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Thoth and dictation under Mavericks

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  Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-07 11:19 +0000
    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-07 12:43 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-01-07 08:51 -0700
        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-01-07 16:41 +0000
        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-07 16:43 +0000
          Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-01-07 10:03 -0700
    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2014-01-07 12:48 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-07 12:50 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks M-M <nospam.m-m@ny.more> - 2014-01-07 09:33 -0500
        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-07 09:56 -0800
          Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Mark - 2014-01-07 18:35 +0000
            Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 09:44 -0800
              Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 17:54 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-08 13:42 -0500
                  Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 13:59 -0800
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2014-01-08 23:45 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 18:44 -0800
              Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-08 18:35 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2014-01-08 19:27 +0000
                  Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Mr Guest <tom@guest-spamtrap.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 19:46 +0000
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 20:31 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Mr Guest <tom@guest-spamtrap.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 21:00 +0000
                  Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 14:00 -0800
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-08 22:08 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 15:40 -0800
                        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-09 08:43 +0000
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks jim@magrathea.plus.com (Jim) - 2014-01-09 19:03 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-09 12:04 -0800
              Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-01-08 11:34 -0800
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-08 20:28 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 20:32 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-01-08 14:52 -0700
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-07 14:49 +0000
    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-01-07 13:22 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-07 14:50 +0000

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#54519

In article <XnsA2AFC9292F11Dmrguest@130.133.4.11>, Mr Guest
<tom@guest-spamtrap.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> Having tripped over my Apple USB Keyboard at the weekend it doesn't have 
> one and the Help key does nothing similar, suggestions are to remap the 
> keyboard to achieve this.
No need to remap the keyboard. System Prefs -> Dictation and Speech ->
Dictation -> Shortcut
> This is hooked up to my MBP 13" that does have 
> one and works as suggested (after download). Guess I need to find out what 
> the other commands are other than "new paragraph", "full stop" and 
> "comma".

It is sort of worth playing. There is a bunch more of them which I have
already forgotten. I tried for a while, but slow typist as I am, it was
still quicker to type into Emacs and paste into Thoth than it was to
dictate into Emacs, correct the mess and then paste.

-- 
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810  E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

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#54521

Elliott Roper wrote (apparently) in uk.comp.sys.mac on Wed 08 Jan 2014
20:31:47: 

> In article <XnsA2AFC9292F11Dmrguest@130.133.4.11>, Mr Guest
> <tom@guest-spamtrap.co.uk> wrote:
> <snip>
>> Having tripped over my Apple USB Keyboard at the weekend it doesn't
>> have one and the Help key does nothing similar, suggestions are to
>> remap the keyboard to achieve this.
> No need to remap the keyboard. System Prefs -> Dictation and Speech ->
> Dictation -> Shortcut

Ah, good plan. If I persevere with it.

>> This is hooked up to my MBP 13" that does have 
>> one and works as suggested (after download). Guess I need to find out
>> what the other commands are other than "new paragraph", "full stop" and
>> "comma".
> 
> It is sort of worth playing. There is a bunch more of them which I have
> already forgotten. I tried for a while, but slow typist as I am, it was
> still quicker to type into Emacs and paste into Thoth than it was to
> dictate into Emacs, correct the mess and then paste.
> 
Even having downloaded 491MB or whatever, it seems my fairly broad Yorkshire 
accent and stubborn headcold cause it to fail quite often even though it 
seems it is checking online. I could not get it to come up with the word 
"bowl", spelling it out puts it there in capitals instead. Apparently 
anything similar I say is "ball" instead.
-- 
MrGuest
Always, seemingly, on the road to nowhere

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#54526

On 2014-01-08 19:27:55 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:

> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:35:18 +0000, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
>> In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
>>> 
>>>> On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>>>>>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What does FN FN mean?
>>>> 
>>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
>>> 
>>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys
>>> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key
>>> or the ? key?
>> 
>> No. On the extended keyboard it's underneath the F13 key and above the
>> delete (not backspace) key.
> 
> On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
> I don't have any here to try it.
> 
> 	Cheers - Jaimie

Min is a Logitech, and so far none of this makes sense on my computer. 
Underneath my F13 is "Clear" from the number pad.

