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Question from the too good to throw out pile

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  Question from the too good to throw out pile "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-02-16 10:49 +0000
    Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-16 09:23 -0500
    Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile Bruce Esquibel <bje@ripco.com> - 2014-02-16 14:47 +0000
      Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-02-16 17:14 +0000
        Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile billy@MIX.COM - 2014-02-16 18:05 +0000
        Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-02-16 20:21 +0100
    Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2014-02-16 11:08 -0800
      Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-16 14:29 -0500
        Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-16 20:54 +0000
        Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2014-02-16 23:50 -0800
    Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-02-16 20:10 +0100
      Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-02-16 20:39 +0000
        Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-16 16:01 -0500
          Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-02-17 04:39 +0000
            Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-02-17 10:13 +0100
              Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-02-17 10:04 +0000
    Re: Question from the too good to throw out pile "M. John Matlaw" <nouser@invalid.com> - 2014-02-17 10:25 -0500

#56584 — Question from the too good to throw out pile

Someone is offering a G4 450mHz dual processor system for sale on a local
list. I expect by the time he is done, he will be willing to give it to
a good (or any home) instead of putting it in the trash/recycling.

It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were 
not bootable, it may have more appeal. 

Anyone done it? 

Do know if any of the cheap eBay controllers work in it? Are supported by
OSX. 

RAID, etc not needed, just enough to put in an internal drive bigger than
120 megabytes.

TIA,

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#56593

On 2014.02.16, 05:49 , Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Someone is offering a G4 450mHz dual processor system for sale on a local
> list. I expect by the time he is done, he will be willing to give it to
> a good (or any home) instead of putting it in the trash/recycling.
>
> It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
> However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were
> not bootable, it may have more appeal.
>
> Anyone done it?
>
> Do know if any of the cheap eBay controllers work in it? Are supported by
> OSX.
>
> RAID, etc not needed, just enough to put in an internal drive bigger than
> 120 megabytes.

I made the mistake of buying a similar G4 with 10 GB PATA, keyboard and 
screen for $80 a few years ago.  I got it up and running and then ... 
well... it's sitting in my crawl space and I guess I should do something 
about it during spring cleaning... I've announced it on Craigslist a 
couple times ... no replies at all.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

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#56594

Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

> It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
> However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were 
> not bootable, it may have more appeal. 


Google "lipstick on a pig".

-bruce
bje@ripco.com

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#56601

Bruce Esquibel wrote:
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
>> However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were 
>> not bootable, it may have more appeal. 
>
>
> Google "lipstick on a pig".

That's kind of what I figured. I recently bought a G4 mini, and after
applying lipstick (new PRAM battery, upgraded RAM, and a VGA adaptor
becuase it is not compatible with my LED monitor in DVI mode). I installed
Tiger on it to use it as a repository for all my "classic" software I archive.

Problem is it only has an 80 gig drive, and buying a proper IDE drive 
of bigger size is far more money than the mini, if it would work at all.

So I was thinking of taking this computer, with it's big case and hefty
powersupply and sticking a terabyte SATA drive (I have several elsewhere
waiting to be upgraded). 

But it is not worth it unless one those $10 eBay SATA controllers work.

Geoff.


-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#56604

Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> writes:

> But it is not worth it unless one those $10 eBay SATA controllers work.

If you can find one made by Sonnet, there's a good chance it will work.

Then, just in case you stumble upon a big ATA disk, there is also this
work around for the 24-bit LBA (128GB disk size) limit -

http://www.intechusa.com/ATA6.html

But, it costs US$25...

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number

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#56609

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Problem is it only has an 80 gig drive, and buying a proper IDE drive
> of bigger size is far more money than the mini, if it would work at all.

A WD Scorpio 250gb or 320gb IDE disk will automatically fit into the old 
MacMini. - It will even work in an old PowerBook G3 Pismo. - I put a 
250gb into my old Pismo 500mhz and now a 320gb in my 17" PowerBook G4. 
The old Mini has nearly the same motherborad as the PowerBook G4 15" and 
17" 1,5ghz and 1,67ghz models.

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#56607

In article <slrnlg15rp.ftl.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>,
 "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

> Someone is offering a G4 450mHz dual processor system for sale on a local
> list. I expect by the time he is done, he will be willing to give it to
> a good (or any home) instead of putting it in the trash/recycling.
> 
> It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
> However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were 
> not bootable, it may have more appeal. 
> 
> Anyone done it? 
> 
> Do know if any of the cheap eBay controllers work in it? Are supported by
> OSX. 
> 
> RAID, etc not needed, just enough to put in an internal drive bigger than
> 120 megabytes.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Geoff.

