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Thoth and dictation under Mavericks

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  Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-07 11:19 +0000
    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-07 12:43 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-01-07 08:51 -0700
        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-01-07 16:41 +0000
        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-07 16:43 +0000
          Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-01-07 10:03 -0700
    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2014-01-07 12:48 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-07 12:50 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks M-M <nospam.m-m@ny.more> - 2014-01-07 09:33 -0500
        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-07 09:56 -0800
          Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Mark - 2014-01-07 18:35 +0000
            Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 09:44 -0800
              Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 17:54 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-08 13:42 -0500
                  Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 13:59 -0800
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2014-01-08 23:45 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 18:44 -0800
              Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-08 18:35 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2014-01-08 19:27 +0000
                  Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Mr Guest <tom@guest-spamtrap.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 19:46 +0000
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 20:31 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Mr Guest <tom@guest-spamtrap.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 21:00 +0000
                  Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 14:00 -0800
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-08 22:08 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-08 15:40 -0800
                        Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-09 08:43 +0000
                    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks jim@magrathea.plus.com (Jim) - 2014-01-09 19:03 +0000
                      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2014-01-09 12:04 -0800
              Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-01-08 11:34 -0800
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-08 20:28 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 20:32 +0000
                Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-01-08 14:52 -0700
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-07 14:49 +0000
    Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-01-07 13:22 +0000
      Re: Thoth and dictation under Mavericks Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-01-07 14:50 +0000

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#54469 — Thoth and dictation under Mavericks

I thought dictation was supposed to operate in any situation where
keyboard input is active. However it doesn't seem to work in Thoth. The
Thoth Edit menu has a "Start dictation" entry but choosing it (of the
Fn Fn shortcut) does nothing.

Anyone know anything about this?

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
 lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores 
 the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them
 into it in the first place."                             - Douglas Adams

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#54470

In article <070120141119116142%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> I thought dictation was supposed to operate in any situation where
> keyboard input is active. However it doesn't seem to work in Thoth. The
> Thoth Edit menu has a "Start dictation" entry but choosing it (of the
> Fn Fn shortcut) does nothing.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?


I am seeing the same behaviour. The Start Dictation command, when
issued in Thoth, becomes active in the next application you bring to
the front. I am not surprised at Thoth's misbehaviour, it is still
using some fossilised input method that was once better than average in
old style MacOS. For instance you can't delete words with with
alt-arrow and none of the other faux Emacs keystrokes work.

It is still one of the better remaining newsreaders.

-- 
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810  E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

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#54479

In article <070120141243429484%nospam@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper
<nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

>  I am not surprised at Thoth's misbehaviour, it is still
> using some fossilised input method that was once better than average in
> old style MacOS. For instance you can't delete words with with
> alt-arrow and none of the other faux Emacs keystrokes work.

I trust that you mean alt forward-delete, not alt arrow.

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#54482

In message <070120140851481827%michelle@michelle.org> 
  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <070120141243429484%nospam@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper
> <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

>>  I am not surprised at Thoth's misbehaviour, it is still
>> using some fossilised input method that was once better than average in
>> old style MacOS. For instance you can't delete words with with
>> alt-arrow and none of the other faux Emacs keystrokes work.

> I trust that you mean alt forward-delete, not alt arrow.

Alt-right moves to the next word, and alt-left moves to the previous
word. This is very useful in Safari URL field.

Option-delete and shift-option-delete delete words and option up/down
move up/down paragraphs.

I use ctrl-a, e, k, y, and t, though there are others.

-- 
I know it all. I just can't remember it simultaneously.

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#54483

In article <070120140851481827%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <070120141243429484%nospam@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper
> <nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >  I am not surprised at Thoth's misbehaviour, it is still
> > using some fossilised input method that was once better than average in
> > old style MacOS. For instance you can't delete words with with
> > alt-arrow and none of the other faux Emacs keystrokes work.
> 
> I trust that you mean alt forward-delete, not alt arrow.

Yes. My mistake. I meant alt-either-direction-delete. More precisely,
Thoth's deletion is not affected by alt's pressedness as it is in Cocoa
flavoured input.

