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Re: Kids react to old computers

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  Re: Kids react to old computers Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 06:14 +0200
    Re: Kids react to old computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-06 01:33 -0400
      Re: Kids react to old computers Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-05 23:22 -0700
        Re: Kids react to old computers JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2014-06-06 02:36 -0400
          Re: Kids react to old computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-06 02:41 -0400
            Re: Kids react to old computers Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 13:21 +0200
              Re: Kids react to old computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-07 10:13 -0400
          Re: Kids react to old computers Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-06 00:00 -0700
          Re: Kids react to old computers Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 13:20 +0200
            Re: Kids react to old computers "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 11:52 +1000
              Re: Kids react to old computers Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-06-08 04:08 +0000
                Re: Kids react to old computers "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 07:48 +1000
              Re: Kids react to old computers Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-07 23:43 -0700
                Re: Kids react to old computers "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 19:36 +1000
                  Re: Kids react to old computers Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-08 03:09 -0700
                    Re: Kids react to old computers "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 07:15 +1000
            Re: Kids react to old computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-07 10:13 -0400
      Re: Kids react to old computers Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 13:18 +0200
        Re: Kids react to old computers Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-07 18:03 +0100
          Re: Kids react to old computers News <News@Group.Post> - 2014-06-07 14:08 -0400
        Re: Kids react to old computers "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 11:51 +1000
        Re: Kids react to old computers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-07 13:46 -0400
    Re: Kids react to old computers Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-06-06 18:36 +1200

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#60321 — Re: Kids react to old computers

nospam writes:

> because they're used to the way new products work and have never seen
> the old products.

That doesn't make old products better or worse.

Odd that kids' unfamiliarity with old products is held up as proof that the
old products were unfriendly and inferior, whereas adults' unfamiliarity with
new products is held up as proof that adults are out of touch.

> no they haven't. not even remotely true.

I use text interfaces every day, sometimes even in preferece to GUIs. It's
faster.

> babies who can't even speak can figure out how to use a tablet. good
> luck trying to teach them how to use a command line.

Adults can build bridges and locomotives. Good luck teaching babies to do
that.

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#60326

In article <ltf2p91225aeq40ieq388rr156klp3ob7a@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I use text interfaces every day, sometimes even in preferece to GUIs. It's
> faster.

you might think a text interface is faster, but it isn't.

there have been several studies that measured just how long various
tasks took with a keyboard and a mouse.

people consistently said they were faster with the keyboard, but
invariably, the clock showed otherwise, even when the tasks were
specifically designed to be well suited to a text interface.

> > babies who can't even speak can figure out how to use a tablet. good
> > luck trying to teach them how to use a command line.
> 
> Adults can build bridges and locomotives. Good luck teaching babies to do
> that.

not even remotely similar.

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#60329

In article <060620140133496141%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > I use text interfaces every day, sometimes even in preferece to GUIs. It's
> > faster.
> 
> you might think a text interface is faster, but it isn't.
> 
> there have been several studies that measured just how long various
> tasks took with a keyboard and a mouse.

I think mixed use is the easiest. In another window I'm editting a C program and 
I use the mouse, mouse+keyboard, mouse on menubar, Command+keyboard. The actual 
code is typed in rather than using the mouse on the keyboard viewer, but the 
mouse+character viewer is the easiest way to enter things like Greek letters.

-- 
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Icke's razor: Given two equally plausible explanations, choose the weirder.

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#60332

On 14-06-06 02:22, Siri Crews wrote:

> I think mixed use is the easiest. In another window I'm editting a C program and 
> I use the mouse, mouse+keyboard, mouse on menubar, Command+keyboard. The actual 
> code is typed in rather than using the mouse on the keyboard viewer, but the 
> mouse+character viewer is the easiest way to enter things like Greek letters.


It is a constant need to switch between keyboard and mouse/trackpad that
is counter productive. If you can spend much time on keyboard and only
need to use mouse from time to time, it works. If you spend much time on
mouse and rarely on keyboard (browsing, graphics programmes etc) it
works. But hybrid ones where you have to constantly switch, then you
lose productivity.


A good example was the move by PSION from keyboard only on its Series 3
PDS to mixture of keyboard and pen for its Series 5. Switching from
keyboard to Pen was a real pain when you are holding the device.

In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the screen, a
switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand need not
move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the device.
(or move arms).

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#60334

In article <53916177$0$17195$c3e8da3$dd9697d2@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> It is a constant need to switch between keyboard and mouse/trackpad that
> is counter productive. If you can spend much time on keyboard and only
> need to use mouse from time to time, it works. If you spend much time on
> mouse and rarely on keyboard (browsing, graphics programmes etc) it
> works. But hybrid ones where you have to constantly switch, then you
> lose productivity.

this is a common myth but it's not true.

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#60412

nospam writes:

> this is a common myth but it's not true.

Why do people type text into Word instead of clicking a mouse on a graphic
keyboard, then?

