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Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs

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  Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-24 04:38 +0000
    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-23 21:45 -0700
      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-06-24 17:10 +1200
        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-06-24 02:05 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-24 01:47 -0700
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-24 13:29 +0000
        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-24 09:42 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 09:45 -0400
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-24 13:10 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 14:42 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-06-24 10:02 -0400
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 10:24 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-24 14:38 +0000
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-24 14:40 +0000
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-24 16:48 -0700
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-25 01:53 +0000
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-25 11:34 -0700
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-24 16:47 -0700
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-06-24 20:17 -0400
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-25 02:03 +0000
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-06-24 23:34 -0500
                      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-06-25 00:46 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-25 05:18 +0000
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-06-25 01:49 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-06-25 17:47 +1200
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-25 02:50 -0400
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-25 08:24 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-25 06:48 -0400
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2020-06-25 07:34 -0500
                            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-25 08:39 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-25 11:34 -0700
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-25 14:37 -0400
                            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-25 11:43 -0700
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-06-26 08:40 +1200
                            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-25 13:42 -0700
                      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-25 04:46 +0000
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-25 08:19 -0400
                      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-25 12:33 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-26 10:53 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-06-26 23:39 +0000
                      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-27 00:39 +0000
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-26 18:01 -0700
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-24 14:29 +0000
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-24 13:41 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-06-24 13:55 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 14:42 -0400
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-24 17:15 -0400
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 17:56 -0400
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-25 02:31 -0400
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-06-25 13:06 +1200
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-25 02:24 +0000
        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2020-07-03 15:46 -0700
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-07-03 15:53 -0700
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-07-04 15:14 +1200
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2020-07-04 00:49 -0700
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-07-04 01:15 -0700
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-04 08:09 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-03 20:54 -0400
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-07-04 16:30 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-04 17:12 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2020-07-05 09:47 -0700
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2020-07-05 19:23 +0100
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-05 15:50 -0400
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2020-07-05 21:00 +0100
                      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-05 16:11 -0400
                        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2020-07-05 21:51 +0100
                          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-05 16:57 -0400
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-05 15:50 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-07-04 15:11 +1200
      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-24 15:55 -0400
        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 16:04 -0400
        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-24 16:51 -0700
    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-24 15:04 -0400
      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 15:12 -0400
        Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-24 18:07 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-24 18:27 -0400
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-25 02:41 -0400
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-25 06:48 -0400
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-06-25 10:53 -0400
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-06-25 11:11 -0400
          Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-06-25 18:21 +0000
            Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-25 11:32 -0700
              Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-06-25 19:14 +0000
                Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-25 12:56 -0700
                  Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-06-26 12:22 +0000
                    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-26 12:21 -0700
    Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Arlen Holder <arlenholder@newmachine.com> - 2020-06-27 00:33 +0000
      Re: Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-06-26 18:02 -0700

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#132884 — Boot Camp freeware to dual boot Windows & MacOS is dead on all new ARM-core Macs

Dateline today...

   "*Boot Camp Is Dead On [all new ARM-based Macs]*"

o *Boot Camp Is Dead on New Macs and 8 Other Things Apple Didn't Say at WWDC*
<https://gizmodo.com/boot-camp-is-dead-on-new-macs-and-8-other-things-apple-1844126342>

 "Apple is making a family of custom ARM-based processors for Macs, 
  which is a huge shift that brings with it rippling effects. 

  One change that some might not be too pleased about is that Boot Camp,
  the free utility that allows you to dual-boot Windows and macOS, 
  is going away on the new Macs powered by [licensed ARM technology].

  Intel-based Macs running Big Sur will still support Boot Camp, 
  and Apple's chips will still allow you to run virtualization technology
  like Parallels to use Windows and macOS, but Parallels is not free and 
  runs on top of the OS while Boot Camp costs nothing and allows you to
  dual, and even triple, boot on a Mac. RIP."

