Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #73487 > unrolled thread

How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

Started by	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
First post	2015-04-20 00:40 +0000
Last post	2015-04-22 09:09 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 379 — 28 participants

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#73652

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-20 19:06 +1200
Message-ID	<1m36xty.ptg6tscooxklN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#73636

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152336301780%michelle@michelle.org
> 
> > If you set preferences to Plain Text, you won't need "Format > Make
> > Plain Text" in that sequence.
> 
> Yes but.
> 
> You lose the ability to save to the other formats.
> 
> Unless you re-set the preferences back.
> 
> Which is a waste of time.
> 
> The two-menu method is the best we can come up with if the user wishes to
> determine, on the fly, the file format.

Wrong. Nothing is lost.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#73665

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 07:18 +0000
Message-ID	<mh2989$i5o$50@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73652

jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
1m36xty.ptg6tscooxklN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz

> Wrong. Nothing is lost.

Then you don't understand the fundamental implications of the preferences 
method.

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#73681

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-20 20:12 +1200
Message-ID	<1m370x9.13enc2bgxpx3nN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#73665

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36xty.ptg6tscooxklN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> 
> > Wrong. Nothing is lost.
> 
> Then you don't understand the fundamental implications of the preferences
> method.

Please do explain it to me. I can switch formats at a menu
command/keyboard shortcut, and thus have appropriate Save dialog
actions.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#73727

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:14 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150714109424%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73665

In article <mh2989$i5o$50@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36xty.ptg6tscooxklN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> 
> > Wrong. Nothing is lost.
> 
> Then you don't understand the fundamental implications of the preferences 
> method.

There is no such thing as a "preferences method", and you certainly do
not understand what "preferences" mean, nor anything that we have been
repeatedly telling you.

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#73741

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:34 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkh3iFg4haU12@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73665

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36xty.ptg6tscooxklN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
>
>> Wrong. Nothing is lost.
>
> Then you don't understand the fundamental implications of the preferences 
> method.

You are projecting. It is *you* who do not understand how things work,
clearly.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73743

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:36 +0000
Message-ID	<mh32ta$c69$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73741

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
cpkh3iFg4haU12@mid.individual.net

> You are projecting. It is *you* who do not understand how things work,
> clearly.

Then explain how, using the suggested preferences method, how one
would save as, for example, a Word document.

Answer: You can't (not without undoing the preferences).

Which was the point that woooshed right by Michelle, but I would have 
thought that you were more technically astute.

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#73759

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:57 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150757084136%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73743

In article <mh32ta$c69$1@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpkh3iFg4haU12@mid.individual.net
> 
> > You are projecting. It is *you* who do not understand how things work,
> > clearly.
> 
> Then explain how, using the suggested preferences method, how one
> would save as, for example, a Word document.
> 
> Answer: You can't (not without undoing the preferences).

Wrong.

> Which was the point that woooshed right by Michelle, but I would have 
> thought that you were more technically astute.

It didn't whoosh by me; it is totally incorrect.

If preferences are set to Plain Text and you want to save the document
as a Word document, here is what you do:

1.  Format > Make Rich Text
2.  Save
3.  In the Save As dialog, choose which version of Word you want to
save the document as in the File Format popup.
4.  Click the Save button.

If preferences are set to Rich Text and you want to save the document
as plain text, here is what you do:

1.  Format > Make Plain Text.
2.  Save
3.  (Optional) In the Save As dialog choose which plain text encoding
you want from the Plain Text Encoding popup.
4.  Click the Save button

However, in both situations, if preferences are set to the format you
want to save the document as, you skip step 1 in the above sequences.

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#73762

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 15:05 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkit9Fg4haU25@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73759

On 2015-04-20, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <mh32ta$c69$1@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
><ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> cpkh3iFg4haU12@mid.individual.net
>> 
>> > You are projecting. It is *you* who do not understand how things work,
>> > clearly.
>> 
>> Then explain how, using the suggested preferences method, how one
>> would save as, for example, a Word document.
>> 
>> Answer: You can't (not without undoing the preferences).
>
> Wrong.
>
>> Which was the point that woooshed right by Michelle, but I would have 
>> thought that you were more technically astute.
>
> It didn't whoosh by me; it is totally incorrect.
>
> If preferences are set to Plain Text and you want to save the document
> as a Word document, here is what you do:
>
> 1.  Format > Make Rich Text
> 2.  Save
> 3.  In the Save As dialog, choose which version of Word you want to
> save the document as in the File Format popup.
> 4.  Click the Save button.
>
> If preferences are set to Rich Text and you want to save the document
> as plain text, here is what you do:
>
> 1.  Format > Make Plain Text.
> 2.  Save
> 3.  (Optional) In the Save As dialog choose which plain text encoding
> you want from the Plain Text Encoding popup.
> 4.  Click the Save button
>
> However, in both situations, if preferences are set to the format you
> want to save the document as, you skip step 1 in the above sequences.

