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Encourating Others to Backup!

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  Encourating Others to Backup! TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2014-06-19 20:20 -0500
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> - 2014-06-19 18:57 -0700
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-20 18:35 +1200
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-06-20 08:03 -0400
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-06-20 03:19 +0000
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-06-20 05:23 +0000
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2014-06-20 17:47 +1000
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2014-06-20 07:25 -0500
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2014-06-20 16:11 +0000
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2014-06-20 15:05 -0400
          Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-21 12:09 +1200
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-21 12:00 +0200
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-06-20 16:18 +0000
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-06-20 19:28 +0000
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! briang@panix.com (Brian Gordon) - 2014-06-20 19:44 +0000
          Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-06-20 22:16 +0000
            Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2014-06-21 01:12 +0000
              Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-21 12:48 +0200
                Re: Encourating Others to Backup! dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2014-06-22 02:05 +1200
                Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2014-06-21 13:20 -0400
                  Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-21 18:22 +0100
                    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2014-06-21 13:26 -0400
                      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-21 21:53 +0100
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-21 10:06 +0200
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Rick Blaine <boss@cafeamericain.ma> - 2014-06-20 09:39 -0400
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> - 2014-06-20 18:30 -0700
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2014-06-21 02:13 -0700
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-21 12:50 +0200
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! "Mr. Strat" <mrstrat@nospam.gmail.com> - 2014-06-20 07:08 -0700
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-21 12:12 +1200
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2014-06-21 02:14 -0700
          Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-06-21 09:15 -0400
            Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2014-06-21 06:43 -0700
          Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-22 10:36 +1200
            Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Rick Blaine <boss@cafeamericain.ma> - 2014-06-21 20:05 -0400
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-21 19:18 +0200
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-06-20 16:17 +0000
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2014-06-20 16:46 +0000
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-06-20 17:01 +0000
          Re: Encourating Others to Backup! "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2014-06-21 01:40 +0000
            Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-21 14:07 +1200
              Re: Encourating Others to Backup! "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2014-06-21 19:52 +0000
            Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-06-21 04:39 +0000
              Re: Encourating Others to Backup! "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2014-06-21 20:06 +0000
            Re: Encourating Others to Backup! "M. John Matlaw" <nouser@invalid.com> - 2014-06-21 12:28 -0400
    Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2014-06-20 12:31 -0400
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2014-06-20 16:39 -0500
        Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-21 12:14 +1200
      Re: Encourating Others to Backup! Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> - 2014-06-20 18:33 -0700

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#61162 — Encourating Others to Backup!

I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
do not backup their computers. So far I haven't been very successful at 
convincing them to do so. I can remember encountering a man at the 
Genius Bar at an Apple Store who had experienced a hard drive failure 
and was being told that for a few thousand dollars a recovery 
specializing organization might recover some of the data. But it seems 
that people don't understand the importance of backing up until a 
catastrophe strikes. So what are effective means of convincing someone 
of the value of backing up?

I say all of this as I have had no success in convincing my very own 
sister in this regard.


-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

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#61168

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> writes:

> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
> do not backup their computers. So far I haven't been very successful at 
> convincing them to do so. I can remember encountering a man at the 
> Genius Bar at an Apple Store who had experienced a hard drive failure 
> and was being told that for a few thousand dollars a recovery 
> specializing organization might recover some of the data. But it seems 
> that people don't understand the importance of backing up until a 
> catastrophe strikes. So what are effective means of convincing someone 
> of the value of backing up?
> 
> I say all of this as I have had no success in convincing my very own 
> sister in this regard.

"Would you care if you lost all your files if your disk died tomorrow?
If so, you must do backups.  Every disk will die eventually -- some
sooner, some later."

Then of course there's the other usage of backups to get back a file
that you delete accidentally.  It's perhaps harder to convince someone
that they will eventually, by mistake, delete a file they need.

