Groups > comp.sys.mac.misc > #6717 > unrolled thread

Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?

Started by	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
First post	2018-11-07 21:59 -0800
Last post	2018-11-08 20:22 +0000
Articles	20 on this page of 131 — 7 participants

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#6801

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-15 19:36 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111519365359151-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6793

On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>> 
>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>> passwords.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>> 
>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>> 
>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>> 
>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>> 
>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>> 
>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>> 
>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>> 
>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>> intruder.
>> 
>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
> 
> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
> never click on links simply because they tell you to.

As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.

Tom

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#6804

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-16 18:42 +1300
Message-ID	<psllch$flq$3@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6801

On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>> 
>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>> 
>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>> 
>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>> 
>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>> 
>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>> intruder.
>>> 
>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>> 
>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
> 
> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.

That was only one potential example.

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#6806

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-16 08:02 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111608022343202-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6804

On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>> 
>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>> 
>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>> 
>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>> intruder.
>>>> 
>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>> 
>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>> 
>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
> 
> That was only one potential example.

So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?

Tom

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#6810

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-16 12:10 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111612102686118-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6806

On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:

> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
> 
>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>> intruder.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>> 
>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>> 
>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>> 
>> That was only one potential example.
> 
> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?
> 
> Tom

I didn't type my passcodes or account numbers or any other sensitive 
data into a Web page of an unsecure Web site, so that means the hacking 
must have been done through another company -- not by me entering 
sensitive data on the wrong Web site and not by me not having no active 
passcode to secure my Mac and not be me having my sensitive data stored 
in a text file.

And that's why the bankers didn't warn me to secure my data on my 
computer.   If they thought the data on  my computer was unsecure, they 
and VISA would have warned me to tighten my computer security to avoid 
a repeat of having a fraudster trying to use my credit card information 
illicitly.

And that's why when I ask Apple experts if storing sensitive data in 
text files on a Mac is safe from hackers, they say "yes" -- as long as 
I don't type passcodes or other bank data into a fake Web site link 
that I receive by email -- and I didn't do that.

Tom

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#6812

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-17 09:40 +1300
Message-ID	<psn9v3$1a3f$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6806

On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>> intruder.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>> 
>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>> 
>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>> 
>> That was only one potential example.
> 
> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?

I don't know how many times we have to say it: Your Mac has almost 
certainly NOT been "hacked".   :-\

The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).

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#6828

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-18 13:42 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111813425179797-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6812

On 2018-11-16 20:40:05 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>> 
>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>> 
>>> That was only one potential example.
>> 
>> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
>> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?
> 
> I don't know how many times we have to say it: Your Mac has almost 
> certainly NOT been "hacked".   :-\
> 
> The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
> have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
> clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
> possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).

That's terrific, Your!  That's what I want to be told!

That means I can restore my Nisus Writer file on my Mac and back-up 
drives -- the files that contain my bank account info and other 
sensitive info!

And it means that Jolly and Nospam (who seem to me to be topflight 
Apple experts) are wrong with their statements that I was negligent by 
not locking my secret data in a passcode protection program!

Yahoo!  I can sleep soundly again, relax and rejoice in my data 
security!  Thank you, and thanks to Apple for making Apple computers 
safe from hacking (as long as we don't type sensitive data into links 
in received emails)!

Tom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6829

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2018-11-18 16:49 -0500
Message-ID	<181120181649016958%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#6828

In article <2018111813425179797-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
<tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> > The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
> > have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
> > clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
> > possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).
> 
> That's terrific, Your!  That's what I want to be told!
> 
> That means I can restore my Nisus Writer file on my Mac and back-up 
> drives -- the files that contain my bank account info and other 
> sensitive info!

that would be incredibly foolish.

> And it means that Jolly and Nospam (who seem to me to be topflight 
> Apple experts) are wrong with their statements that I was negligent by 
> not locking my secret data in a passcode protection program!

no, they're not wrong. keeping passwords in plaintext is very negligent.

