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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #133949 > unrolled thread

Trivia Pixar computers

Started byJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
First post2020-08-10 04:52 -0400
Last post2020-08-17 08:59 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 146 — 10 participants

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Contents

  Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-10 04:52 -0400
    Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-10 08:02 -0400
      Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-11 02:49 -0400
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-11 07:13 +0000
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-11 14:04 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-11 20:39 +0000
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-11 19:22 -0400
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-11 09:39 -0400
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-11 09:50 -0700
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-11 14:08 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-11 20:37 +0000
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-11 17:02 -0700
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-12 12:27 +0000
                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-12 08:09 -0700
                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-12 21:29 +0000
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-12 14:34 -0700
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-12 20:25 -0400
                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-12 22:23 -0400
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-12 22:43 -0400
                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-12 19:52 -0700
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-13 04:26 +0000
                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-13 02:44 -0400
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-13 08:10 +0000
                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-13 19:15 -0400
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-13 19:47 -0400
                                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-14 00:33 +0000
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-14 03:40 +0000
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-08-17 08:45 -0400
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-13 09:25 -0400
                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-13 13:39 -0700
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-13 19:19 -0400
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-13 23:21 +0000
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-13 19:47 -0400
                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-14 00:35 +0000
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-14 03:43 +0000
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-13 04:24 +0000
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-11 19:22 -0400
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-11 16:58 -0700
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-12 12:32 +0000
                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-12 08:10 -0700
                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-12 21:32 +0000
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-12 14:36 -0700
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-12 20:25 -0400
                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-12 22:29 -0400
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-12 22:43 -0400
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-13 04:29 +0000
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-12 08:44 -0400
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-16 08:25 -0400
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-16 17:11 +0000
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-17 09:14 -0400
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-17 17:43 +0000
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-16 14:17 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-16 19:00 +0000
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-16 21:09 +0000
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-17 01:14 +0000
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-17 07:10 -0400
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-17 21:45 +0000
                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-18 11:02 -0400
                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-18 21:01 -0400
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-19 01:30 +0000
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-18 18:39 -0700
                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-19 05:57 +0000
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-19 00:39 -0700
                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-19 10:00 +0000
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 06:34 -0400
                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-19 10:57 -0700
                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-19 20:29 +0000
                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-19 16:49 -0400
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 17:00 -0400
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-19 21:05 +0000
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-20 03:36 +0000
                                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-19 21:28 -0700
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-19 10:56 -0700
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 00:32 -0400
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Krzysztof Mitko <invalid@kmitko.at.list.dot.pl> - 2020-08-21 13:45 +0200
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-16 16:13 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-16 21:23 +0000
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-17 09:37 -0400
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-17 17:35 +0000
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-17 13:46 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-17 09:27 -0400
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-17 17:48 +0000
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-17 14:56 -0400
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-17 15:21 -0400
                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-18 18:05 -0400
                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 00:32 -0400
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-19 07:14 +0000
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 06:34 -0400
                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-19 05:58 -0400
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-19 10:11 +0000
                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-19 16:45 -0400
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 17:00 -0400
                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-19 18:38 -0400
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 18:58 -0400
                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-19 23:51 -0400
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-20 00:27 -0400
                                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-20 06:12 +0000
                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-20 08:25 +0000
                                      Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-22 21:39 -0400
                                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-22 21:55 -0400
                                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-22 23:06 -0400
                                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-22 23:48 -0400
                                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-23 22:36 -0700
                                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-23 06:22 +0000
                                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-23 04:41 -0400
                                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-23 06:42 -0400
                                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-23 11:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-23 19:33 -0400
                                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-23 21:11 -0400
                                                    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-24 13:11 +0000
                                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-23 06:21 +0000
                                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-23 04:34 -0400
                                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-23 06:42 -0400
                                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-23 19:06 -0400
                                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-23 23:31 +0000
                                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-23 21:11 -0400
                                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-23 11:19 +0000
                                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-23 06:42 -0400
                        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 06:34 -0400
                          Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-19 19:24 +0000
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 16:35 -0400
                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-19 21:01 +0000
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 18:58 -0400
                            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-19 20:42 +0000
                              Re: Trivia Pixar computers Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-08-19 21:21 +0000
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-19 18:41 -0400
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-19 18:58 -0400
                                Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-20 03:31 +0000
      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-16 08:03 -0400
    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Calum <com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat> - 2020-08-10 14:16 +0100
      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-08-11 10:04 +1200
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-11 07:14 +0000
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-16 08:31 -0400
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-16 17:13 +0000
    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-10 08:20 -0700
      Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-11 03:07 -0400
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-11 17:12 -0700
          Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-12 00:59 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-08-11 22:23 -0700
              Re: Trivia Pixar computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-08-12 19:28 -0400
                Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-12 20:25 -0400
            Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-12 12:37 +0000
    Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-16 07:54 -0400
      Re: Trivia Pixar computers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2020-08-16 17:06 +0000
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-08-16 14:17 -0400
        Re: Trivia Pixar computers Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2020-08-17 08:59 -0400

