Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #73487 > unrolled thread

How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

Started by	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
First post	2015-04-20 00:40 +0000
Last post	2015-04-22 09:09 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 379 — 28 participants

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#73569

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:20 +0000
Message-ID	<mh1ur2$i5o$8@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73558

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152037478396%michelle@michelle.org

>> It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the capability
>> to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default text editor to
>> save ASCII text, but it's done.
> 
> You don't lose anything.

Actually, if what nospam, David Empson, and David Ritz said is true,
you *do* (temporarily) lose the capability to Save As whenever you set 
the capability to save to ASCII text in the default editor preferences.

It's almost as if Apple made saving ASCII as convoluted & unintuitive as 
possible; but, I now think I understand what you folks do every day
to have the option to save *either* as ASCII or some other format
from your default text editor.

You either:
a. Temporarily unhide the preference to save ASCII and then save
   the ASCII file and then re-hide the preference to save ASCII.

or, you:

b. Temporarily save as the wrong format (e.g., RTF), and then
   you go to the Format menu and then you save into the desired 
   format (i.e., ASCII text).

Given those are the *only* two options that solve the problem using
the default text editor, I can see now (in spades) why nospam and
others were advising a text editor other than the default TextEdit.

I'll explain to the Mac user tomorrow these (IMHO) idiotic options.

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#73575

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:31 +0000
Message-ID	<cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73569

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152037478396%michelle@michelle.org
>
>>> It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the
>>> capability to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default
>>> text editor to save ASCII text, but it's done.
>> 
>> You don't lose anything.
>
> Actually, if what nospam, David Empson, and David Ritz said is true,
> you *do* (temporarily) lose the capability to Save As whenever you set
> the capability to save to ASCII text in the default editor
> preferences.

Bullshit:

1. Format > Make Plain Text.  2. Save the document. 

The only thing that is lost is you - hopelessly.

> It's almost as if Apple made saving ASCII as convoluted & unintuitive
> as possible

No, it's as if Apple make TextEdit treat documents as rich text by
default. And you have chosen to ignore the simple Format > Make Plain
Text menu command.

>; but, I now think I understand what you folks do every day to have the
>option to save *either* as ASCII or some other format from your default
>text editor.

Nope. You don't understand anything.

> You either: a. Temporarily unhide the preference to save ASCII and
> then save the ASCII file and then re-hide the preference to save
> ASCII.
>
> or, you:
>
> b. Temporarily save as the wrong format (e.g., RTF), and then you go
> to the Format menu and then you save into the desired format (i.e.,
> ASCII text).

Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.

Also, you missed a third option (which is actually what most people do):

Use a better (and free) plain text editor, such as TextWrangler.

> Given those are the *only* two options that solve the problem using
> the default text editor

Wrong (see above).

> I can see now (in spades) why nospam and others were advising a text
> editor other than the default TextEdit.

Wrong again. The reason we are suggesting TextWrangler is because it has
*many* more features that are designed with plain text editing in mind,
while TextEdit features are mostly designed for rich text. Apparently
nobody ever taught you to use the right tool for the job.

> I'll explain to the Mac user tomorrow these (IMHO) idiotic options.

Poor guy. What a horribly misinformed "teacher"...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73599

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 05:42 +0000
Message-ID	<mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73575

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net

> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.

I belatedly understand what you are saying, which is that the default 
text editor has /two different menus for saving files/, one for what 
Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other 
to *Save As* a variety of other formats.

1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text 
2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

I will test this out tomorrow, and, since you're very clear on this, I'm 
sure it will work.

I will let the user know *not* to use the preferences method, but to use 
the two-different-menu method, which, I agree, is both simpler and more 
flexible.

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#73610

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-19 23:03 -0700
Message-ID	<190420152303313029%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73599

In article <mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> I will let the user know *not* to use the preferences method, but to use 
> the two-different-menu method, which, I agree, is both simpler and more 
> flexible.

I was wrong; you don't get it.

What you call the "preferences method" is not a method.  It is merely
setting what you want the default formatting to be.  If the majority of
the documents you create with the program are plain text documents, you
can set preferences to save as plain text; on the other hand, if the
majority of documents are Rich Text documents, you set the preferences
to Rich Text.  This is a *one-time* *thing*; from then on if you need
to format a document in the other format, you press command-shift-T (or
use the View menu).

