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What if these two men had formed a company together?

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  What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 07:04 -0700
    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-13 10:13 -0400
      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 07:43 -0700
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-13 16:39 -0500
          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 15:09 -0700
            Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-13 19:00 -0500
              Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-13 20:11 -0400
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-06-13 20:26 -0400
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-13 20:29 -0400
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-06-14 13:49 +1200
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 20:58 -0700
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-06-14 12:38 +0000
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-14 08:40 -0400
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-14 08:39 -0400
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-06-14 14:26 +0000
                    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-14 10:31 -0400
              Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 20:57 -0700
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 21:11 -0700
          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-13 18:16 -0400
            Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-13 19:52 -0500
              Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-13 20:55 -0400
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-13 21:01 -0500
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-13 23:03 -0400
                    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-14 20:40 -0500
                      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-14 23:05 -0400
                        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-15 15:15 -0500
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> - 2015-06-14 00:32 -0400
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-14 08:36 -0400
          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-14 06:17 -0700
            Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-14 09:43 -0400
          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-14 12:36 -0400
      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Otto Pylot <otto@bogus.address.com> - 2015-06-13 08:47 -0700
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? tommyrot@privacy.com (Tom Raider) - 2015-06-13 17:11 +0100
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? "Ed H." <fake@notreal.net> - 2015-06-13 15:38 -0500
          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-13 18:59 -0500
            Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-06-14 12:44 +1200
              Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-06-14 08:44 -0400
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-06-15 12:52 +1200
              Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-14 18:08 -0500
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-14 19:35 -0400
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-14 21:24 -0500
                    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-14 23:05 -0400
                    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-06-15 19:07 +1200
                      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-15 10:08 -0500
                Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-06-15 13:17 +1200
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-14 21:55 -0500
                  Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-14 23:05 -0400
                    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-06-16 11:25 +1200
                      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-15 21:20 -0400
                        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-06-16 18:45 +1200
                          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-06-17 13:19 +1200
                      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-06-16 09:25 +0100
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-06-14 10:20 +1200
      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2015-06-13 14:26 -0400
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 13:59 -0700
        Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2015-06-13 18:59 -0500
          Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2015-06-14 12:10 -0400
    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-06-13 13:41 -0400
      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-06-13 13:58 -0700
    Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-14 05:22 +1000
      Re: What if these two men had formed a company together? nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2015-06-14 05:00 -0600

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#76574

In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506131900450.43505@mako.ath.cx>, David
Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

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> On Saturday, 13 June 2015 18:16 -0400, 
>  in article <130620151816010760%nospam@nospam.invalid>, 
>  nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > it does't matter if a url wraps or breaks on each line, especially 
> > if it's delimited with <>.
> 
> Again, this is something you've inanely repeated too often.  Please 
> provide references and documentation to support your claim.

see david empson's post, portions of which are below:

In article <1m60agp.1m0fi47gqnnkhN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson
<dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> Diamond brackets are a long standing convention for delimiting a URL
> which may have forced line breaks. Many old Mac-based newsreaders
> support it, including Newswatcher deriviatives and MacSOUP. Based on
> complaints elsewhere, it appears that many newsreaders don't recognise
> this.
> 
> It is documented in RFC 2396. See page 33, appendix E "Recommendations
> for Delimiting URI in Context". That RFC was obsoleted by RFC 3986,
> where the same information is repeated in appendix C. RFC 3986 is also
> designated as STD 66.
> 
> " In some cases, extra whitespace (spaces, line-breaks, tabs, etc.) may
>    have to be added to break a long URI across lines.  The whitespace
>    should be ignored when the URI is extracted. "
> 
> [...]
> 
> " Using <> angle brackets around each URI is especially recommended as
>    a delimiting style for URI that contain whitespace. "

...

> > The reality of the situation is that the URL is broken, althouth Thoth
> > is still able to get past the error, when reading.  After all, it's 
> > default line wrap is the source of the the problem.
> 
> It is the newsreaders which can't handle the URL that are broken.

