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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #50890 > unrolled thread

Newsreaders

Started byMichelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org>
First post2013-10-27 09:41 -0700
Last post2014-02-09 17:41 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 578 — 55 participants

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Contents

  Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-27 09:41 -0700
    Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 11:56 -0500
      Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-02-16 15:20 +0000
    Re: Newsreaders Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-27 13:01 -0400
      Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 12:36 -0500
        Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 14:41 -0500
          Re: Newsreaders snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk (Sn!pe) - 2013-10-27 19:58 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 15:05 -0500
              Re: Newsreaders snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk (Sn!pe) - 2013-10-27 20:42 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2013-10-28 10:23 +1100
      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-29 10:09 +0100
    Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-10-27 19:57 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-27 13:20 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> - 2013-10-27 14:04 -0700
          Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 16:10 -0500
            Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-27 14:35 -0700
              Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 16:39 -0500
                Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-27 15:30 -0700
          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 01:35 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-27 22:10 -0400
              Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 21:59 -0500
              Re: Newsreaders bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> - 2013-10-27 20:37 -0700
              Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-27 21:16 -0700
                Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 17:38 +1300
                  Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-27 21:49 -0700
                    Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 18:59 +1300
                      Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-28 00:28 -0700
                        Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 22:03 +1300
                Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-28 00:49 -0400
                  Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 19:01 +1300
                    Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-28 02:59 -0400
                  Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-28 00:50 -0700
                    Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-28 04:16 -0400
                    Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 22:03 +1300
                Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 12:36 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 17:34 +1300
                Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-28 00:49 -0400
                  Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 19:04 +1300
            Re: Newsreaders gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2013-10-27 19:18 -0700
            Re: Newsreaders bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> - 2013-10-27 20:34 -0700
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 03:48 +0000
        Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-10-27 21:50 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 16:57 -0500
          Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-27 16:04 -0700
            Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-10-27 23:24 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 12:41 +1300
                Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-10-28 15:51 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-29 05:28 +1300
                  Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 20:55 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-27 17:01 -0700
      Re: Newsreaders gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2013-10-27 19:16 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-28 08:21 -0500
    Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 10:58 +1300
    Re: Newsreaders M-M <nospam.m-m@ny.more> - 2013-10-27 19:24 -0400
      Re: Newsreaders Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-10-27 23:42 +0000
        Re: Newsreaders M-M <nospam.m-m@ny.more> - 2013-10-27 20:09 -0400
          Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 19:16 -0500
          Re: Newsreaders Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-10-28 00:16 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-28 08:11 -0500
            Re: Newsreaders Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-10-28 13:54 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-28 09:01 -0500
                Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-29 09:09 +1300
                  Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-28 20:44 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-29 09:53 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 10:27 +1300
                      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 04:50 +0100
                        Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 22:01 +1300
                          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 13:04 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-10-30 12:11 +0000
                              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 13:27 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 08:56 +1300
                        Re: Newsreaders "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2013-11-17 19:28 -0500
                Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-29 09:56 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 01:26 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 21:04 -0500
            Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 02:11 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-27 22:01 -0500
                Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 03:40 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-28 17:26 +1300
                    Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-28 08:17 -0500
                  Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-28 08:16 -0500
                    Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 13:39 +0000
                      Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-28 08:43 -0500
    Re: Newsreaders Ted Lee <tmplee@mr.net> - 2013-10-27 20:30 -0500
      Re: Newsreaders AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2013-10-28 11:02 -0400
    Re: Newsreaders TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2013-10-27 21:07 -0500
      Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-27 21:29 -0700
    Re: Newsreaders Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2013-10-28 00:48 -0400
      Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-28 15:16 +0000
    Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-28 16:01 +0100
    Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-28 15:16 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-10-28 15:21 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-28 08:31 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-28 08:57 -0700
          Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-29 05:25 +1300
          Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-29 09:22 +1300
          Re: Newsreaders Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-10-28 21:22 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-29 13:29 +1300
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-29 01:43 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-10-29 05:04 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-29 18:25 +1300
                    Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-29 01:33 -0400
                    Re: Newsreaders Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-10-29 05:37 +0000
                      Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-29 19:25 +1300
                        Re: Newsreaders Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-10-29 07:25 +0000
                          Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-29 04:07 -0400
                            Re: Newsreaders Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-10-29 09:00 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-29 17:01 +0000
                              Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 10:24 +1300
                                Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-30 14:39 +0000
                          Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-30 09:26 +1300
                    Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-29 21:35 +0000
                      Re: Newsreaders bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> - 2013-10-29 16:28 -0700
                        Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 13:33 +1300
                          Re: Newsreaders bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> - 2013-10-29 23:14 -0700
                            Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 21:43 +1300
                          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-30 12:39 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-30 14:39 +0000
                              Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-31 09:31 +1300
                            Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 08:52 +1300
                        Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-30 19:36 +1300
                          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-30 12:42 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-30 14:39 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-29 17:01 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-29 17:01 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-30 09:29 +1300
          Re: Newsreaders "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2013-10-30 16:44 -0400
            Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-30 23:22 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-10-31 13:15 +1300
    Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-28 21:37 +0100
      Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-28 14:17 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-28 22:20 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-28 23:01 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-28 16:27 -0700
      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-10-28 21:25 +0000
        Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-28 22:41 +0100
          Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-10-29 00:36 +0000
    Re: Newsreaders "J.P. Kuypers" <Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid> - 2013-10-29 10:10 +0100
      Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-29 08:36 -0500
        Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 10:25 +1300
      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 05:00 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-30 22:01 +1300
          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 13:14 +0100
            Re: Newsreaders Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-10-30 13:42 +0100
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 14:49 +0100
              Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 09:15 +1300
                Re: Newsreaders Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-10-30 22:32 +0100
                  Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-31 07:00 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-10-31 13:56 +0100
                      Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-31 14:24 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-10-31 19:19 +0100
                          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-31 21:30 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-10-31 17:37 -0400
                            Re: Newsreaders Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-10-31 23:00 +0100
                              Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-10-31 18:36 -0400
                              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-01 01:32 +0000
                              Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@6usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2013-11-01 10:39 -0500
                                Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-02 10:00 +1300
                            Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-01 16:43 -0500
                              Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-11-02 11:02 -0400
                      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-31 16:23 +0100
                        Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-31 10:41 -0500
                          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-31 17:09 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-31 11:02 -0700
                              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-31 21:34 +0000
                                Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-31 15:13 -0700
                              Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-01 10:52 +1300
                                Re: Newsreaders Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-31 15:14 -0700
                                  Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-01 14:08 +1300
                                Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-01 01:33 +0000
                                  Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-01 19:26 +1300
                          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-31 21:32 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-10-31 19:06 +0100
            Re: Newsreaders Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-30 07:45 -0500
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 14:48 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-10-30 13:54 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-30 15:05 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 09:15 +1300
              Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 09:15 +1300
          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-30 13:00 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 09:15 +1300
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-30 23:36 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 13:18 +1300
                  Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-31 07:09 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 20:51 +1300
                      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-31 09:29 +0100
                        Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-31 22:07 +1300
                          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-10-31 12:07 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-10-31 11:17 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-10-31 11:40 +0000