To save the document, you press command-S (or choose Save from the File
menu).

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#73629

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 06:33 +0000
Message-ID	<mh26jb$i5o$34@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73610

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152303313029%michelle@michelle.org

> I was wrong; you don't get it.

:)

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#73690

From	dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com>
Date	2015-04-20 19:11 +1000
Message-ID	<do_ray_me-BD7345.19114220042015@aioe.org>
In reply to	#73599

In article <mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>,
 "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
> 
> > Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
> > set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
> 
> I belatedly understand what you are saying, [etc. etc...]

These exchanges strongly remind me of when God told Moses, at the top 
of Mount Sinai, to never cook a calf in its mother's milk. 

Moses: Ohhhhhh! So you are saying we should never eat milk and meat 
together. 

G: No, what I'm saying is, never cook a calf in its mother's milk. 

Moses: Oh, Lord forgive my ignorance! What you are really saying is we 
should wait six hours after eating meat to eat milk so the two are not 
in our stomachs. 

G: No, Moses, what I'm saying is, don't cook a calf in its mother's 
milk!!! 

Moses: Oh, Lord! Please don't strike me down for my stupidity! What 
you mean is we should have a separate set of dishes for milk and a 
separate set for meat and if we make a mistake we have to bury that 
dish outside.... 

G: Ah, Moses .... do what the hell you want....

And so, the Kosher Laws were founded.

-- 
dorayme

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#73694

From	Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net>
Date	2015-04-20 10:22 +0100
Message-ID	<200420151022559709%timstreater@greenbee.net>
In reply to	#73599

In article <mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
>cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
>
>> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
>> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
>
>I belatedly understand what you are saying,

No you don't.

>which is that the default 
>text editor has /two different menus for saving files/,

No it doesn't.

>one for what 
>Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other 
>to *Save As* a variety of other formats.
>
>1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text

This saves nothing at all. It merely changes the mode in which the app
operates, from RTF to plain text.

-- 
"... you must remember that if you're trying to propagate a creed of 
 poverty, gentleness and tolerance,  you need a very rich, powerful,
 authoritarian organisation to do it."             - Vice-Pope Eric

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#73724

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:08 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkfjrFg4haU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73599

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
>
>> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
>> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
>
> I belatedly understand what you are saying, which is that the default 
> text editor has /two different menus for saving files/, one for what 
> Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other 
> to *Save As* a variety of other formats.

You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at all
with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the document
that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are active for
that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with saving a *file*

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#73767

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-21 03:36 +1200
Message-ID	<1m37kic.3z2nq0onu85tN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#73724

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> > cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
> >
> >> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
> >> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
> >
> > I belatedly understand what you are saying, which is that the default
> > text editor has /two different menus for saving files/, one for what
> > Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other
> > to *Save As* a variety of other formats.
> 
> You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at all
> with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the document
> that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are active for
> that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with saving a *file*

Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#73794

From	David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Date	2015-04-20 13:16 -0500
Message-ID	<alpine.OSX.2.20.1504201244310.57809@mako.ath.cx>
In reply to	#73767

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
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On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 03:36 +1200, 
 in article <1m37kic.3z2nq0onu85tN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, 
 Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

>> You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at 
>> all with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the 
>> document that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are 
>> active for that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with 
>> saving a *file*

> Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?

Strictly speaking, text editors can only edit text files.  Editing 
rich text files require applications which can edit rich text, such 
as word processors.

This means TextEdit isn't exactly a text editor, in the classic sense, 
although it can be used to edit text files.

The first time I fired up an OS X version of TextEdit, I, too, was 
taken aback, when seeing it's default was as a rich text editor.  I 
found the name of the application somewhat ironic.

Where Adam went completely astray was in _assuming_ that the TextEdit 
save dialog would be identical to those found in Word.  Save dialogs 
with the same kind of drop-down File Type list in the Save dialog, 
which includes .txt, can be found in NeoOffice or OpenOffice word 
processors.