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#76576

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On Saturday, 13 June 2015 20:55 -0400, 
 in article <130620152055324996%nospam@nospam.invalid>, 
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506131900450.43505@mako.ath.cx>, 
>  David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> On Saturday, 13 June 2015 18:16 -0400, 
>>  in article <130620151816010760%nospam@nospam.invalid>, 
>>  nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>>> it does't matter if a url wraps or breaks on each line, especially 
>>> if it's delimited with <>.

>> Again, this is something you've inanely repeated too often.  
>> Please provide references and documentation to support your claim.

> see david empson's post, portions of which are below:

I have read David Empson's post, to which I will reply.

Aren't you repetitive enough, without copying and pasting another 
article in this thread, into your post?

Have you tried any other news readers, to see how many of them respect 
the delimiter in quoted text, as Thoth does?  I suspect not.

I'm wating with baited[sic] breath.

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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#76578

In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506132049430.43505@mako.ath.cx>, David
Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

> >>> it does't matter if a url wraps or breaks on each line, especially 
> >>> if it's delimited with <>.
> 
> >> Again, this is something you've inanely repeated too often.  
> >> Please provide references and documentation to support your claim.
> 
> > see david empson's post, portions of which are below:
> 
> I have read David Empson's post, to which I will reply.
> 
> Aren't you repetitive enough, without copying and pasting another 
> article in this thread, into your post?

you wanted an answer. his answer was very thorough.

> Have you tried any other news readers, to see how many of them respect 
> the delimiter in quoted text, as Thoth does?  I suspect not.

i have tried other newsreaders and none are particularly good. thoth
sucks the least.

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#76631

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On Saturday, 13 June 2015 23:03 -0400, 
 in article <130620152303366048%nospam@nospam.invalid>, 
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506132049430.43505@mako.ath.cx>, 
>  David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> Have you tried any other news readers, to see how many of them 
>> respect the delimiter in quoted text, as Thoth does?  I suspect 
>> not.

> i have tried other newsreaders and none are particularly good. thoth 
> sucks the least.

You have a most interesting way of spelling, "No."

I did not ask you to use some other newsreader.  I asked that you 
observe how newsreaders, other, than Thoth interpreted hard wrapped 
long URLs, regardless the use of a delimiter.

Seeing as my initial question, regarding what different newsreaders 
do, with respect to following the recommendations found in RFC 2396, 
remains unanswered, I did a little survey of my own.

Please note, there was no newly installed software, under any of the 
reported operating systems.  The OS X and Linux installations I used 
are desktop versions; the NetBSD is headless.

==

User agent reading hard line wrapped URLs, even with leading non-white 
space characters within the URL:

    Thoth           (OS X)

User agents identified as reading hard line wrapped URLs, as single 
long line:

    Hogwasher       (OS X: reported elsewhere in this thread)
    Google Groups   (OS and GUI web browser independent)

User agents reading hard wrapped URLs as malformed:

    Sea Monkey      (OS X)
    Thunderbird     (OS X, Linux)
    Unison          (OS X)
    alpine          (Darwin, NetBSD, Linux)
    emacs/gnus      (Darwin, NetBSD, Linux)
    lynx            (Darwin, NetBSD, Linux)
    nn              (NetBSD, Linux)
    pan             (Linux)
    pine            (NetBSD)
    rn              (NetBSD, Linux)
    slrn            (Darwin, NetBSD, Linux)
    tin             (Darwin, NetBSD, Linux)
    trn             (NetBSD, Linux)
    xemacs/gnus     (OS X using X11)

==

If you want to stand by your statement, that there's nothing even 
vaguely unusual with the way wrapped long URLs are interpreted using 
Thoth, try saving such an article as a plain-text document or copy and 
paste the text into a new text document.  If you're able to click or 
use an Open Link contextual pop-up menu and have it reach the intended 
destination, I'll (figuratively) eat my hat.

Also take note that Thoth will save articles using Clasic Mac line 
endings (<CR>), wheile most OS X applications use Unix (<LF>).  Thoth 
is a throwback to Classic Mac.  Still, I use it.

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.


