Groups > comp.sys.mac.misc > #6717 > unrolled thread

Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?

Started by	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
First post	2018-11-07 21:59 -0800
Last post	2018-11-08 20:22 +0000
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#6717 — Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-07 21:59 -0800
Subject	Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?
Message-ID	<2018110721595581963-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>

Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing passcodes on a desktop Mac?

Tony

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#6718

From	Calum <com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat>
Date	2018-11-08 12:31 +0000
Message-ID	<ps1abr$1fah$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6717

On 08/11/2018 05:59, Tom Evans wrote:
> Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing passcodes on a desktop 
> Mac?

Depends on what you mean by "safe". If nobody else has physical access 
to that desktop Mac, it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync 
the keychain via iCloud to any other Mac. But there have been occasional 
bugs:
<https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pak37n/macos-keychain-theft-issue-shows-you-cant-just-trust-apple-to-keep-you-secure>

If you do sync, and you have two-factor authentication enabled on your 
Apple account, then your keychain is transmitted and stored in iCloud 
with end-to-end encryption, using keys derived from information unique 
to your device. So it's still very safe, but with the additional tiny 
risk that the encryption could somehow be buggy and crackable, and that 
a hacker then chose to breach your Apple account out of the hundreds of 
millions they could have chosen.

If anyone else has physical access to the Mac, it's as safe as your user 
account password, and not even that safe if your screensaver doesn't 
lock your screen. You do have the option to set up a separate keychain 
password, which can help a bit... but in general, once someone has 
physical access to a machine, all security bets are off.

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#6725

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-08 13:51 -0800
Message-ID	<2018110813514766717-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6718

Thanks, Callum.

The reason I asked if Keychain is safe is because a robber tried 
(unsuccessfully) to steal $1,700 from one of my credit cards by calling 
my bank and impersonating me yesterday.  The bank employee I spoke with 
after the bank alerted me said that the thief knew my security 
questions that were asked of him.

I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank 
information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my 
Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)

My credit card account online showed that $1,700 was added to my credit 
card debt yesterday, but a bank employee flagged the transaction as 
suspicious and the bank then reinstated that money to my account and a 
bank employee phoned me and left a message in my voice mail, asking me 
to phone the bank immediately to ask me about this issue.

The bank deactivated both of my credit cards and both of my debit cards 
yesterday, so I'm getting replacement cards, but the process is 
troublesome.  I want to try to figure out how the breach migh have 
happened, so I can prevent another attack.

I called Apple and two technicians on the phone said it's safe (from 
hackers) to store sensitive info on the Mac even in a text program, and 
that I don't need an anti-virus program.

Tom

On 2018-11-08 12:31:56 +0000, Calum said:

> On 08/11/2018 05:59, Tom Evans wrote:
>> Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing passcodes on a desktop Mac?
> 
> Depends on what you mean by "safe". If nobody else has physical access 
> to that desktop Mac, it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't 
> sync the keychain via iCloud to any other Mac. But there have been 
> occasional bugs:
> <https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pak37n/macos-keychain-theft-issue-shows-you-cant-just-trust-apple-to-keep-you-secure> 
> 
> 
> If you do sync, and you have two-factor authentication enabled on your 
> Apple account, then your keychain is transmitted and stored in iCloud 
> with end-to-end encryption, using keys derived from information unique 
> to your device. So it's still very safe, but with the additional tiny 
> risk that the encryption could somehow be buggy and crackable, and that 
> a hacker then chose to breach your Apple account out of the hundreds of 
> millions they could have chosen.
> 
> If anyone else has physical access to the Mac, it's as safe as your 
> user account password, and not even that safe if your screensaver 
> doesn't lock your screen. You do have the option to set up a separate 
> keychain password, which can help a bit... but in general, once someone 
> has physical access to a machine, all security bets are off.

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#6726

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2018-11-08 17:10 -0500
Message-ID	<081120181710588695%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#6725

In article <2018110813514766717-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
<tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> 
> The reason I asked if Keychain is safe is because a robber tried 
> (unsuccessfully) to steal $1,700 from one of my credit cards by calling 
> my bank and impersonating me yesterday.  The bank employee I spoke with 
> after the bank alerted me said that the thief knew my security 
> questions that were asked of him.

likely because you gave real answers to the insecurity questions.

most of those are public information, such as what was your first car,
or can be easily determined with a bit of digging, such as what street
you grew up on or who was your 1st grade teacher.

or the information was compromised in another breach.

> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank 
> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my 
> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)

that's *not* a good idea.

> I called Apple and two technicians on the phone said it's safe (from 
> hackers) to store sensitive info on the Mac even in a text program, and 
> that I don't need an anti-virus program.

anti-virus apps won't stop a password cracker. all they need is a copy
of your text file...

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#6734

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-08 20:55 -0800
Message-ID	<2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6726

On 2018-11-08 22:10:58 +0000, nospam said:

> In article <2018110813514766717-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
> <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank
>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my
>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
> 
> that's *not* a good idea.

Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that 
a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum 
wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which 
nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the 
keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].

So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's 
"not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?

The opinions seems to be contradictory.

Tom

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#6735

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2018-11-09 00:23 -0500
Message-ID	<091120180023054358%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#6734

In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
<tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> >> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank
> >> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my
> >> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
> > 
> > that's *not* a good idea.
> 
> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that 
> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum 
> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which 
> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the 
> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
> 
> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's 
> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?

everyone is.

it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt. 

that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
be the first file they're going to look at.

at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
solution is use password management app which is designed for that
purpose, or use the built in keychain.

the chances that someone hacked your mac is low, unless you clicked a
phishing link, in which case, anything goes.

from your description of the unsubscribe link, it *probably* was not a
phish, but that's impossible to know without examining the link.

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#6736

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-09 11:03 -0800
Message-ID	<2018110911034357212-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6735

On 2018-11-09 05:23:05 +0000, nospam said:

> In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
> <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
>>>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank
>>>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my
>>>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
>>> 
>>> that's *not* a good idea.
>> 
>> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that
>> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum
>> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which
>> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the
>> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
>> 
>> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's
>> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?
> 
> everyone is.
> 
> it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
> especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt.
> 
> that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
> be the first file they're going to look at.
> 
> at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
> solution is use password management app which is designed for that
> purpose, or use the built in keychain.

Thanks, Nospam.

What passcode management programs do you recommend?

I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the 
company information I want to look for there.

I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in 
alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera), 
with each company's information in one place under the company's name 
heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for 
passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have 
each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then 
scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and 
notes.

Also, Keychain (in the login folder) shows a long list of odd names 
such as "com.apple.cloudd.deviceidentifier.production".  It feels like 
I'm in Terminal.

Tom
>

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#6737

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2018-11-09 14:15 -0500
Message-ID	<091120181415478974%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#6736

In article <2018110911034357212-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
<tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> What passcode management programs do you recommend?

1password and lastpass are two of the better ones, but there are
several others. of those two, i prefer 1password.

> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the 
> company information I want to look for there.

they can do the lookup for you and even auto-fill it:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQzbn4SCiZg>

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#6739

From	"John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net>
Date	2018-11-09 22:53 +0000
Message-ID	<51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-N6JmUImzvZeB@localhost>
In reply to	#6736

On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:03:43 UTC, Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> 
wrote:

> On 2018-11-09 05:23:05 +0000, nospam said:
> 
> > In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
> > <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > 
> >>>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank
> >>>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my
> >>>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
> >>> 
> >>> that's *not* a good idea.
> >> 
> >> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that
> >> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum
> >> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which
> >> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the
> >> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
> >> 
> >> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's
> >> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?
> > 
> > everyone is.
> > 
> > it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
> > especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt.
> > 
> > that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
> > be the first file they're going to look at.
> > 
> > at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
> > solution is use password management app which is designed for that
> > purpose, or use the built in keychain.
> 
> Thanks, Nospam.
> 
> What passcode management programs do you recommend?
> 
> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the 
> company information I want to look for there.
> 
> I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in 
> alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera), 
> with each company's information in one place under the company's name 
> heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for 
> passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have 
> each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then 
> scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and 
> notes.

1Password has separate "Categories" for logins, secure notes, 
software registrations, and others, but you don't have to use that. 
There is a Notes item in each login entry, and there you can type in
anything you want and even import files, such as a copy of the 
registration email from a software vendor.

Personally, I find it convenient to declutter the login items and 
store the software registrations together, but to each his own.

> Also, Keychain (in the login folder) shows a long list of odd names 
> such as "com.apple.cloudd.deviceidentifier.production".  It feels like 
> I'm in Terminal.