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#134083

FromAlan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no>
Date2020-08-18 18:39 -0700
Message-ID<rhhvt2$6j7$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#134082
On 2020-08-18 6:30 p.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <pR__G.354093$PN2.133602@fx48.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>> preferences are less obvious.
> 
> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.

That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?

While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in 
macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is 
an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...

...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...

in both "com.<company>..." format...

...and folders within that folder.
> 
>> Unix has no standard, so many apps stored their prfs in ~/.something to
>> make them hidden.
> 
> No Mac apps, no.
> 
> 

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#134086

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2020-08-19 05:57 +0000
Message-ID<slrnrjpfqo.2u8q.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>
In reply to#134083
In message <rhhvt2$6j7$1@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2020-08-18 6:30 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>> In message <pR__G.354093$PN2.133602@fx48.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>>> preferences are less obvious.
>> 
>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.

> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?

No.

> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in 
> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is 
> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...

Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
tentacles into the OS is another.

> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...

Not preferences.

-- 
A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134088

FromAlan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no>
Date2020-08-19 00:39 -0700
Message-ID<rhil0c$3cg$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#134086
On 2020-08-18 10:57 p.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <rhhvt2$6j7$1@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>> On 2020-08-18 6:30 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <pR__G.354093$PN2.133602@fx48.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>>>> preferences are less obvious.
>>>
>>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
>>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.
> 
>> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
> 
> No.
> 
>> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in
>> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is
>> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...
> 
> Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
> to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
> tentacles into the OS is another.
> 
>> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...
> 
> Not preferences.
> 

Congratulations!

You have entirely missed the point!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134090

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2020-08-19 10:00 +0000
Message-ID<slrnrjpu1j.c1a.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>
In reply to#134088
In message <rhil0c$3cg$1@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2020-08-18 10:57 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>> In message <rhhvt2$6j7$1@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>> On 2020-08-18 6:30 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <pR__G.354093$PN2.133602@fx48.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>>>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>>>>> preferences are less obvious.
>>>>
>>>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
>>>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.
>> 
>>> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
>> 
>> No.
>> 
>>> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in
>>> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is
>>> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...
>> 
>> Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
>> to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
>> tentacles into the OS is another.
>> 
>>> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...
>> 
>> Not preferences.
>> 

> Congratulations!

> You have entirely missed the point!

Nope. PREFERENCES ARE STORED IN THE PREFERENCES FOLDER.

The preference folder may be the top level folder in Library, or the
folder inside the Containers folders.

-- 
My screesaver is tail -f /var/log/mail.log

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134093

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2020-08-19 06:34 -0400
Message-ID<190820200634243370%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#134090
In article <slrnrjpu1j.c1a.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> >>>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
> >>>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
> >>>>> preferences are less obvious.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
> >>>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.
> >> 
> >>> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
> >> 
> >> No.
> >> 
> >>> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in
> >>> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is
> >>> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...
> >> 
> >> Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
> >> to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
> >> tentacles into the OS is another.
> >> 
> >>> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...
> >> 
> >> Not preferences.
> >> 
> 
> > Congratulations!
> 
> > You have entirely missed the point!
> 
> Nope. PREFERENCES ARE STORED IN THE PREFERENCES FOLDER.
> 
> The preference folder may be the top level folder in Library, or the
> folder inside the Containers folders.

prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
can't control what app developers do.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134096

FromAlan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no>
Date2020-08-19 10:57 -0700
Message-ID<rhjp6p$4uh$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#134093
On 2020-08-19 3:34 a.m., nospam wrote:
> In article <slrnrjpu1j.c1a.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>>>>>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>>>>>>> preferences are less obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
>>>>>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.
>>>>
>>>>> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>>> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in
>>>>> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is
>>>>> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...
>>>>
>>>> Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
>>>> to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
>>>> tentacles into the OS is another.
>>>>
>>>>> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...
>>>>
>>>> Not preferences.
>>>>
>>
>>> Congratulations!
>>
>>> You have entirely missed the point!
>>
>> Nope. PREFERENCES ARE STORED IN THE PREFERENCES FOLDER.
>>
>> The preference folder may be the top level folder in Library, or the
>> folder inside the Containers folders.
> 
> prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
> can't control what app developers do.
> 