                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-10-31 16:12 +0000
                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! billy@MIX.COM - 2013-10-31 16:42 +0000
                              Re: Newsreaders =?UTF-8?Q?=21=C2=A1=21?= Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-10-31 16:41 +0000
                                Re: Newsreaders !¡!? Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-10-31 11:55 -0500
                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Barry OGrady <atheist@hotmail.com.au> - 2013-11-02 13:22 +1100
                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-02 05:41 +0100
                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-11-02 14:23 +0100
                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-02 13:48 +0000
                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-11-02 16:25 +0100
                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-11-02 10:58 -0500
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-02 16:25 +0000
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-02 16:58 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-02 20:49 +0100
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-02 22:49 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-02 17:08 +0000
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-11-02 13:21 -0500
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-02 19:31 +0000
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 11:58 +1300
                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 12:12 -0400
                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-02 16:27 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 12:47 -0400
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-02 22:54 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-11-02 23:01 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-02 23:16 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 19:27 -0400
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-03 03:36 +0000
                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 23:43 -0400
                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-11-02 21:03 -0700
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-03 07:33 +0100
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-03 08:44 -0700
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-03 18:16 +0100
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-03 13:28 -0400
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-03 20:48 +0100
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-03 14:54 -0400
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-03 21:19 +0100
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-04 12:20 +1300
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-03 08:25 +0000
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-03 04:39 -0400
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-03 08:49 -0700
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:02 +0000
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-03 19:13 -0700
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 03:43 +0000
                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 00:53 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-03 08:14 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-08 16:28 -0600
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-09 04:13 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-10 08:28 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !�! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-11 09:02 +0100
                                                Re: Newsreaders !�! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-11-11 00:52 -0800
                                                Re: Newsreaders !�! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-11-11 00:56 -0800
                                                  Re: Re: Newsreaders !�! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-12 09:00 +1300
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !�! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-12 20:54 +0100
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !�! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-13 09:21 +1300
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !�! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-12 14:04 +0000
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !�! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-12 20:29 +0100
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !�! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-13 06:44 +0000
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-13 22:52 +1300
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !�! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-12 20:52 +0100
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !�! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-11-12 14:27 -0800
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !�! Ted Lee <tmplee@mr.net> - 2013-11-12 17:04 -0600
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 05:48 +0100
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-13 06:45 +0000
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 10:15 +0100
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-14 10:00 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-14 12:08 +0000
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-15 07:38 +0100
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-15 11:32 +0000
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-13 22:52 +1300
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 12:41 +0100
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-14 10:04 +0000
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-14 10:02 +0000
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2013-11-17 20:00 -0500
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-11-17 17:14 -0800
                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-11 22:37 +1300
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-12 13:50 +0100
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-13 03:59 +1300
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-12 19:31 +0100
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-13 22:37 +1300
                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-12 21:47 -0600
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-13 16:58 +1300
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 10:37 +0100
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-14 09:24 +1300
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-14 17:23 -0600
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-15 13:18 +1300
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-15 06:44 +0000
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !?! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-15 22:34 -0600
                                                            Re: Newsreaders - not for €, Tim’s only Martin Trautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 05:08 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders - not for €, Tim’s only Doc O'Leary <droleary@6usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2013-11-16 11:07 -0600
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-17 08:26 +1300
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 19:40 +0000
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 00:15 +0100
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-17 13:36 +1300
                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-13 22:52 +1300
                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 12:48 +0100
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-14 02:59 +1300
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 21:11 +0100
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-14 11:49 +1300
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-14 02:03 +0100
                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-14 17:30 -0600
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-15 05:04 +0000
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-15 18:23 +1300
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !?! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-15 22:36 -0600
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-15 11:39 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-15 17:54 +0000
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-15 18:03 +0000
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-15 18:23 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-15 18:34 +0000
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-15 21:18 +0000
                                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 04:15 +0000
                                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-16 04:20 +0000
                                                                          Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-16 13:47 +0000
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-16 00:45 +0000
                                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 04:19 +0000
                                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 04:48 +0000
                                                                          Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 07:55 +0000
                                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-16 17:51 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-11-15 12:21 -0800
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-11-15 14:32 -0600
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-16 00:47 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-11-15 14:30 -0600
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Ted Lee <tmplee@mr.net> - 2013-11-15 13:26 -0600
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-15 22:09 +0100
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-16 00:50 +0000
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-16 01:48 +0100
                                                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-16 03:57 +0000
                                                                        Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-16 07:59 +0100
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-16 01:54 +0100
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-16 20:04 +0000
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-16 19:51 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !?! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-16 10:21 +1300
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-16 04:17 +0000
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-16 14:00 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 02:09 +0100
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !?! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-16 20:08 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !?! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-17 12:09 +1300
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !?! David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2013-11-16 13:33 -0600
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !?! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 01:47 +0100
                                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-15 07:59 +0100
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-15 11:36 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-15 18:23 +0100
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-16 19:42 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 01:49 +0100
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-18 06:52 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-15 17:51 +0000
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-16 07:58 +1300
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-16 19:50 +0000
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-17 11:10 +1300
                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-15 17:50 +0000
                                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-11-15 22:50 -0600
                                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 02:14 +0100
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-17 17:48 +1300
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 06:40 +0100
                                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-18 05:37 +1300
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-17 15:15 +0000
                                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 16:51 +0100
                                                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-18 06:16 +1300
                                                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-18 06:09 +1300
                                                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 20:23 +0100
                                                                          Re: Newsreaders !¬°! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-18 09:27 +1300
                                                                            Re: Newsreaders !¬°! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-18 15:44 +1300
                                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¬°! Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-17 18:02 +1300
                                                                    Re: Newsreaders !¬°! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-17 06:45 +0100
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 11:58 +1300
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 19:27 -0400
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 15:55 +1300
                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 23:43 -0400
                                                  Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 18:54 +1300
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-03 08:51 +0000
                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-02 16:59 +0000
                                    Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-02 20:53 +0100
                                      Re: Newsreaders !?! Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-11-02 14:02 -0700
                                      Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-02 21:11 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-02 21:32 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 11:58 +1300
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-03 00:50 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-03 01:55 +0100
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:07 +0000
                                                Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:23 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-03 01:07 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jim Gibson <JimSGibson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-02 18:31 -0700
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 15:55 +1300
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:10 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-11-02 19:50 -0700
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 15:55 +1300
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 16:12 +1300
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-03 03:42 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-03 05:28 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:13 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-03 01:48 +0100