-- 
John Varela

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#6747

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-10 15:01 +1300
Message-ID	<ps5e5n$bft$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6739

On 2018-11-09 22:53:35 +0000, John Varela said:
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:03:43 UTC, Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
>> On 2018-11-09 05:23:05 +0000, nospam said:
>>> In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
>>> <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank 
>>>>>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my 
>>>>>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> that's *not* a good idea.
>>>> 
>>>> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that
>>>> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum
>>>> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which
>>>> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the
>>>> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
>>>> 
>>>> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's
>>>> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?
>>> 
>>> everyone is.
>>> 
>>> it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
>>> especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt.
>>> 
>>> that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
>>> be the first file they're going to look at.
>>> 
>>> at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
>>> solution is use password management app which is designed for that
>>> purpose, or use the built in keychain.
>> 
>> Thanks, Nospam.
>> 
>> What passcode management programs do you recommend?
>> 
>> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the
>> company information I want to look for there.
>> 
>> I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in
>> alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera),
>> with each company's information in one place under the company's name
>> heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for
>> passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have
>> each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then
>> scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and
>> notes.
> 
> 1Password has separate "Categories" for logins, secure notes,
> software registrations, and others, but you don't have to use that.
> There is a Notes item in each login entry, and there you can type in
> anything you want and even import files, such as a copy of the
> registration email from a software vendor.
> 
> Personally, I find it convenient to declutter the login items and
> store the software registrations together, but to each his own.

Another bonus with 1Password (and probably some of the other password 
managers) is that you can easily read / copy the information from the 
menu bar icon, after entering your master password, without having to 
open up the full app.

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#6751

From	"John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net>
Date	2018-11-10 21:22 +0000
Message-ID	<51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-1Tddle6ukFdg@localhost>
In reply to	#6747

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 02:01:30 UTC, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> 
wrote:

> On 2018-11-09 22:53:35 +0000, John Varela said:
> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:03:43 UTC, Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
> >> On 2018-11-09 05:23:05 +0000, nospam said:
> >>> In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
> >>> <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank 
> >>>>>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my 
> >>>>>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> that's *not* a good idea.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that
> >>>> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum
> >>>> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which
> >>>> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the
> >>>> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
> >>>> 
> >>>> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's
> >>>> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?
> >>> 
> >>> everyone is.
> >>> 
> >>> it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
> >>> especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt.
> >>> 
> >>> that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
> >>> be the first file they're going to look at.
> >>> 
> >>> at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
> >>> solution is use password management app which is designed for that
> >>> purpose, or use the built in keychain.
> >> 
> >> Thanks, Nospam.
> >> 
> >> What passcode management programs do you recommend?
> >> 
> >> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the
> >> company information I want to look for there.
> >> 
> >> I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in
> >> alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera),
> >> with each company's information in one place under the company's name
> >> heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for
> >> passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have
> >> each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then
> >> scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and
> >> notes.
> > 
> > 1Password has separate "Categories" for logins, secure notes,
> > software registrations, and others, but you don't have to use that.
> > There is a Notes item in each login entry, and there you can type in
> > anything you want and even import files, such as a copy of the
> > registration email from a software vendor.
> > 
> > Personally, I find it convenient to declutter the login items and
> > store the software registrations together, but to each his own.
> 
> Another bonus with 1Password (and probably some of the other password 
> managers) is that you can easily read / copy the information from the 
> menu bar icon, after entering your master password, without having to 
> open up the full app.
 
That feature is particularly useful when logging into sites that are
1Password- (and presumably others)- unfriendly, such as the Apple 
App Store and the Oxford English Dictionary web site, which wants a 
library card number instead of a UserID and password.

-- 
John Varela

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#6757

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-10 19:56 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111019563069736-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6751

On 2018-11-10 21:22:58 +0000, John Varela said:

