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Mojave

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  Mojave Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-09-24 14:58 -0700
    Re: Mojave JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-09-24 19:04 -0400
      Re: Mojave dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-09-27 00:49 +1200
        Re: Mojave JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-09-26 14:38 -0400
          Re: Mojave dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-09-27 13:29 +1200
            Re: Mojave JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-09-26 21:49 -0400
              Re: Mojave dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-09-27 20:42 +1200
                Re: Mojave JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-09-27 11:06 -0400
                  Re: Mojave Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-09-28 17:28 +0000
            Re: Mojave dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-10-04 10:05 +1300
    Re: Mojave Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-09-25 13:54 +1200

#118344 — Mojave

Well, I just upgraded to Mojave. I was worried about Thoth, but they
gave me another year. I selected "dark" mode for now. The menu bar is
dark and the text is white. I didn't have to do anything except select
dark or light mode. I didn't have to reestablish any connections, reset
my screen saver, or do anything at all. It was like an update. 
I didn't have to select setup or migration assistant. It just happened
magically. I've been up and running 10.14 for five minutes, so I can't
report on any issues yet. I'm running a 2014 Mini with a Thunderbolt
Display, Time Machine on a external HD, a just recently CCC backed up
external SSD which doesn't seem to be needed, and I pretty much back up
everything to iCloud. 
I'm puzzled by the ease of what I just did. There was one option on
startup, dark or light motif.
YMMV.

leo

--

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#118347

On 2018-09-24 17:58, Leonard Blaisdell wrote:

> I'm puzzled by the ease of what I just did. There was one option on
> startup, dark or light motif.


Yosemite to High Sierra for me introduced wicked support for my displasy
(2 identical) which require that before booting, I disconnect the TV
(HDMI port), and once booted, disconnect the first display and reconnect
it, then go into settings to set its resolution to a standard one.
(irinic because second display, identical make/model has and retains
proper resolution).

Apple told me they don't support old displays.

So I am weary of going Mojave. Will lilely still try it, but not becode
quiescing my system and oding one big backup of the system drive and
user files so I can roll back.

Question:

If/when rolling back to previous version, apary from ~/Library, what
else should be restored?

I take it that an OS-X upgrade doesn't mess with iTunes or iPhone
databases ? (assuming iTunes is current). ?

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#118406

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-09-24 17:58, Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
> 
> > I'm puzzled by the ease of what I just did. There was one option on
> > startup, dark or light motif.
> 
> 
> Yosemite to High Sierra for me introduced wicked support for my displasy
> (2 identical) which require that before booting, I disconnect the TV
> (HDMI port), and once booted, disconnect the first display and reconnect
> it, then go into settings to set its resolution to a standard one.
> (irinic because second display, identical make/model has and retains
> proper resolution).
> 
> Apple told me they don't support old displays.
> 
> So I am weary of going Mojave. Will lilely still try it, but not becode
> quiescing my system and oding one big backup of the system drive and
> user files so I can roll back.
> 
> Question:
> 
> If/when rolling back to previous version, apary from ~/Library, what
> else should be restored?

Don't even try.

You are better off cloning your system, upgrading the clone and testing
that, before deciding whether it is safe to upgrade your main system.

> I take it that an OS-X upgrade doesn't mess with iTunes or iPhone
> databases ? (assuming iTunes is current). ?

Photos and iTunes are newer versions in Mojave so their libraries won't
work if you downgrade to an older version.

That's just the obvious ones I've noticed in my early testing.

There are probably more things like that which you won't find out about
until too late if you upgrade your system with the expectation of being
able to hack together parts of an upgraded system with a restored clone
of an older OS.
-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#118415

On 2018-09-26 08:49, David Empson wrote:

> Photos and iTunes are newer versions in Mojave so their libraries won't
> work if you downgrade to an older version.

I don't yet use Photos. And as far as iTunes, you mean the
12.8 we all had to download to get IOS 12 gets replaced during upgrade
to Mojave and its database is different from 12.8 ?

> able to hack together parts of an upgraded system with a restored clone
> of an older OS.

For the system and apps, I can deal with the full disk and not be
selective. Just have to ensure I deal with the APFS stuff correctly.


But my user directory has a lot of data, so would rather be able to know
what specific directories outside of ~/Library would need to be restored
should I go back from Mojave to High Sierra.

(Library is big enough).

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#118423

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-09-26 08:49, David Empson wrote:
> 
> > Photos and iTunes are newer versions in Mojave so their libraries won't
> > work if you downgrade to an older version.
> 
> I don't yet use Photos. And as far as iTunes, you mean the
> 12.8 we all had to download to get IOS 12 gets replaced during upgrade
> to Mojave and its database is different from 12.8 ?

Mojave includes iTunes 12.9 which has a newer library format than iTunes
12.8.