> Yahoo!  I can sleep soundly again, relax and rejoice in my data 
> security!  Thank you, and thanks to Apple for making Apple computers 
> safe from hacking (as long as we don't type sensitive data into links 
> in received emails)!

you're delusional.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6840

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-18 17:43 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111817430264456-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6812

On 2018-11-16 20:40:05 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>> 
>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>> 
>>> That was only one potential example.
>> 
>> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
>> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?
> 
> I don't know how many times we have to say it: Your Mac has almost 
> certainly NOT been "hacked".   :-\
> 
> The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
> have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
> clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
> possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).

I did make the mistake of viewing free, educational films on 
pornography sites, but I stopped doing that since I've been warned here 
that that could be the cause of the attack.  What about this as the 
possible breach of my security system that resulted in the stealing of 
my credit card and bank information by a malefactor?  And could it 
happen again, even though I've stopped viewing those educational films?

Tom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6842

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-19 18:31 +1300
Message-ID	<psthr4$ml0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6840

On 2018-11-19 01:43:02 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 20:40:05 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>>> 
>>>> That was only one potential example.
>>> 
>>> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
>>> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?
>> 
>> I don't know how many times we have to say it: Your Mac has almost 
>> certainly NOT been "hacked".   :-\
>> 
>> The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
>> have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
>> clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
>> possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).
> 
> I did make the mistake of viewing free, educational films on 
> pornography sites, but I stopped doing that since I've been warned here 
> that that could be the cause of the attack.  What about this as the 
> possible breach of my security system that resulted in the stealing of 
> my credit card and bank information by a malefactor?  And could it 
> happen again, even though I've stopped viewing those educational films?

If you're using an Outlook email service (as against the Outlook email 
app), then that's another of the infinite possibilities, and another 
that has nothing to do with your Mac. Some Outlook servers were 
reportedly hacked back in 2015 and no doubt others more recently. The 
cause of those hacks (unsurprisingly faulty Microsoft software) has 
probably been updated since then, but you'd still need to change your 
email account password.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6848

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-25 18:47 -0800
Message-ID	<2018112518470267428-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6842

On 2018-11-19 05:31:17 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-19 01:43:02 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 20:40:05 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That was only one potential example.
>>>> 
>>>> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
>>>> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?
>>> 
>>> I don't know how many times we have to say it: Your Mac has almost 
>>> certainly NOT been "hacked".   :-\
>>> 
>>> The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
>>> have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
>>> clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
>>> possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).
>> 
>> I did make the mistake of viewing free, educational films on 
>> pornography sites, but I stopped doing that since I've been warned here 
>> that that could be the cause of the attack.  What about this as the 
>> possible breach of my security system that resulted in the stealing of 
>> my credit card and bank information by a malefactor?  And could it 
>> happen again, even though I've stopped viewing those educational films?
> 
> If you're using an Outlook email service (as against the Outlook email app),

Thanks, Your.  I'm using a program called "Microsft Outlook" for my email.

> then that's another of the infinite possibilities, and another that has 
> nothing to do with your Mac. Some Outlook servers were reportedly 
> hacked back in 2015 and no doubt others more recently. The cause of 
> those hacks (unsurprisingly faulty Microsoft software) has probably 
> been updated since then, but you'd still need to change your email 
> account password.

That sounds like a contradiction; you wrote that this would have 
"nothing to do with your Mac", yet advised me to change my email 
account passcode.  My email account passcode is ON my Mac, so therefore 
changing my email account passcode obviously WOULD have something to do 
with my Mac and its security).

Tom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6852

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-26 18:38 +1300
Message-ID	<ptg0ss$quf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6848

