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Naive question about Mail - or mailers

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  Naive question about Mail - or mailers Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> - 2013-11-05 09:33 +0000
    Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers billy@MIX.COM - 2013-11-05 17:30 +0000
      Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers befr@eaglesoft.de (Bernd Fröhlich) - 2013-11-05 19:09 +0100
        Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-05 11:21 -0700
          Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-11-05 15:35 -0600
            Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-06 08:20 +0000
          Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2013-11-05 15:51 -0700
            Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-11-06 18:33 +1300
          Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-05 17:49 -0700
            Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers John White <jccw@comcast.net> - 2013-11-05 23:32 -0500
              Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-06 08:13 -0700
      Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Ted Lee <tmplee@mr.net> - 2013-11-05 12:10 -0600
      Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> - 2013-11-06 17:42 +0000
        Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2013-11-06 12:34 -0700
          Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-07 01:25 +0000
        Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers rcp27g@gmail.com - 2013-11-07 01:52 -0800
          Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers John White <jccw@comcast.net> - 2013-11-07 06:54 -0500
            Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2013-11-07 12:08 -0700
              Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-08 09:03 +1300
              Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2013-11-07 14:54 -0700
                Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> - 2013-11-07 16:29 -0600
                Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-07 22:53 +0000
                  Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Ted Lee <tmplee@mr.net> - 2013-11-07 17:06 -0600
              Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-07 22:25 -0700
          Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-08 09:13 +1300
            Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-07 16:24 -0500
    Re: Naive question about Mail - or mailers Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2013-11-06 09:25 +1300

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#51872 — Naive question about Mail - or mailers

I used [the blessed] Eudora/POP for mail for decades. Due to various 
pressures that had built up in the world of computing over the years, I 
finally had to abandon it and reluctantly started to use Apple's Mail in 
2010.  (A mailer which is more complicated, but not as powerful as 
Eudora.)

Coincidentally I also had to start to use Gmail (I retired, and had to 
give up my university email account).  

So I'm using Mail as an agent for Gmail.

Whereas with Eudora and POP I had total control over all my email, and I 
knew where it all was, and what state it was all in, that whole scenario 
has now gone.  I can't tell what Mail is doing half the time, and ditto 
for Gmail (with knobs on).

I'd love to tidy up the Mail folders on my Mac,  but, for example,  
every time I delete everything in "All Mail" (it seems to be a 
completely unnecessary folder on the Mac), the two of them (Mail and 
Gmail) doggedly re-fill the folder from "All Mail" stored on Gmail. 

Is there any way I can get back control of my own email, or do I just 
continue allowing Apple's Mail and Google's Gmail to take control of 
this part of my life?  

Incidentally my email is now about 1/50th of the bulk it was while I was  
working, so there's no huge mailing strategy needed here.

Cheers
John

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#51887

Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> writes:

> Is there any way I can get back control of my own email

Take a look here -

http://tidbits.com/article/10253

This article may become the most cited in this group.  Heh.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number

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#51890

<billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> http://tidbits.com/article/10253
> 
> This article may become the most cited in this group.  Heh.

Don´t forget this:
<http://tidbits.com/article/14219>

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#51892

In article <1lbvmj7.1ikvi6h1p8d9uiN%befr@eaglesoft.de>, Bernd Fröhlich
<befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:

> <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> 
> > http://tidbits.com/article/10253
> > 
> > This article may become the most cited in this group.  Heh.
> 
> Don´t forget this:
> <http://tidbits.com/article/14219>

Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?

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#51901

On 2013-11-05 18:21:07 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

> In article <1lbvmj7.1ikvi6h1p8d9uiN%befr@eaglesoft.de>, Bernd Fröhlich
> <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:
> 
>> <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
>> 
>>> http://tidbits.com/article/10253
>>> 
>>> This article may become the most cited in this group.  Heh.
>> 
>> Don´t forget this:
>> <http://tidbits.com/article/14219>
> 
> Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
> that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?

I haven't had any problems with mail.app, not even with Gmail.  I will 
admit I don't use Gmail for much of anything though.

I'm using it with Outlook mail (MS's replacement for live mail), iCloud 
mail and Yahoo.