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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#73804

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2015-04-21 09:07 +1200
Message-ID	<210420150907257054%YourName@YourISP.com>
In reply to	#73794

In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1504201244310.57809@mako.ath.cx>, David
Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 03:36 +1200, 
>  in article <1m37kic.3z2nq0onu85tN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, 
>  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at 
> >> all with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the 
> >> document that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are 
> >> active for that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with 
> >> saving a *file*
> >
> > Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?
> 
> Strictly speaking, text editors can only edit text files.  Editing 
> rich text files require applications which can edit rich text, such 
> as word processors.
> 
> This means TextEdit isn't exactly a text editor, in the classic sense, 
> although it can be used to edit text files.
> 
> The first time I fired up an OS X version of TextEdit, I, too, was 
> taken aback, when seeing it's default was as a rich text editor.  I 
> found the name of the application somewhat ironic.

That would mean the name "Word" is also ironic because you can add
pictures?!?



> Where Adam went completely astray was in _assuming_ that the TextEdit 
> save dialog would be identical to those found in Word.  Save dialogs 
> with the same kind of drop-down File Type list in the Save dialog, 
> which includes .txt, can be found in NeoOffice or OpenOffice word 
> processors.

In the iWork applications to save in any other format you have to use
the Export option rather than Save / Save As.

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#73807

From	gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz>
Date	2015-04-20 16:18 -0700
Message-ID	<2015042016182312911-xxx@yyyzzz>
In reply to	#73794

On 2015-04-20 18:16:13 +0000, David Ritz said:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message

------BEGIN UNNECESSARY AND IRRELEVANT NOISE-----
Pastas good but don't cook it too long
BingoWasADoggo: Blimty blamty tiddly tampty

>> Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?
> 
> Strictly speaking, text editors can only edit text files.  Editing
> rich text files require applications which can edit rich text, such
> as word processors.

If you really want to be overly literal then word processors can only 
process words.  For the text of the words you'd need to load them into 
a text editor again. Or, thinking, larger, you might want to consider a 
paragraph constructor.

> This means TextEdit isn't exactly a text editor, in the classic sense,
> although it can be used to edit text files.

I'm not sure what is meant by classic in this case except 
"unnecessarily confusing" and pointlessly literal.

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#73813

From	dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com>
Date	2015-04-21 11:38 +1000
Message-ID	<do_ray_me-1CEBA5.11380721042015@aioe.org>
In reply to	#73807

In article <2015042016182312911-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> If you really want to be overly literal then word processors can only 
> process words.  For the text of the words you'd need to load them into 
> a text editor again. Or, thinking, larger, you might want to consider a 
> paragraph constructor.

You will not have the very latter until Artificial Intelligence gets a 
whole lot better.

(btw, it's a nice idea for lots of little apps that do very limited 
things very well rather than ones that try to do everything for 
everyone. It makes the learning curve for each easier, for a start.)

-- 
dorayme

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#73832

From	gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz>
Date	2015-04-21 10:06 -0700
Message-ID	<2015042110061876504-xxx@yyyzzz>
In reply to	#73813

On 2015-04-21 01:38:07 +0000, dorayme said:

> In article <2015042016182312911-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> 
>> If you really want to be overly literal then word processors can only
>> process words.  For the text of the words you'd need to load them into
>> a text editor again. Or, thinking, larger, you might want to consider a
>> paragraph constructor.
> 
> You will not have the very latter until Artificial Intelligence gets a
> whole lot better.
> 
> (btw, it's a nice idea for lots of little apps that do very limited
> things very well rather than ones that try to do everything for
> everyone. It makes the learning curve for each easier, for a start.)

I agree--but it doesn't really make any difference if you just make 
pronouncements that big apps are *intended* to do little tasks.

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#73588

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-19 21:53 -0700
Message-ID	<190420152153079585%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73569

In article <mh1ur2$i5o$8@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> >> It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the capability
> >> to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default text editor to
> >> save ASCII text, but it's done.
> > 
> > You don't lose anything.
> 
> Actually, if what nospam, David Empson, and David Ritz said is true,
> you *do* (temporarily) lose the capability to Save As whenever you set 
> the capability to save to ASCII text in the default editor preferences.

No you do not lose anything.

Let me try to put it into simple terms:

1.  TextEdit Preferences lets you decide whether the default format is
plain text or Rich Text.  It is set to Rich Text at the outset, but if
you want to save most of your documents in Plain Text, you make a
one-time change in Preferences.