Yep.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73726

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:12 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150712504629%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73636

In article <mh27c5$i5o$39@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152336301780%michelle@michelle.org
> 
> > If you set preferences to Plain Text, you won't need "Format > Make
> > Plain Text" in that sequence.
> 
> Yes but.
> 
> You lose the ability to save to the other formats.

NO, YOU DO NOT LOSE THAT ABILITY!!!!

> Unless you re-set the preferences back.

No, you do not have to reset the preferences back!

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#73739

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:33 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkh2nFg4haU11@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73636

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152336301780%michelle@michelle.org
>
>> If you set preferences to Plain Text, you won't need "Format > Make
>> Plain Text" in that sequence.
>
> Yes but.
>
> You lose the ability to save to the other formats.
>
> Unless you re-set the preferences back.

Wrong. The Format > Make Plain|Rich Text menu command is *always*
available regardless of what format you specify in preferences as the
default format.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73925

From	Alan Baker <email@domain.com>
Date	2015-04-22 12:30 -0700
Message-ID	<mh8st5$739$1@news.datemas.de>
In reply to	#73636

On 2015-04-20 06:46:29 +0000, Adam H. Kerman said:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152336301780%michelle@michelle.org
> 
>> If you set preferences to Plain Text, you won't need "Format > Make
>> Plain Text" in that sequence.
> 
> Yes but.
> 
> You lose the ability to save to the other formats.
> 
> Unless you re-set the preferences back.
> 
> Which is a waste of time.
> 
> The two-menu method is the best we can come up with if the user wishes to
> determine, on the fly, the file format.

You are...

...yet again...

...utterly wrong.

Set the preferences for new documents to plain text, and...

GASP!

...the Format menu now contains the command "Make Rich Text"...

...which, if invoked by an intelligent person, once again allows you to 
save into all those formats that TextEdit understands and which 
maintain the...

...wait for it...

...FORMATTING!

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#73934

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2015-04-23 09:19 +1200
Message-ID	<230420150919341276%YourName@YourISP.com>
In reply to	#73925

In article <mh8st5$739$1@news.datemas.de>, Alan Baker
<email@domain.com> wrote:
> 
<snip>
> 
> Set the preferences for new documents to plain text, and...
> 
> GASP!
> 
> ...the Format menu now contains the command "Make Rich Text"...
> 
> ...which, if invoked by an intelligent person, once again allows you to 
> save into all those formats that TextEdit understands and which 
> maintain the...
> 
> ...wait for it...
> 
> ...FORMATTING!

Yeah, but it's frustrating having to delete all the $ and £ symbols
from the the *rich* text document.   ;-)

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#73737

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:32 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkh0eFg4haU10@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73627

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152257039783%michelle@michelle.org
>
>> It is not what happens at all, and it has repeatedly been explained to
>> you.  Explaining it one more time would serve no useful purpose because
>> you either can't understand or deliberately refuse to understand.
>
> What I understand is that I will advise the user save a file *to* TEXT 
> using the "Format" sequence, namely: Format > Make Plain Text, File > Save
>
> When the user wishes to save *as" another format, I'll advise they use a 
> different sequence, namely: File > Save > File Format > {other formats}
>
> It would be nice to know the logic inherent in these two differently 
> named menus which essentially do the same thing.

There is no such thing as File > Save > File Format > {other formats}!

Get this through your incredibly thick head:

There are only two formats with respect to TextEdit: plain text, and
rich text. The format menu command does *not* save a file. All it does
is change the way TextEdit treats the open document in memory. For plain
text files, for example, the tab bar and styling controls are hidden in
the document window, and options to save the file in rich text format
are hidden in the Save window. TextEdit has a preference setting that
allows you to specify the format (plain or rich text) to use for new
documents. If that preference setting is set to rich text, and you
create a new document, the document will be treated as a rich text
document, which means if you want to save a RTF, all you need to do is
save it! There is no reason to issue a Format command if you want rich
text since it's *already* rich text! And in fact, the Format menu will
not allow you to set it to rich text since it already *is* rich text!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73750

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:49 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150749256373%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73737

In article <cpkh0eFg4haU10@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> There is no such thing as File > Save > File Format > {other formats}!