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 15:55 +1300
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> - 2013-11-03 03:43 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-03 05:30 +0000
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-03 18:54 +1300
                                              Re: Newsreaders !¡! Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> - 2013-11-03 12:48 +0100
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-11-03 16:37 -0800
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:05 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:39 +0000
                                            Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-04 02:01 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders !¡! Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-03 01:05 +0000
                                          Re: Newsreaders !¡! Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-11-04 01:33 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-01 10:52 +1300
                        Re: Newsreaders Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-10-31 10:12 +0000
                          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> - 2013-11-13 21:15 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2013-11-14 10:01 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders spamfalle2@arcor.de (Marc Stibane) - 2013-11-05 20:31 +0100
    Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-02-08 00:49 +0200
      Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-07 18:42 -0600
        Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-08 02:05 +0000
        Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-08 16:12 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-08 15:21 -0600
            Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-08 20:01 -0500
              Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-08 18:09 -0700
                Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-08 21:48 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-08 20:51 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-02-28 12:19 -0500
            Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-09 01:40 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-08 21:50 -0600
        Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-02-09 19:26 +0200
          Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-09 17:31 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-09 23:22 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-09 23:44 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-10 02:01 +0100
            Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-02-10 10:00 -0500
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-11 13:27 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 09:51 -0500
                  Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-11 18:55 +0000
                    Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-11 23:28 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-09 19:40 -0600
            Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-10 04:34 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-08 02:04 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-08 03:33 +0000
        Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-08 06:28 +0100
          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-08 14:28 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-08 16:57 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-08 12:54 -0500
                Re: Newsreaders Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-02-08 19:02 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 19:29 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2014-02-09 12:50 +1300
                    Re: Newsreaders Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-02-09 13:21 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-08 23:06 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-08 20:01 -0500
                  Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-09 02:35 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-08 18:49 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-08 23:11 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-08 20:01 -0500
              Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-09 22:31 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-09 23:46 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-09 23:54 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-09 19:33 -0500
                    Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-09 17:46 -0700
                      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-10 00:49 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-09 20:45 -0500
                      Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-09 20:45 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-09 19:09 -0700
                          Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-09 22:03 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> - 2014-02-10 14:04 +0000
                          Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-10 16:48 +0000
                    Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-10 15:10 +0000
                      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-10 16:44 +0000
                      Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-10 13:43 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-11 00:29 +0000
                          Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-10 20:01 -0500
                    Re: Newsreaders MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-13 20:05 +0100
                      Re: Newsreaders dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2014-02-14 12:20 +1300
                        Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-13 18:40 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-13 23:45 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-14 17:16 +0100
                          Re: Newsreaders nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-14 12:11 -0500
      Re: Newsreaders android <here@there.was> - 2014-02-09 09:50 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-02-09 16:19 +0200
      Re: Newsreaders android <here@there.was> - 2014-02-09 09:53 +0100
      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-09 10:22 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders android <here@there.was> - 2014-02-09 10:27 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-09 15:24 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-09 23:47 +0100
          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-10 19:21 +0100
        Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-09 11:22 -0600
          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-09 22:23 +0100
            Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-09 23:08 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-09 19:37 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-02-10 09:59 -0500
                Re: Newsreaders dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2014-02-11 06:40 +1100
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-10 19:01 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-10 19:40 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-10 23:23 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-11 19:40 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-11 22:45 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-10 22:07 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-10 23:38 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2014-02-11 16:58 +1100
                    Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-11 23:06 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-12 17:02 -0500
                  Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-11 16:28 +0000
                    Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-11 23:30 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2014-02-12 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-12 17:25 +0000
                          Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-12 18:25 -0600
                        Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-12 18:25 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-12 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-12 18:30 -0600
                          Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-13 04:44 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-12 23:38 -0600
                          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-13 15:15 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-13 13:52 -0600
                            Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 13:44 +0100
                          Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 13:33 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-16 08:23 -0700
                        Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 12:58 +0100
                          Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-16 15:54 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-11 23:40 -0700
                    Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-12 18:32 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-13 05:02 +0000
                      Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 13:44 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-12 19:46 -0500
                  Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 12:40 +0100
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-11 20:29 +0100
            Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-10 11:30 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-10 19:08 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-10 13:32 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-10 21:00 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-11 11:35 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 13:19 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-12 12:31 -0600
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-12 12:20 -0700
                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2014-02-14 12:16 -0800
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-13 15:25 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-13 12:46 -0600
                              Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-14 00:52 +0000
                                Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-14 11:57 -0600
                                  Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-15 01:41 +0000
                                    Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-15 11:36 -0600
                                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-15 20:23 +0100
                                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-16 11:05 -0600
                                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-19 19:31 +0100
                                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-15 13:33 -0600
                                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-16 11:51 -0600
                                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-16 12:28 -0600
                                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-17 11:33 -0600
                                              Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-17 17:42 -0600
                                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-15 20:54 +0000
                                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-16 12:01 -0600
                                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-17 02:59 +0100
                                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-17 11:38 -0600
                                              Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-19 19:26 +0100
                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2014-02-14 12:14 -0800
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 17:04 -0500
                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-11 16:55 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-12 12:19 -0600
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-12 12:19 -0700
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-12 20:29 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-13 12:26 -0600
                              Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-13 22:33 +0100
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-12 19:51 -0500
                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-13 12:23 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-11 13:49 +0000
                    Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-11 11:41 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-11 19:37 +0100
                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-12 12:38 -0600
                          Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-12 20:24 +0100
                            Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-13 12:11 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-11 11:27 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-11 16:53 -0500
                    Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-12 12:11 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-02-12 20:04 -0500
                        Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-13 12:05 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 11:32 +0100
                  Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-16 11:17 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders + Thunderbird first impressions Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-16 12:18 -0600
            Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-10 12:41 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-10 19:42 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-10 21:55 +0100
                Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-11 11:58 -0600
                  Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-11 19:47 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-02-12 02:05 +0100
                      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-12 18:31 +0100
                    Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-12 11:39 -0600
                      Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-12 19:02 +0100
                        Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-13 11:31 -0600
                          Re: Newsreaders Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@googlemail.com> - 2014-02-13 19:11 +0100
                          Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-14 00:50 +0000
                            Re: Newsreaders Doc O'Leary <droleary@8usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2014-02-14 11:32 -0600
                              Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-02-14 17:54 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-02-11 19:10 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-25 09:50 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2014-02-25 21:08 -0600
              Re: Newsreaders Michael Breslau <mbreslau@speakeasy.org> - 2014-02-26 08:03 -0800
                Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-26 20:12 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-02-09 17:41 -0700