See also:
o Apple Plans to Announce Move to Its Own Mac Chips at WWDC [ARM, TSMC, 5nm, A14]
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/VFO_VL0Fwvw>
-- 
Keeping abreast of the news affecting users on this newsgroup.

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#132885

On 2020-06-23 9:38 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> Dateline today...
> 
>     "*Boot Camp Is Dead On [all new ARM-based Macs]*"
> 
> o *Boot Camp Is Dead on New Macs and 8 Other Things Apple Didn't Say at WWDC*
> <https://gizmodo.com/boot-camp-is-dead-on-new-macs-and-8-other-things-apple-1844126342>
> 
>   "Apple is making a family of custom ARM-based processors for Macs,
>    which is a huge shift that brings with it rippling effects.
> 
>    One change that some might not be too pleased about is that Boot Camp,
>    the free utility that allows you to dual-boot Windows and macOS,
>    is going away on the new Macs powered by [licensed ARM technology].
> 
>    Intel-based Macs running Big Sur will still support Boot Camp,
>    and Apple's chips will still allow you to run virtualization technology
>    like Parallels to use Windows and macOS, but Parallels is not free and
>    runs on top of the OS while Boot Camp costs nothing and allows you to
>    dual, and even triple, boot on a Mac. RIP."
> 
> See also:
> o Apple Plans to Announce Move to Its Own Mac Chips at WWDC [ARM, TSMC, 5nm, A14]
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/VFO_VL0Fwvw>
> 

I've used both, and except in some very extreme edge cases, using a VM 
is far, far better than using Boot Camp.

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#132886

On 2020-06-24 04:45:09 +0000, Alan Baker said:
> On 2020-06-23 9:38 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
>> Dateline today...
>> 
>> "*Boot Camp Is Dead On [all new ARM-based Macs]*"
>> 
<snip the usual Arlen troll anti-Apple biased garbage>
> 
> I've used both, and except in some very extreme edge cases, using a VM 
> is far, far better than using Boot Camp.

With an ARM Mac, it's going to have to be emulation rather than 
virtualisation. Code will have to be translated on the run, which means 
it will be slower. Whether that noticeable to the user will depend on 
what they're doing and how much more powerful the ARM Macs are.

There is a version of Windoze that runs on ARM already, which could be 
a better choice since it could be virtualised ... but most reports say 
the ARM Windoze isn't as good as x86 Windoze.

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#132887

Your Name wrote:
> On 2020-06-24 04:45:09 +0000, Alan Baker said:
>> On 2020-06-23 9:38 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> Dateline today...
>>>
>>> "*Boot Camp Is Dead On [all new ARM-based Macs]*"
>>>
> <snip the usual Arlen troll anti-Apple biased garbage>
>>
>> I've used both, and except in some very extreme edge cases, using a VM 
>> is far, far better than using Boot Camp.
> 
> With an ARM Mac, it's going to have to be emulation rather than 
> virtualisation. Code will have to be translated on the run, which means 
> it will be slower. Whether that noticeable to the user will depend on 
> what they're doing and how much more powerful the ARM Macs are.
> 
> There is a version of Windoze that runs on ARM already, which could be a 
> better choice since it could be virtualised ... but most reports say the 
> ARM Windoze isn't as good as x86 Windoze.
> 

Amazing. And Magical.

    Paul

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#132888

On 2020-06-23 11:05 p.m., Paul wrote:
> Your Name wrote:
>> On 2020-06-24 04:45:09 +0000, Alan Baker said:
>>> On 2020-06-23 9:38 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
>>>> Dateline today...
>>>>
>>>> "*Boot Camp Is Dead On [all new ARM-based Macs]*"
>>>>
>> <snip the usual Arlen troll anti-Apple biased garbage>
>>>
>>> I've used both, and except in some very extreme edge cases, using a 
>>> VM is far, far better than using Boot Camp.
>>
>> With an ARM Mac, it's going to have to be emulation rather than 
>> virtualisation. Code will have to be translated on the run, which 
>> means it will be slower. Whether that noticeable to the user will 
>> depend on what they're doing and how much more powerful the ARM Macs are.
>>
>> There is a version of Windoze that runs on ARM already, which could be 
>> a better choice since it could be virtualised ... but most reports say 
>> the ARM Windoze isn't as good as x86 Windoze.
>>
> 
> Amazing. And Magical.
> 
>     Paul

That Apple has pretty seamlessly managed:

Transitioning from Motorola...