-- 
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810  E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

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#54484

In article <070120141643262261%nospam@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper
<nospam@yrl.co.uk> wrote:

> > >  I am not surprised at Thoth's misbehaviour, it is still
> > > using some fossilised input method that was once better than average in
> > > old style MacOS. For instance you can't delete words with with
> > > alt-arrow and none of the other faux Emacs keystrokes work.
> > 
> > I trust that you mean alt forward-delete, not alt arrow.
> 
> Yes. My mistake. I meant alt-either-direction-delete. More precisely,
> Thoth's deletion is not affected by alt's pressedness as it is in Cocoa
> flavoured input.

I believe that is true of all Carbon based apps unless explicitly coded
into the app.

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#54471

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:19:11 +0000, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

>I thought dictation was supposed to operate in any situation where
>keyboard input is active. However it doesn't seem to work in Thoth. The
>Thoth Edit menu has a "Start dictation" entry but choosing it (of the
>Fn Fn shortcut) does nothing.

Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
another app, like TextEdit?

>Anyone know anything about this?

Not directly, but I can tell you that dictation even works into a
Windows program running in VMware's "Unity" mode, with the mic box
pointing at it, so it certainly *ought* to work.

Unless it's one of those Cocoa vs Carbon things. Is Thoth that old?

	Cheers - Jaimie
-- 
  'Rings!  Rings!  Wherever they may be
   I am the Lord of the Rings,' said he
  'And I'll find them all, wherever they may be
   And I'll bind them all in the dark,' said he   -- Kevin Ahearn

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#54472

In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

<snip>
> 
> Unless it's one of those Cocoa vs Carbon things. Is Thoth that old?
Yep

-- 
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810  E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

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#54476

In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> another app, like TextEdit?

Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.

-- 
m-m
photo gallery:
http://mhmyers.com

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#54485

On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:

> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
> 
>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>> another app, like TextEdit?
> 
> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.

What does FN FN mean?

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#54491

On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:

> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
> 
>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>> 
>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
> 
> What does FN FN mean?

Press the 'fn' key twice.

Cheers ... Mark

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#54506

On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:

> On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
> 
>> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>> 
>>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>> 
>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>> 
>> What does FN FN mean?
> 
> Press the 'fn' key twice.

I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys 
were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key 
or the ⌘ key?

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#54507

On 08/01/2014 17:44, gtr wrote:
> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
>
>> On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
>>
>>> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>>>
>>>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>>>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>>>
>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>>
>>> What does FN FN mean?
>>
>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
>
> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys were
> F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key or the
> ⌘ key?
>

Bottom left!  I had to search for it too.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

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#54511

In article <Thgzu.2028$PK6.1498@fx10.fr7>, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> >>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> >>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
> >>>>
> >>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
> >>>
> >>> What does FN FN mean?
> >>
> >> Press the 'fn' key twice.
> >
> > I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys were
> > F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key or the
> > ? key?
> 
> Bottom left!  I had to search for it too.

not all mac keyboards have an fn key.

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#54525

On 2014-01-08 18:42:23 +0000, nospam said:

> In article <Thgzu.2028$PK6.1498@fx10.fr7>, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What does FN FN mean?
>>>> 
>>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
>>> 
>>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys were
>>> F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key or the
>>> ? key?
>> 
>> Bottom left!  I had to search for it too.
> 
> not all mac keyboards have an fn key.

Bottom lef is my control key.

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#54529

gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2014-01-08 18:42:23 +0000, nospam said:
> 
> > In article <Thgzu.2028$PK6.1498@fx10.fr7>, Graeme Wall
> > <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> >>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> >>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> >>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> What does FN FN mean?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
> >>> 
> >>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys were
> >>> F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key or the
> >>> ? key?
> >> 
> >> Bottom left!  I had to search for it too.
> > 
> > not all mac keyboards have an fn key.
> 
> Bottom lef is my control key.

Looing at the Apple keyboard latous here
<http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2841?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US>

the Bluetooth wirless and laptop have the fn key in bottom left hand
corner

The keyboard with numeric pad has it as the top left key in the block of
6, they key above delete.


