer to where to read the 
data.
                           THIS IS NOT AN ARRAY, the "zeroth" integer
                           is overwritten by data from disk. Returns -1 if
                           error, 0 if end of file, else number of bytes
                           actually read.
integer integer pointer FPUTBUF
                         - First integer is file handle, second is number of
                           bytes to write. Pointer is to block of data to
                           write. Returns -1 if error, 0 disk full, else 
number
                           of bytes written.
integer integer FSEEK    - First integer is file handle, second is desired
                           position in file (0 means first byte). Moves to 
that
                           place in the file. Returns -1 if error, 0 if
                           successfully moved.
        pointer BIGCONSOLE
                         - Pointer is to string of unlimited length. Prints
                           message on console. (Actually is FPUTBUF
                           to file handle 1)


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#12666

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-07-09 16:39 +0100
Message-ID<s5Sdnaaa4MbuhxzKnZ2dnUU78XvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#12659
On 09/07/2016 15:13, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <rJCdnTlao4CoeB3KnZ2dnUU78bXNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Andrew Swallow  <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Time someone added a full function BASIC.
>>
>> As well as a teaching tool BASIC is useful for debugging algorithms.
>>
>> Full function includes MAT instructions, BCD variables, disk handling,
>> print formatting and sophisticated string handling. Compiled BASIC can
>> CALL libraries written in other languages.
>
> Well....
>
> I wrote a fairly full function BASIC in recent years - it works very well
> on the Pi too.
>
> And oddly enough I've just been looking at adding the old MAT operations
> into it too.
>
> BCD? No, sorry, but it has all the usual disk stuff.  (does anyone
> actually use BCD these days?) What sort of "sophisticated string
> handling" are you after?
>


BCD is useful for accounting applications. When calculating money in 
trillions you need at least 15 significant figures, including the cents.

String handling - read, write, print, assign, arrays, convert to/from 
number formats, extract character, insert character, insert substring, 
append character, append second string, search string for second string, 
extract substring, compare strings including constants, strip trailing 
spaces. Open and close string filename. All the thing you do with 
strings when writing a compiler or text processing program.

> It's interpreted though. Calling programs works, but calling functions
> isn't going to happen in it.
>

BASIC can handle 20 page programs but ensuring you do not use the same 
variable name for two different things get harder.

> I did it for a bit of fun, initially, but people seem to be actually using
> it for real world tasks on the Pi - which I find somewhat amusing/astounding
> and frightening in roughly equal portions.
>
> There are a lot of people who'll argue that BASIC is a bad language to
> start with - they may be right, but lets not forget that Apple and Microsoft
> both started with BASIC.. ;-)
>

You do need structures like IF ... THEN ... ELSEIF ... ELSEIF ... ELSE 
... ENDIF
same for loops and end of file.

> As for learning - you only learn as good as your teacher teaches. I think
> I had some very good teachers and was "into" a structured approach,
> even in the late 70's with the old BASICs on the Apple II and (80's)
> BBC Micro all those years back. We didn't have a choice with GOTO - it
> had to be used, but with a bit of thought it wasn't that hard to write
> a program that was readable that didn't end up like the usual pile of
> spaghetti code.
>
> Here's some examples:
>
> Old school:
>
>   10 REM TOSS A COIN
>   20 c = RND (2)
>   30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
>   40 PRINT "Tails"
>   50 PRINT "Try again ";
>   60 INPUT t$
>   70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
>   80 END
>   100 PRINT "Heads"
>   110 GOTO 50
>
> New stuff:
>
>   // Flip a coin
>
>   cycle
>    coin = rnd (2) // gives 0 or 1
>
>    if coin = 0 then
>      print "Heads"
>    else
>      print "Tails"
>    endif
>
>    print "Try again ";
>    input try$
>   repeat until try$ <> "y"
>   end
>
> some folks might not like it, but I do - that's why I wrote it :-)
>
> I use it myself for various stuff too - had to do some data analysis
> recently with data supplied in CSV format - wrote it in my BASIC
> and it worked a treat. Now thinking of writing a "split" type
> procedure into the language to make splitting a CSV type line
> faster - but that might be cheating :-)
>
> But then I've already written it - although it's not that fast: (when
> you have 4 files of about a million lines each to process)
>
>   // splitCsv:
>   //    Split a single line and fill a global variable with the
>   //    individual components
>
>   def proc splitCsvLine (csvLine$)
>
>   local t$, q$
>   local i, length, csv
>
>   for i = 0 to 5 cycle
>     csv$ (i) = ""
>   repeat
>
>   i = 0
>
>   length = len (csvLine$)
>   if length = 0 then endproc
>
>   csv = 0
>   t$ = ""
>   for i = 0 to length - 1 cycle
>     q$ = mid$ (csvLine$, i, 1)
>
>     if q$ = "," then // Process a comma
>       csv$ (csv) = t$
>       csv = csv + 1
>       t$ = ""
>     else
>       t$ = t$ + q$
>     endif
>
>   repeat
>
>   csv$ (csv) = t$ // Last one
>
>   endproc
>
> Hey ho...
>
> If you have Raspbian on your Pi and it's relatively up to date then you have my
> BASIC already installed - try typing:
>
>   rtb
>
> in a terminal, or find it via the GUI menu thingy. Latest manual can be found here:
>
>   https://unicorn.drogon.net/rtb.pdf
>
> If you don't have it, then: sudo apt-get install rtb
>
> And FYI: rtb is written in C. None of this c++ or pithon nonsense here!
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Gordon
> (Punk Rock Programmer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pnvmh )
>
Good.