The G4 and G5 computers are from a time when Apple was having trouble 
keeping pace with technology, especially with the various investors in 
the PowerPC chip disagreeing on what its future should be.  Those hot 
chipsets ate power, cracked from thermal stress, and were often 
surrounded by counterfeit electrolytic capacitors that were flooding the 
market at that time.  The lineup didn't age well.

I'd only buy it for hobby/hacking/nostalgia uses.  It won't run modern 
software, any servers that applications would contact are long gone, and 
repairs will be difficult.  A cellphone with a bluetooth keyboard would 
probably be more functional as an everyday computer.

Repurposing it as an always-on FreeBSD or Linux server might run up your 
electric bill, though not as badly as a G5.  You could probably buy an 
efficient mini-PC and come out ahead. (0.3Kw * $0.12/Kwh * 24h * 365d = 
$315/yr)

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#56610

On 2014.02.16, 14:08 , Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

> Repurposing it as an always-on FreeBSD or Linux server might run up your
> electric bill, though not as badly as a G5.  You could probably buy an
> efficient mini-PC and come out ahead. (0.3Kw * $0.12/Kwh * 24h * 365d =
> $315/yr)

Once rolling and waiting for commands, that server wouldn't suck that 
much juice.  My old iMac (2007), measured results (Kill-a-Watt):

iMac running and idle:
	                 138 W   (CPU usage 2% per core or less).
            Display dim:  105
            Display off:   56

Handbrake, 100% CPU:     174 W   (CPU usage >95% per core or more).
            Display off:   96

And of course in the heating season it's effectively "no charge" or at 
least offsets other heating (gas/oil/heatpump).

$0.12/kWh?  Sheesh!

Here we pay:
	$0.0541 / kWh - first 30 kWh/day ~ 60 day average.
         $0.0778 / kWh - the rest (eg: this hits heating).

-- 
   Those who have reduced our privacy, whether they are state
   or commercial actors, prefer that we do not reduce theirs.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

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#56612

Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> $0.12/kWh?  Sheesh!
> 
> Here we pay:
>         $0.0541 / kWh - first 30 kWh/day ~ 60 day average.
>          $0.0778 / kWh - the rest (eg: this hits heating).

Our electricity is indeed cheap, but not much else is. Especially not 
housing.

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

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#56619

In article <V5qdnTRP66YtjJzOnZ2dnUVZ8oadnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2014.02.16, 14:08 , Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> 
> > Repurposing it as an always-on FreeBSD or Linux server might run up your
> > electric bill, though not as badly as a G5.  You could probably buy an
> > efficient mini-PC and come out ahead. (0.3Kw * $0.12/Kwh * 24h * 365d =
> > $315/yr)
> 
> Once rolling and waiting for commands, that server wouldn't suck that 
> much juice.  My old iMac (2007), measured results (Kill-a-Watt):
> 
> iMac running and idle:
> 	                 138 W   (CPU usage 2% per core or less).
>             Display dim:  105
>             Display off:   56
> 
> Handbrake, 100% CPU:     174 W   (CPU usage >95% per core or more).
>             Display off:   96
> 
> And of course in the heating season it's effectively "no charge" or at 
> least offsets other heating (gas/oil/heatpump).
> 
> $0.12/kWh?  Sheesh!
> 
> Here we pay:
> 	$0.0541 / kWh - first 30 kWh/day ~ 60 day average.
>          $0.0778 / kWh - the rest (eg: this hits heating).

Ah, I found the specs:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23546

The G4 towers aren't nearly as bad as the G5 towers were.  80W to 150W 
of idle power and up to 400W under load.  By comparison, modern mini-PCs 
idle at 10W to 15W and draw 60W to 120W under load.


California PG&E Tier 2 is $0.15 per Kwh.  Tier 1 is slightly cheaper but 
you won't be in it running an older computer all day.

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#56608

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Someone is offering a G4 450mHz dual processor system for sale on a local
> list. I expect by the time he is done, he will be willing to give it to
> a good (or any home) instead of putting it in the trash/recycling.
>
> It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
> However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were
> not bootable, it may have more appeal.
>
> Anyone done it?
>
> Do know if any of the cheap eBay controllers work in it? Are supported by
> OSX.
>
> RAID, etc not needed, just enough to put in an internal drive bigger than
> 120 megabytes.

I've had a similar machine - though upgraded to a dual 1,4ghz. [btw. 
still working just fine.:-)]

Since it has onboard Firewire 400 it can run OS X 10.4.11, and the dual 
450mhz could be very fine for use as a file server, music server etc..

The Apple branded SATA-i/II PCI cards from Sonnet, NewerTech and ACard 
will all work in the old G4 - also as bootable.