Apple released iTunes 12.9 for Windows on September 12, but it appears
it is not being released for macOS 10.11, 10.12 and 10.13. This breaks
the well established pattern of updated iTunes versions supporting the
current and three preceding macOS versions.

Also noticed today: iTunes 12.6.5 (the last of the 12.6.x branch with
App Store retained) not only refuses to install on Mojave, but now Apple
has removed the link to the Mac version of iTunes 12.6.5, leaving just
the Windows version.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208079

Compare with last week's version:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180915060145/https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208079

> > able to hack together parts of an upgraded system with a restored clone
> > of an older OS.
> 
> For the system and apps, I can deal with the full disk and not be
> selective. Just have to ensure I deal with the APFS stuff correctly.
>
> But my user directory has a lot of data, so would rather be able to know
> what specific directories outside of ~/Library would need to be restored
> should I go back from Mojave to High Sierra.

If you are downgrading from Mojave on a hard drive or Fusion drive you
will have to wipe the entire disk anyway because High Sierra won't like
APFS on a startup hard drive.

(Even on an SSD, Mojave might have a newer revision of APFS which has
issues if used as a startup drive for High Sierra, so you are still
better off erasing the entire drive and selectively restoring.)

That means downgrading will require another clone, erase, restore old
High Sierra (or earlier) clone, then manually restore newer files and
folders from the Mojave clone, hoping you don't miss anything.

I hope you like creating more work for yourself.

As I said, it is much easier to clone the system, upgrade the clone, and
test that before deciding whether it is safe to upgrade your main system
drive.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#118424

On 2018-09-26 21:29, David Empson wrote:

> Mojave includes iTunes 12.9 which has a newer library format than iTunes
> 12.8.

Which likely means 12.9 is older than 12.8 as the later could remain
fluid till last minute, while 12.9 had to be set in concrete for the
golden master as part of the bigger OS-X.


> it is not being released for macOS 10.11, 10.12 and 10.13. This breaks
> the well established pattern of updated iTunes versions supporting the
> current and three preceding macOS versions.

Will Apple "rejoin" iTunes releases or will older OS remain at 12.8.x
while Mojave continues to evolve?


> (Even on an SSD, Mojave might have a newer revision of APFS which has
> issues if used as a startup drive for High Sierra, so you are still
> better off erasing the entire drive and selectively restoring.)

When backing uy High Sierra, can I backup the .GPT partition that
contains the APFS container? (that would allow me to restore the APFS
file system of High Sierra vintage including restore partition in it).

Otherwise you are right, I have to carefully plan this.
> As I said, it is much easier to clone the system

I will need to find a blank drive to do this.

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#118443

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-09-26 21:29, David Empson wrote:
> 
> > Mojave includes iTunes 12.9 which has a newer library format than iTunes
> > 12.8.
> 
> Which likely means 12.9 is older than 12.8 as the later could remain
> fluid till last minute, while 12.9 had to be set in concrete for the
> golden master as part of the bigger OS-X.

No.

iTunes 12.8 was released in July and has not been updated since. (The
September 12 date on the support download article is when the article
with the direct download link was published, not when the software was
updated.)

iTunes 12.9 for Windows was released on September 12. iTunes 12.9 for
the Mac was included in the public release of Mojave a week later.

I don't know when iTunes 12.9 appeared in betas of Mojave as I wasn't
paying that close attention, but the application is dated 18 August so
it could have been in several of the late Mojave betas, and an earlier
build of iTunes 12.9 could have been in earlier Mojave betas.

As I've already explained in another recent thread: as of iTunes 12.8,
Apple has decoupled iOS device support from iTunes application updates.
When a device running iOS 12 is first plugged into a Mac running El
Capitan, Sierra or High Sierra which has iTunes 12.8 installed, the
mobile device support updater runs and offers to install a required
device support update.

Mojave has the same mobile device support updater.

That means since July it has been possible for Apple to update iOS 12
mobile device support on El Capitan and later, without needing to update
the iTunes application. There may have been multiple mobile device
support updates for those running Mohave betas and iOS 12 betas, and
there could be further mobile updates for iOS 12.1 or later, again
without needing to update iTunes.

> > it is not being released for macOS 10.11, 10.12 and 10.13. This breaks
> > the well established pattern of updated iTunes versions supporting the
> > current and three preceding macOS versions.
> 
> Will Apple "rejoin" iTunes releases or will older OS remain at 12.8.x
> while Mojave continues to evolve?

See the description at

https://www.apple.com/itunes/download/

[quote]
The latest version of iTunes now comes installed with macOS Mojave.
Upgrade today to get your favorite music, movies, TV shows, and
podcasts. iTunes is also where you can join Apple Music and stream — or
download and play offline — over 50 million songs, ad-free.
[/quote]

That strongly indicates Apple is no longer distributing iTunes
application updates for anything older than the latest macOS version. If
you want iTunes 12.9 or later you need to be running Mojave.