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#60453

In article <3dt5p9daqqie5eg00h2bi53g2ghgn34bva@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why do people type text into Word instead of clicking a mouse on a graphic
> keyboard, then?

that's a stretch, but sometimes they do click on a graphic keyboard for
special symbols.

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#60335

In article <53916177$0$17195$c3e8da3$dd9697d2@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 14-06-06 02:22, Siri Crews wrote:
> 
> > I think mixed use is the easiest. In another window I'm editting a C 
> > program and 
> > I use the mouse, mouse+keyboard, mouse on menubar, Command+keyboard. The 
> > actual 
> > code is typed in rather than using the mouse on the keyboard viewer, but 
> > the 
> > mouse+character viewer is the easiest way to enter things like Greek 
> > letters.
> 
> 
> It is a constant need to switch between keyboard and mouse/trackpad that
> is counter productive. If you can spend much time on keyboard and only
> need to use mouse from time to time, it works. If you spend much time on
> mouse and rarely on keyboard (browsing, graphics programmes etc) it
> works. But hybrid ones where you have to constantly switch, then you
> lose productivity.

I did when penance time on vi. When I want to move the cursor quickly or select 
text, the mouse is just a few inches away. One of my problems going from O29 
edittor on the Cyber 170 console to vi was having to scroll line by line on the 
24x80 screen.

-- 
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Icke's razor: Given two equally plausible explanations, choose the weirder.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#60411

JF Mezei writes:

> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the screen, a
> switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand need not
> move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the device.
> (or move arms).

I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers via SSH
in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is slow, even
with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the major
problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time text
entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an advantage
than a disadvantage.

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#60438

"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com...
> JF Mezei writes:
>
>> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the screen, a
>> switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand need not
>> move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the device.
>> (or move arms).
>
> I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers via 
> SSH
> in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is slow, even
> with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the major
> problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time text
> entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an 
> advantage
> than a disadvantage.

And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing anything. 

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#60450

On 2014-06-08, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com...
>> JF Mezei writes:
>>
>>> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the
>>> screen, a switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the
>>> hand need not move much and you need not necessarily change how you
>>> hold the device.  (or move arms).
>>
>> I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers
>> via SSH in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure
>> is slow, even with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true
>> keyboard is the major problem. But these are exceptions, of course,
>> since most of the time text entry is limited on a mobile device and a
>> touchscreen is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.
>
> And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing anything. 

You can basically do that with any iOS application by tapping the
microphone button on the keyboard.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#60543

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote
>>> JF Mezei wrote

>>>> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the
>>>> screen, a switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because
>>>> the hand need not move much and you need not necessarily
>>>> change how you hold the device.  (or move arms).

>>> I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers
>>> via SSH in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure
>>> is slow, even with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true
>>> keyboard is the major problem. But these are exceptions, of course,
>>> since most of the time text entry is limited on a mobile device and a
>>> touchscreen is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

>> And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing anything.

> You can basically do that with any iOS application by
> tapping the microphone button on the keyboard.

Yes, that's what I was saying a bit cryptically. 

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#60466

In article <bvhtvtF33s6U2@mid.individual.net>,
 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com...
> > JF Mezei writes:
> >
> >> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the screen, a
> >> switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand need not
> >> move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the device.
> >> (or move arms).
> >
> > I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers via 
> > SSH
> > in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is slow, even
> > with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the major
> > problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time text
> > entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an 
> > advantage
> > than a disadvantage.
> 
> And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing anything. 

if open paren i plus 1 greater m close paren open brace new line indent m equals 
i plus 1 semicolon new line increase buffer (all one word) open paren m close 
paren semicolon new line undent close brace.

Yes, I can see how that would work out.

    if (i+1>m) {
        m = i+1;
        increaseBuffer(m);
    }

-- 
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Icke's razor: Given two equally plausible explanations, choose the weirder.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#60472

"Siri Crews" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:chine.bleu-C1EF0E.23433907062014@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <bvhtvtF33s6U2@mid.individual.net>,
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com...
>> > JF Mezei writes:
>> >
>> >> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the screen, 
>> >> a
>> >> switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand need 
>> >> not
>> >> move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the device.
>> >> (or move arms).
>> >
>> > I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers 
>> > via
>> > SSH
>> > in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is slow, 
>> > even
>> > with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the 
>> > major
>> > problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time 
>> > text
>> > entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an
>> > advantage
>> > than a disadvantage.
>>
>> And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing anything.
>
> if open paren i plus 1 greater m close paren open brace new line indent m 
> equals
> i plus 1 semicolon new line increase buffer (all one word) open paren m 
> close
> paren semicolon new line undent close brace.
>
> Yes, I can see how that would work out.
>
>    if (i+1>m) {
>        m = i+1;
>        increaseBuffer(m);
>    }

Only fools use that UI for code. 