Page 23 of 29 — ← Prev page 1 … 21 22 [23] 24 25 … 29  Next page →


#56321

FromJolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date2014-02-10 00:49 +0000
Message-ID<blqm0kFf4ffU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#56319
On 2014-02-10, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <090220141933138735%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
><nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> > It is a myth. Find me one statement from Apple that says running Snow 
>> > Leopard client in a VM on Apple hardware violates the end user license 
>> > agreement. Such a statement does not exist.
>> 
>> it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
>> again:
>>   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
>>   Apple-branded computer at a time.
>> 
>> claiming otherwise is nothing more than rationalization to get
>> something for nothing.
>
> So if you have one copy of SL installed, and running under VM, you are
> not in violation of that EULA.  The key is the word "the"; the EULA is
> for SL; therefore "the software" means SL.  And that means you can be
> running the VM under Mavericks, and not be in violation of the EULA.

Of course. Only an idiot would try to argue otherwise. Cue
mr.know-it-all...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56330

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-09 20:45 -0500
Message-ID<090220142045258619%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56321
In article <blqm0kFf4ffU3@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> >> > It is a myth. Find me one statement from Apple that says running Snow 
> >> > Leopard client in a VM on Apple hardware violates the end user license 
> >> > agreement. Such a statement does not exist.
> >> 
> >> it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
> >> again:
> >>   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
> >>   Apple-branded computer at a time.
> >> 
> >> claiming otherwise is nothing more than rationalization to get
> >> something for nothing.
> >
> > So if you have one copy of SL installed, and running under VM, you are
> > not in violation of that EULA.  The key is the word "the"; the EULA is
> > for SL; therefore "the software" means SL.  And that means you can be
> > running the VM under Mavericks, and not be in violation of the EULA.
> 
> Of course. Only an idiot would try to argue otherwise. Cue
> mr.know-it-all...

do you have any proof that what i said is wrong? didn't think so.

more talking out your ass, as always.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56329

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-09 20:45 -0500
Message-ID<090220142045228488%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56319
In article <090220141746064267%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> > > It is a myth. Find me one statement from Apple that says running Snow 
> > > Leopard client in a VM on Apple hardware violates the end user license 
> > > agreement. Such a statement does not exist.
> > 
> > it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
> > again:
> >   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
> >   Apple-branded computer at a time.
> > 
> > claiming otherwise is nothing more than rationalization to get
> > something for nothing.
> 
> So if you have one copy of SL installed, and running under VM, you are
> not in violation of that EULA.  The key is the word "the"; the EULA is
> for SL; therefore "the software" means SL.  And that means you can be
> running the VM under Mavericks, and not be in violation of the EULA.

no. you are incorrect. snow leopard in a vm is an eula violation.

that's why lion has an *additional* clause specifically about virtual
machines.

i don't know why people have so much trouble with this. legalese can
sometimes be confusing, but it's not *that* hard to understand.

if it really was allowed, why would vmware and parallels block it?

there is no reason to block something that's not prohibited. it makes
absolutely no sense, especially when they have a financial incentive to
support it. 

but if that's not enough, apple confirms it to macworld:
<http://www.macworld.com/article/1163755/vmware_fusion_update_lets_users
_virtualize_leopard_snow_leopard.html>
  An Apple representative told us that Apple's end-user license
  agreements "permit properly licensed copies of Mac OS X Lion, Snow
  Leopard Server and Leopard Server to be virtualized on Apple-branded
  hardware only."

note the absence of snow leopard client in that list. 

parallels says apple prohibits it:
<http://kb.parallels.com/en/112323>
  Neither Leopard nor Snow Leopard are supported to be run on 
  Parallels Desktop virtual machines. That is due to the fact that it is
  prohibited by Apple's EULA.

vmware says the same thing:
<http://blogs.vmware.com/teamfusion/2008/06/virtual-leopard.html>
  Apple does not permit Mac OS X client as virtual machines, only Mac
  OS X Leopard Server as virtual machines. Only Leopard Server is
  support in virtual machines to match Apple¹s policy.

nevertheless, there are those who want something for nothing and will
try to justify it. 

however, the likelihood of getting caught and prosecuted is for all
intents zero, so it's really just about one's ethics.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56332

FromMichelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date2014-02-09 19:09 -0700
Message-ID<090220141909485596%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to#56329
In article <090220142045228488%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > > > It is a myth. Find me one statement from Apple that says running Snow 
> > > > Leopard client in a VM on Apple hardware violates the end user license 
> > > > agreement. Such a statement does not exist.
> > > 
> > > it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
> > > again:
> > >   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
> > >   Apple-branded computer at a time.
> > > 
> > > claiming otherwise is nothing more than rationalization to get
> > > something for nothing.
> > 
> > So if you have one copy of SL installed, and running under VM, you are
> > not in violation of that EULA.  The key is the word "the"; the EULA is
> > for SL; therefore "the software" means SL.  And that means you can be
> > running the VM under Mavericks, and not be in violation of the EULA.
> 
> no. you are incorrect. snow leopard in a vm is an eula violation.

Not according to the EULA you quoted, it's not.

> that's why lion has an *additional* clause specifically about virtual
> machines.

The reason that Lion has an additional clause is to allow Lion to run
under VM on a system that booted in Lion.

> i don't know why people have so much trouble with this. legalese can
> sometimes be confusing, but it's not *that* hard to understand.