-- 
Lloyd

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#51914

In message <l5bob0$aiu$1@dont-email.me> 
  Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-05 18:21:07 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

>> In article <1lbvmj7.1ikvi6h1p8d9uiN%befr@eaglesoft.de>, Bernd Fröhlich
>> <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:
>> 
>>> <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> http://tidbits.com/article/10253
>>>> 
>>>> This article may become the most cited in this group.  Heh.
>>> 
>>> Don´t forget this:
>>> <http://tidbits.com/article/14219>
>> 
>> Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
>> that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?

> I haven't had any problems with mail.app, not even with Gmail.  I will 
> admit I don't use Gmail for much of anything though.

Same here.

> I'm using it with Outlook mail (MS's replacement for live mail), iCloud 
> mail and Yahoo.

Gmail, iCloud, and 5 other IMAP accounts.


-- 
Looking into Granny's eyes was like looking into a mirror. What you saw
looking back at you was yourself, and there was no hiding place.

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#51904

Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> wrote:

> Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
> that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?

Yes. Check the discussions at Apple. 

I wasn't using Mail for Gmail IMAP, but the Mavericks version was still
a disaster for me. It would always quit when I attempted to view a
message. Some other users had the same problem. After starting over
completely (no prefs or accounts or ~/Library/Mail folder), I was able
to get Mail to do pretty much everything _except_ view messages, making
it essentially useless as an email client. 

A lot of users seem to be pleased with Mavericks, but a substantial
number have experienced a bewildering variety of problems with it. IMHO,
Mavericks may be the buggiest point zero release of OS X for many years,
perhaps as far back as 10.2. 

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#51912

Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> wrote:
> 
> > Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
> > that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?
> 
> Yes. Check the discussions at Apple. 
> 
> I wasn't using Mail for Gmail IMAP, but the Mavericks version was still
> a disaster for me. It would always quit when I attempted to view a
> message. Some other users had the same problem. After starting over
> completely (no prefs or accounts or ~/Library/Mail folder), I was able
> to get Mail to do pretty much everything _except_ view messages, making
> it essentially useless as an email client. 
> 
> A lot of users seem to be pleased with Mavericks, but a substantial
> number have experienced a bewildering variety of problems with it. IMHO,
> Mavericks may be the buggiest point zero release of OS X for many years,
> perhaps as far back as 10.2. 

Surely not worse than 10.5? I've not heard of many issues from people In
know running 10.9. But there are always plenty to go around with a new
release. I prefer to wait before upgrading.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#51905

In article <051120131121075149%foo@bar.com>, Michelle Steiner
<foo@bar.com> wrote:

> Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
> that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?

Actually, I found one:  the mail icon on the Dock never shows the badge
indicating the number of unread messages, at least on my system it
doesn't.

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#51911

In article <051120131749534777%foo@bar.com>,
 Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> wrote:

> In article <051120131121075149%foo@bar.com>, Michelle Steiner
> <foo@bar.com> wrote:
> 
> > Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
> > that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?
> 
> Actually, I found one:  the mail icon on the Dock never shows the badge
> indicating the number of unread messages, at least on my system it
> doesn't.

That feature works just fine for me.

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#51920

In article <jccw-40BAD8.23320505112013@mx05.eternal-september.org>,
John White <jccw@comcast.net> wrote:

> In article <051120131749534777%foo@bar.com>,
>  Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <051120131121075149%foo@bar.com>, Michelle Steiner
> > <foo@bar.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Other than G-mail problems are there any new problems (i.e., problems
> > > that didn't exist in Mountain Lion) with mail.app in Mavericks?
> > 
> > Actually, I found one:  the mail icon on the Dock never shows the badge
> > indicating the number of unread messages, at least on my system it
> > doesn't.
> 
> That feature works just fine for me.

I had a hunch that it was not a universal problem because I haven't
seen anyone else complain about it.

I had Dockstar installed, but it's not compatible with Mavericks, and
will not be upgraded for 10.9 or later; even though I had uninstalled
Dockstar, I suspect that there's something left over that's affecting
the mail.app badge.