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#54527

In article <2014010814003744848-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2014-01-08 19:27:55 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:
> 
> > On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:35:18 +0000, Tim Streater
> > <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
> >>> 
> >>>> On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
> >>>>>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> >>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> >>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> What does FN FN mean?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
> >>> 
> >>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys
> >>> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key
> >>> or the ? key?
> >> 
> >> No. On the extended keyboard it's underneath the F13 key and above the
> >> delete (not backspace) key.
> > 
> > On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
> > I don't have any here to try it.

> Min is a Logitech, and so far none of this makes sense on my computer. 
> Underneath my F13 is "Clear" from the number pad.

A logitech *what*? I said - extended keyboard. What's so hard about
that to grasp, eh?

And as has *also* been pointed out, go to System Prefs ->
Dictation&Speech and you can set it to any fucking thing you like.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#54528

On 2014-01-08 22:08:43 +0000, Tim Streater said:

> In article <2014010814003744848-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-01-08 19:27:55 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:
>> 
>>> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:35:18 +0000, Tim Streater
>>> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>>>>>>>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What does FN FN mean?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys
>>>>> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key
>>>>> or the ? key?
>>>> 
>>>> No. On the extended keyboard it's underneath the F13 key and above the
>>>> delete (not backspace) key.
>>> 
>>> On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
>>> I don't have any here to try it.
> 
>> Min is a Logitech, and so far none of this makes sense on my computer. 
>> Underneath my F13 is "Clear" from the number pad.
> 
> A logitech *what*? I said - extended keyboard. What's so hard about
> that to grasp, eh?
> 
> And as has *also* been pointed out, go to System Prefs ->
> Dictation&Speech and you can set it to any fucking thing you like.

I'm not using dictation or speech, so I don't give a shit about that. 
Clarifying "fn" It's clearly a source of stress for you; just let it go.

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#54533

In article <2014010815401176538-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2014-01-08 22:08:43 +0000, Tim Streater said:

> I'm not using dictation or speech, so I don't give a shit about that. 
> Clarifying "fn" It's clearly a source of stress for you; just let it go.

I didn't need it clarifying. A certain number of people apparently did.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#54540

gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> > On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
> > I don't have any here to try it.
> 
> Min is a Logitech, and so far none of this makes sense on my computer.
> Underneath my F13 is "Clear" from the number pad.

Some third-party keyboards (even though they're ostensibly Mac in
layout) may lack this key, especially if they're a few years old. As
will older Apple-made keyboards.

I think it's something Apple started doing with their laptop keyboards
in order to lose the requirement to have dedicated keys for screen
brightness and speaker volume - instead, certain of the F-keys doubled
up for those functions by use of this 'fn' key. Then they started to use
it on their full-size keyboards as well (for the same reason).

My third-party DasKeyboard has the 'fn' key, but then it's only a year
or so old.

Jim
-- 
Twitter:@GreyAreaUK       Facetime ID:jim@magrathea.plus.com
"It's a funny thing about English diners. They'll let you dazzle
 them with piddly duxelles of this and fussy little noisettes of
 that, but don't fuck with their puddings." Bill Bryson

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#54543

On 2014-01-09 19:03:59 +0000, Jim said:

> gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> 
>>> On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
>>> I don't have any here to try it.
>> 
>> Min is a Logitech, and so far none of this makes sense on my computer.
>> Underneath my F13 is "Clear" from the number pad.
> 
> Some third-party keyboards (even though they're ostensibly Mac in
> layout) may lack this key, especially if they're a few years old. As
> will older Apple-made keyboards.
> 
> I think it's something Apple started doing with their laptop keyboards
> in order to lose the requirement to have dedicated keys for screen
> brightness and speaker volume - instead, certain of the F-keys doubled
> up for those functions by use of this 'fn' key. Then they started to use
> it on their full-size keyboards as well (for the same reason).
> 
> My third-party DasKeyboard has the 'fn' key, but then it's only a year
> or so old.

This keyboard (logitech S530) is ancient, and I'm so enamored of it I 
chased down a duplicate on EBay last year.  I love this thing.