Precisely.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134098

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2020-08-19 20:29 +0000
Message-ID<slrnrjr2tq.1ib4.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>
In reply to#134093
In message <190820200634243370%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <slrnrjpu1j.c1a.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> >>>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>> >>>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>> >>>>> preferences are less obvious.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
>> >>>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.
>> >> 
>> >>> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
>> >> 
>> >> No.
>> >> 
>> >>> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in
>> >>> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is
>> >>> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...
>> >> 
>> >> Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
>> >> to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
>> >> tentacles into the OS is another.
>> >> 
>> >>> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...
>> >> 
>> >> Not preferences.
>> >> 
>> 
>> > Congratulations!
>> 
>> > You have entirely missed the point!
>> 
>> Nope. PREFERENCES ARE STORED IN THE PREFERENCES FOLDER.
>> 
>> The preference folder may be the top level folder in Library, or the
>> folder inside the Containers folders.

> prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
> can't control what app developers do.

It's a rare app that fucks this up though. Adobe, I assume. Google, of
course. But there are 531 preferences files in ~/Library/Preferences/
and 165 in ~/Library/Containers/*/Data/Library/Preferences.

-- 
There's no such thing as too much chocolate.

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#134102

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2020-08-19 16:49 -0400
Message-ID<pfg%G.408701$DO2.313111@fx45.iad>
In reply to#134093
On 2020-08-19 06:34, nospam wrote:

> 
> prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
> can't control what app developers do.

So not in Application Suport then ?


Some products have stuff in both Preferences and application support.

There should have been a single directory where an application had its
own directory to store user specific data and preferences.




[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134104

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2020-08-19 17:00 -0400
Message-ID<190820201700485208%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#134102
In article <pfg%G.408701$DO2.313111@fx45.iad>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
> > can't control what app developers do.
> 
> So not in Application Suport then ?

nope. that's for application support files, thus its name.

examples of app support files includes templates, shared libraries,
custom fonts, etc.

> Some products have stuff in both Preferences and application support.
>
> There should have been a single directory where an application had its
> own directory to store user specific data and preferences.

nope, because they're two different things and should go into two
different places.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134106

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2020-08-19 21:05 +0000
Message-ID<hq5ihbFpb2eU11@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#134102
On Aug 19, 2020 at 1:49:25 PM MST, "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
wrote:

> On 2020-08-19 06:34, nospam wrote:
> 
>>  
>>  prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
>>  can't control what app developers do.
> 
> So not in Application Suport then ?

Correct. Application Support does not hold preferences but instead things like
data the app might use. It is especially useful when you have a suite of
software all looking for the same resources. 

> Some products have stuff in both Preferences and application support.
> 
> There should have been a single directory where an application had its
> own directory to store user specific data and preferences.

This would have made the Preferences folder either buried deeper or more
cluttered.

What used to happen (and sometimes still does) is that companies such as Adobe
and others would have their own folders in the "System" folder on Classic Mac.
On macOS they created a folder to allow companies to have such a folder in the
Library folder... with limited success. 


-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot
use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow
superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134117

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2020-08-20 03:36 +0000
Message-ID<slrnrjrrtv.2b36.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>
In reply to#134102
In message <pfg%G.408701$DO2.313111@fx45.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2020-08-19 06:34, nospam wrote:

>> 
>> prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
>> can't control what app developers do.

> So not in Application Suport then ?


> Some products have stuff in both Preferences and application support.

You are very confused. A random file that the application has is not a
"preference file". WTF is wrong with you.

> There should have been a single directory where an application had its
> own directory to store user specific data and preferences.

That is how it is now. That folder is Library/Containers/



-- 
What would be the point of cyphering messages that very clever
	enemies couldn't break? You'd end up not knowing what they
	thought you thought they were thinking... --The Fifth Elephant

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134120

FromAlan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no>
Date2020-08-19 21:28 -0700
Message-ID<rhku5j$v14$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#134117
On 2020-08-19 8:36 p.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <pfg%G.408701$DO2.313111@fx45.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> On 2020-08-19 06:34, nospam wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> prefs *should* be stored in the preferences folder, however, apple
>>> can't control what app developers do.
> 
>> So not in Application Suport then ?
> 
> 
>> Some products have stuff in both Preferences and application support.
> 
> You are very confused. A random file that the application has is not a
> "preference file". WTF is wrong with you.