You certainly seem to have a hard time understanding it.

> but if that's not enough, apple confirms it to macworld:
> <http://www.macworld.com/article/1163755/vmware_fusion_update_lets_users
> _virtualize_leopard_snow_leopard.html>
>   An Apple representative told us that Apple's end-user license
>   agreements "permit properly licensed copies of Mac OS X Lion, Snow
>   Leopard Server and Leopard Server to be virtualized on Apple-branded
>   hardware only."
> 
> note the absence of snow leopard client in that list. 

The absence of SL client says nothing about SL.  I could show you some
analogies, but you've repeatedly demonstrated that you are incapable of
understanding analogies.

Please show us where *Apple* says that SL client can't be run under a
VM in Mavericks.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56334

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-09 22:03 -0500
Message-ID<090220142203098446%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56332
In article <090220141909485596%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> > > > > It is a myth. Find me one statement from Apple that says running Snow 
> > > > > Leopard client in a VM on Apple hardware violates the end user
> > > > > license 
> > > > > agreement. Such a statement does not exist.
> > > > 
> > > > it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
> > > > again:
> > > >   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
> > > >   Apple-branded computer at a time.
> > > > 
> > > > claiming otherwise is nothing more than rationalization to get
> > > > something for nothing.
> > > 
> > > So if you have one copy of SL installed, and running under VM, you are
> > > not in violation of that EULA.  The key is the word "the"; the EULA is
> > > for SL; therefore "the software" means SL.  And that means you can be
> > > running the VM under Mavericks, and not be in violation of the EULA.
> > 
> > no. you are incorrect. snow leopard in a vm is an eula violation.
> 
> Not according to the EULA you quoted, it's not.

yes, according to the eula i quoted.

> > that's why lion has an *additional* clause specifically about virtual
> > machines.
> 
> The reason that Lion has an additional clause is to allow Lion to run
> under VM on a system that booted in Lion.

the snow leopard eula lacks that clause.

remember, you do not own os x. it is licensed to you. 

> > i don't know why people have so much trouble with this. legalese can
> > sometimes be confusing, but it's not *that* hard to understand.
> 
> You certainly seem to have a hard time understanding it.

i'm not the one having the hard time with it. 

as i said before, there are those who try to justify getting something
for nothing. 

granted, snow leopard server is cheap now, but it's still required. 

> > but if that's not enough, apple confirms it to macworld:
> > <http://www.macworld.com/article/1163755/vmware_fusion_update_lets_users
> > _virtualize_leopard_snow_leopard.html>
> >   An Apple representative told us that Apple's end-user license
> >   agreements "permit properly licensed copies of Mac OS X Lion, Snow
> >   Leopard Server and Leopard Server to be virtualized on Apple-branded
> >   hardware only."
> > 
> > note the absence of snow leopard client in that list. 
> 
> The absence of SL client says nothing about SL.  I could show you some
> analogies, but you've repeatedly demonstrated that you are incapable of
> understanding analogies.

back to the ad hominem attacks, i see. that shows just how weak your
position is. 

anyway, if snow leopard was allowed, then apple would have included it
among the versions they listed, yet they did not. 

why do you think they said 'lion, snow leopard server and leopard
server' rather than 'lion, snow leopard and leopard' ??

if snow leopard client was allowed, why would they not have said so?

> Please show us where *Apple* says that SL client can't be run under a
> VM in Mavericks.

i've already cited the eula itself, a quote from apple and statements
from vmware and parallels saying that it is prohibited.

even if bruce sewell told you that you're wrong, you would still try to
argue. 

one thing i've noticed is that once you get something stuck in your
head, nothing will change your mind, no matter what anyone says or what
proof is provided.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56338

FromTom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com>
Date2014-02-10 14:04 +0000
Message-ID<bls4ipFot6tU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#56329
On 2014-02-10, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>
> there is no reason to block something that's not prohibited. it makes
> absolutely no sense, especially when they have a financial incentive to
> support it.
>

Tell that to Congress.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56347

FromJolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date2014-02-10 16:48 +0000
Message-ID<blse7oFqtdcU4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#56338
On 2014-02-10, Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-10, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> there is no reason to block something that's not prohibited. it makes
>> absolutely no sense, especially when they have a financial incentive to
>> support it.
>
> Tell that to Congress.

*rim shot*!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56342

Fromme@home.spamsucks.ca (Király)
Date2014-02-10 15:10 +0000
Message-ID<ldaq5t$2i1$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#56317
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> it has *everything* to do with apple's end user agreement:
> 
> for snow leopard:
>   ...you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use
>   and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple- branded
>   computer at a time.

Right. One copy, whether in a VM or not. Running a 10.6 VM under a 10.9 
host complies with that.

> snow leopard server contains this clause:
>   You may also install and use other copies of Mac OS X Server Software
>   on the same Apple-branded computer, provided that you acquire an
>   individual and valid license from Apple for each of these other
>   copies of Mac OS X Server Software.

Right. This allows you to run more than one copy of the software on the 
same Mac. 
 
> lion (non-server) contains this clause:
>   (iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or
>   instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system
>   environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already
>   running the Apple Software.

Right. This allows you to run up to three copies of Lion on the same 
Mac, with one "directly" (you omitted that part) and two under a VM.

The Snow Leopard client license allows you to run one copy only, with no 
restrictions on whether it's "directly" or "within virtual operating 
system environments".

You can pretend all you want that the snow leopard client SLA prohibits 
installing it in a VM on Apple hardware, but it simply isn't true. The 
language just isn't there.
 
> any agreement between the vm companies and apple is so that the above
> eula is enforced. 

That is a reasonable assumption to make if one did not read and 
understand the Snow Leopard SLA. But, by reading and understanding the 
Snow Leopard SLA, one can see that it's not true. There is some other 
reason they don't support it.

> otherwise, why block something if it's supposedly allowed? 

Most likely because Apple does not want people running Snow Leopard 
Client VMs, and since they neglected to include such a prohibition in 
the Snow Leopard Client license, they told the VM compaines to not 
support Snow Leopard Client VMs as a condition of licensing them the 
Boot ROM code. In other words, it's Apple's way of closing the barn door 
after the horses have gone out.
 
> that makes *no* sense, so obviously there must be a reason, and that
> reason is because it's *not* allowed and apple doesn't want a product
> that makes an eula violation trivial to do. 