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#12668

FromRichard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk>
Date2016-07-09 16:56 +0100
Message-ID<559d095e7bbasura@invalid.addr.uk>
In reply to#12659
In article <nlr0r6$qvd$1@dont-email.me>,
   Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:

> Old school:

>   10 REM TOSS A COIN
>   20 c = RND (2)
>   30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
>   40 PRINT "Tails"
>   50 PRINT "Try again ";
>   60 INPUT t$
>   70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
>   80 END
>   100 PRINT "Heads"
>   110 GOTO 50

BASIC programs using GOTOs has been largely discredited and as you know
went out with the arc. One of the main reasons is that code
modifications often necessitate renumbering which is a nightmare when
many GOTOs are used. Procedural constructs (PROC-ENDPROC) also make
programming significantly easier to follow making line numbering
unnecessary.

Using a simple REPEAT-UNTIL loop the whole program can be done in 6
lines without a single GOTO and no line numbers.

REM TOSS A COIN
REPEAT
c = RND(2)
IF c = 1 THEN PRINT "Heads" ELSE PRINT "Tails"
INPUT "Try again";t$
UNTIL t$ = "n"

Richard

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#12669

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-09 16:30 +0000
Message-ID<nlr8r8$a1j$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12659
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:58 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:

Snip stuff about what looks like a nice, scripted programming language,
though somewhat removed from traditional BASICs!

I've just installed it on my old RPi B+ for later investigation by using: 

$ sudo apt-get install rtb

which did the trick and also added the libsdl-sound1.2 and wiringpi 
packages. I'm pleased to be handed the latter as I think I may need it 
soon. 

rtb basically 'just works' despite me running my RPi headless. The only 
problem is that at first it said:

Unable to initalise the sound system: Mixer not built with MP3 support

but adding the -s option fixed that.

Out of sheer curiosity, did you write the parser by hand or did you use 
lex+bison?

> I use it myself for various stuff too - had to do some data analysis
> recently with data supplied in CSV format - wrote it in my BASIC and it
> worked a treat. Now thinking of writing a "split" type procedure into
> the language to make splitting a CSV type line faster - but that might
> be cheating :-)
> 
> But then I've already written it - although it's not that fast: (when
> you have 4 files of about a million lines each to process)
>
To me that's a job for awk, a UNIX utility that's been around forever, 
and is commendably fast.

By default, awk reads all the lines in a file, splitting them into fields 
(whitespace is the default field delimiter, so the default to to convert 
the line into a list of words) and then uses regular expression patterns 
that apply 'actions' to the lines that match. It also has two special 
patterns, BEGIN and END that trigger actions at the start and end of a run

Suppose you have a CSV file  in which lines containing the word 'Amount' 
at the start of the line have an amount in the 5th field that you need to 
add up, this would do it:


BEGIN     { FS="," }
/Amount/  { total=total+$5 }
END       { printf("Total amount: %6.2f\n", total) }


where: 
- FS="," set the field separator to a comma
- /Amount/ is the pattern runs the associated action on that line
- actions are written after the triggering pattern and 
  enclosed in curly brackets
- $5 is the 5th field on the line 
- the print format uses 'f' to print a decimal amount
- the 'total' variable was initialised to zero by default

awk is a standard Linux utility, and so is included in every RPi.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12672

FromGordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net>
Date2016-07-09 18:43 +0000
Message-ID<nlrgk5$isp$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12669
In article <nlr8r8$a1j$2@dont-email.me>,
Martin Gregorie  <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:58 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>
>Snip stuff about what looks like a nice, scripted programming language,
>though somewhat removed from traditional BASICs!
>
>I've just installed it on my old RPi B+ for later investigation by using: 
>
>$ sudo apt-get install rtb
>
>which did the trick and also added the libsdl-sound1.2 and wiringpi 
>packages. I'm pleased to be handed the latter as I think I may need it 
>soon. 
>
>rtb basically 'just works' despite me running my RPi headless. The only 
>problem is that at first it said:
>
>Unable to initalise the sound system: Mixer not built with MP3 support
>
>but adding the -s option fixed that.