Nothing prevents an application from putting preferences wherever the 
coders want; nothing beyond normal file permissions.

> 
>> There should have been a single directory where an application had its
>> own directory to store user specific data and preferences.
> 
> That is how it is now. That folder is Library/Containers/
> 
> 
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134095

FromAlan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no>
Date2020-08-19 10:56 -0700
Message-ID<rhjp45$4uh$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#134090
On 2020-08-19 3:00 a.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <rhil0c$3cg$1@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>> On 2020-08-18 10:57 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <rhhvt2$6j7$1@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>> On 2020-08-18 6:30 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <pR__G.354093$PN2.133602@fx48.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
>>>>>> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
>>>>>> preferences are less obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, Preferences are stored in the Preferences folder, either inside the
>>>>> Library folder top level, or inside a Container folder in the Library.
>>>
>>>> That's more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>>> While the files that meet the canonical definition of "preference" in
>>>> macOS might live in those locations, it is trivial to note that there is
>>>> an "Acrobat User Data" folder at the top level of my ~/Library...
>>>
>>> Adobe is a shit developer and is banned on my systems. Their inability
>>> to not fuck things up is a prime reason for that ban. Their deep
>>> tentacles into the OS is another.
>>>
>>>> ...not to mention what is found in "Application Support" folder...
>>>
>>> Not preferences.
>>>
> 
>> Congratulations!
> 
>> You have entirely missed the point!
> 
> Nope. PREFERENCES ARE STORED IN THE PREFERENCES FOLDER.
> 
> The preference folder may be the top level folder in Library, or the
> folder inside the Containers folders.
> 

No. Preferences are MOSTLY stored in the preferences folder...

...but applications can be coded to put what the application uses for 
its preferences ANYWHERE THE USER CAN WRITE FILES.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134084

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2020-08-19 00:32 -0400
Message-ID<190820200032139886%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#134081
In article <pR__G.354093$PN2.133602@fx48.iad>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> While an application is free to have its preferences fiels anywhere it
> wants, 

no it doesn't.

> generally operating systems provide some standards of where
> preferences should be stored. (and in the case of IOS, the app is more
> dansboxed so has to follow standards).

yep.

> OS-X has a confusing set of locations.

no it doesn't.

>  in ~/Library, some apps have their own directory, some in Application
> Support, some in Preferences.  And then there are the system-wide
> equivalents in /Library and /System/Library.

nothing about that is confusing.

they're all very clearly named for their purpose.

> This matters when you want to reset an application, or delete it and
> have no idea where its preferences are stored. (gets worse with Adobe
> CS6 where the licence is stored under another company's name).

licensing and preferences are not the same and it's trivial to reset
adobe apps.

> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
> preferences are less obvious.

wrong. it's very obvious.

> No OS ios perfect. I this Windows had done he registry thing which was
> very organized but a hell to manage.

the registry is a complete clusterfuck. 

> Unix has no standard, so many apps stored their prfs in ~/.something to
> make them hidden.

that's the standard.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134134

FromKrzysztof Mitko <invalid@kmitko.at.list.dot.pl>
Date2020-08-21 13:45 +0200
Message-ID<5f3fb3c1$0$31100$65785112@news.neostrada.pl>
In reply to#134081
On 19/08/2020 03:01, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2020-08-18 11:02, nospam wrote:
> 
>> the only thing the os does is provide a list of documents to the app
>> upon launch, if any, which occurs in both classic mac os and mac os x.
>>
>> at that point, it's up to the app how to handle it. prefs files would
>> need to be special cased, versus simply opening a normal user document.
> 
> 
> While an application is free to have its preferences fiels anywhere it
> wants, generally operating systems provide some standards of where
> preferences should be stored. (and in the case of IOS, the app is more
> dansboxed so has to follow standards).
> 
> OS-X has a confusing set of locations.
>   in ~/Library, some apps have their own directory, some in Application
> Support, some in Preferences. 

There are guidelines on where to put your stuff.
https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/FileSystemProgrammingGuide/MacOSXDirectories/MacOSXDirectories.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40010672-CH10-SW1

But if some programmer is really stubborn and doesn't want to stick to 
the best practices, you can't really force them.