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#76642

In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506141931570.43505@mako.ath.cx>, David
Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

> If you want to stand by your statement, that there's nothing even 
> vaguely unusual with the way wrapped long URLs are interpreted using 
> Thoth, try saving such an article as a plain-text document or copy and 
> paste the text into a new text document.  If you're able to click or 
> use an Open Link contextual pop-up menu and have it reach the intended 
> destination, I'll (figuratively) eat my hat.

i've never had a problem command-clicking links in text documents
regardless of line breaks, other than apple's text edit which doesn't
support command-clicking for some unknown reason.

if command-click doesn't work, then selecting the entire url and
pasting it into the browser does, even with embedded line breaks and/or
<> delimiters.

consider using more up to date software.

> Also take note that Thoth will save articles using Clasic Mac line 
> endings (<CR>), wheile most OS X applications use Unix (<LF>).  Thoth 
> is a throwback to Classic Mac.  Still, I use it.

so what? os x doesn't care. not only does it handle both of those, but
also pc line endings, crlf.

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#76670

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[ misc.phone.mobile.iphone and comp.mobile.ipad trimmed ]

On Sunday, 14 June 2015 23:05 -0400, 
 in article <140620152305035210%nospam@nospam.invalid>, 
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506141931570.43505@mako.ath.cx>, 
>  David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> If you want to stand by your statement, that there's nothing even 
>> vaguely unusual with the way wrapped long URLs are interpreted 
>> using Thoth, try saving such an article as a plain-text document or 
>> copy and paste the text into a new text document.  If you're able 
>> to click or use an Open Link contextual pop-up menu and have it 
>> reach the intended destination, I'll (figuratively) eat my hat.

> i've never had a problem command-clicking links in text documents 
> regardless of line breaks, other than apple's text edit which 
> doesn't support command-clicking for some unknown reason.

In other words, you didn't bother to try the instance in 
<news:130620150704466708%michelle@michelle.org> 
(<http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=143439442100>).

> if command-click doesn't work, then selecting the entire url and 
> pasting it into the browser does, even with embedded line breaks 
> and/or <> delimiters.

This works sometimes,  Soetimes the line break gets interpreted 
as the white space character, 0x2D, interpreted %2D when opened in a 
GUI web browser, causing the load to fail.  Other times it's 
interpreted a simple space, which may or may not end up getting 
ignored in a browser's location window.

> consider using more up to date software.

What would you suggest I update?

OS:

  System Version:   OS X 10.10.3 (14D136)
  Kernel Version:   Darwin 14.3.0; root:xnu-2782.20.48~5/RELEASE_X86_64

OS X recommended GUI applications which fail to correctly recognize a 
delimited URL containing a break, if at all:

  BBEdit:           version 11.1.1 (3730)
  Console:          Version 10.10 (543)
  Firefox:          Version 38.0.5
  Google Chrome:    Version 43.0.2357.124 (64-bit)
  MacVim:           snapshot 73                        [not URL aware]
  NeoOffice:        version 3.4.1 patch 15             [not URL aware]
  Numbers:          version 3.5.3 (2150)               [not URL aware]
  Pages:            version 5.5.3 (2152)               [not URL aware]
  Safari:           Version 8.0.6 (10600.6.3)
  ScriptEditor:     Version 2.7 (176)                  [not URL aware]
  SeaMonkey:        Version 2.33.1
  TextEdit:         Version 1.10 (319) 
  TextWrangler:     version 4.5.12 (3398)
  Thunderbird:      version 38.0.1
  Unison:           Version 2.2
  Xcode:            Version 6.3.2 (6D2105)             [not URL aware]

In many cases, it is OS X, itself, which does not recognize any URL 
containing a line break, delimited or not.  For this reason, CLI news 
user agents and text editors will not recognize long URLs with line 
breaks, even when using the OS X GUI to select the full URL and using 
the Open Link/URL pop-up menu.  In these cases, it is the operating 
system, rather than the application, which does not recognize the long 
URL.

>> Also take note that Thoth will save articles using Classic Mac line 
>> endings (<CR>), wheile most OS X applications use Unix (<LF>).  
>> Thoth is a throwback to Classic Mac.  Still, I use it.

