Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #73487 > unrolled thread

How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

Started by	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
First post	2015-04-20 00:40 +0000
Last post	2015-04-22 09:09 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 379 — 28 participants

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#73586

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:51 +0000
Message-ID	<cpjeuqF7dq8U14@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73584

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in message
> slrnmj8t1d.1eq.g.kreme@amelia.local
>
>>>> it takes 3 steps:
>>>> launch app paste save
>> 
>>> And that saves an ASCII text file?
>> 
>> Yes.
>
> Actually, I know know how it works, based on what David Empson (et al.) 
> intimated

No, you have misunderstood (or more likely purposely misconstrued) what
they told you.

> which is that it's far more steps if you *also* want to 
> preserve the option to save *as* other formats in addition to being able 
> to save *to* ASCII.

Wrong, as you have been told repeatedly.

> Basically, the use model the Mac users employ with the default text 
> editor to enable *either* ASCII text or the other available formats is 
> either to temporarily save to the wrong format and then convert to the 
> desired ASCII format, or, to temporarily set the preferences to only save 
> to ASCII text, and then unset the preferences once done.

Wrong. No conversion is needed. No saving multiple times is needed. And
no setting of preferences is needed.

1. Choose Format > Make Plain|Rich Text.
2. Save the document. 

That's it.

> Given that seems to be what everyone is intimating, there are far more
> than three steps if you want to preserve your options. 

Wrong again.

> However, I do agree, if you give up on your options, you can manage to 
> get the default text editor to save to ASCII text in just 3 steps.

Nope, only two steps as you have been told repeatedly.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73606

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 05:57 +0000
Message-ID	<mh24g2$i5o$21@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73586

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
cpjeuqF7dq8U14@mid.individual.net

> No, you have misunderstood (or more likely purposely misconstrued) what
> they told you.

I apologize for misunderstanding but I believe I now understand the two 
suggested methods.

1. The preferences method
2. The two-menu method

The preferences method, we all agree, is suboptimal if the user wants to 
keep the option of saving to various formats easily available.

The two-menu method, while highly unintuitive, will keep all the options 
open to the user. The user merely needs to reconcile the use of the 
"format" menu versus use of the "save" menu, when deciding what type of 
file to save.

This menu sequence can save a new file to ASCII text:
1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text, File > Save

This can't save a file to ASCII text (but it can save to other formats):
2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

Do I understand the use model yet?

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#73742

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:36 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkh6sFg4haU13@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73606

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjeuqF7dq8U14@mid.individual.net
>
>> No, you have misunderstood (or more likely purposely misconstrued) what
>> they told you.
>
> I apologize for misunderstanding but I believe I now understand the two 
> suggested methods.
>
> 1. The preferences method
> 2. The two-menu method
>
> The preferences method, we all agree, is suboptimal if the user wants to 
> keep the option of saving to various formats easily available.

Nope, we do not agree. You have misunderstood yet again. There is
nothing at all preventing the user from switching between rich and plain
text at will, regardless of the preference setting. All the user needs
to do is choose the appropriate Format menu command to save in any
format he wishes.

> The two-menu method, while highly unintuitive, will keep all the options 
> open to the user. The user merely needs to reconcile the use of the 
> "format" menu versus use of the "save" menu, when deciding what type of 
> file to save.
>
> This menu sequence can save a new file to ASCII text:
> 1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text, File > Save
>
> This can't save a file to ASCII text (but it can save to other formats):
> 2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

There is no such thing as File > Save > File Format > {a variety of
formats}.

> Do I understand the use model yet?

Nope.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73512

From	Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date	2015-04-20 02:30 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnmj8p78.g3.g.kreme@amelia.local>
In reply to	#73502

In message <mh1n92$3dm$4@news.albasani.net> 
  Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420151842061874%michelle@michelle.org

>> But that is what the OP wanted to create.

> I simply want to paste some ASCII text into a text document.

Command-space "text" Return
Command-V
Command-S

-- 
Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. 
I don't think that is a coincidence

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#73561

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-19 20:34 -0700
Message-ID	<190420152034578153%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73502

In article <mh1n92$3dm$4@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> I must be doing something wrong (i.e., not the Macintosh way, 
> because the Mac just can't be this hard to use and inefficient).