2.  If you want to change a document from Plain Text to Rich Text, or
vice versa, you chose "Make Rich Text" or "Make Plain Text" in the
Format Menu.  The keyboard shortcut for toggling this is
command-shift-T.  You can do this any time before *or* after saving the
document, and you can do it as many times as you want.

You do not lose the capability for choosing the sub-types of
formatting; they are all there in the Save-As dialog, but only the ones
that are relevant to the type of document you are saving.

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#73601

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 05:49 +0000
Message-ID	<mh240p$i5o$18@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73588

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152153079585%michelle@michelle.org

> You do not lose the capability for choosing the sub-types of formatting;
> they are all there in the Save-As dialog, but only the ones that are
> relevant to the type of document you are saving.

I belatedly fully agree with you that I was mistaken, mostly misled by 
the Apple-specific meaning of "formatting" versus "saving" (both of which 
are simply saving in the case of a new document).

It's non-intuitive that the default text editor has two different menus 
for *saving* files, one for what Apple calls *formatting* a file (to 
either ASCII or RTF), and the other to *Save As* a variety of other 
formats.

1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text 
2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

I will let the user know to use the two-menu method, and *not* to use the 
preferences method, which is the worst of the possible choices (because 
it hides capabilities).

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#73614

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-19 23:07 -0700
Message-ID	<190420152307086066%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73601

In article <mh240p$i5o$18@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152153079585%michelle@michelle.org
> 
> > You do not lose the capability for choosing the sub-types of formatting;
> > they are all there in the Save-As dialog, but only the ones that are
> > relevant to the type of document you are saving.
> 
> I belatedly fully agree with you that I was mistaken, mostly misled by 
> the Apple-specific meaning of "formatting" versus "saving" (both of which 
> are simply saving in the case of a new document).

There is nothing misleading about formatting a document.  Formatting
does not save the document, and no one here has ever said that it does.

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#73632

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 06:39 +0000
Message-ID	<mh26u7$i5o$35@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#73614

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152307086066%michelle@michelle.org

> There is nothing misleading about formatting a document.  Formatting
> does not save the document, and no one here has ever said that it does.

Assuming users wish to keep their file-format options available, the menu 
sequence Mac users seem to use to save a new document *to* a plain text 
file is:
Format > Make Plain Text, File > Save

When the Mac user wishes to save a new document *as" another format, they 
apparently use a *different* menu sequence, which is:
File > Save > File Format > {other formats}

This difference between "to" and "as" (likewise, between Format & Save 
As") was not obvious, at first.

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#73722

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:08 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150708218482%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#73632

In article <mh26u7$i5o$35@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Assuming users wish to keep their file-format options available, the menu 
> sequence Mac users seem to use to save a new document *to* a plain text 
> file is:
> Format > Make Plain Text, File > Save

Only if the default preference is set to Rich Text; if it is set to
Plain Text, all you need is File > Save.  However, the Save dialog
contains a few options for text encoding in a popup menu.  If the
encoding they want is already selected, they ignore the popup menu.

> When the Mac user wishes to save a new document *as" another format, they 
> apparently use a *different* menu sequence, which is:
> File > Save > File Format > {other formats}

1.  But if the default is Plain Text, they have to choose Format > Make
Rich Text.

2.  If the File Format they want is already selected, they ignore the
popup menu, just like with the text encoding for plain text documents.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

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#73732

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:21 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkgb5Fg4haU6@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#73632

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152307086066%michelle@michelle.org
>
>> There is nothing misleading about formatting a document.  Formatting
>> does not save the document, and no one here has ever said that it does.
>
> Assuming users wish to keep their file-format options available, the menu 
> sequence Mac users seem to use to save a new document *to* a plain text 
> file is:
> Format > Make Plain Text, File > Save
>
> When the Mac user wishes to save a new document *as" another format, they 
> apparently use a *different* menu sequence, which is:
> File > Save > File Format > {other formats}

Wrong. There are only *two* formats available:

* plain text
* rich text

So when the Mac users wishes to save a rich text document, the Mac user
simply saves it! There is no need to visit the format command.

-- 
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I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

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