See above. Nothing to do with the eula, and everything to do with the 
license agreement between Apple and the VM companies. The latter is not 
something we the end users are party to and we do not have to be 
concerned with it.
> 
> it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
> again:
>   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
>   Apple-branded computer at a time.

"The Apple Software" does not mean any and all software that Apple 
has ever or will ever release. It refers only to the software bundled 
with the license, which is 10.6 in case of the 10.6 license. What lawyer 
did you consult who told you that running Snow Leopard Client in a VM 
with 10.9 as the host, on Apple hardware, violates the above? It 
doesn't. So give it up already.

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56346

FromJolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date2014-02-10 16:44 +0000
Message-ID<blse05FqtdcU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#56342
On 2014-02-10, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> it has *everything* to do with apple's end user agreement:
>> 
>> for snow leopard:
>>   ...you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use
>>   and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple- branded
>>   computer at a time.
>
> Right. One copy, whether in a VM or not. Running a 10.6 VM under a 10.9 
> host complies with that.
>
>> snow leopard server contains this clause:
>>   You may also install and use other copies of Mac OS X Server Software
>>   on the same Apple-branded computer, provided that you acquire an
>>   individual and valid license from Apple for each of these other
>>   copies of Mac OS X Server Software.
>
> Right. This allows you to run more than one copy of the software on the 
> same Mac. 
>  
>> lion (non-server) contains this clause:
>>   (iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or
>>   instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system
>>   environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already
>>   running the Apple Software.
>
> Right. This allows you to run up to three copies of Lion on the same 
> Mac, with one "directly" (you omitted that part) and two under a VM.
>
> The Snow Leopard client license allows you to run one copy only, with no 
> restrictions on whether it's "directly" or "within virtual operating 
> system environments".
>
> You can pretend all you want that the snow leopard client SLA prohibits 
> installing it in a VM on Apple hardware, but it simply isn't true. The 
> language just isn't there.

That won't stop weasel boy from trying to argue to the bitter end.
 
-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56359

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-10 13:43 -0500
Message-ID<100220141343443693%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56342
In article <ldaq5t$2i1$1@dont-email.me>, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
wrote:

> > it has *everything* to do with apple's end user agreement:
> > 
> > for snow leopard:
> >   ...you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use
> >   and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple- branded
> >   computer at a time.
> 
> Right. One copy, whether in a VM or not. Running a 10.6 VM under a 10.9 
> host complies with that.

half correct. it's one copy and not in a vm.

> > snow leopard server contains this clause:
> >   You may also install and use other copies of Mac OS X Server Software
> >   on the same Apple-branded computer, provided that you acquire an
> >   individual and valid license from Apple for each of these other
> >   copies of Mac OS X Server Software.
> 
> Right. This allows you to run more than one copy of the software on the 
> same Mac. 

for snow leopard server, not client. snow leopard client is limited to
one copy on apple hardware, not a vm. 

> > lion (non-server) contains this clause:
> >   (iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or
> >   instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system
> >   environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already
> >   running the Apple Software.
> 
> Right. This allows you to run up to three copies of Lion on the same 
> Mac, with one "directly" (you omitted that part) and two under a VM.

correct. it changed in lion. 

snow leopard does not have this clause. 

> The Snow Leopard client license allows you to run one copy only, with no 
> restrictions on whether it's "directly" or "within virtual operating 
> system environments".

wrong.

> You can pretend all you want that the snow leopard client SLA prohibits 
> installing it in a VM on Apple hardware, but it simply isn't true. The 
> language just isn't there.

in other words, you don't understand what you're reading. 

> > any agreement between the vm companies and apple is so that the above
> > eula is enforced. 
> 
> That is a reasonable assumption to make if one did not read and 
> understand the Snow Leopard SLA. But, by reading and understanding the 
> Snow Leopard SLA, one can see that it's not true. There is some other 
> reason they don't support it.

you keep saying that, yet you never say what that reason is. what's the
reason? why would a company agree to block what is not actually
prohibited? that makes *no* sense whatsoever. 

furthermore, the two companies in question both said that apple
prohibits it, which is why they did it. 

and if that's not enough, apple themselves said it's prohibited. 

> > otherwise, why block something if it's supposedly allowed? 
> 
> Most likely because Apple does not want people running Snow Leopard 
> Client VMs, and since they neglected to include such a prohibition in 
> the Snow Leopard Client license, they told the VM compaines to not 
> support Snow Leopard Client VMs as a condition of licensing them the 
> Boot ROM code. In other words, it's Apple's way of closing the barn door 
> after the horses have gone out.

nonsense. 

'most likely' means you're guessing.

there's no need to guess. apple themselves said it was prohibited, as
did the vm companies, which means the reason is that apple doesn't want
a third party product that lets people break the eula with ease. 

> > that makes *no* sense, so obviously there must be a reason, and that
> > reason is because it's *not* allowed and apple doesn't want a product
> > that makes an eula violation trivial to do. 
> 
> See above. Nothing to do with the eula, and everything to do with the 
> license agreement between Apple and the VM companies. The latter is not 
> something we the end users are party to and we do not have to be 
> concerned with it.

it has everything to do with the eula. that defines what the user can
and cannot do. 

why would third party companies agree to something that restricts what
is perfectly legal?

it fails the taste test.

> > it's in the eula, plain as can be and quoted above, but here it is
> > again:
> >   ...use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single
> >   Apple-branded computer at a time.
> 
> "The Apple Software" does not mean any and all software that Apple 
> has ever or will ever release. It refers only to the software bundled 
> with the license, which is 10.6 in case of the 10.6 license. What lawyer 
> did you consult who told you that running Snow Leopard Client in a VM 
> with 10.9 as the host, on Apple hardware, violates the above? It 
> doesn't. So give it up already.

counsel for vmware & parallels disagree with you *and* apple says it's
prohibited. 

that means *you* are wrong.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56375

Fromme@home.spamsucks.ca (Király)
Date2014-02-11 00:29 +0000
Message-ID<ldbqte$pb7$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#56359
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> that means *you* are wrong.

Whatever, dude. I'm done with you - I don't know why people bother with 
you.