...to PowerPC...

...to Intel...

...and now to the ARM instruction set?

Yeah... ...it is.

:-)

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#132889

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 02:05:40 -0400, Paul wrote:

> Amazing. And Magical.

Hi Paul,

I'm only now learning about the ARM-Mac differences from Intel-Mac.

Specificically, I'm not familiar with this now-dead "boot camp" freeware.
o However, I'm very familiar with booting to any number of OS's via Grub.

*Is this now-dead-on-ARM-Macs BootCamp freeware similar to Grub?*
o Can it boot to any number of operating systems like Grub can?

I've used Grub for many years to dual boot Windows & Linux.
o You punch in a number to boot to any number of operating systems

When you boot to Linux in a Windows/Linux configuration, you have full
access to the Windows file system (after turning off hibernation & quick
boot at initial setup) from Linux.

This complete read/write access from any number of operating systems to the
Windows file system is _extremely_ useful (e.g., to read/write the full
visible iOS file system to Windows).

*Are Grub & Boot Camp freeware essentially equivalent functionalities?*
-- 
MARKETING affects everyone... some far more than others.

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#132890

On 2020-06-24 01:10, Your Name wrote:
> On 2020-06-24 04:45:09 +0000, Alan Baker said:
>> On 2020-06-23 9:38 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> Dateline today...
>>>
>>> "*Boot Camp Is Dead On [all new ARM-based Macs]*"
>>>
> <snip the usual Arlen troll anti-Apple biased garbage>
>>
>> I've used both, and except in some very extreme edge cases, using a VM 
>> is far, far better than using Boot Camp.
> 
> With an ARM Mac, it's going to have to be emulation rather than 
> virtualisation. Code will have to be translated on the run, which means 
> it will be slower. Whether that noticeable to the user will depend on 
> what they're doing and how much more powerful the ARM Macs are.

Or, at the VM level a company like Fusion or Parallels could develop 
their own Rosetta like process that translates the code once only to 
replace the x86 code with ARM code and load that thereafter.

In the presentation they had Parallels (x86) hosting Linux running 
Apache.  (Admittedly not a CPU heavy task serving up a webpage ...).

https://youtu.be/GEZhD3J89ZE?t=6111

It's not clear to me how that was stacked up (was it x86 code throughout 
the parallels VM? Should be...).  But it is clear that it worked.

> 
> There is a version of Windoze that runs on ARM already, which could be a 
> better choice since it could be virtualised ... but most reports say the 
> ARM Windoze isn't as good as x86 Windoze.

MS' implementation of ARM Windows on the latest Surface Pro has been a 
flop in several ways.  Classic MS "get it out there...".

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#132891

In article <%KIIG.33204$pC.6379@fx19.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> 
> In the presentation they had Parallels (x86) hosting Linux running 
> Apache.  (Admittedly not a CPU heavy task serving up a webpage ...).
> 
> https://youtu.be/GEZhD3J89ZE?t=6111
> 
> It's not clear to me how that was stacked up (was it x86 code throughout 
> the parallels VM? Should be...).  But it is clear that it worked.

an arm version of linux.

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#132908

On 2020-06-24 09:45, nospam wrote:
> In article <%KIIG.33204$pC.6379@fx19.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>> In the presentation they had Parallels (x86) hosting Linux running
>> Apache.  (Admittedly not a CPU heavy task serving up a webpage ...).
>>
>> https://youtu.be/GEZhD3J89ZE?t=6111
>>
>> It's not clear to me how that was stacked up (was it x86 code throughout
>> the parallels VM? Should be...).  But it is clear that it worked.
> 
> an arm version of linux.