> And then there are the system-wide
> equivalents in /Library and /System/Library.
> 
> This matters when you want to reset an application, or delete it and
> have no idea where its preferences are stored. (gets worse with Adobe
> CS6 where the licence is stored under another company's name).
> 
> 
> Apple has done a pretty good job of setting the standard of
> /Applications for where application "files" should be stored. But
> preferences are less obvious.
> 
> No OS ios perfect. I this Windows had done he registry thing which was
> very organized but a hell to manage.

…and still some applications stored preferences in *.ini files in random 
places.

> Unix has no standard, so many apps stored their prfs in ~/.something to
> make them hidden.

-- 
Chemical engineers do it in packed beds.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134059

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2020-08-16 16:13 -0400
Message-ID<Vrg_G.160232$Av7.133087@fx34.iad>
In reply to#134045
On 2020-08-16 08:25, Bud Frede wrote:

> At the time that I was given a copy of OPENSTEP, there wasn't a NeXTSTEP
> being sold. OPENSTEP was the product and it was what they called the
> OS. 

NeXT went from  NextSTEP running on 68k, started porting to PowerPC,
then to 486.
NeXT then stopped selling hardware.
NeXT then stopped NeXTStEP operating system, extracted the UI and APIS
and packaged them as OpenSTEp to be sold to a variety of customers
(banks, and a few computer companies).
OPENstep was not an operating system, but t came from NextStep.

Apple bought NeXT and resurrrected NEXTStep because it needed a core
operating system that supported multitasking etc.   It used the OpenStep
improvments made since NexTSTEP was stopped, and also ported the MacOS
classic APIs to the powerPC version that would be commercialised as OS-X.

A lot fo the OS-X operating systems and default applcations such as
Preview came from NexTStep/openStep and those were already available on
a number of CPU platforms.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134061

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2020-08-16 21:23 +0000
Message-ID<slrnrjj8ud.2bon.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>
In reply to#134059
In message <Vrg_G.160232$Av7.133087@fx34.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2020-08-16 08:25, Bud Frede wrote:

>> At the time that I was given a copy of OPENSTEP, there wasn't a NeXTSTEP
>> being sold. OPENSTEP was the product and it was what they called the
>> OS. 

> NeXT went from  NextSTEP running on 68k, started porting to PowerPC,
> then to 486.

Next ported from 68K to x86. They oly started working n powerpc. The way
you phrased it, as is usual for you, very misleading as you are implying
they started power pc and started x86.

> Apple bought NeXT and resurrrected NEXTStep

No. NextStep was not resurrected. That is just flat out false.

Rhapsody was OpenStep running bits of OS 8 and some other stuff that was
intended to be the the next server OS, but it failed. It was NEVER
NextStep, it was OpenStep.

Now, Open Step was largely NextStep, but the important difference is
important here in that it was a set of APIs and NOT an OS.

> because it needed a core operating system that supported multitasking
> etc. It used the OpenStep improvments made since NexTSTEP was
> stopped, and also ported the MacOS
> classic APIs to the powerPC version that would be commercialised as OS-X.

And, again, you are mostly wrong. OS X was not rhapsody either, and it
was not NextStep. And it is not even OpenStep. The OS was OS X which ran
on Darwin. Darwin included numerous technologies including a lot of
OpenStep, Quartz, Carbon, and more. The core OS is a mach-based Unix
named darwin (and that is still the case today).

Not NextSTep. Not Nextstep resurrected nor continued. Mac OS X (macOS)
was something quite new and very much unlike other consumer OSes in that
it subscribed much more to the Unix ethos of having the OS be extremely
modular.

When Apple moved away from Carbon, this was relatively easy to do
because the OS had been built to have bits removed, When Apple needed an
OS for their phone, tablet, and watch, it was OS X because of that
modularity.

> A lot fo the OS-X operating systems and default applcations such as
> Preview came from NexTStep/openStep and those were already available on
> a number of CPU platforms.

This is bullshit.