-- 
Mark

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#54530

On 2014-01-08 23:45:50 +0000, Mark Bestley said:

> gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-01-08 18:42:23 +0000, nospam said:
>> 
>>> In article <Thgzu.2028$PK6.1498@fx10.fr7>, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>>>>>>>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>>>>>>>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What does FN FN mean?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Press the 'fn' key twice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys were
>>>>> F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key or the
>>>>> ? key?
>>>> 
>>>> Bottom left!  I had to search for it too.
>>> 
>>> not all mac keyboards have an fn key.
>> 
>> Bottom lef is my control key.
> 
> Looing at the Apple keyboard latous here
> <http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2841?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US>
> 
> the Bluetooth wirless and laptop have the fn key in bottom left hand
> corner
> 
> The keyboard with numeric pad has it as the top left key in the block of
> 6, they key above delete.

I see.  My Logitech S530 Mac extended keyboard has no fn key.  That 
"block of 6", has only five: Home, End, Page Up, Page Down, and Delete. 
 I do remember than fn key on my wife's abandoned MacBook.  As a big 
hot-key user it was a real inconvenienc.e

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#54509

In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
> 
> > On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
> > 
> >> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
> >> 
> >>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
> >>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
> >>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
> >>>> another app, like TextEdit?
> >>> 
> >>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
> >> 
> >> What does FN FN mean?
> > 
> > Press the 'fn' key twice.
> 
> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys 
> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key 
> or the ? key?

No. On the extended keyboard it's underneath the F13 key and above the
delete (not backspace) key.

You use it to override the fact that many of the function keys are
taken for things like screen brightness etc. To make them actually be
real function keys you have to press e.g. fn + f2. Have a look at the
Keyboard System Prefs pane.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#54514

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:35:18 +0000, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

>In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
>> 
>> > On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
>> > 
>> >> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>> >> 
>> >>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>> >>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the window
>> >>>> you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it happen for
>> >>>> another app, like TextEdit?
>> >>> 
>> >>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>> >> 
>> >> What does FN FN mean?
>> > 
>> > Press the 'fn' key twice.
>> 
>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys 
>> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key 
>> or the ? key?
>
>No. On the extended keyboard it's underneath the F13 key and above the
>delete (not backspace) key.

On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
I don't have any here to try it.

	Cheers - Jaimie
-- 
To every complex problem there is a solution which is simple, neat and wrong.
                                                               -- HL Mencken

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#54516

Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote (apparently) in uk.comp.sys.mac on Wed 08 Jan
2014 19:27:55: 

> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 18:35:18 +0000, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
>>In article <2014010809445752787-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2014-01-07 18:35:04 +0000, Mark said:
>>> 
>>> > On 2014-01-07 17:56:04 +0000, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> said:
>>> > 
>>> >> On 2014-01-07 14:33:18 +0000, M-M said:
>>> >> 
>>> >>> In article <kmtnc9htedsk423r61jq48i6djgfqrssun@4ax.com>, Jaimie
>>> >>> Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>> >>> 
>>> >>>> Fn Fn should pop up a little dictation mic box pointing at the
>>> >>>> window you're going to dictate into; does that happen? Does it
>>> >>>> happen for another app, like TextEdit?
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> Fn Fn does not work in Thoth. It works for other apps.
>>> >> 
>>> >> What does FN FN mean?
>>> > 
>>> > Press the 'fn' key twice.
>>> 
>>> I have no key labeled FN.  Back in ye olden times the function keys 
>>> were F1, F2, F3...  Is that the same as what I call the "pretzel" key 
>>> or the ? key?
>>
>>No. On the extended keyboard it's underneath the F13 key and above the
>>delete (not backspace) key.
> 
> On older keyboards it may be the similarly placed key marked 'help' -
> I don't have any here to try it.
> 
>      Cheers - Jaimie

Having tripped over my Apple USB Keyboard at the weekend it doesn't have 
one and the Help key does nothing similar, suggestions are to remap the 
keyboard to achieve this. This is hooked up to my MBP 13" that does have 
one and works as suggested (after download). Guess I need to find out what 
the other commands are other than "new paragraph", "full stop" and 
"comma".
-- 
MrGuest
Always, seemingly, on the road to nowhere

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