Yes, you were doing something wrong; you were trying to do something
the hardest way possible, which it seems that you are always doing.

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#73590

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:58 +0000
Message-ID	<mh211q$i5o$12@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73561

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152034578153%michelle@michelle.org

> Yes, you were doing something wrong; you were trying to do something the
> hardest way possible, which it seems that you are always doing.

Do you realize there are *only* two ways to save an ASCII text file using 
the default Macintosh text editor (based on what nospam et al. has 
intimated) while still preserving your "Save As" options?

1. You temporarily save to the wrong format (choose any one, as it 
doesn't matter since you don't want this format), and then you format 
that wrong-format file to the desired ASCII format.

or ... 

2. You temporarily set your preferences to save *to* ASCII, and then you 
save the file to ASCII text, but since that makes you lose the option of 
saving as other format, you then immediately unset the preferences you 
just set, so that you're back where you started.

Given those are the only two options available in the default text editor
(according to everyone who has posted), I must heartily agree with Jolly 
Roger that the Hobson's choice is to temporarily save to the wrong format
and to then convert that wrong format to the desired format.

If you know of a *simpler* option using the default text editor, please 
tell us because what I prefer would be to simply save as either ASCII
text, or something else (that would be the intuitive approach Apple 
didn't provide).

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#73591

From	Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
Date	2015-04-19 22:08 -0700
Message-ID	<20150419220835477-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMme.com>
In reply to	#73590

On 2015-04-20 04:58:34 +0000, Adam H. Kerman said:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152034578153%michelle@michelle.org
> 
>> Yes, you were doing something wrong; you were trying to do something the
>> hardest way possible, which it seems that you are always doing.
> 
> Do you realize there are *only* two ways to save an ASCII text file using
> the default Macintosh text editor (based on what nospam et al. has
> intimated) while still preserving your "Save As" options?
> 
> 1. You temporarily save to the wrong format (choose any one, as it
> doesn't matter since you don't want this format), and then you format
> that wrong-format file to the desired ASCII format.
> 
> or ...
> 
> 2. You temporarily set your preferences to save *to* ASCII, and then you
> save the file to ASCII text, but since that makes you lose the option of
> saving as other format, you then immediately unset the preferences you
> just set, so that you're back where you started.
> 
> Given those are the only two options available in the default text editor
> (according to everyone who has posted), I must heartily agree with Jolly
> Roger that the Hobson's choice is to temporarily save to the wrong format
> and to then convert that wrong format to the desired format.
> 
> If you know of a *simpler* option using the default text editor, please
> tell us because what I prefer would be to simply save as either ASCII
> text, or something else (that would be the intuitive approach Apple
> didn't provide).

Aaaaaaaaagggh!!!

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

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#73597

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 05:30 +0000
Message-ID	<cpjh70F8gnvU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73590

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152034578153%michelle@michelle.org
>
>> Yes, you were doing something wrong; you were trying to do something the
>> hardest way possible, which it seems that you are always doing.
>
> Do you realize there are *only* two ways to save an ASCII text file using 
> the default Macintosh text editor (based on what nospam et al. has 
> intimated) while still preserving your "Save As" options?
>
> 1. You temporarily save to the wrong format (choose any one, as it 
> doesn't matter since you don't want this format), and then you format 
> that wrong-format file to the desired ASCII format.

WRONG. There is no need to save twice. Set the format you want and save
it - it's that simple.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73608

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 06:00 +0000
Message-ID	<mh24lv$i5o$22@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73597

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
cpjh70F8gnvU2@mid.individual.net

> WRONG. There is no need to save twice. Set the format you want and save
> it - it's that simple.

I apologize for initially misunderstanding; but I believe I now 
understand the suggested methods.

1. The preference method
2. The two-menu method

The preferences method, I think we all agree, is suboptimal if the user 
wishes to retain the option of easily saving to various formats.

The two-menu method, while oddly unintuitive, will keep all the file-
saving options open to the user. The user merely needs to acknowledge the 
use of the "format" menu versus use of the "save" menu, when deciding 
what type of file to save.