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56380

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-10 20:01 -0500
Message-ID<100220142001233254%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56375
In article <ldbqte$pb7$1@dont-email.me>, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
wrote:

> > that means *you* are wrong.
> 
> Whatever, dude. I'm done with you - I don't know why people bother with 
> you.

i could say the same about you.

despite extensive evidence, you refuse to acknowledge you are wrong. 

i don't know what more there is than apple themselves saying it's not
allowed. if anyone knows, it's apple.

but alas, you know more than apple does.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56503

FromMartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-13 20:05 +0100
Message-ID<ldj51f$3n1$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#56317
> In article <ld9401$pe4$1@dont-email.me>, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
> wrote:
>
> for snow leopard:
>    ...you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use
>    and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple- branded
>    computer at a time.

While I don't want to feed the debate, there is one single thing that I 
really wonder why nobody actually talks about it - neither the "EULA 
allows" nor the "EULA forbids" league.

It's the term: "a single Apple-branded computer".

To my best of knowledge, the whole idea of a VM is to run some software 
on a host system that prepares a sandbox for an idealized "virtual 
computer" that in turn then installs the guest system within.

So (maybe) the question is: If Parallels or VMWare create such a virtual 
hardware within its software, is this software-created computer then "a 
single Apple-branded computer" ?

Or is it rather something like "some Apple/Mac compatible computer that 
actually got built by some third party" (in this case Parallels/VMWare).

Serious question (to those who know), could this be the actual trigger 
for all this problem with Myth vs. Reality? That Apple simply told 
VMWare and Parallels that it doesn't regard their software as an "Apple 
branded computer"?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56518

Fromdempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson)
Date2014-02-14 12:20 +1300
Message-ID<1lh23vt.141fxjk16r5enyN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>
In reply to#56503
MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <ld9401$pe4$1@dont-email.me>, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > for snow leopard:
> >    ...you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use
> >    and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple- branded
> >    computer at a time.
> 
> While I don't want to feed the debate, there is one single thing that I
> really wonder why nobody actually talks about it - neither the "EULA 
> allows" nor the "EULA forbids" league.
> 
> It's the term: "a single Apple-branded computer".
> 
> To my best of knowledge, the whole idea of a VM is to run some software
> on a host system that prepares a sandbox for an idealized "virtual 
> computer" that in turn then installs the guest system within.
> 
> So (maybe) the question is: If Parallels or VMWare create such a virtual
> hardware within its software, is this software-created computer then "a
> single Apple-branded computer" ?
> 
> Or is it rather something like "some Apple/Mac compatible computer that
> actually got built by some third party" (in this case Parallels/VMWare).
> 
> Serious question (to those who know), could this be the actual trigger
> for all this problem with Myth vs. Reality? That Apple simply told 
> VMWare and Parallels that it doesn't regard their software as an "Apple
> branded computer"?

No, it can't be as simple as that, because the 10.6 Server EULA includes
the additional sentence:

"You may also install and use other copies of Mac OS X Server Software
on the same Apple-branded computer, provided that you acquire an
individual and valid license from Apple for each of these other copies
of Mac OS X Server Software."

This wording implies the "other copies" of 10.6 Server are being used on
the same computer as the first copy, which implies that the
"Apple-branded computer" wording in both the 10.6 and 10.6 Server EULAs
only covers the physical hardware, not the VM software used to enable
running other copies of 10.6 Server.

Based on that interpretation I can't see how the 10.6 non-server EULA
disallows running 10.6 non-server in a VM, provided the host OS is not
also 10.6 (since there is no clause allowing multiple copies of the same
OS to be used at once), and provided the host hardware is an
Apple-branded computer.

It appears that Apple's intention was to disallow the use of 10.6
non-server in a VM, and to allow 10.6 Server, but they didn't word the
EULA very well.

If taken literally, the 10.6 Server EULA only permits the use of 10.6
Server in a VM if the host OS is also 10.6 Server. None of the VM
companies are forcing that restriction, and it appears that Apple
doesn't care about it either.

On the other hand, the VM companies are at least making token efforts to
prevent the use of 10.6 non-server in a VM, despite the EULA not clearly
excluding this, and despite Parallels' claim that the restriction is
because of the EULA.

Király changed my mind on this one - I now agree that the only reason
which makes sense is that there must be another licence agreement
between Apple and the VM companies (e.g. for Mac-compatible boot code),
which we haven't seen, and that licence agreement must be the one which
restricts the VM companies to only allow Server versions of 10.5 and
10.6 in a VM.

As for nospam's bafflement as to _why_ this restriction exists, I have a
theory on that as well, but out of time right now.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56519

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-13 18:40 -0500
Message-ID<130220141840458459%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56518
In article <1lh23vt.141fxjk16r5enyN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>, David
Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> On the other hand, the VM companies are at least making token efforts to
> prevent the use of 10.6 non-server in a VM, despite the EULA not clearly
> excluding this, and despite Parallels' claim that the restriction is
> because of the EULA.
> 
> Király changed my mind on this one - I now agree that the only reason
> which makes sense is that there must be another licence agreement
> between Apple and the VM companies (e.g. for Mac-compatible boot code),
> which we haven't seen, and that licence agreement must be the one which
> restricts the VM companies to only allow Server versions of 10.5 and
> 10.6 in a VM.

yet nobody can explain why any company would agree to not offer a
feature that isn't actually prohibited. 

it's in the vested interest of the vm companies to offer features that
customers want, or even to offer a feature their competitor lacks
(until the other company updates their product to match).

yet *both* companies block it and have gone on record saying that the
reason they block it is because it's prohibited by apple. why would
they do that, let alone say that, if it was not prohibited? 

furthermore, apple themselves said it was not allowed in response to a
question from macworld. 

those who claim that there is no restriction have no explanation for
any of that. it's as if none of that existed. except, it does exist and
they need to explain why. 