[later]  I just removed some lingering Dockstar files that the
uninstaller didn't catch, then relaunched mail.app; it didn't help. 
Next step is to log out and log back in.

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#51891

On 11/5/13, 11:30 AM, billy@MIX.COM wrote:
> http://tidbits.com/article/10253
>
> This article may become the most cited in this group.  Heh.
Thanks for reposting that. (I'm sure somebody else did already.)
While I don't use IMAP and Mail, my wife does, although we can't upgrade 
her machine to Mavericks (it's a well-running older PPC mini.)  I use 
Thunderbird and may consider switching to using IMAP since there is some 
weird behavior with POP that possibly will be better with IMAP because 
that article does a good job of explaining exactly what's going on.

Ted

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#51924

In article <l5b9ut$eav$5@reader2.panix.com>, billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Is there any way I can get back control of my own email
> 
> Take a look here -
> 
> http://tidbits.com/article/10253

Aye -- I gratefully saw, read, re-read and re-re-read that article when 
it was published (Hoorah for good ol' TidBits!!).   

I will re-read the article again, now -- I may understand it better, a 
year or so on from switching to Mail/Gmail.  BTW I've also got TidBits 
"Take Control of Apple Mail in Snow Leopard" -- maybe that also will 
make more sense these days.


What I was hoping for -- which is obviously now not going to happen -- 
was for someone to say  "Why dontcha just use [unheard of fantastic mail 
program] with POP on Gmail?".

I suppose I'm also fairly unique these days in that I almost only ever 
use email on my Mac on my desk: I *could* use POP (and delete from 
server).  In fact why don't I look into doing that using Mail/Gmail.....

Thanks all
John

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#51932

Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What I was hoping for -- which is obviously now not going to happen --
> was for someone to say  "Why dontcha just use [unheard of fantastic mail
> program] with POP on Gmail?".

The reason that one person didn't offer that advice is that he didn't
want to ignite yet another quarrel about POP versus IMAP or get an
exasperated response about POP being some kind of relic from the
computer stone age. 

> I suppose I'm also fairly unique these days in that I almost only ever
> use email on my Mac on my desk: I *could* use POP (and delete from 
> server).  In fact why don't I look into doing that using Mail/Gmail.....

You can do that, and you won't need a "fantastic" mail program. Any
decent POP email client will do. But there is a caveat: my experience
with POP  on Gmail is that once you a message has been read, Gmail's
server will not report it as being in the Inbox for subsequent POP
client inquiries. You can instruct the Gmail server to retain read
messages in its Inbox, but Mail's "Get Account Info" -- or any other
client's POP monitor -- won't show the read messages in the server's
Inbox. You'll need to go to your Gmail web page to see them. This is not
a problem if you only read mail from one device, but it puts a severe
crimp on accessing Gmail POP from multiple devices. 

In addition, my experience is that Gmail ignores deletion commands from
POP clients. Whether it's IMAP or POP, Gmail does things its own way. If
you want an email service that follows standards, you'll have to follow
Joe Kissell's example and look elsewhere. 

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#51947

In message <1lbwwk4.1enbgbu1s4v9fkN%nmassello@yahoo.com> 
  Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> What I was hoping for -- which is obviously now not going to happen --
>> was for someone to say  "Why dontcha just use [unheard of fantastic mail
>> program] with POP on Gmail?".

> The reason that one person didn't offer that advice is that he didn't
> want to ignite yet another quarrel about POP versus IMAP or get an
> exasperated response about POP being some kind of relic from the
> computer stone age. 

Well, as long as you understand all of that, no need to rehash it again.

> You can do that, and you won't need a "fantastic" mail program. Any
> decent POP email client will do. But there is a caveat: my experience
> with POP  on Gmail is that once you a message has been read, Gmail's
> server will not report it as being in the Inbox for subsequent POP
> client inquiries.

Also, "Deleted" messages are not deleted, they are still in "All Mail" in Gmail.

> In addition, my experience is that Gmail ignores deletion commands from
> POP clients. Whether it's IMAP or POP, Gmail does things its own way. If
> you want an email service that follows standards, you'll have to follow
> Joe Kissell's example and look elsewhere. 