This TextEdit menu sequence can save a new file to ASCII text:
1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text, File > Save

This can't save a file to ASCII text (but it can save to other formats):
2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

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#73643

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-20 18:49 +1200
Message-ID	<1m36xby.1qjrbdg1rxfyc2N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#73608

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> The two-menu method, while oddly unintuitive, will keep all the file-
> saving options open to the user.

Wrong. Nothing is lost.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#73668

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 07:28 +0000
Message-ID	<mh29r3$i5o$55@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73643

jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
1m36xby.1qjrbdg1rxfyc2N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz

> Wrong. Nothing is lost.

You clearly don't understand that which you are talking about, or, you're 
merely nitpicking on words, giving them your own personal meaning, just 
to troll.

I never said I was a Mac expert, so, if I understand this far better than 
you do, then you aren't going to add any value anytime soon.

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#73683

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-20 20:13 +1200
Message-ID	<1m3710d.mv4y16nhmpjoN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#73668

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36xby.1qjrbdg1rxfyc2N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> 
> > Wrong. Nothing is lost.
> 
> You clearly don't understand that which you are talking about, or, you're
> merely nitpicking on words, giving them your own personal meaning, just
> to troll.
> 
> I never said I was a Mac expert, so, if I understand this far better than
> you do, then you aren't going to add any value anytime soon.

Really? I don't understand I can switch bwtween rich text and plain text
at will via the Format menu/keyboard shortcut, and thus have appropriate
Save dialog option?
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#73736

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:25 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150725521602%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73668

In article <mh29r3$i5o$55@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36xby.1qjrbdg1rxfyc2N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> 
> > Wrong. Nothing is lost.
> 
> You clearly don't understand that which you are talking about, or, you're 
> merely nitpicking on words, giving them your own personal meaning, just 
> to troll.
> 
> I never said I was a Mac expert, so, if I understand this far better than 
> you do, then you aren't going to add any value anytime soon.

You have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't know what you are
talking about.

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#73745

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:37 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkh9uFg4haU15@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73668

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36xby.1qjrbdg1rxfyc2N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
>
>> Wrong. Nothing is lost.
>
> You clearly don't understand that which you are talking about, or, you're 
> merely nitpicking on words, giving them your own personal meaning, just 
> to troll.
>
> I never said I was a Mac expert, so, if I understand this far better than 
> you do, then you aren't going to add any value anytime soon.

No, it is you who do not understand. And I love how you automatically
assume you know more than anyone else here when the exact *opposite* is
the case.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73772

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-21 03:36 +1200
Message-ID	<1m37lkj.qaydbh483ryfN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#73745

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> > 1m36xby.1qjrbdg1rxfyc2N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> >
> >> Wrong. Nothing is lost.
> >
> > You clearly don't understand that which you are talking about, or, you're
> > merely nitpicking on words, giving them your own personal meaning, just
> > to troll.
> >
> > I never said I was a Mac expert, so, if I understand this far better than
> > you do, then you aren't going to add any value anytime soon.
> 
> No, it is you who do not understand. And I love how you automatically
> assume you know more than anyone else here when the exact *opposite* is
> the case.

He's reliably wrong, if nothing else.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#73746

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:36 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkh85Fg4haU14@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73608

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjh70F8gnvU2@mid.individual.net
>
>> WRONG. There is no need to save twice. Set the format you want and save
>> it - it's that simple.
>
> I apologize for initially misunderstanding; but I believe I now 
> understand the suggested methods.

No, you still don't get it.

> This can't save a file to ASCII text (but it can save to other formats):
> 2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

There's no such thing as File > Save > File Format > {a variety of
formats}.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73792

From	David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Date	2015-04-20 12:35 -0500
Message-ID	<alpine.OSX.2.20.1504201227560.57809@mako.ath.cx>
In reply to	#73746

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message

On Monday, 20 April 2015 14:36 -0000, 
 in article <cpkh85Fg4haU14@mid.individual.net>, 
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> cpjh70F8gnvU2@mid.individual.net

>>> WRONG. There is no need to save twice. Set the format you want and 
>>> save it - it's that simple.

>> I apologize for initially misunderstanding; but I believe I now 
>> understand the suggested methods.

> No, you still don't get it.

>> This can't save a file to ASCII text (but it can save to other 
>> formats): 2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

> There's no such thing as File > Save > File Format > {a variety of 
> formats}.