I wouldn't think so. Parallels is an x86 gig.  So while it can be 
Rosetta 2'd itself, it's made to host x86 OS'.  Can Rosetta 2 do the 
VM'd portion as well?  Possibly.  Indeed the icon for Mac 11 
Virtualization has three heads ...

Possibly Parallels and Apple worked together and Parallels have an ARM 
version hosting ARM Linux.

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#132911

In article <COLIG.27666$hQ4.17908@fx39.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >> It's not clear to me how that was stacked up (was it x86 code throughout
> >> the parallels VM? Should be...).  But it is clear that it worked.
> > 
> > an arm version of linux.
> 
> I wouldn't think so.

it is.

> Parallels is an x86 gig. 

more accurately, they're a hypervisor gig, using the hypervisor on x86.

part of the apple processors is also a hypervisor making it relatively
easy to virtualize another arm os.

> So while it can be 
> Rosetta 2'd itself, it's made to host x86 OS'.  Can Rosetta 2 do the 
> VM'd portion as well?  Possibly.  Indeed the icon for Mac 11 
> Virtualization has three heads ...

it might be possible to do that, but it would not work well.

> Possibly Parallels and Apple worked together and Parallels have an ARM 
> version hosting ARM Linux.

yep.

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#132893

Alan Browne wrote:

> 
> MS' implementation of ARM Windows on the latest Surface Pro has been a 
> flop in several ways.  Classic MS "get it out there...".

There was a Win10 objective though. To justify a Cloud orientation,
you have to cover all the users devices, from x86 desktops, laptops,
to ARM tablets or Windows Phone. They even have a version that
runs on the RPi (although graphics are gimped to a static image,
as the OS in that case was for "running the hardware" and not
intended as a replacement for a regular desktop).

I think Windows 10 was also offered as an installable option
on one of the Android smartphones.

Could I run a legacy win32 application in every case ?

Well, that's where the users aspirations come in.
Damn those users for expecting stuff to work for them.

*******

The transition for Apple, from x86 to ARM, is great for
their business plan, disruptive for their users. Take
me as an example. Sitting right next to me, right now,
is a PowerPC Mac, a G4. Now, look in the room. Do you
see an x86 Mac ? No. Why ? "Disruptive". How do I feel
today about an ARM version ? Are there enough adjectives ?

There are actually three Macintosh computers in this room.
What do they have ? All have PowerPC. Continuity. Continuity
helped make the sale.

So while Apple can change CPU families and "manage the transition",
guess what they lose when they do that ? They lost *at least*
one customer... By making an orphan of my software collection,
what else would you expect me to do ? There's not enough
reality distortion field for that.

    Paul

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#132896

In article <rcvmdv$s9e$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

> The transition for Apple, from x86 to ARM, is great for
> their business plan, disruptive for their users. 

it's not disruptive at all. quite the opposite, actually.

> Take
> me as an example. Sitting right next to me, right now,
> is a PowerPC Mac, a G4. Now, look in the room. Do you
> see an x86 Mac ? No. Why ? "Disruptive". How do I feel
> today about an ARM version ? Are there enough adjectives ?

what disruption? powerpc apps ran unmodified on intel macs without the
user needing to do anything special. just double-click the app as usual
and it 'just worked'.

one exception was virtual pc, which emulated x86 on powerpc processors
and was no longer needed since it could now run virtualized and at
native speeds.

> There are actually three Macintosh computers in this room.
> What do they have ? All have PowerPC. Continuity. Continuity
> helped make the sale.

those are all 15+ years old.

> So while Apple can change CPU families and "manage the transition",
> guess what they lose when they do that ? They lost *at least*
> one customer...

and gained millions more customers.