> so what? os x doesn't care. not only does it handle both of those, but
> also pc line endings, crlf.

It's an indication of Thoth's liniage.  Users of other operating 
systems may not be able to correctly decode Classic Mac character sets 
and line breaks.

The encapsulating chevrons convention is not a standard, de facto or 
otherwise.  Compatibility in the real world is far more admirable 
than shouting, repeatedly, that the few remaining newsreaders, which 
were developed for Mac Classic, are the way of the world..

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 "Unless one is a genius, it is best to aim at being intelligible."
                 - Anthony Hope [Sir Anthony Hope Hawkins] (1863-1933)

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#76582

On 2015-06-13 14:43:43 +0000, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:

> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
>>> l-Gates.jpg>
>> 
>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> 
> How so?
> 
> If I could find another NewsWatcher based browser, I'd try it, but thus
> far, I haven't seen any other newsgroup app with an interface that I
> like.

I resemble that remark.

I'm stuck with Unison... and would much rather I had registered Thoth 
when I had the chance.

Compared to MTNW, nothing I've ever found comes even close.
-- 
Conservatives are disappointed with President Obama because he's too liberal.
Liberals are disappointed with President Obama because he's not liberal enough.
Moderates are disappointed with President Obama, but they can't exactly 
put their finger on why.

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#76584

On 2015-06-13 10:43, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
>>> l-Gates.jpg>
>>
>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
>
> How so?

Broke the link in two parts.  My browser doesn't care if it "appears" on 
2 lines, but doesn't usually like a LF or CR or CR/LF in between.

>
> If I could find another NewsWatcher based browser, I'd try it, but thus
> far, I haven't seen any other newsgroup app with an interface that I
> like.
>

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#76590

In article <0fWdnf4vxZf-6ODInZ2dnUU7-VmdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2015-06-13 10:43, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> > <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
> >>> l-Gates.jpg>
> >>
> >> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> >
> > How so?
> 
> Broke the link in two parts.  My browser doesn't care if it "appears" on 
> 2 lines, but doesn't usually like a LF or CR or CR/LF in between.

We've beaten this one to death; it doesn't matter whether the URL is
broken between multiple lines so long as it encapsulated by a pair of <
and >.

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#76591

On 2015-06-14 09:17, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <0fWdnf4vxZf-6ODInZ2dnUU7-VmdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-06-13 10:43, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
>>> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
>>>>> l-Gates.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
>>>
>>> How so?
>>
>> Broke the link in two parts.  My browser doesn't care if it "appears" on
>> 2 lines, but doesn't usually like a LF or CR or CR/LF in between.
>
> We've beaten this one to death; it doesn't matter whether the URL is
> broken between multiple lines so long as it encapsulated by a pair of <
> and >.


Agreed.  Sorry I brought it up.

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#76604

In article <0fWdnf4vxZf-6ODInZ2dnUU7-VmdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> Broke the link in two parts.  My browser doesn't care if it "appears" on 
> 2 lines, but doesn't usually like a LF or CR or CR/LF in between.

what browser is that? 

if an app doesn't make a link clickable i end up needing to copy/paste
it. line endings are stripped, including if there are trailing spaces.

anything that fails to do that is broken.

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#76549

In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > I wonder what the result would have been.
> >
> > -- Michelle
> >
> > <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
> > l-Gates.jpg>
> 
> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> 
>
The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.

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#76550

Otto Pylot <otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:

> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
> > On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > > I wonder what the result would have been.
> > >
> > > -- Michelle
> > >
> > > <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
> > > l-Gates.jpg>
> > 
> > Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> > 
> >
> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.

And here with MacSOUP,  but not with the replies to the original
message. 

-- 
Tom Raider

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#76555

In article <130620150847230759%otto@bogus.address.com>, Otto Pylot
<otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:

> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
> > On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > > I wonder what the result would have been.
> > >
> > > -- Michelle
> > >
> > > <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
> > > l-Gates.jpg>
> > 
> > Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> > 
> >
> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.

Same here

-- 
Ed H.