Martin

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#61180

In article <mylhsscphb.fsf@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>, Martin Frost me at
invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> writes:
> > 
> > I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
> > do not backup their computers. So far I haven't been very successful at 
> > convincing them to do so. I can remember encountering a man at the 
> > Genius Bar at an Apple Store who had experienced a hard drive failure 
> > and was being told that for a few thousand dollars a recovery 
> > specializing organization might recover some of the data. But it seems 
> > that people don't understand the importance of backing up until a 
> > catastrophe strikes. So what are effective means of convincing someone 
> > of the value of backing up?
> > 
> > I say all of this as I have had no success in convincing my very own 
> > sister in this regard.
> 
> "Would you care if you lost all your files if your disk died tomorrow?
> If so, you must do backups.  Every disk will die eventually -- some
> sooner, some later."
> 
> Then of course there's the other usage of backups to get back a file
> that you delete accidentally.  It's perhaps harder to convince someone
> that they will eventually, by mistake, delete a file they need.

I've never needed a backup - never had a failed hard drive (the
original one that came with this PowerMac and is still going well 16
years later) nor deleted a *needed* file by accident (deleted a few
that weren't that important by accident). I never bothered until fairly
recently and really only do so because it would be a bit of a nuisance
to have to redo some of the work documents, but could be done if I had
to.

The real issue comes with all these people who store things like
personal photos or home video on their computer ... documents can
always be recreated, even if they aren't exactly the same, but once
those photos or movies of baby Goober's first steps are gone, you'll
never get them back.

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#61190

On 2014.06.20, 02:35 , Your Name wrote:
> In article <mylhsscphb.fsf@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>, Martin Frost me at
> invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
>> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that
>>> do not backup their computers. So far I haven't been very successful at
>>> convincing them to do so. I can remember encountering a man at the
>>> Genius Bar at an Apple Store who had experienced a hard drive failure
>>> and was being told that for a few thousand dollars a recovery
>>> specializing organization might recover some of the data. But it seems
>>> that people don't understand the importance of backing up until a
>>> catastrophe strikes. So what are effective means of convincing someone
>>> of the value of backing up?
>>>
>>> I say all of this as I have had no success in convincing my very own
>>> sister in this regard.
>>
>> "Would you care if you lost all your files if your disk died tomorrow?
>> If so, you must do backups.  Every disk will die eventually -- some
>> sooner, some later."
>>
>> Then of course there's the other usage of backups to get back a file
>> that you delete accidentally.  It's perhaps harder to convince someone
>> that they will eventually, by mistake, delete a file they need.
>
> I've never needed a backup - never had a failed hard drive (the
> original one that came with this PowerMac and is still going well 16
> years later)

Statistical outliers do not make the statistical realities of the rest 
of the disk drive population any less real.

So yes, you've always needed a backup, you've just never had to do a 
disaster recovery for that particular disk.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.

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#61177

In message <c0hgjbFmscnU1@mid.individual.net> 
  TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
> do not backup their computers. So far I haven't been very successful at 
> convincing them to do so. I can remember encountering a man at the 
> Genius Bar at an Apple Store who had experienced a hard drive failure 
> and was being told that for a few thousand dollars a recovery 
> specializing organization might recover some of the data. But it seems 
> that people don't understand the importance of backing up until a 
> catastrophe strikes. So what are effective means of convincing someone 
> of the value of backing up?

Delete their photographs.

> I say all of this as I have had no success in convincing my very own 
> sister in this regard.

Did you delete all her photographs?

-- 
I CANNOT ABSOLVE SINS Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF14

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#61179

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
> do not backup their computers.

<nitpick>

You mean "back up", not "backup". The former is the verb you are 
meaning to use; the latter is a noun.

I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.

See what I mean?

</nitpick>

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

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#61182

In article <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me>,
 me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) wrote:

> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> > I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
> > do not backup their computers.
> 
> <nitpick>
> 
> You mean "back up", not "backup". The former is the verb you are 
> meaning to use; the latter is a noun.
> 
> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
> 
> See what I mean?
> 
> </nitpick>

T is fashioning a usage for the 21st Century, it could catch on.