Actually, in the Save As dialog for Rich Text documents there is a File
Format popup that allows you to save as a Rich Text document, HTML
file, various MS Word documents, etc.  That is what he is referring to.

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#73763

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 15:04 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkirfFg4haU24@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73750

On 2015-04-20, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <cpkh0eFg4haU10@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> There is no such thing as File > Save > File Format > {other formats}!
>
> Actually, in the Save As dialog for Rich Text documents there is a File
> Format popup that allows you to save as a Rich Text document, HTML
> file, various MS Word documents, etc.  That is what he is referring to.

While that's true, he's still missing the entire concept of the Format
menu command!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73533

From	dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson)
Date	2015-04-20 14:58 +1200
Message-ID	<1m36mic.1tmh537z93w6cN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>
In reply to	#73529

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> 190420152233070791nospamospam@nospam.invalid
> 
> >> And that saves an ASCII text file?
> > 
> > if you set the app to text it does.
> > 
> > are you even reading what people write??
> 
> Everyone says that TextEdit can save ASCII text.
> I'm fine with that.
> 
> If someone could just answer this question, we'd be done with this thread.

They already did, at least three or four times.

TextEdit defaults to Rich Text Format for new documents. You can change
its default for new documents to Plain Text, but you probably don't want
to fiddle with preferences as it isn't your Mac.

Once you have a new document window, you can change the mode for that
document without affecting the application default, by clicking on the
Format menu and choosing Make Plain Text (or Make Rich Text to go back
to rich mode again).

Once you have the document in plain text mode, you can save a plain text
file using File > Save. (The Save As dialog then offers a choice of
various plain text formats, including UTF-16, UTF-8 and various 8-bit
options with different character sets.)

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#73563

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 03:56 +0000
Message-ID	<mh1tcl$i5o$6@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73533

dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote in message
1m36mic.1tmh537z93w6cNMon, 20 Apr 2015 14:58:00 +1200empson@actrix.gen.nz

> They already did, at least three or four times.

Actually, only nospam mentioned that it was in the preferences and not in
the Save As dialog box, which, when I saw that, I changed it for the user 
(which may or may not be a good thing if it didn't just *add* the option).

Only after I had changed it, did Jolly Roger mention the same steps.

Nobody else (IIRC) mentioned that you have to unhide a hidden option, just
to get the default text editor to save as ASCII text.

There may be a downside to this though, which is that it may be that the 
default text editor, when allowed to save as ASCII text, may be disabled
from saving in any other format (which would be idiotic - but I'll have
to check when I have access to the Macintosh again tomorrow).

> TextEdit defaults to Rich Text Format for new documents. You can change
> its default for new documents to Plain Text, but you probably don't want
> to fiddle with preferences as it isn't your Mac.

I only belatedly realized, from something nospam said, that by adding
the option to save ASCII text, may have concurrently *disabled* the option
to "Save As", which would be a dumb thing, IMHO, if Apple set things up
that way. I'll have to check tomorrow - and - if that's the case, I'll
have to re-hide the hidden option.

But, if that's the case, it'd plain dumb because that means you can do
one or the other, by flipping a few switches, but that would mean there
simply isn't a Save As dialog that includes both.

I'll have to check tomorrow if that's the case.

> Once you have a new document window, you can change the mode for that
> document without affecting the application default, by clicking on the
> Format menu and choosing Make Plain Text (or Make Rich Text to go back
> to rich mode again).

That's a very odd way to do it, if I understand you correctly.
You save as the wrong format, and then you format the wrong format to the 
right format?

But, interestingly, if what nospam intimated is correct (that you can't
save as ASCII text *or* something else), then that oddball method may be 
the best method I can offer this Macintosh user. 

> Once you have the document in plain text mode, you can save a plain text
> file using File > Save. (The Save As dialog then offers a choice of
> various plain text formats, including UTF-16, UTF-8 and various 8-bit
> options with different character sets.)

Oh oh. That's bad news. That's what nospam intimated. So, if I understand
you correctly, this user can't save ASCII text and still have the option 
to save as the other formats. That's bad. Very bad. (dumb actually).

So, that means that tomorrow, I'll have to unset the option I set for
this Macintosh user, and then tell the user that they have to save first
into the wrong format, and then format into the right format (I'll have
to test if ASCII text is one of the available right formats though).

I'll test this tomorrow and report back - but this is sure way (way way)
more complex than it needs to be.

It should be as simple as "Save As" having the choice of "ASCII text" as
one of the options (along with the others).