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#76565

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Saturday, 13 June 2015 15:38 -0500, 
 in article <130620151538471933%fake@notreal.net>, 
 Ed H. <fake@notreal.net> wrote:

> In article <130620150847230759%otto@bogus.address.com>, 
>  Otto Pylot<otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:

>> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, 
>>  Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

>>> On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:

>>>> I wonder what the result would have been.

>>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil 
>>>> l-Gates.jpg>

>>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.

>> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.

> Same here

It only works in Thoth, AFAICT.  The URL appears as wrapped into two 
lines, on the server.

Ed, do you really think your choice of 8bit encoding to be the best 
you can make?

    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Macintosh
    Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

You're using an encoding which isn't often seen, as most Mac users 
have migrated to OS X.  Mac OS Roman traces its origins to Apple 
System 1.

See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_Roman>.

It is likely that Thoth's use of Mac OS Roman is also the likely cause 
of the apostrophe/superscript 1 confustion in anothr thread.

The reality of the situation is that the URL is broken, althouth Thoth 
is still able to get past the error, when reading.  After all, it's 
default line wrap is the source of the the problem.

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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#76572

David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message
> 
> On Saturday, 13 June 2015 15:38 -0500, 
>  in article <130620151538471933%fake@notreal.net>, 
>  Ed H. <fake@notreal.net> wrote:
> 
> > In article <130620150847230759%otto@bogus.address.com>, 
> >  Otto Pylot<otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:
> 
> >> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, 
> >>  Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
> >>> On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> 
> >>>> I wonder what the result would have been.
> 
> >>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
> >>>> l-Gates.jpg>
> 
> >>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> 
> >> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.
> 
> > Same here
> 
> It only works in Thoth, AFAICT.  The URL appears as wrapped into two 
> lines, on the server.

Diamond brackets are a long standing convention for delimiting a URL
which may have forced line breaks. Many old Mac-based newsreaders
support it, including Newswatcher deriviatives and MacSOUP. Based on
complaints elsewhere, it appears that many newsreaders don't recognise
this.

It is documented in RFC 2396. See page 33, appendix E "Recommendations
for Delimiting URI in Context". That RFC was obsoleted by RFC 3986,
where the same information is repeated in appendix C. RFC 3986 is also
designated as STD 66.

" In some cases, extra whitespace (spaces, line-breaks, tabs, etc.) may
   have to be added to break a long URI across lines.  The whitespace
   should be ignored when the URI is extracted. "

[...]

" Using <> angle brackets around each URI is especially recommended as
   a delimiting style for URI that contain whitespace. "

> Ed, do you really think your choice of 8bit encoding to be the best 
> you can make?
> 
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Macintosh
>     Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
> 
> You're using an encoding which isn't often seen, as most Mac users 
> have migrated to OS X.  Mac OS Roman traces its origins to Apple 
> System 1.
> 
> See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_Roman>.
> 
> It is likely that Thoth's use of Mac OS Roman is also the likely cause
> of the apostrophe/superscript 1 confustion in anothr thread.

In that thread, Michelle's post using Thoth claimed it was ISO 8859-1,
but it appears that it was using the wrong character for the apostrophe.

I can't easily tell exactly which character was being used, because
MacSOUP recognised the bastardised ISO 8859-1 and converted everything
to MacRoman for its internal representation.

> The reality of the situation is that the URL is broken, althouth Thoth
> is still able to get past the error, when reading.  After all, it's 
> default line wrap is the source of the the problem.

It is the newsreaders which can't handle the URL that are broken.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#76588

On 2015-06-13 20:44, David Empson wrote:
> David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>> NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message
>>
>> On Saturday, 13 June 2015 15:38 -0500,
>>   in article <130620151538471933%fake@notreal.net>,
>>   Ed H. <fake@notreal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <130620150847230759%otto@bogus.address.com>,
>>>   Otto Pylot<otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>   Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>
>>>>>> I wonder what the result would have been.
>>
>>>>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-and-Bil
>>>>>> l-Gates.jpg>
>>
>>>>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
>>
>>>> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.
>>
>>> Same here
>>
>> It only works in Thoth, AFAICT.  The URL appears as wrapped into two
>> lines, on the server.
>
> Diamond brackets are a long standing convention for delimiting a URL
> which may have forced line breaks. Many old Mac-based newsreaders
> support it, including Newswatcher deriviatives and MacSOUP. Based on
> complaints elsewhere, it appears that many newsreaders don't recognise
> this.