The support download article for iTunes 12.8 provides access to the
manual installer for the latest iTunes for Yosemite through High Sierra.

Apple could still release bug/security fix updates of iTunes 12.8 for El
Capitan, Sierra and High Sierra, and those OS versions will get updates
of iOS device support as required (probably cutting off one more older
macOS version each year), but I expect those OS versions will never get
another feaure update of the iTunes application.

I also expect iTunes 12.9 and later for the Mac will be updated as part
of the OS, like Mail, Photos and similar.

> > (Even on an SSD, Mojave might have a newer revision of APFS which has
> > issues if used as a startup drive for High Sierra, so you are still
> > better off erasing the entire drive and selectively restoring.)
> 
> When backing uy High Sierra, can I backup the .GPT partition that
> contains the APFS container? (that would allow me to restore the APFS
> file system of High Sierra vintage including restore partition in it).

Why do you care? You should be backing up the files, not the raw
partitions.

Even if you don't back up the recovery volume, you can recreate it by
doing a High Sierra install on top of the restored system.

> Otherwise you are right, I have to carefully plan this.
> > As I said, it is much easier to clone the system
> 
> I will need to find a blank drive to do this.

What is wrong with the existing mulitple clone drives that you said you
had in your Mac Pro?

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#118446

On 2018-09-27 04:42, David Empson wrote:

> iTunes 12.8 was released in July and has not been updated since. 

OK. I guess my problem with App Store and DNS is why I didn't see it. My
first hint of 12.8 was when I tried to install IOS 12 with iTunes,
receiving message that I needed to install the new version of iTunes
which didn't yet show up on the App Store (at that time, didn't realise
I had problem with App Store). Downloaded iTunes from Apple web site.

> As I've already explained in another recent thread: as of iTunes 12.8,
> Apple has decoupled iOS device support from iTunes application updates.
> That strongly indicates Apple is no longer distributing iTunes> application updates for anything older than the latest macOS version.

This is a big change in tradition. iTunes was a rare application that
was upgraded across many older versions of OS-X.

But with the app store stripped off leaving only purchases of Music
which is no longer a big thing for Apple. So I can see a decreased
advantage to update iTunes across older versions of OS-X.


> What is wrong with the existing mulitple clone drives that you said you
> had in your Mac Pro?

I don't have multiple "clones". I have multiple disks including a HFS+
Time Machine backup target. To properly test the upgrade, the test
upgrade would have to be an APFS clone of my current APFS system disk.

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#118480

In message <Ml6rD.102687$8r2.58638@fx34.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> This is a big change in tradition. iTunes was a rare application that
> was upgraded across many older versions of OS-X.

Because of the need to allow older versions to manage new iOS releases.
That is no longer necessary as David explained to us, and explained to
you multiple times.

> But with the app store stripped off leaving only purchases of Music
> which is no longer a big thing for Apple.

Apple is the world's largest seller of music. But yes, it is not much
money TO APPLE compared to the $300 billion in cash reserves.

-- 
I have a cunning plan.
  Does it involve a turnip?
Funnily enough, it does!

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#118611

David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> Also noticed today: iTunes 12.6.5 (the last of the 12.6.x branch with
> App Store retained) not only refuses to install on Mojave, but now Apple
> has removed the link to the Mac version of iTunes 12.6.5, leaving just
> the Windows version.
> 
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208079
> 
> Compare with last week's version:
> 
>https://web.archive.org/web/20180915060145/https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208079

Now they've made iTunes 12.6.5 for the Mac available again, with an
updated description on the page which points out that it is not
compatible with Mojave.

I downloaded the linked 12.6.5 installer and can confirm it is identical
to the iTunes 12.6.5 which I downloaded two weeks ago.

https://support.apple.com/HT208079

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#118353

On 2018-09-24 21:58:24 +0000, Leonard Blaisdell said:
> 
> Well, I just upgraded to Mojave. I was worried about Thoth, but they
> gave me another year. I selected "dark" mode for now. The menu bar is
> dark and the text is white. I didn't have to do anything except select
> dark or light mode. I didn't have to reestablish any connections, reset
> my screen saver, or do anything at all. It was like an update.
> I didn't have to select setup or migration assistant. It just happened
> magically. I've been up and running 10.14 for five minutes, so I can't
> report on any issues yet. I'm running a 2014 Mini with a Thunderbolt
> Display, Time Machine on a external HD, a just recently CCC backed up
> external SSD which doesn't seem to be needed, and I pretty much back up
> everything to iCloud.
> I'm puzzled by the ease of what I just did. There was one option on
> startup, dark or light motif.
> YMMV.

macOS upgrades are supposed to be simple processes, and usually are.

"Dark Mode" is really just a 'theme' / 'skin' for the OS and apps. You 
can turn it on and off in the System preferences.

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