> By making an orphan of my software collection,
> what else would you expect me to do ? There's not enough
> reality distortion field for that.

apple didn't orphan anything. 

what they did was go out well of their way so that existing powerpc
software continued to work unmodified on an intel mac, without the user
even noticing.

apple did the same thing with the 68->powerpc transition, which was
*so* effective that the the slowest powermac ran 68k apps faster than
an actual 68k mac.

for powerpc->intel, windows could run unmodified, and apple even
provided the necessary drivers and a simple install assistant.

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#132899

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:24:50 -0400, nospam wrote:

> apple didn't orphan anything.

Hi nospam,

As Paul just now eloquently exasperated... 
o *In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.*

This loss of this one freeware tool "could be" the harbinger of the demise
of freeware & 99-year licenses on ARM Mac.

Time will tell on that prediction, but what we know for sure
with respect to software running native on the new ARM Mac...
o Apple effectively orphaned _everything_ (AFAICT) in one fell swoop!

That means, if you want your software to run native on the ARM Mac
o You have to buy _new_ payware (which may likely be subscription based)

Worse...
o *You now have to buy payware to replace your freeware* (e.g., boot camp).

In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.

While Apple has the lowest R&D % spend in all of high tech, never
underestimate the power of their MARKETING schemes, as Apple has a very
high profit margin indeed - and that's clearly not due to its R&D
expenditures.
-- 
This is a harbinger of a demise of freeware & 99-year licenses on ARM Mac.

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#132900

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 14:38:11 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> o *In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.*

I should have noted this was all your current "Mac" software (freeware and
payware) no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.

Where the point of this thread is the demise of Boot Camp freeware.
o The only native known alternative is payware to do the same thing.
-- 
The iOS software very well might (and probably will) run native (AFAIK).

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#132926

On 2020-06-24 7:40 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 14:38:11 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
> 
>> o *In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.*
> 
> I should have noted this was all your current "Mac" software (freeware and
> payware) no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.

And I noted that there was no reason for you to care.

> 
> Where the point of this thread is the demise of Boot Camp freeware.
> o The only native known alternative is payware to do the same thing.
> 

VirtualBox from Oracle...

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#132930

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 14:40:57 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> The only native known alternative is payware to do the same thing.

Correction:

I should note that even the payware described in the news article for the
new Mac ARM, doesn't do the same thing as did the freeware on the old Mac
(they're quite different functionalities, actually).

Hence, in this case, until/unless a freeware solution is found for the new
Mac ARM, the article's lament appears to be valid that the new Mac ARM will
simply lose this freeware functionality that was ubiquitous on the old Mac.

Having had freeware dual boot capabilities on Windows/Linux for so long I
can't remember, I can't imagine that the Mac ARM users are happy losing
basic functionality that puts Mac ARM users back in the Stone Age of
computing without it.
-- 
A freeware solution for the Mac ARM will perhaps be found in the future.

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#132956

On 2020-06-24 6:53 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 14:40:57 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
> 
>> The only native known alternative is payware to do the same thing.
> 
> Correction:
> 
> I should note that even the payware described in the news article for the
> new Mac ARM, doesn't do the same thing as did the freeware on the old Mac
> (they're quite different functionalities, actually).

No, actually.

In functionality they are virtually (see what I did there?) identical.

> 
> Hence, in this case, until/unless a freeware solution is found for the new
> Mac ARM, the article's lament appears to be valid that the new Mac ARM will
> simply lose this freeware functionality that was ubiquitous on the old Mac.
> 
> Having had freeware dual boot capabilities on Windows/Linux for so long I
> can't remember, I can't imagine that the Mac ARM users are happy losing
> basic functionality that puts Mac ARM users back in the Stone Age of
> computing without it.

And they're not losing it.

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#132925

On 2020-06-24 7:38 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:24:50 -0400, nospam wrote:
> 
>> apple didn't orphan anything.
> 
> Hi nospam,
> 
> As Paul just now eloquently exasperated...
> o *In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.*

But if it runs just as well...

...why would you care?

> 
> This loss of this one freeware tool "could be" the harbinger of the demise
> of freeware & 99-year licenses on ARM Mac.