It's an ill thought out convention IMO.  The "source" client should not 
break a link with CR, LF or CR/LF nor other white space.  It should 
simply be one crazy long string.  The addition (or not) of the "diamond" 
could still be included (or not).

The "reading" client could _present_ it broken up for ease of reading 
(if there is such a thing with a really long link) but the link itself 
should never have been broken at the source.

>
> It is documented in RFC 2396. See page 33, appendix E "Recommendations
> for Delimiting URI in Context". That RFC was obsoleted by RFC 3986,
> where the same information is repeated in appendix C. RFC 3986 is also
> designated as STD 66.
>
> " In some cases, extra whitespace (spaces, line-breaks, tabs, etc.) may
>     have to be added to break a long URI across lines.  The whitespace
>     should be ignored when the URI is extracted. "
>
> [...]
>
> " Using <> angle brackets around each URI is especially recommended as
>     a delimiting style for URI that contain whitespace. "
>
>> Ed, do you really think your choice of 8bit encoding to be the best
>> you can make?
>>
>>      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Macintosh
>>      Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
>>
>> You're using an encoding which isn't often seen, as most Mac users
>> have migrated to OS X.  Mac OS Roman traces its origins to Apple
>> System 1.
>>
>> See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_Roman>.
>>
>> It is likely that Thoth's use of Mac OS Roman is also the likely cause
>> of the apostrophe/superscript 1 confustion in anothr thread.
>
> In that thread, Michelle's post using Thoth claimed it was ISO 8859-1,
> but it appears that it was using the wrong character for the apostrophe.
>
> I can't easily tell exactly which character was being used, because
> MacSOUP recognised the bastardised ISO 8859-1 and converted everything
> to MacRoman for its internal representation.
>
>> The reality of the situation is that the URL is broken, althouth Thoth
>> is still able to get past the error, when reading.  After all, it's
>> default line wrap is the source of the the problem.
>
> It is the newsreaders which can't handle the URL that are broken.

It's the spec that's broken, IMO.

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#76625

Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2015-06-13 20:44, David Empson wrote:
> > David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >> NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message
> >>
> >> On Saturday, 13 June 2015 15:38 -0500,
> >>   in article <130620151538471933%fake@notreal.net>,
> >>   Ed H. <fake@notreal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <130620150847230759%otto@bogus.address.com>,
> >>>   Otto Pylot<otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> >>>>   Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>> I wonder what the result would have been.
> >>
> >>>>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Jobs-an
> >>>>>> d-Bil l-Gates.jpg>
> >>
> >>>>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
> >>
> >>>> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.
> >>
> >>> Same here
> >>
> >> It only works in Thoth, AFAICT.  The URL appears as wrapped into two
> >> lines, on the server.
> >
> > Diamond brackets are a long standing convention for delimiting a URL
> > which may have forced line breaks. Many old Mac-based newsreaders
> > support it, including Newswatcher deriviatives and MacSOUP. Based on
> > complaints elsewhere, it appears that many newsreaders don't recognise
> > this.
> 
> It's an ill thought out convention IMO.  The "source" client should not
> break a link with CR, LF or CR/LF nor other white space.  It should 
> simply be one crazy long string.  The addition (or not) of the "diamond"
> could still be included (or not).