-- 
dorayme

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#61191

On 2014-06-20 05:23:07 +0000, Király said:

> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
>> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that
>> do not backup their computers.
> 
> <nitpick>
> 
> You mean "back up", not "backup". The former is the verb you are
> meaning to use; the latter is a noun.
> 
> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
> 
> See what I mean?
> 
> </nitpick>

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary definition of "backkup"....

"a copy of computer data (as a file or the contents of a hard drive); 
also :  the act or an instance of making a backup"


-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

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#61197

In article <c0inh4F3ooU1@mid.individual.net>,
TaliesinSoft  <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
>On 2014-06-20 05:23:07 +0000, Király said:
>
>> You mean "back up", not "backup". The former is the verb you are
>> meaning to use; the latter is a noun.
>
>From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary definition of "backkup"....
>
>"a copy of computer data (as a file or the contents of a hard drive); 
>also :  the act or an instance of making a backup"


If you're suggesting that an "act or instance" is using the term
"backup" as a verb, it isn't. They mean uses such as, "The backup 
ran right on schedule"--which is just another way of saying, "the 
act of making a backup ran right on schedule."

As it says at the top of that page:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backup

"backup: noun, often attributive"

Noun, not verb.

It's just like "login/log in." One's a noun, one's a verb.

"Backup/back up" is one of my pet peeves. In fact, if the Fire Phone
uses it correctly, you can thank me. If it doesn't, that means some
product folks slipped in some bad usage after I last had a go at the
text strings. ;-)


Patty

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#61218

On 14-06-20 08:25, TaliesinSoft wrote:

> From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary definition of "backkup"....
> 

Nop... it is what a truck does when it emits the "beep beep" sound. :-)

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#61266

In article <53a48617$0$7241$c3e8da3$76a7c58f@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 14-06-20 08:25, TaliesinSoft wrote:
> 
> > From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary definition of "backkup"....
> 
> Nop... it is what a truck does when it emits the "beep beep" sound. :-)

The sound is also what what of the local birds has learned to do at
5:30am in the morning.  :-\  The bird, presuambly the same one, can
also mimic the chirp of a car alarm being turned on / off.

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#61303

On 2014-06-20, TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-20 05:23:07 +0000, Király said:
>
>> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
>>> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that
>>> do not backup their computers.
>> 
>> <nitpick>
>> 
>> You mean "back up", not "backup". The former is the verb you are
>> meaning to use; the latter is a noun.
>> 
>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
>> 
>> See what I mean?
>> 
>> </nitpick>
>
> From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary definition of "backkup"....
>
> "a copy of computer data (as a file or the contents of a hard drive); 
> also :  the act or an instance of making a backup"

An insight can possibly be found here:

<http://crash.com/fun/texts/vaxen-dont.html>

'the apprentice's son had an IBM PC and he quickly whispered that "backup"
meant making a copy of a program borrowed from a friend and why was I
doing that? Sigh'


-- 
You can't look at a glass as half full or half empty if it's overflowing.

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#61200

On 2014-06-20, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
>> I'm always somewhat boggled by the number of persons I encounter that 
>> do not backup their computers.
>
><nitpick>
>
> You mean "back up", not "backup". The former is the verb you are 
> meaning to use; the latter is a noun.
>
> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
>
> See what I mean?
>
></nitpick>

Sheesh... here we go again...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#61222

In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:

> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.

That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
universal.

-- 
W is for WINNIE embedded in ice
X is for XERXES devoured by mice

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#61224

In article <slrnlq92qr.kdq.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
>  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
>
>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
>
>That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
>universal.
>

Unless you happen to speak American English ...

-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| Brian Gordon     -->briang@panix.com<--     brian dot gordon at cox dot net |
+ brianggordon@hotmail.com   Bass: Lexington "Main Street Harmonizers" chorus +
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#61251

In message <lo22v5$9nc$1@reader1.panix.com> 
  Brian Gordon <briang@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnlq92qr.kdq.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
> Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
>>  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
>>
>>That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
>>universal.

> Unless you happen to speak American English ...