On 2018-11-26 02:47:02 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-19 05:31:17 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-19 01:43:02 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 20:40:05 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 16:02:23 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That was only one potential example.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So do you mean that pressing an "Unsubscribe" button on a Web site can 
>>>>> give hackers access to every document on a Mac computer?
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know how many times we have to say it: Your Mac has almost 
>>>> certainly NOT been "hacked".   :-\
>>>> 
>>>> The reality is that your bank account issues are highly unlikely to 
>>>> have anything at all to do with the Mac itself. The fact that you 
>>>> clicked unsubribe on an email has nothing to do with anything (unless, 
>>>> possibly, you also entered details on that webpage).
>>> 
>>> I did make the mistake of viewing free, educational films on 
>>> pornography sites, but I stopped doing that since I've been warned here 
>>> that that could be the cause of the attack.  What about this as the 
>>> possible breach of my security system that resulted in the stealing of 
>>> my credit card and bank information by a malefactor?  And could it 
>>> happen again, even though I've stopped viewing those educational films?
>> 
>> If you're using an Outlook email service (as against the Outlook email app),
> 
> Thanks, Your.  I'm using a program called "Microsft Outlook" for my email.
> 
>> then that's another of the infinite possibilities, and another that has 
>> nothing to do with your Mac. Some Outlook servers were reportedly 
>> hacked back in 2015 and no doubt others more recently. The cause of 
>> those hacks (unsurprisingly faulty Microsoft software) has probably 
>> been updated since then, but you'd still need to change your email 
>> account password.
> 
> That sounds like a contradiction; you wrote that this would have 
> "nothing to do with your Mac", yet advised me to change my email 
> account passcode.  My email account passcode is ON my Mac, so therefore 
> changing my email account passcode obviously WOULD have something to do 
> with my Mac and its security).
> 
> Tom

No. Your email account is on the server of whichever company is your 
email provider. It's at that end where a hacker can potentially gain 
access more easily to many accounts at once rather than bothering with 
individual computers. It has nothing to do with the security of your 
Mac.

That's what has happened in the past with some email servers running 
Outlook server software. It has also happened to companies like Yahoo's 
email service (which is why the Telecom New Zealand internet provider 
dropped them as the email service provider for all their customers).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6809

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-16 08:15 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111608153881377-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6804

On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>> 
>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>> 
>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>> 
>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>> intruder.
>>>> 
>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>> 
>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>> 
>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
> 
> That was only one potential example.

What are the other examples?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6814

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-17 09:46 +1300
Message-ID	<psnaad$1ajn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6809

On 2018-11-16 16:15:38 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>> intruder.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>> 
>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>> 
>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>> 
>> That was only one potential example.
> 
> What are the other examples?

We've already given a few - fake 'bank' webpages, dodgy competition 
entry forms, scam "help desk" phone calls, etc., etc. There are far too 
many potential possibilities to completely list, and you'd never know 
which was the culprit anyway ... even assuming it was any of them at 
all.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6830

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-18 14:31 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111814311074007-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6814

On 2018-11-16 20:46:07 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-16 16:15:38 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>> 
>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>> 
>>> That was only one potential example.
>> 
>> What are the other examples?
> 
> We've already given a few - fake 'bank' webpages, dodgy competition 
> entry forms, scam "help desk" phone calls, etc., etc. There are far too 
> many potential possibilities to completely list, and you'd never know 
> which was the culprit anyway ... even assuming it was any of them at 
> all.

I only access my bank's Web site from my Google bookmarks.

I've never entered Net-based competitions and telemarketers with their 
irritating offers of credit cards.

I also don't think I've ever had 'help desk' phone calls from 
companies, unless it was involving companies that I deal with, such as 
my phone service provider.  And if I got any such calls, those calls 
would only have been received soon after I phoned the companies' phone 
numbers and then they called back soon after my calls to deal with the 
issues I reported.

So I'm pretty sure I can rule out any and all of those possibilities -- 
both form the recent and distant past.

Thanks, Your!

Tom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6839

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-19 14:38 +1300
Message-ID	<pst475$5l5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6830

On 2018-11-18 22:31:10 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 20:46:07 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-16 16:15:38 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>>> 
>>>> That was only one potential example.
>>> 
>>> What are the other examples?
>> 
>> We've already given a few - fake 'bank' webpages, dodgy competition 
>> entry forms, scam "help desk" phone calls, etc., etc. There are far too 
>> many potential possibilities to completely list, and you'd never know 
>> which was the culprit anyway ... even assuming it was any of them at 
>> all.
> 
> I only access my bank's Web site from my Google bookmarks.
> 
> I've never entered Net-based competitions and telemarketers with their 
> irritating offers of credit cards.
> 
> I also don't think I've ever had 'help desk' phone calls from 
> companies, unless it was involving companies that I deal with, such as 
> my phone service provider.  And if I got any such calls, those calls 
> would only have been received soon after I phoned the companies' phone 
> numbers and then they called back soon after my calls to deal with the 
> issues I reported.
> 
> So I'm pretty sure I can rule out any and all of those possibilities -- 
> both form the recent and distant past.
> 
> Thanks, Your!