I'm curios about that.. wonder why... 

>Out of sheer curiosity, did you write the parser by hand or did you use 
>lex+bison?

By hand and I admit its not my finest bit of work, nor an area I have
expertiese in, but it works...

>> I use it myself for various stuff too - had to do some data analysis
>> recently with data supplied in CSV format - wrote it in my BASIC and it
>> worked a treat. Now thinking of writing a "split" type procedure into
>> the language to make splitting a CSV type line faster - but that might
>> be cheating :-)
>> 
>> But then I've already written it - although it's not that fast: (when
>> you have 4 files of about a million lines each to process)
>>
>To me that's a job for awk, a UNIX utility that's been around forever, 
>and is commendably fast.

Yes, I know and have used awk... However not for about 20 years now... The
problem here is that I have 4 or 5 files of what amounts to coordinates
and data pertaining to those coordinates. I have to scale the coordinates
to bigger squares and and count stuff inside the bigger range and output
a file with the larger squares, counts of the stuff inside them and some
other stats. It just seemed easier...

You might want to see: https://unicorn.drogon.net/snake.rtb to amuse
you for a few moments... :)

Cheers,

Gordon

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#12678

FromMartin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Date2016-07-09 21:52 +0000
Message-ID<nlrrmu$66o$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12672
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 18:43:17 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:

> In article <nlr8r8$a1j$2@dont-email.me>,
> Martin Gregorie  <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:
>>rtb basically 'just works' despite me running my RPi headless. The only
>>problem is that at first it said:
>>
>>Unable to initalise the sound system: Mixer not built with MP3 support
>>
>>but adding the -s option fixed that.
> 
> I'm curios about that.. wonder why...
>
Can't help, I'm afraid since I've never tried to extract sound from my 
RPi.
 
> Yes, I know and have used awk... However not for about 20 years now...
> The problem here is that I have 4 or 5 files of what amounts to
> coordinates and data pertaining to those coordinates. I have to scale
> the coordinates to bigger squares and and count stuff inside the bigger
> range and output a file with the larger squares, counts of the stuff
> inside them and some other stats. It just seemed easier...
>
Yes, that sounds like something I might also do in C or Java.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12670

Fromalister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com>
Date2016-07-09 18:25 +0000
Message-ID<ykbgz.572900$H_.155836@fx36.am4>
In reply to#12659
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:58 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> 
> If you don't have it, then: sudo apt-get install rtb
> 
> And FYI: rtb is written in C. None of this c++ or pithon nonsense here!
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Gordon (Punk Rock Programmer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pnvmh
> )

I got he following msg when I installed it

"Changing RTB to Setuid-Root for GPIO access"

I don't like this.

1) I may not be accessing GPOI, I dont' want applications having root 
access unless I specificity request it.

2) If I understand correctly root permissions is no-longer required to 
access GPIO anyway



-- 
The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands
what will sell.
		-- Confucius

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#12673

FromGordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net>
Date2016-07-09 18:53 +0000
Message-ID<nlrh7q$j1d$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#12670
In article <ykbgz.572900$H_.155836@fx36.am4>,
alister  <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:58 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> If you don't have it, then: sudo apt-get install rtb
>> 
>> And FYI: rtb is written in C. None of this c++ or pithon nonsense here!
>> 
>> Enjoy,
>> 
>> Gordon (Punk Rock Programmer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pnvmh
>> )
>
>I got he following msg when I installed it
>
>"Changing RTB to Setuid-Root for GPIO access"
>
>I don't like this.
>
>1) I may not be accessing GPOI, I dont' want applications having root 
>access unless I specificity request it.
>
>2) If I understand correctly root permissions is no-longer required to 
>access GPIO anyway

That package of RTB was made before the newer /dev/gpiomem interface was
added into the kernel and you're right - it's not the best thing to do,
however RTB drops root privs. immediately after initialising wiringPi
which is essentially the first thing it does in main() after getopt.

It needs to do the getopt thing to work out what way to initialise
wiringPi - BCM pins, board pins or wiringPi pins.