Which I do. It is *not* a universal distinction.

-- 
Truth is seen through keyholes

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#61273

In article <slrnlq9cme.o58.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <lo22v5$9nc$1@reader1.panix.com> 
>  Brian Gordon <briang@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrnlq92qr.kdq.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
>> Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
>>>  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
>>>
>>>That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
>>>universal.
>
>> Unless you happen to speak American English ...
>
>Which I do. It is *not* a universal distinction.


I can't speak to "universal," but the same distinction is also the proper 
style in British English:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/back-something-up

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/backup

The standard U.S. style guides such as Chicago also make that distinction. 
And since this is a Mac newsgroup, I'll mention that so does Apple's own 
style guide. I know of no U.S. style guide that uses "backup" as a verb.


Patty

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#61314

On 2014-06-21, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>
> In article <slrnlq9cme.o58.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
> Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>In message <lo22v5$9nc$1@reader1.panix.com> 
>>  Brian Gordon <briang@panix.com> wrote:
>>> In article <slrnlq92qr.kdq.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
>>> Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>>In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
>>>>  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
>>>>
>>>>That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
>>>>universal.
>>
>>> Unless you happen to speak American English ...
>>
>>Which I do. It is *not* a universal distinction.
>
>
> I can't speak to "universal," but the same distinction is also the proper 
> style in British English:
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/back-something-up
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/backup

Hmm, can anyone make sense of this example sentence from the second URL?

"Software upgrades routine backup and restore procedures will also take
much less time."

Of course it might have been pulled off Usenet... :-)

> The standard U.S. style guides such as Chicago also make that distinction. 
> And since this is a Mac newsgroup, I'll mention that so does Apple's own 
> style guide. I know of no U.S. style guide that uses "backup" as a verb.



-- 
You can't look at a glass as half full or half empty if it's overflowing.

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#61316

Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> On 2014-06-21, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
> >
> > In article <slrnlq9cme.o58.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
> > Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >>In message <lo22v5$9nc$1@reader1.panix.com> 
> >>  Brian Gordon <briang@panix.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <slrnlq92qr.kdq.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
> >>> Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >>>>In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
> >>>>  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
> >>>>
> >>>>That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
> >>>>universal.
> >>
> >>> Unless you happen to speak American English ...
> >>
> >>Which I do. It is *not* a universal distinction.
> >
> >
> > I can't speak to "universal," but the same distinction is also the proper
> > style in British English:
> >
> > http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/back-something-up
> >
> > http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/backup
> 
> Hmm, can anyone make sense of this example sentence from the second URL?
> 
> "Software upgrades routine backup and restore procedures will also take
> much less time."
> 
> Of course it might have been pulled off Usenet... :-)

I think it is missing a comma after "upgrades". That at least scans. I
can only assume that is what was intended.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#61332

In article <mg4g7b-fgh.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
 Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> On 2014-06-21, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
> >
> > In article <slrnlq9cme.o58.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
> > Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >>In message <lo22v5$9nc$1@reader1.panix.com> 
> >>  Brian Gordon <briang@panix.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <slrnlq92qr.kdq.g.kreme@amelia.local>,
> >>> Lewis  <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >>>>In message <lo0gfr$3tk$1@dont-email.me> 
> >>>>  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I always back up; I have two external drives with a backup on each.
> >>>>
> >>>>That is a distinction that exists for you, it is certainly not
> >>>>universal.
> >>
> >>> Unless you happen to speak American English ...
> >>
> >>Which I do. It is *not* a universal distinction.
> >
> >
> > I can't speak to "universal," but the same distinction is also the proper 
> > style in British English:
> >
> > http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/back-something-up
> >
> > http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/backup
> 
> Hmm, can anyone make sense of this example sentence from the second URL?
> 
> "Software upgrades routine backup and restore procedures will also take
> much less time."
> 
> Of course it might have been pulled off Usenet... :-)

I think "upgrades" should be "upgrade's", referring to the routine 
backup and restore procedures that are part of the software upgrade 
process.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

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