-- 
The night is always old. He'd walked too often down dark streets in
	the secret hours and felt the night stretching away, and known in
	his blood that while days and kings and empires come and go, the
	night is always the same age, always aeons deep. Terrors unfolded
	in the velvet shadows and while the nature of the talons may
	change, the nature of the beast does not. --Jingo

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134069

FromBud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com>
Date2020-08-17 09:37 -0400
Message-ID<1Kv_G.160845$Av7.36810@fx34.iad>
In reply to#134061
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:

> In message <Vrg_G.160232$Av7.133087@fx34.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> Apple bought NeXT and resurrrected NEXTStep
>
> No. NextStep was not resurrected. That is just flat out false.
>
> Rhapsody was OpenStep running bits of OS 8 and some other stuff that was
> intended to be the the next server OS, but it failed. It was NEVER
> NextStep, it was OpenStep.
>

What I understood at the time was that Rhapsody was the successor to
original Mac OS. They released a server-oriented version of Rhapsody
that was sort of a technology preview and then shifted their
direction. I kind of thought that it was partly because Jobs had
promised that "Rhapsody will run on all currently shipping Macs," but
then they realized that they needed to up the hardware specs, so they
rebranded Rhapsody as Mac OS X. "Rhapsody" did run all those older Macs,
while the actual successor did not.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134070

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2020-08-17 17:35 +0000
Message-ID<slrnrjlfvq.1s09.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>
In reply to#134069
In message <1Kv_G.160845$Av7.36810@fx34.iad> Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:

>> In message <Vrg_G.160232$Av7.133087@fx34.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Apple bought NeXT and resurrrected NEXTStep
>>
>> No. NextStep was not resurrected. That is just flat out false.
>>
>> Rhapsody was OpenStep running bits of OS 8 and some other stuff that was
>> intended to be the the next server OS, but it failed. It was NEVER
>> NextStep, it was OpenStep.
>>

> What I understood at the time was that Rhapsody was the successor to
> original Mac OS. They released a server-oriented version of Rhapsody
> that was sort of a technology preview

Yes, a preview of what was coming to the consumer Mac as well. Rhapsody
was intended to be the new OS, a sort of hybrid Mac OS 8/OpenStep shoved
into a box and tied down with baling wire and cinch straps.

It was abandoned and a new direction that was much more of a "we’re
going to write a new OS and make it work with the old stuff with an app
that will run a mac os 9 (well, 9 by then) OS inside of it, away from
all the new stuff and provide tools to make it easy to move to the new
OS with a minimum of effort."


> and then shifted their direction. I kind of thought that it was partly
> because Jobs had promised that "Rhapsody will run on all currently
> shipping Macs," but then they realized that they needed to up the
> hardware specs, so they rebranded Rhapsody as Mac OS X. "Rhapsody" did
> run all those older Macs, while the actual successor did not.

Rhapsody was not Jobs, it was Amelio.

But I don't think that was the reason, since OS X represented a
completely new OS than Rhapsody. The biggest difference was that moving
code from Mac OS 8 to Rhapsody was much more difficult and required,
essentially, a complete rewrite. Companies were not going to do that,
and they told Apple so. OS X represented a much more accessible path to
developers updating.

Look up "yellow box" if you want a reminder of what a cluster-fuck
Rhapsody was, Sure, it *sounded* good until you really looked at what it
meant. And what it meant, frankly, was the end of the Mac.

OS X ran on a lot of hardware (and far more than Apple certified). I had
a server running 10.0 and 10.1 and MAYBE 10.2 that was supposedly
incapable or running OS X at all.

Granted, it had a lot more memory that the spec claimed was allowed too.
And maybe an upgraded CPU, and it was slow. But it ran.

-- 
You only had to look into Teatime's mismatched eyes to know one
	thing, which was this: if Teatime wanted to find you he would not
	look everywhere. He'd look in only one place, which would be the
	place where you were hiding. --Hogfather

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#134072

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2020-08-17 13:46 -0400
Message-ID<170820201346594493%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#134069
In article <1Kv_G.160845$Av7.36810@fx34.iad>, Bud Frede
<frede@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> >> Apple bought NeXT and resurrrected NEXTStep
> >
> > No. NextStep was not resurrected. That is just flat out false.
> >
> > Rhapsody was OpenStep running bits of OS 8 and some other stuff that was
> > intended to be the the next server OS, but it failed. It was NEVER
> > NextStep, it was OpenStep.
> >
> 
> What I understood at the time was that Rhapsody was the successor to
> original Mac OS. 

you understand wrong. rhapsody was the successor to openstep 4.x. the
plan was to kill off the original mac os.

developers told apple in no uncertain terms that they would not rewrite
their apps for rhapsody, which would spell the end of the mac.

apple said it was impossible to combine the two (well, one person in
particular). adobe said nope, you're wrong, not only is it possible,
but here's how to do it.

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