Yet another of the infinite possibilities is if you've taken the Mac to 
be repaired. A scumbag (usually not Apple Authorised) repair centre 
could install some sort of app, malware or legitimate, that gives them 
access to the computer ... or they could simply have read the file 
saved on your computer while they had it in the shop.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#6841

From	Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
Date	2018-11-18 17:58 -0800
Message-ID	<2018111817581634030-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
In reply to	#6839

On 2018-11-19 01:38:47 +0000, Your Name said:

> On 2018-11-18 22:31:10 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>> On 2018-11-16 20:46:07 +0000, Your Name said:
>>> On 2018-11-16 16:15:38 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>> On 2018-11-16 05:42:41 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>>>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>>>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>>>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>>>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>>>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>>>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>>>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>>>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>>>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>>>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>>>>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>>>>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>>>>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>>>>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>>>>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>>>>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>>>>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>>>>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>>>>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>>>>>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>>>>>>> intruder.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>>>>>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>>>>>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>>>>>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>>>>>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>>>>>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>>>>>>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>>>>>>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>>>>>>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>>>>>>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>>>>>>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>>>>>>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
>>>>>> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
>>>>>> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That was only one potential example.
>>>> 
>>>> What are the other examples?
>>> 
>>> We've already given a few - fake 'bank' webpages, dodgy competition 
>>> entry forms, scam "help desk" phone calls, etc., etc. There are far too 
>>> many potential possibilities to completely list, and you'd never know 
>>> which was the culprit anyway ... even assuming it was any of them at 
>>> all.
>> 
>> I only access my bank's Web site from my Google bookmarks.
>> 
>> I've never entered Net-based competitions and telemarketers with their 
>> irritating offers of credit cards.
>> 
>> I also don't think I've ever had 'help desk' phone calls from 
>> companies, unless it was involving companies that I deal with, such as 
>> my phone service provider.  And if I got any such calls, those calls 
>> would only have been received soon after I phoned the companies' phone 
>> numbers and then they called back soon after my calls to deal with the 
>> issues I reported.
>> 
>> So I'm pretty sure I can rule out any and all of those possibilities -- 
>> both form the recent and distant past.
>> 
>> Thanks, Your!
> 
> Yet another of the infinite possibilities is if you've taken the Mac to 
> be repaired. A scumbag (usually not Apple Authorised) repair centre 
> could install some sort of app, malware or legitimate, that gives them 
> access to the computer ... or they could simply have read the file 
> saved on your computer while they had it in the shop.

That's not possible, because I haven't taken the computer to a repair shop.

No one but I have had physical access to the computer since I bought it.

From the list of possibilities given so far in this long thread, there 
appear to be only a small number of possible avenues of attack that a 
hacker might have used -- not 'infinite possibilites'.  And I've ruled 
out all of them except maybe for my viewing previous viewing of 
educational films on pornography Net sites.

Also, several months ago, someone gained access to my Outlook email, 
and sent two fake emails using my Outlook account to a girlfriend I had 
recently broken up with.  He wrote something like, "Hi.  How are you. 
Feel free to call me anytime." And then he wrote "Tom" at the end of 
the email.  Both of those emails weree addressed to the same 
girlfriend.  Only the second one was signed.  After that, I changed my 
Outlook passcode, and since then, that disturbing forgery hasn't 
recurred.

Tom

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#6817

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-17 14:17 +1300
Message-ID	<psnq78$20i$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6801