GMail is great for what it is, but it should not be confused with a real
email account. It is unique, and that is good in some ways and terrible
in others.

-- 
"A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first
thought of." - Burt Bacharach

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#51974

On Wednesday, 6 November 2013 18:42:10 UTC+1, Another John  wrote:
> 
> What I was hoping for -- which is obviously now not going to happen -- 
> was for someone to say  "Why dontcha just use [unheard of fantastic mail 
> program] with POP on Gmail?".
> 
> I suppose I'm also fairly unique these days in that I almost only ever 
> use email on my Mac on my desk: I *could* use POP (and delete from 
> server).  In fact why don't I look into doing that using Mail/Gmail.....

I think the root of your problem is not migrating from Eudora to Mail, but from migrating to a (most likely standards-compliant) university email server to Gmail.  Gmail does not behave in the way an email server is intended to behave, so while it communicates via POP or IMAP, because it stores and processes mail in its own "special" way, any email client you use with it will do strange things.

Personally, having used Gmail since the days of invitation only, I am finally getting annoyed enough with it that I wish to find an alternative.  Still deciding which way to go, though.

Robin

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#51976

In article <786438be-42e9-4ab1-8156-dd320c30db60@googlegroups.com>,
 rcp27g@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, 6 November 2013 18:42:10 UTC+1, Another John  wrote:
> > 
> > What I was hoping for -- which is obviously now not going to happen -- 
> > was for someone to say  "Why dontcha just use [unheard of fantastic mail 
> > program] with POP on Gmail?".
> > 
> > I suppose I'm also fairly unique these days in that I almost only ever 
> > use email on my Mac on my desk: I *could* use POP (and delete from 
> > server).  In fact why don't I look into doing that using Mail/Gmail.....
> 
> I think the root of your problem is not migrating from Eudora to Mail, but 
> from migrating to a (most likely standards-compliant) university email server 
> to Gmail.  Gmail does not behave in the way an email server is intended to 
> behave, so while it communicates via POP or IMAP, because it stores and 
> processes mail in its own "special" way, any email client you use with it 
> will do strange things.
> 
> Personally, having used Gmail since the days of invitation only, I am finally 
> getting annoyed enough with it that I wish to find an alternative.  Still 
> deciding which way to go, though.
> 
> Robin

Rumor has it that there will be an update to the Mail application, 
intended to make it play better with gmail, fairly soon. It might make 
sense to put up with the current annoyances for a little longer.

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#52001

John White <jccw@comcast.net> wrote:

> Rumor has it that there will be an update to the Mail application, 
> intended to make it play better with gmail

At which point the similarity of today's Google to the old Microsoft
becomes even more evident. Apple frequently had to add special
provisions to Mac OS in order to accommodate the Microsoft's, especially
Word's, way of doing things. 

BTW, the rumor is that 10.9.2 is already in the pipeline. 

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#52015

In article <1lbyry6.ndbz54pmn5kkN%nmassello@yahoo.com>, Neill Massello
<nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
> John White <jccw@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Rumor has it that there will be an update to the Mail application, 
> > intended to make it play better with gmail
> 
> At which point the similarity of today's Google to the old Microsoft
> becomes even more evident. Apple frequently had to add special
> provisions to Mac OS in order to accommodate the Microsoft's, especially
> Word's, way of doing things. 
> 
> BTW, the rumor is that 10.9.2 is already in the pipeline. 

Yep, Microsoft is always ignoring the established standards, making up
their own rules, and then trying to enforce everyone else to do things
their way - not only with Office, but more so with the Internet thanks
to the virtual monopoly of Internet Explorer (now thankfully fading). 

Web developers often have to write code specifically to get Explorer to
do what it should, or lazy developers (especially in Government
websites) insist on you using Explorer so they don't have to cater for
the other browsers which are actually doing things the correct way. :-(

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#52030

Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:

> BTW, the rumor is that 10.9.2 is already in the pipeline. 

And the Mavericks Mail update is already out. 

<http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1703>

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