When saving a rich text document, in TextEdit, there is a File Format 
drop-down menu item, in the Save/Save As dialog.  It is this, to which 
Adam is referring.

When using something like MS Word, there would also be an option for 
plain text, within a similar drop-down menu, in a Save dialog, 
regardless the OS.  This is the item Adam expected and did not find.

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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#73793

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 17:44 +0000
Message-ID	<cpks8pFjidnU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73792

On 2015-04-20, David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> When saving a rich text document, in TextEdit, there is a File Format 
> drop-down menu item, in the Save/Save As dialog.  It is this, to which 
> Adam is referring.

Yes, but he is completely misunderstanding how TextEdit handles rich and
plain text format documents *before* saving them.

> When using something like MS Word, there would also be an option for 
> plain text, within a similar drop-down menu, in a Save dialog, 
> regardless the OS.  This is the item Adam expected and did not find.

TextEdit isn't Word, obviously. Therefore, lots of Word features won't
be present. This is just one of them.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73802

From	David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Date	2015-04-20 15:13 -0500
Message-ID	<alpine.OSX.2.20.1504201445110.57809@mako.ath.cx>
In reply to	#73793

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message

On Monday, 20 April 2015 17:44 -0000, 
 in article <cpks8pFjidnU1@mid.individual.net>, 
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2015-04-20, David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> When saving a rich text document, in TextEdit, there is a File 
>> Format drop-down menu item, in the Save/Save As dialog.  It is 
>> this, to which Adam is referring.

> Yes, but he is completely misunderstanding how TextEdit handles rich 
> and plain text format documents *before* saving them.

I think he's beginning to understand now, but it did require a 
complete rethinking of the way in which he's used to doing things.  
There's no question but that it was an uphill battle, along the 
learning curve.

>> When using something like MS Word, there would also be an option 
>> for plain text, within a similar drop-down menu, in a Save dialog, 
>> regardless the OS.  This is the item Adam expected and did not 
>> find.

> TextEdit isn't Word, obviously. Therefore, lots of Word features 
> won't be present. This is just one of them.

What may be completely obvious to you, me or any number of other 
participants in this overly repetitive and seemingly never-ending 
thread, as long term Mac users, isn't nearly as much so, to a Windows 
user.  I'm not arguing, here.  It took an extremely long time, in 
order to make the most minimal progress, due to confusions regarding 
formatting, plain text v. rich text, character sets, and more.

-- 
"The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the
 top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight.
 They had thought with some reason that there is no more dreadful
 punishment than futile and hopeless labor."  - Albert Camus (1913-60)

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#73803

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 20:35 +0000
Message-ID	<cpl68rFm7ljU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73802

On 2015-04-20, David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> On Monday, 20 April 2015 17:44 -0000, 
>  in article <cpks8pFjidnU1@mid.individual.net>, 
>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-04-20, David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>> When saving a rich text document, in TextEdit, there is a File 
>>> Format drop-down menu item, in the Save/Save As dialog.  It is 
>>> this, to which Adam is referring.
>
>> Yes, but he is completely misunderstanding how TextEdit handles rich 
>> and plain text format documents *before* saving them.
>
> I think he's beginning to understand now, but it did require a 
> complete rethinking of the way in which he's used to doing things.  
> There's no question but that it was an uphill battle, along the 
> learning curve.

It doesn't seem like he has adjusted his thinking *at all* to me.

>>> When using something like MS Word, there would also be an option 
>>> for plain text, within a similar drop-down menu, in a Save dialog, 
>>> regardless the OS.  This is the item Adam expected and did not 
>>> find.
>
>> TextEdit isn't Word, obviously. Therefore, lots of Word features 
>> won't be present. This is just one of them.
>
> What may be completely obvious to you, me or any number of other 
> participants in this overly repetitive and seemingly never-ending 
> thread, as long term Mac users, isn't nearly as much so, to a Windows 
> user.  I'm not arguing, here.  It took an extremely long time, in 
> order to make the most minimal progress, due to confusions regarding 
> formatting, plain text v. rich text, character sets, and more.

And he didn't get very far, either. He still has an extremely incorrect
and incomplete understanding of Mac basics. And I have to doubt whether
he ever will fix that problem with his attitude.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

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