After that it's running as the user that called it, so things like file
access, creation, etc. work as the calling user.

Check this by running it, then typing in:

  x = openOut ("/tmp/testfile1")

then (in another terminal)

  ls -l /tmp/testfile

and checking the ownership of the file created.

I'm doing some work on it so will bear that in-mind for the next
time I make a package.

Alternatively, if you remove the set uid bit,

  sudo chmod 755 /usr/bin/rtb

it will still work, just not initialise wiringPi for GPIO access.

One thing you can't do with /dev/gpiomem is change the internal
pull up/down resistors, so if you need that, you need root.

Gordon
(Author of wiringPi)

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#12677

Fromalister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com>
Date2016-07-09 20:55 +0000
Message-ID<dxdgz.136466$CF.75576@fx41.am4>
In reply to#12673
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 18:53:46 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:

> In article <ykbgz.572900$H_.155836@fx36.am4>,
> alister  <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:13:58 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you don't have it, then: sudo apt-get install rtb
>>> 
>>> And FYI: rtb is written in C. None of this c++ or pithon nonsense
>>> here!
>>> 
>>> Enjoy,
>>> 
>>> Gordon (Punk Rock Programmer -
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pnvmh )
>>
>>I got he following msg when I installed it
>>
>>"Changing RTB to Setuid-Root for GPIO access"
>>
>>I don't like this.
>>
>>1) I may not be accessing GPOI, I dont' want applications having root
>>access unless I specificity request it.
>>
>>2) If I understand correctly root permissions is no-longer required to
>>access GPIO anyway
> 
> That package of RTB was made before the newer /dev/gpiomem interface was
> added into the kernel and you're right - it's not the best thing to do,

I Expected that to be the case.

> however RTB drops root privs. immediately after initialising wiringPi
> which is essentially the first thing it does in main() after getopt.

& that seems to reduce the issue considerably (I still have minor 
concerns but those are founded by a healthy dose of paranoia rather than 
any reasoned argument).
> 
> I'm doing some work on it so will bear that in-mind for the next time I
> make a package.

Indeed my comments were meant to be taken constructively.

> 
> Alternatively, if you remove the set uid bit,
> 
>   sudo chmod 755 /usr/bin/rtb
> 
> it will still work, just not initialise wiringPi for GPIO access.
> 
> One thing you can't do with /dev/gpiomem is change the internal pull
> up/down resistors, so if you need that, you need root.
> 
> Gordon (Author of wiringPi)





-- 
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence.
		-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 
5

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#12680

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-10 12:06 +0000
Message-ID<PM00053746DFDFC3A1@aca40e54.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#12659
Gordon Henderson wrote:
<snip>

>
> Here's some examples:
>
> Old school:
>
>   10 REM TOSS A COIN
>   20 c = RND (2)
>   30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
>   40 PRINT "Tails"
>   50 PRINT "Try again ";
>   60 INPUT t$
>   70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
>   80 END
>   100 PRINT "Heads"
>   110 GOTO 50
>
> New stuff:
>
>   // Flip a coin
>
>   cycle
>    coin = rnd (2) // gives 0 or 1
>
>    if coin = 0 then
>      print "Heads"
>    else
>      print "Tails"
>    endif
>
>    print "Try again ";
>    input try$
>   repeat until try$ <> "y"
>   end
>
> some folks might not like it, but I do - that's why I wrote it :-)

<snip>

Interestingly, I can read the first example quickly; not the second.
I spend more time matching lines in the second example.  I guess
readability depends on experience.

/BAH

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#12681

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-07-10 14:05 +0100
Message-ID<Ib6dndJMcIJ92h_KnZ2dnUU78e_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#12680
On 10/07/2016 13:06, jmfbahciv wrote:
> Gordon Henderson wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>
>> Here's some examples:
>>
>> Old school:
>>
>>   10 REM TOSS A COIN
>>   20 c = RND (2)
>>   30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
>>   40 PRINT "Tails"
>>   50 PRINT "Try again ";
>>   60 INPUT t$
>>   70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
>>   80 END
>>   100 PRINT "Heads"
>>   110 GOTO 50
>>
>> New stuff:
>>
>>   // Flip a coin
>>
>>   cycle
>>    coin = rnd (2) // gives 0 or 1
>>
>>    if coin = 0 then
>>      print "Heads"
>>    else
>>      print "Tails"
>>    endif
>>
>>    print "Try again ";
>>    input try$
>>   repeat until try$ <> "y"
>>   end
>>
>> some folks might not like it, but I do - that's why I wrote it :-)
>
> <snip>
>
> Interestingly, I can read the first example quickly; not the second.
> I spend more time matching lines in the second example.  I guess
> readability depends on experience.
>
> /BAH
>

You have just found the reason that standards manuals limit structured 
programs to having subroutines no more than 60 lines (=1 page) long 
whereas GOTO programs can be 20 pages long.