- Sonnet Crescendo, single channel, PCI BUS 0 ID 0+1
   Up to 2x 1,0tb SATA-I/SATA-150. Master + Slave
- Sonnet Crescendo, dual channel, PCI BUS 0+1, ID 0+1
   Up to 4x 1,0tb SATA-I/SATA-150. 2x Master + 2x Slave
- NewerTech SATA PCI Single Controller, PCI BUS 0, ID 0
   Up to 1,0tb SATA-I/SATA-150. Master only
- ACard AHARD Single Channel SATA PCI Controller, PCI BUS 0+1
   Up to 2x 1,0tb SATA-I/II (SATA-150/300). Master + Slave
- ACard AHARD Dual Channel SATA PCI Controller, PCI BUS 0+1, 2x ID 0+1
   Up to at least 1,0tb SATA-I/II (SATA-150/300) per ID. 2x Master + 2x 
Slave.

All these card can be munted in either of the PCI sockets.

All controllers support 5,25" CD/DVD drives either master or slave. 
Needs Master config, if wanted to be bootable.

Note. The card must be Macintosh compatible, so the very cheap cards 
normally won't work in a Mac, - firmware on the card won't match the 
needs on the G4.

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#56611

ErikRS wrote:
>
> Needs Master config, if wanted to be bootable.
>
> Note. The card must be Macintosh compatible, so the very cheap cards 
> normally won't work in a Mac, - firmware on the card won't match the 
> needs on the G4.

I figured since there is a working IDE drive in it, it might as well stay
as the boot volume. That allows me to work with a controller that does not
any firmware on it at all, as long as MacOs recognizes it.

Now to see if the machine sells or not........

Geoff.


-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#56613

In article <slrnlg28ci.et.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

> I figured since there is a working IDE drive in it, it might as well stay
> as the boot volume. That allows me to work with a controller that does not
> any firmware on it at all, as long as MacOs recognizes it.

external firewire drives do not have the lba48 issue (unless it's a
really old enclosure with an lba48 bridge).

in other words, plug in a recent firewire drive.

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#56618

nospam wrote:
>
> in other words, plug in a recent firewire drive.

Can you appletalk share (under tiger) an external drive?

TIA,

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#56620

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>> in other words, plug in a recent firewire drive.
>
> Can you appletalk share (under tiger) an external drive?

Yes, but it isn't necessary to use AppleTalk. Just connect the G4 and 
mount the internal and/or external disk connected to the G4 and they'll 
appear on the 'host' desktop - i.e. the desktop on the computer where 
you've mounted it.

AppleTalk only needs to be enabled along with 'sharing' if the old G4 
runs a booted OS 8.6 to 9.2.2.

Both my MDD and PowerBook G4 runs 10.4.11 for specific reasons, and all 
external and/or internal disks (also USB disks) will occour on my MacPro 
desktop, when I mount them from the MacPro - and - visa versa, - the 
MacPro disks are also visible on the MDD/PB, if I mount the MacPro disks 
from either of these macfhines. Tiger 10.4.x sharing works with the AFP 
sharing.

Lately I've also had both a G4 dual 533mhz and a G4 1,4ghz single 
upgraded Sawtooh mounted to my MacPro to move some installer packages 
onto these two from my software HD - a FW800 disk connected to the MacPro.

Cheers, Eri kRichard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#56621

ErikRS wrote:
>
> Yes, but it isn't necessary to use AppleTalk. Just connect the G4 and 
> mount the internal and/or external disk connected to the G4 and they'll 
> appear on the 'host' desktop - i.e. the desktop on the computer where 
> you've mounted it.
>
> AppleTalk only needs to be enabled along with 'sharing' if the old G4 
> runs a booted OS 8.6 to 9.2.2.

The appletalk is so that a Mac running an older version of MacOS can be used
to write floppy disk from the images kept on the other computer.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#56622

On 2/16/14, 5:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Someone is offering a G4 450mHz dual processor system for sale on a local
> list. I expect by the time he is done, he will be willing to give it to
> a good (or any home) instead of putting it in the trash/recycling.
>
> It seems to good to throw out, but not good enough for me to take.
> However if I were able to put a SATA controller in it, even if it were
> not bootable, it may have more appeal.
>
> Anyone done it?
>
> Do know if any of the cheap eBay controllers work in it? Are supported by
> OSX.
>
> RAID, etc not needed, just enough to put in an internal drive bigger than
> 120 megabytes.
>
> TIA,
>
> Geoff.
>
Looks like you've already gotten all you need by way of answers, but 
another place to try is comp.sys.mac.vintage.

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