> On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 02:01:30 UTC, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-11-09 22:53:35 +0000, John Varela said:
>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:03:43 UTC, Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-11-09 05:23:05 +0000, nospam said:
>>>>> In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
>>>>> <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank
>>>>>>>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my
>>>>>>>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> that's *not* a good idea.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that
>>>>>> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum
>>>>>> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which
>>>>>> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the
>>>>>> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's
>>>>>> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?
>>>>> 
>>>>> everyone is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
>>>>> especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt.
>>>>> 
>>>>> that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
>>>>> be the first file they're going to look at.
>>>>> 
>>>>> at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
>>>>> solution is use password management app which is designed for that
>>>>> purpose, or use the built in keychain.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, Nospam.
>>>> 
>>>> What passcode management programs do you recommend?
>>>> 
>>>> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the
>>>> company information I want to look for there.
>>>> 
>>>> I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in
>>>> alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera),
>>>> with each company's information in one place under the company's name
>>>> heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for
>>>> passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have
>>>> each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then
>>>> scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and
>>>> notes.
>>> 
>>> 1Password has separate "Categories" for logins, secure notes,
>>> software registrations, and others, but you don't have to use that.
>>> There is a Notes item in each login entry, and there you can type in
>>> anything you want and even import files, such as a copy of the
>>> registration email from a software vendor.
>>> 
>>> Personally, I find it convenient to declutter the login items and
>>> store the software registrations together, but to each his own.
>> 
>> Another bonus with 1Password (and probably some of the other password
>> managers) is that you can easily read / copy the information from the
>> menu bar icon, after entering your master password, without having to
>> open up the full app.
> 
> That feature is particularly useful when logging into sites that are
> 1Password- (and presumably others)- unfriendly, such as the Apple
> App Store and the Oxford English Dictionary web site, which wants a
> library card number instead of a UserID and password.

Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?

Tom

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#6760

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-11 18:09 +1300
Message-ID	<ps8dii$rlk$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6757

On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> 
> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?

They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.

Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
passwords.

1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
software license codes). They are much easier to use.

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#6774

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-12 13:34 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111213342719705-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6760

On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> 
>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
> 
> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
> 
> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
> passwords.
> 
> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
> software license codes). They are much easier to use.

In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
because it's easier to use than Keychain.

As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
maintaining the text characteristics.

Tom

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#6777

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-13 14:00 +1300
Message-ID	<psd7nd$vch$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6774

On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> 
>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>> 
>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>> 
>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>> passwords.
>> 
>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
> 
> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
> 
> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
> maintaining the text characteristics.

1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.

It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.

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#6778

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2018-11-12 21:42 -0400
Message-ID	<121120182142286708%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#6777

In article <psd7nd$vch$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet.

it now supports markdown.

> I'm still trying to decide 
> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.

again, they offer both.

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#6784

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-15 12:25 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111512255053837-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6777

On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>> 
>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>> 
>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>> passwords.
>>> 
>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>> 
>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>> 
>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>> maintaining the text characteristics.
> 
> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
> 
> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.

I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
susceptible to hacking than physical attack.

There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.

My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
intruder.

It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
(including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
with --  is I think the mose likely cause.

Tom

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#6793

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-16 14:14 +1300
Message-ID	<psl5m2$1rua$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6784

On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>> 
>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>> 
>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>> passwords.
>>>> 
>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>> 
>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>> 
>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>> 
>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>> 
>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
> 
> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
> 
> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
> 
> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
> intruder.
> 
> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.

The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
never click on links simply because they tell you to.

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#6800

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-15 19:22 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111519221397014-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6793

On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>> 
>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>> passwords.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>> 
>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>> 
>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>> 
>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>> 
>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>> 
>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>> 
>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>> 
>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>> intruder.
>> 
>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
> 
> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
> password into a fake phishing webpage.

What password?  As I've already explained three or four times, I did 
not type any passcode into any email link I received, and especially 
not a passcode or any other sensitive information relating to any bank 
or credit accounts or any other accounts.  I only use my browser's 
bookmark for my bank to log into my bank account.

> There's basically nothing any piece of software can do about that ... 
> they can block *known* phishing websites, but they'll never be able to 
> block them all since hundreds of new ones spring up daily. You instead 
> have to use some common sense and never click on links simply because 
> they tell you to.

Tom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6803

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-16 18:42 +1300
Message-ID	<psllbj$flq$2@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6800

On 2018-11-16 03:22:13 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>> 
>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>> 
>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>> 
>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>> 
>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>> 
>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>> intruder.
>>> 
>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>> 
>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>> password into a fake phishing webpage.
> 
> What password?  As I've already explained three or four times, I did 
> not type any passcode into any email link I received, and especially 
> not a passcode or any other sensitive information relating to any bank 
> or credit accounts or any other accounts.  I only use my browser's 
> bookmark for my bank to log into my bank account.

That was simply one potential example.

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csiph-web

Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?

Contents

#6717 — Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?

#6718

#6725

#6726

#6734

#6735

#6736

#6737

#6739

#6747

#6751

#6757

#6760

#6774

#6777

#6778

#6784

#6793

#6800

#6803