Nevertheless I'm a big fan of hot-keys and so have programmed dozens 
with QuicKeys. KeyCue is a utility that gets plenty of work too, since 
I tend to forget old hotkeys when I go back to old programs.

	http://www.ergonis.com/products/keycue/

I could always use another function key.

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#54515

In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
> 
> > On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
> > 
> >> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
> >> 
> >>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
> >>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> >>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> >>>> another app, like TextEdit?
> >>> 
> >>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
> >> 
> >> What does FN FN mean?
> > 
> > Press the 'fn' key twice.
> 
> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys 
> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key 
> or the ? key?

The MacBooks have a fn, ctl, and alt key.  If you don't have the laptop, 
you won't see the fn key.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#54518

On 2014-01-08, Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> The MacBooks have a fn, ctl, and alt key.  If you don't have the laptop, 
> you won't see the fn key.

No that's incorrect. Apple's extended keyboard does have the key as well.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#54520

On 08/01/2014 19:34, Michael Vilain wrote:
> In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
>>
>>> On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
>>>
>>>> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>>>>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>>>>
>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>>>
>>>> What does FN FN mean?
>>>
>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
>>
>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys
>> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key
>> or the ? key?
>
> The MacBooks have a fn, ctl, and alt key.  If you don't have the laptop,
> you won't see the fn key.
>

iMacs have it.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

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#54524

In article <vilain-2C88A6.11340208012014@news.individual.net>, Michael
Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> wrote:

> The MacBooks have a fn, ctl, and alt key.  If you don't have the laptop, 
> you won't see the fn key.

As has been mentioned, on the extended USB silver keyboard, it's just
below the f13 key.  On the silver Bluetooth keyboard, it's to the left
of the Control key (i.e., the bottom-left key on the keyboard).

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#54477

In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:19:11 +0000, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
> >I thought dictation was supposed to operate in any situation where
> >keyboard input is active. However it doesn't seem to work in Thoth. The
> >Thoth Edit menu has a "Start dictation" entry but choosing it (of the
> >Fn Fn shortcut) does nothing.
> 
> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> another app, like TextEdit?

Yeah, all that works very well - into f'rinstance a textbox in Safari.
In fact the first time I tried it in Mavericks it downloaded 0.5 gig of
"better dictation" or somesuch, which actually does a very good job,
more or less in real time too. Sometimes it thinks it knows what you
said, types it in, but then possibly based on subsequent words, will
backspace and retype furiously.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#54473

In message <070120141119116142%timstreater@greenbee.net> 
  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> I thought dictation was supposed to operate in any situation where
> keyboard input is active. However it doesn't seem to work in Thoth. The
> Thoth Edit menu has a "Start dictation" entry but choosing it (of the
> Fn Fn shortcut) does nothing.

Thoth is probably still largely OS 7-era code that was lifted from
Newswatcher/YA-Newswatcher.

The speech input (and many other features of OS X text) require a
NSText class, I believe. I would assume there are many things that work
in OS X that do not work in Thoth. For example, ^A should take you the
start of a line, and ^E to the end of a line.

-- 
'In the Fyres of Struggle let us bake New Men, who Will Notte heed the
old Lies.'

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#54478

In article <slrnlcnvt2.2ecg.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <070120141119116142%timstreater@greenbee.net> 
>   Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > I thought dictation was supposed to operate in any situation where
> > keyboard input is active. However it doesn't seem to work in Thoth. The
> > Thoth Edit menu has a "Start dictation" entry but choosing it (of the
> > Fn Fn shortcut) does nothing.
> 
> Thoth is probably still largely OS 7-era code that was lifted from
> Newswatcher/YA-Newswatcher.
> 
> The speech input (and many other features of OS X text) require a
> NSText class, I believe. I would assume there are many things that work
> in OS X that do not work in Thoth. For example, ^A should take you the
> start of a line, and ^E to the end of a line.

Those two don't work for me in TextWrangler, but there may be some pref
I haven't got set.

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
 lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores 
 the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them
 into it in the first place."                             - Douglas Adams

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