On 2018-11-16 03:36:53 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> On 2018-11-16 01:14:44 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2018-11-15 20:25:50 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>> On 2018-11-13 01:00:32 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>> On 2018-11-12 21:34:27 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>> On 2018-11-11 05:09:38 +0000, Your Name said:
>>>>>> On 2018-11-11 03:56:30 +0000, Tom Evans said:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks, John and Your. Do you recommend Ipassword over Keychain?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They completely diffent apps for dsifferent purposes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Keychain utility isn't meant to be a user-friendly password manager for 
>>>>>> looking up passwords, adding new passwords, etc. Keychain is meant to 
>>>>>> be used along-side auto-form filling as an automatic process, and the 
>>>>>> utility is only there to allow you to delete old passwords and change 
>>>>>> passwords.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1Password and other similar apps are proper password managers (and in 
>>>>>> some cases like 1Password they can store other things as well, such as 
>>>>>> software license codes). They are much easier to use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In that case it seems that Ipassword would be more appropriate for me 
>>>>> because it's easier to use than Keychain.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I wrote, I want to keep an anlphabetical list of information about 
>>>>> the companies I deal with (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, 
>>>>> etcetera) and then have particular notes about those companies (such as 
>>>>> serial numbers; coupon codes; customer service URL if it's hard to find 
>>>>> on the companies' Net sites; notes about the Web site forum if it has 
>>>>> one and if I'm a memberr of that forum;, and security question and 
>>>>> answers for Web sites if that's applicable.  And as I wrote I want to 
>>>>> be able to control type characteristics, such as font, font size and 
>>>>> font bolding in my alphabetical, searchable list of company notes.  I 
>>>>> also would want the ability to print the list of notes while 
>>>>> maintaining the text characteristics.
>>>> 
>>>> 1Password can store all sorts of things, but the Notes box in each 
>>>> entry can't be formatted (it's just plain text) ... or at least it is 
>>>> in version 6, I haven't got version 7 yet. I'm still trying to decide 
>>>> about their changeover to silly subscriptions (upgrading from version 6 
>>>> does mean I can get a license for verison 7, but we don't know about 
>>>> versions after that) or just swapping to one of the other 'normal' apps.
>>>> 
>>>> It can print entries, but you don't have any control over the layout. 
>>>> It can also export the entries to a plain text file which you could 
>>>> then format in any word processor. Both printing and exporting kind of 
>>>> defeats the main purpose of having a secure password manager though. 
>>>> You may as well just use a text file or Word / Pages document.
>>> 
>>> I dont think that's true, because my computer seems to be more 
>>> susceptible to hacking than physical attack.
>>> 
>>> There's not much at risk of a physical attack of my premises.
>>> 
>>> My security breach that just happened wasn't perpetrated by a physical 
>>> intruder.
>>> 
>>> It's very unlikely that a thief would have found my bank data 
>>> (including written questions and answers to my security questions and 
>>> other information such as the dates of my bank transactions and how 
>>> many accounts I have and perphaps PINs) by going through my garbage, so 
>>> a hack either of my computer -- or one of the bussinesses that I deal 
>>> with --  is I think the mose likely cause.
>> 
>> The "security breach that just happened", assuming it had anything at 
>> all to do with computers, is most likely caused by you entering the 
>> password into a fake phishing webpage. There's basically nothing any 
>> piece of software can do about that ... they can block *known* phishing 
>> websites, but they'll never be able to block them all since hundreds of 
>> new ones spring up daily. You instead have to use some common sense and 
>> never click on links simply because they tell you to.
> 
> As I already explained twice, the only emails I clicked on led to pages 
> where I pressed the "Unsubscribe" link and typed my email addres and 
> pressed the return key.  THAT'S ALL I TYPED THERE.

Assuming it even was something you did on the computer, you may have 
done it weeks or months ago. The scam people may have only recently 
gotten around to using the information.

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#6759

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-11 18:06 +1300
Message-ID	<ps8dd1$r97$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6751