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#60473

In article <bvip5pF86klU1@mid.individual.net>,
 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Siri Crews" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
> news:chine.bleu-C1EF0E.23433907062014@news.eternal-september.org...
> > In article <bvhtvtF33s6U2@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com...
> >> > JF Mezei writes:
> >> >
> >> >> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the screen, 
> >> >> a
> >> >> switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand need 
> >> >> not
> >> >> move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the device.
> >> >> (or move arms).
> >> >
> >> > I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers 
> >> > via
> >> > SSH
> >> > in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is slow, 
> >> > even
> >> > with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the 
> >> > major
> >> > problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time 
> >> > text
> >> > entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an
> >> > advantage
> >> > than a disadvantage.
> >>
> >> And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing anything.
> >
> > if open paren i plus 1 greater m close paren open brace new line indent m 
> > equals
> > i plus 1 semicolon new line increase buffer (all one word) open paren m 
> > close
> > paren semicolon new line undent close brace.
> >
> > Yes, I can see how that would work out.
> >
> >    if (i+1>m) {
> >        m = i+1;
> >        increaseBuffer(m);
> >    }
> 
> Only fools use that UI for code. 

So perhaps the best interface of mouse, menu, keyboard, and voice depends on the 
task at hand.

-- 
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Icke's razor: Given two equally plausible explanations, choose the weirder.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#60540

"Siri Crews" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:chine.bleu-D79421.03093408062014@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <bvip5pF86klU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Siri Crews" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:chine.bleu-C1EF0E.23433907062014@news.eternal-september.org...
>> > In article <bvhtvtF33s6U2@mid.individual.net>,
>> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com...
>> >> > JF Mezei writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> In the case of iPad and iPhone, because the keyboard is on the 
>> >> >> screen,
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> switch from touchscreen to keyboard is natural because the hand 
>> >> >> need
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> move much and you need not necessarily change how you hold the 
>> >> >> device.
>> >> >> (or move arms).
>> >> >
>> >> > I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers
>> >> > via
>> >> > SSH
>> >> > in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is 
>> >> > slow,
>> >> > even
>> >> > with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the
>> >> > major
>> >> > problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time
>> >> > text
>> >> > entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an
>> >> > advantage
>> >> > than a disadvantage.
>> >>
>> >> And the best UIs allow you to speak the text instead of typing 
>> >> anything.
>> >
>> > if open paren i plus 1 greater m close paren open brace new line indent 
>> > m
>> > equals
>> > i plus 1 semicolon new line increase buffer (all one word) open paren m
>> > close
>> > paren semicolon new line undent close brace.
>> >
>> > Yes, I can see how that would work out.
>> >
>> >    if (i+1>m) {
>> >        m = i+1;
>> >        increaseBuffer(m);
>> >    }
>>
>> Only fools use that UI for code.
>
> So perhaps the best interface of mouse, menu, keyboard, and voice depends 
> on the
> task at hand.

And its perfectly possible to allow the use of whatever is best for a 
particular task. 

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#60452

In article <59t5p9p55t8b1ku099ksf3ls3891ka5lfe@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

> I use my iGadgets occasionally for editing code or accessing servers via SSH
> in a pinch. It's immensely handy and convenient, but it sure is slow, even
> with apps that are well designed. The lack of a true keyboard is the major
> problem. But these are exceptions, of course, since most of the time text
> entry is limited on a mobile device and a touchscreen is more of an advantage
> than a disadvantage.

use a bluetooth keyboard.

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#60410

nospam writes:

> you might think a text interface is faster, but it isn't.

I know that it's faster. You can put multiple arguments and parameters on a
single command line, while typing with both hands, and this is at least an
order of magnitude more efficient than clicking on things with a mouse.

Similarly, a screenful of text communicates a lot more than a few pretty
icons.

> there have been several studies that measured just how long various
> tasks took with a keyboard and a mouse.

Which ones?

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#60424

In article <15t5p9ldevpkqpknls0ll050c12fhu1eet@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:

> nospam writes:
> 
> > you might think a text interface is faster, but it isn't.
> 
> I know that it's faster. You can put multiple arguments and parameters on a
> single command line, while typing with both hands, and this is at least an
> order of magnitude more efficient than clicking on things with a mouse.

No it isn't, because I'd have to memorise those commands, arguments,
and parameters first. Catch me wasting valuable brain cells doing
*that*.

-- 
"Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you
bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where 
bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc

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#60454

On 6/7/2014 1:03 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <15t5p9ldevpkqpknls0ll050c12fhu1eet@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
> <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> nospam writes:
>>
>> > you might think a text interface is faster, but it isn't.
>>
>> I know that it's faster. You can put multiple arguments and parameters
>> on a
>> single command line, while typing with both hands, and this is at
>> least an
>> order of magnitude more efficient than clicking on things with a mouse.
>
> No it isn't, because I'd have to memorise those commands, arguments,
> and parameters first. Catch me wasting valuable brain cells doing
> *that*.
>

Many companies put point-and-click GUIs in front of legacy customer 
facing systems to cope with workforce attitudinal deficits like that.

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