What are you even talking about?

> 
> Time will tell on that prediction, but what we know for sure
> with respect to software running native on the new ARM Mac...
> o Apple effectively orphaned _everything_ (AFAICT) in one fell swoop!

Ummm.... ...no.

They didn't.

> 
> That means, if you want your software to run native on the ARM Mac
> o You have to buy _new_ payware (which may likely be subscription based)

Ummmmm... ...no.

> 
> Worse...
> o *You now have to buy payware to replace your freeware* (e.g., boot camp).

Ummmm... ...no.

> 
> In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM Mac.

Ummm... ...wrong.

> 
> While Apple has the lowest R&D % spend in all of high tech, never
> underestimate the power of their MARKETING schemes, as Apple has a very
> high profit margin indeed - and that's clearly not due to its R&D
> expenditures.
> 

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#132928

Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2020-06-24 7:38 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:24:50 -0400, nospam wrote:
>>
>>> apple didn't orphan anything.
>>
>> Hi nospam,
>>
>> As Paul just now eloquently exasperated...
>> o *In one swoop, _all_ your software no longer runs native on the ARM 
>> Mac.*
> 
> But if it runs just as well...
> 
> ...why would you care?

If you've ever run heterogenous VMs, you'll know
what to expect.

They can run at 0.1x to 0.01x of the native clock speed.

VirtualBox in a homogenous ("untranslated") situation,
runs at around 0.9x. Giving you most of the CPU core you're
using. What VirtualBox doesn't always do a good job of,
is running multiple cores smoothly. There are some rough
edges under the hood. In some instances, it even rails
a core due to some sort of tasking issue.

Who wants to go from an Intel processor that turbos up
to 5GHz on a single thread, to some 2GHz ARM core doing
translation to make some legacy item run ?

I've been through all of this before. And have
no interest in "trying it" or anything else.

I used to run SoftWindows on PowerPC, as well
as VirtualPC (Connectix) back when it was its
own company.

Today, it's "native", "x86-on-x86", or "get outta town".
That's why I gave the "Magical" comment, not wanting
to waste the time explaining it.

    Paul

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#132931

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 20:17:57 -0400, Paul wrote:

> If you've ever run heterogenous VMs, you'll know
> what to expect.

Hi Paul,

Anyone who suggests a VM to replace BootCamp/Grub, doesn't understand either.

As a purposefully helpful poster (unlike Alan Baker, who simply wants to
claim the Mac does everything better than does Windows), you need to
realize, if you don't already, that Alan Baker has an IQ of around 40 or 50
IMHO, so it's completely over his head that a VM isn't even close to the
functionality gained simply by "booting" to that 2nd operating system.

You'll have to explain that simple fact to him _multiple_ times...
o And, since he's an AppleSeed cultist, he _still_ won't get it.

Until/unless a freeware solution is found for the new Mac ARM, the
article's lament appears to be valid that the new Mac ARM will simply lose
this freeware functionality that was ubiquitous on the old Mac.

Having had freeware dual boot capabilities on Windows/Linux for so long I
can't remember, I can't imagine that the Mac ARM users are happy losing
basic functionality that puts Mac ARM users back in the Stone Age of
computing without it.

> I've been through all of this before. And have
> no interest in "trying it" or anything else.

Like you, and many others, I've been through the VM hassle before also.
o It's not even close to the functionality of booting directly to the OS.

As you're well aware, I've written tutorials on how to set up VMs in
Windows, and it's just horrid (particularly when you deal with the
hardware).

As such, like you, I'm done with classic VMs (and emulation also), which is
well known as I openly described why I'm done with VMs in detail on the
recent thread using WSL inside of Windows:
o *Tutorial for setting up Ubuntu as a Windows Subsystem for Linux WSL in Windows 10*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/rOT8xBWo9dk>

Anyone who suggests a VM to replace BootCamp/Grub, doesn't understand either
-- 
A freeware solution for the Mac ARM will perhaps be found in the future.

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