On 2018-11-10 21:22:58 +0000, John Varela said:
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 02:01:30 UTC, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2018-11-09 22:53:35 +0000, John Varela said:
>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:03:43 UTC, Tom Evans <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-11-09 05:23:05 +0000, nospam said:
>>>>> In article <2018110820550661596-tomevans9890@yahoo.ca>, Tom Evans
>>>>> <tomevans9890@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I thought maybe the thief was able to hack into my Mac and find my bank
>>>>>>>> information there.  (I have my user names and passcodes stored on my
>>>>>>>> Mac, but in a text program and not in Keychain.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> that's *not* a good idea.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Two messages down, Your Name wrote that it's "immensely unlikely" that
>>>>>> a hacker hack into my bank data on  my Mac, and two messages up, Callum
>>>>>> wrote "If nobody else has physical access to that desktop Mac [which
>>>>>> nobody does] it's very safe indeed, especially if you don't sync the
>>>>>> keychain via iCloud to any other Mac" [which I haven't].
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So who's right, those two guys, or Nospam here, who wrote that it's
>>>>>> "not a good idea" to store sensitive data in a text file on a Mac?
>>>>> 
>>>>> everyone is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> it's never a good idea to store sensitive data in an unencrypted file
>>>>> especially if it has an obvious name, like passwords.txt.
>>>>> 
>>>>> that doesn't mean someone hacked you, but if they did, that's going to
>>>>> be the first file they're going to look at.
>>>>> 
>>>>> at a minimum, such a file should be encrypted, but a much better
>>>>> solution is use password management app which is designed for that
>>>>> purpose, or use the built in keychain.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, Nospam.
>>>> 
>>>> What passcode management programs do you recommend?
>>>> 
>>>> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the
>>>> company information I want to look for there.
>>>> 
>>>> I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in
>>>> alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera),
>>>> with each company's information in one place under the company's name
>>>> heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for
>>>> passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have
>>>> each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then
>>>> scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and
>>>> notes.
>>> 
>>> 1Password has separate "Categories" for logins, secure notes,
>>> software registrations, and others, but you don't have to use that.
>>> There is a Notes item in each login entry, and there you can type in
>>> anything you want and even import files, such as a copy of the
>>> registration email from a software vendor.
>>> 
>>> Personally, I find it convenient to declutter the login items and
>>> store the software registrations together, but to each his own.
>> 
>> Another bonus with 1Password (and probably some of the other password
>> managers) is that you can easily read / copy the information from the
>> menu bar icon, after entering your master password, without having to
>> open up the full app.
> 
> That feature is particularly useful when logging into sites that are
> 1Password- (and presumably others)- unfriendly, such as the Apple
> App Store and the Oxford English Dictionary web site, which wants a
> library card number instead of a UserID and password.

I don't use the automatic form filling anyway, so I'm always using the 
menu bar access to get passwords from 1Password.   :-)

You can edit existing data via the menu bar and generate random 
passwords, but you can't add new items. You have to use the main app to 
make new entries.

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#6740

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2018-11-10 14:09 +1300
Message-ID	<ps5b4n$7q7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#6736

On 2018-11-09 19:03:43 +0000, Tom Evans said:
> 
> What passcode management programs do you recommend?
> 
> I checked Keychain, but it seems like it would be hard to find the 
> company information I want to look for there.
> 
> I want to have a list of companies that I deal with, shown in 
> alphabetical order (such as Amazon, Apple, Best Buy, Costco, etcetera), 
> with each company's information in one place under the company's name 
> heading in bold type, but instead  Keychain has one folder for 
> passcodes, and another folder for Secure Notes, so I'd have to have 
> each company's passcodes and notes into separate folders, and then 
> scroll through those two folders to see each company's passcodes and 
> notes.
> 
> Also, Keychain (in the login folder) shows a long list of odd names 
> such as "com.apple.cloudd.deviceidentifier.production".  It feels like 
> I'm in Terminal.

Keychain utility isn't really for looking up passwords. The passwords 
are used automatically in apps like Safari. Keychain utility is for 
deleting entries.


Of the proper password manager apps, 1Password is probably the best, 
but with their latest version they've changed to a silly monthly 
subscription pricing.
https://1password.com

Other popular alternatives, according to Macworld, are:

   - Dashlane (free for one device)
     https://www.dashlane.com

   - LastPass (free)
     https://www.lastpass.com

   - Keeper(free)
     https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/keeper-password-manager/id414781829

   - EnPass (free)
     https://www.enpass.io

<https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac-software/best-passwords-managers-for-mac-3672527/> 


The free ones do have a more powerful version and/or multi-device / 
cloud syncing options you have to pay for as well, but the free version 
might be enough for your needs.

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#6741

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2018-11-09 20:11 -0500
Message-ID	<091120182011058134%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#6740

In article <ps5b4n$7q7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> 
> Of the proper password manager apps, 1Password is probably the best, 
> but with their latest version they've changed to a silly monthly 
> subscription pricing.

as you've been told many times before, that is *false*.

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csiph-web

Is Keychain or any other program safe for storing sensitive data on a desktop Mac?

Contents

#6801

#6804

#6806

#6810

#6812

#6828

#6829

#6840

#6842

#6848

#6852

#6809

#6814

#6830

#6839

#6841

#6817

#6759

#6740

#6741