My 'END' statements had a comment saying what it was attached to.

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#12685

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-11 11:32 +0000
Message-ID<PM0005375A90C376A2@aca40b50.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#12681
Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 10/07/2016 13:06, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> Here's some examples:
>>>
>>> Old school:
>>>
>>>   10 REM TOSS A COIN
>>>   20 c = RND (2)
>>>   30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
>>>   40 PRINT "Tails"
>>>   50 PRINT "Try again ";
>>>   60 INPUT t$
>>>   70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
>>>   80 END
>>>   100 PRINT "Heads"
>>>   110 GOTO 50
>>>
>>> New stuff:
>>>
>>>   // Flip a coin
>>>
>>>   cycle
>>>    coin = rnd (2) // gives 0 or 1
>>>
>>>    if coin = 0 then
>>>      print "Heads"
>>>    else
>>>      print "Tails"
>>>    endif
>>>
>>>    print "Try again ";
>>>    input try$
>>>   repeat until try$ <> "y"
>>>   end
>>>
>>> some folks might not like it, but I do - that's why I wrote it :-)
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Interestingly, I can read the first example quickly; not the second.
>> I spend more time matching lines in the second example.  I guess
>> readability depends on experience.
>>
>> /BAH
>>
>
> You have just found the reason that standards manuals limit structured
> programs to having subroutines no more than 60 lines (=1 page) long
> whereas GOTO programs can be 20 pages long.

That limit would be a problem in my work world :-)  I never had
problems reading code which spanned more than one page.  My
programming style would use dispatch tables when entering a
module for the first time.
>
> My 'END' statements had a comment saying what it was attached to.

that's nice if it's kept up to date.  In my area, it would be out of
date with the third programmer.  We would put a stand-alone comment
at the end of a logical piece of code to indicate the last page
of the routine.

After each monitor edit, one of the procedures was to run a TECO
macro over the sources to match angle brackets.

/BAH

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#12686

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
Message-ID<146725407.489943112.212855.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#12685
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 10/07/2016 13:06, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Here's some examples:
>>>> 
>>>> Old school:
>>>> 
>>>> 10 REM TOSS A COIN
>>>> 20 c = RND (2)
>>>> 30 IF c = 0 THEN GOTO 100
>>>> 40 PRINT "Tails"
>>>> 50 PRINT "Try again ";
>>>> 60 INPUT t$
>>>> 70 IF t$ = "y" THEN GOTO 20
>>>> 80 END
>>>> 100 PRINT "Heads"
>>>> 110 GOTO 50
>>>> 
>>>> New stuff:
>>>> 
>>>> // Flip a coin
>>>> 
>>>> cycle
>>>> coin = rnd (2) // gives 0 or 1
>>>> 
>>>> if coin = 0 then
>>>> print "Heads"
>>>> else
>>>> print "Tails"
>>>> endif
>>>> 
>>>> print "Try again ";
>>>> input try$
>>>> repeat until try$ <> "y"
>>>> end
>>>> 
>>>> some folks might not like it, but I do - that's why I wrote it :-)
>>> 
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>> Interestingly, I can read the first example quickly; not the second.
>>> I spend more time matching lines in the second example.  I guess
>>> readability depends on experience.
>>> 
>>> /BAH
>>> 
>> 
>> You have just found the reason that standards manuals limit structured
>> programs to having subroutines no more than 60 lines (=1 page) long
>> whereas GOTO programs can be 20 pages long.
> 
> That limit would be a problem in my work world :-)  I never had
> problems reading code which spanned more than one page.  My
> programming style would use dispatch tables when entering a
> module for the first time.
>> 
>> My 'END' statements had a comment saying what it was attached to.

I do this too.  Often it's a pain in the neck, but occasionally it's
useful.  IBM PL/I has a nice "nest" compiler option that prints the
containing block and group number for each statement, so you can easily
visualize the structure.

> 
> that's nice if it's kept up to date.  In my area, it would be out of
> date with the third programmer.  We would put a stand-alone comment
> at the end of a logical piece of code to indicate the last page
> of the routine.
> 
> After each monitor edit, one of the procedures was to run a TECO
> macro over the sources to match angle brackets.
> 
> /BAH
> 



-- 
Pete

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