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#73568

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:19 +0000
Message-ID	<cpjd3dF7dq8U6@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73563

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote in message
> 1m36mic.1tmh537z93w6cNMon, 20 Apr 2015 14:58:00 +1200empson@actrix.gen.nz
>
>> They already did, at least three or four times.
>
> Actually, only nospam mentioned that it was in the preferences and not in
> the Save As dialog box, which, when I saw that, I changed it for the user 
> (which may or may not be a good thing if it didn't just *add* the option).
>
> Only after I had changed it, did Jolly Roger mention the same steps.

No, I mentioned another much simpler way, and you flatly ignored it,
because you want to troll.

> Nobody else (IIRC) mentioned that you have to unhide a hidden option, just
> to get the default text editor to save as ASCII text.

Wrong. As I already told you, all you have to do is choose Format > Make
Plain Text before saving. No preferences need to be changed.

>> Once you have a new document window, you can change the mode for that
>> document without affecting the application default, by clicking on the
>> Format menu and choosing Make Plain Text (or Make Rich Text to go back
>> to rich mode again).
>
> That's a very odd way to do it, if I understand you correctly.
> You save as the wrong format, and then you format the wrong format to the 
> right format?

No, idiot. You create a new document, type some text, choose Format >
Make Plain Text (or Format > Make Rich Text if you wish) and then save
it. Only one save. Simple.

> But, interestingly, if what nospam intimated is correct (that you can't
> save as ASCII text *or* something else), then that oddball method may be 
> the best method I can offer this Macintosh user. 

He said no such thing, and you are wrong.

>> Once you have the document in plain text mode, you can save a plain text
>> file using File > Save. (The Save As dialog then offers a choice of
>> various plain text formats, including UTF-16, UTF-8 and various 8-bit
>> options with different character sets.)
>
> Oh oh. That's bad news. That's what nospam intimated. So, if I understand
> you correctly, this user can't save ASCII text and still have the option 
> to save as the other formats. That's bad. Very bad. (dumb actually).

Wrong. You can change the format to plain or rich text any time you want
and save the document accordingly.

> So, that means that tomorrow, I'll have to unset the option I set for
> this Macintosh user, and then tell the user that they have to save first
> into the wrong format, and then format into the right format (I'll have
> to test if ASCII text is one of the available right formats though).

You shouldn't have changed his preferences to begin with since it's not
your computer. If you had bothered to read my instructions, you'd have
known that simply choosing Format > Make Plain Text was all that you
needed to do before saving the document.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73581

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:43 +0000
Message-ID	<mh2053$i5o$10@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73568

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
cpjd3dF7dq8U6@mid.individual.net

> No, I mentioned another much simpler way, and you flatly ignored it,
> because you want to troll.

I think I *belatedly* understand the highly unintuitive use model that 
Mac users apparently endure in order to have both the option of saving 
to ASCII text and the option of Saving As other formats, at the same 
time, from the default text editor.

These Mac users either:
a. Temporarily save to the wrong format, and then convert the file to 
   the desired format, or, the Mac users...
b. Temporarily unhide the "Save To ASCII" option in the preferences, 
   then they save the file to ASCII, and then they re-hide the ASCII 
   option in the preferences.

Those are the *only* two ways that have been suggested for using the 
default text editor. Of those two methods, yes, I agree with you.

Option (a) is clearly simpler than option (b).

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#73585

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:48 +0000
Message-ID	<cpjeorF7dq8U13@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73581

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjd3dF7dq8U6@mid.individual.net
>
>> No, I mentioned another much simpler way, and you flatly ignored it,
>> because you want to troll.
>
> I think I *belatedly* understand the highly unintuitive use model that 
> Mac users apparently endure in order to have both the option of saving 
> to ASCII text and the option of Saving As other formats, at the same 
> time, from the default text editor.
>
> These Mac users either:
> a. Temporarily save to the wrong format, and then convert the file to 
>    the desired format, or, the Mac users...
> b. Temporarily unhide the "Save To ASCII" option in the preferences, 
>    then they save the file to ASCII, and then they re-hide the ASCII 
>    option in the preferences.
>
> Those are the *only* two ways that have been suggested for using the 
> default text editor. Of those two methods, yes, I agree with you.
>
> Option (a) is clearly simpler than option (b).

You are fucking dense. That's *not* what I told you to do. I didn't tell
you to save the document once in the wrong format and then again in the
right format. You made that shit up yourself in a lame attempt to make
things seem more complicated than they really are. 

All you need to do is:

1. Choose Format > Make Plain Text (or Make Rich Text).
2. Save the document.

No conversion is needed. No preference settings are needed. Nothing
unintuitive about it, considering TextEdit is designed primarily for
rich text editing.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

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