> As for nospam's bafflement as to _why_ this restriction exists, I have a
> theory on that as well, but out of time right now.

i'm not baffled at all. apple and the vm companies say it's not allowed
in multiple places and on multiple occasions.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#56520

FromJolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date2014-02-13 23:45 +0000
Message-ID<bm53odFmlpcU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#56518
On 2014-02-13, David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> > In article <ld9401$pe4$1@dont-email.me>, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > for snow leopard:
>> >    ...you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use
>> >    and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple- branded
>> >    computer at a time.
>> 
>> While I don't want to feed the debate, there is one single thing that I
>> really wonder why nobody actually talks about it - neither the "EULA 
>> allows" nor the "EULA forbids" league.
>> 
>> It's the term: "a single Apple-branded computer".
>> 
>> To my best of knowledge, the whole idea of a VM is to run some software
>> on a host system that prepares a sandbox for an idealized "virtual 
>> computer" that in turn then installs the guest system within.
>> 
>> So (maybe) the question is: If Parallels or VMWare create such a virtual
>> hardware within its software, is this software-created computer then "a
>> single Apple-branded computer" ?
>> 
>> Or is it rather something like "some Apple/Mac compatible computer that
>> actually got built by some third party" (in this case Parallels/VMWare).
>> 
>> Serious question (to those who know), could this be the actual trigger
>> for all this problem with Myth vs. Reality? That Apple simply told 
>> VMWare and Parallels that it doesn't regard their software as an "Apple
>> branded computer"?
>
> No, it can't be as simple as that, because the 10.6 Server EULA includes
> the additional sentence:
>
> "You may also install and use other copies of Mac OS X Server Software
> on the same Apple-branded computer, provided that you acquire an
> individual and valid license from Apple for each of these other copies
> of Mac OS X Server Software."
>
> This wording implies the "other copies" of 10.6 Server are being used on
> the same computer as the first copy, which implies that the
> "Apple-branded computer" wording in both the 10.6 and 10.6 Server EULAs
> only covers the physical hardware, not the VM software used to enable
> running other copies of 10.6 Server.
>
> Based on that interpretation I can't see how the 10.6 non-server EULA
> disallows running 10.6 non-server in a VM, provided the host OS is not
> also 10.6 (since there is no clause allowing multiple copies of the same
> OS to be used at once), and provided the host hardware is an
> Apple-branded computer.
>
> It appears that Apple's intention was to disallow the use of 10.6
> non-server in a VM, and to allow 10.6 Server, but they didn't word the
> EULA very well.
>
> If taken literally, the 10.6 Server EULA only permits the use of 10.6
> Server in a VM if the host OS is also 10.6 Server. None of the VM
> companies are forcing that restriction, and it appears that Apple
> doesn't care about it either.
>
> On the other hand, the VM companies are at least making token efforts to
> prevent the use of 10.6 non-server in a VM, despite the EULA not clearly
> excluding this, and despite Parallels' claim that the restriction is
> because of the EULA.
>
> Király changed my mind on this one - I now agree that the only reason
> which makes sense is that there must be another licence agreement
> between Apple and the VM companies (e.g. for Mac-compatible boot code),
> which we haven't seen, and that licence agreement must be the one which
> restricts the VM companies to only allow Server versions of 10.5 and
> 10.6 in a VM.
>
> As for nospam's bafflement as to _why_ this restriction exists, I have a
> theory on that as well, but out of time right now.

Honestly, I couldn't give less of a shit either way. The bickering at
this point far outweighs the reality of whether anyone like me would
worry about it.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#56535

FromPaul Sture <nospam@sture.ch>
Date2014-02-14 17:16 +0100
Message-ID<m4s1ta-u6n2.ln1@news.chingola.ch>
In reply to#56518
On 2014-02-13, David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> On the other hand, the VM companies are at least making token efforts to
> prevent the use of 10.6 non-server in a VM, despite the EULA not clearly
> excluding this, and despite Parallels' claim that the restriction is
> because of the EULA.
>
> Király changed my mind on this one - I now agree that the only reason
> which makes sense is that there must be another licence agreement
> between Apple and the VM companies (e.g. for Mac-compatible boot code),
> which we haven't seen, and that licence agreement must be the one which
> restricts the VM companies to only allow Server versions of 10.5 and
> 10.6 in a VM.

Yes, Király's idea makes sense.

> As for nospam's bafflement as to _why_ this restriction exists, I have a
> theory on that as well, but out of time right now.

I believe the popularity of running stuff in virtual machines caught
various manufacturers (not just Apple) by surprise.

Whatever the original intention was, it would have been kind of hard to
continue the "no client" restriction once OS X Server was moved to being
an app atop client OS X.  Hmm a bit chicken and egg here and I've no
idea which came first out of "client in a VM" and "Server as an app".

--
Paul Sture

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#56537

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-02-14 12:11 -0500
Message-ID<140220141211571946%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#56535
In article <m4s1ta-u6n2.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> > On the other hand, the VM companies are at least making token efforts to
> > prevent the use of 10.6 non-server in a VM, despite the EULA not clearly
> > excluding this, and despite Parallels' claim that the restriction is
> > because of the EULA.
> >
> > Király changed my mind on this one - I now agree that the only reason
> > which makes sense is that there must be another licence agreement
> > between Apple and the VM companies (e.g. for Mac-compatible boot code),
> > which we haven't seen, and that licence agreement must be the one which
> > restricts the VM companies to only allow Server versions of 10.5 and
> > 10.6 in a VM.
> 
> Yes, Király's idea makes sense.

it does?

then explain why apple forced companies to agree to not offer a feature
that isn't actually prohibited.

also explain why the companies agreed to such a thing and then publicly
state that the reason they don't offer it is because apple said it's
not allowed.

i'm still waiting for a good answer on that. 

if what he says is true, then those should be easy questions to answer.

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#56278

Fromandroid <here@there.was>
Date2014-02-09 09:50 +0100
Message-ID<blotqkF3pkuU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#56193
On  2014-02-07 23:49, Matti Haveri wrote:
> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>   Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>
> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion
> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>
I think that you are a sissy Sir!

True MacGeeks want their Classic apps back and that possible you know!!! 
Load thy putter with the classic emulator Sheepshaver and put the 
original MT-NW in that!

The quick fix with a GUI is Thunderbird though...

-- 
teleportation kills

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#56286

FromMatti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid>
Date2014-02-09 16:19 +0200
Message-ID<nospam-B268B3.16193109022014@uutiset.elisa.fi>
In reply to#56278
In article <blotqkF3pkuU1@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was> 
wrote:

> Sheepshaver and put the original MT-NW in that!

Nah, I prefer the original (non-MT/YA/VA/etc) Steve Falkenburg's 
NewsWatcher ;-)

http://www.norstad.org/autobiography.html

-- 
Matti Haveri <mattiDOThaveriATsjokiDOTutaeiroskaaDOTfi> remove ei roskaa

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