That is one change MacSOUP made in a recent version: it normally
enforces a maximum of 72 characters per line, but if the line contains
no white space (such as an unbroken URL) then no line break is forced.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#76621

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On Sunday, 14 June 2015 12:44 +1200, 
 in article <1m60agp.1m0fi47gqnnkhN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>, 
 David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> On Saturday, 13 June 2015 15:38 -0500, 
>>  in article <130620151538471933%fake@notreal.net>, 
>>  Ed H. <fake@notreal.net> wrote:

>>> In article <130620150847230759%otto@bogus.address.com>, 
>>>  Otto Pylot<otto@bogus.address.com> wrote:

>>>> In article <c9ydncJR89MUp-HInZ2dnUU7-KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, 
>>>>  Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

>>>>> On 2015-06-13 10:04, Michelle Steiner wrote:

>>>>>> I wonder what the result would have been.

>>>>>> <http://www.filipiknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Steve-Job
>>>>>> s-and-Bill-Gates.jpg>

>>>>> Get rid of Thoth.  It doesn't post links correctly.
      ^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^^   ^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

Please keep in mind, this poorly conceived response was Alan's, not 
mine.  I use Thoth, but not for posting.

>>>> The link works just fine on my Air with Thoth.

>>> Same here

>> It only works in Thoth, AFAICT.  The URL appears as wrapped into two 
>> lines, on the server.

> Diamond brackets are a long standing convention for delimiting a URL 
> which may have forced line breaks. Many old Mac-based newsreaders 
> support it, including Newswatcher deriviatives and MacSOUP. Based on 
> complaints elsewhere, it appears that many newsreaders don't 
> recognise this.

Oh, I agree completely.  The use of chevrons or angel brackets, as a URL 
delimiter, is a long-standing convention.  I've been using it longer 
than RFC 3986 has been around.

It is not, however, a standard.  I've yet to find an application, GUI 
or CLI, used for text editing, which will recognized this convention 
across multiple lines.

> It is documented in RFC 2396. See page 33, appendix E 
> "Recommendations for Delimiting URI in Context". That RFC was 
> obsoleted by RFC 3986, where the same information is repeated in 
> appendix C. RFC 3986 is also designated as STD 66.

Take a look at the URLs, at the top of Page 34.  Can you get your 
browser of open any of the those wrapped, delimited URLs, using the 
Open Link function?  (The paragraph begins, "Yes, Jim, ..."

Remember, RFC 3986 is a set of recommendations.  It ain't written in 
stone.  Some applications adopted it, in all or in part.  Most, it 
seems, did not.

I saved the original message in this thread, from a news server, to my 
iCloud inbox.  Apple Mail believes the URL is terminated, at the line 
break.  When you click on the wrapped URL, your GUI web browser will 
attempt to load the malformed URL.

>> The reality of the situation is that the URL is broken, although 
>> Thoth is still able to get past the error, when reading.  After 
>> all, it's default line wrap is the source of the the problem.

> It is the newsreaders which can't handle the URL that are broken.

That is your opinion, however Thoth remains unique among current news 
user applications which run on current releases of the OS X operating 
system.  You are ignoring all the others, as well as newsreaders 
running on other platforms.  All I'm suggesting is that one should be 
aware of the limitations of whatever one is using as a NNTP posting 
client.  It's also useful to be aware of how others, who are not part 
of a very small clique of Thoth users, might see your post.

There is no perfect newsreader.

<aside>
I will reply separately to nospam, who thought pasting your article 
into the body of their message, was somehow a response to the question 
asked, rather than the dodge it is.
</aside>

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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#76622

In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1506141711090.43505@mako.ath.cx>, David
Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:

> >> It only works in Thoth, AFAICT.  The URL appears as wrapped into two 
> >> lines, on the server.
> 
> > Diamond brackets are a long standing convention for delimiting a URL 
> > which may have forced line breaks. Many old Mac-based newsreaders 
> > support it, including Newswatcher deriviatives and MacSOUP. Based on 
> > complaints elsewhere, it appears that many newsreaders don't 
> > recognise this.
> 
> Oh, I agree completely.  The use of chevrons or angel brackets, as a URL 
> delimiter, is a long-standing convention.  I've been using it longer 
> than RFC 3986 has been around.
> 
> It is not, however, a standard.  I've yet to find an application, GUI 
> or CLI, used for text editing, which will recognized this convention 
> across multiple lines.

then you haven't looked very hard.

textwrangler & bbedit both do it, as do many other apps.

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