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Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines?

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  Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2012-03-24 09:16 -0700
    Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2012-03-31 09:02 +1300
      Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-03-30 21:14 -0400
        Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2012-03-30 22:40 -0700
          Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-03-31 11:46 -0400
            Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-03-31 11:57 -0400
            Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2012-03-31 13:16 -0700
              Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-31 16:25 -0400
                Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2012-03-31 17:18 -0700
              Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-04-02 00:54 -0400
            Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-04-01 12:22 +1300
      Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2012-03-30 22:40 -0700
        Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2012-03-31 20:15 +1300
          Re: Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines? Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2012-03-31 05:44 -0700

#8622 — Access Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups from non-Apple Mac machines?

Hello.

Is it possible to access an external USB HDD's data, that is used for 
Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups, on non-Apple Mac machines 
(Windows and Linux)? Or can it be only be accessed with a Mac? I use 
multiple computers and OSes.

Thank you in advance. :)
-- 
"In a battle between elephants, the ants get squashed." --Thailand
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#8774

Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> Hello.
> 
> Is it possible to access an external USB HDD's data, that is used for
> Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups, on non-Apple Mac machines
> (Windows and Linux)? Or can it be only be accessed with a Mac? I use 
> multiple computers and OSes.
> 
> Thank you in advance. :)

Yes, you'll need software that adds HFS+ read (at least) capability to
your other OSes, e.g.
<http://www.paragon-software.com/home/hfs-windows/> and
<http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/> for Windows. Things can
get a little more involved in Linux depending on the distro, e.g.
<http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Hfsplus>.

IIRC Time Capsules backup inside a sparsebundle, so you'll need to be
able to mount those as well in that particular case. Otherwise TM
backups to a regular external HD like yours are just files in folders,
when viewed from other OSes.

Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#8782

On 03-30-2012 16:02, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.

Depends on what software you use to copy it.  That was common in the 
early days, but lately I have been seeing a lot of ._DS_Store and the 
like in Windows.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life
   http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin

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#8792

On 3/30/2012 6:14 PM PT, Wes Groleau typed:

>> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
>> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
>
> Depends on what software you use to copy it. That was common in the
> early days, but lately I have been seeing a lot of ._DS_Store and the
> like in Windows.

I see those a lot on places that share with Windows machines like at work.
-- 
"Ant colonies are remarkably similar to cities. No one choreographs the 
action, not even the queen ant, but ant behavior is controlled by swarm 
logic--put 10,000 dumb ants together, and they become smart. They will 
calculate the shortest routes to food supplies sniffing out pheromone 
signals from other ants and Johnson says people do the same thing in 
cities using low-level interactions of people on the street." --Alex 
Cukan, "Stories of modern science," United Press International, October 
8, 2001
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#8799

On 03-31-2012 01:40, Ant wrote:
> On 3/30/2012 6:14 PM PT, Wes Groleau typed:

JKG> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
JKG> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
>>
>> Depends on what software you use to copy it. That was common in the
>> early days, but lately I have been seeing a lot of ._DS_Store and the
>> like in Windows.
>
> I see those a lot on places that share with Windows machines like at work.

They are resource forks.  That's how Apple gets around the fact that 
other file systems don't have them.

._filename is the resource fork for filename

-- 
Wes Groleau

   Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life
   http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin

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#8800

On 03-31-2012 11:46, Wes Groleau wrote:
> On 03-31-2012 01:40, Ant wrote:
>> On 3/30/2012 6:14 PM PT, Wes Groleau typed:
> JKG> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare
> nowadays),
> JKG> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
>>>
>>> Depends on what software you use to copy it. That was common in the
>>> early days, but lately I have been seeing a lot of ._DS_Store and the
>>> like in Windows.
>>
>> I see those a lot on places that share with Windows machines like at
>> work.
>
> They are resource forks. That's how Apple gets around the fact that
> other file systems don't have them.
>
> ._filename is the resource fork for filename

If you are seeing them on Mac, that's odd.
If you are seeing them on Windows, then both filename
and ._filename came from Mac.  And if they came from your Mac,
you DO have resource forks.  And the fact that you see them both
shows that the resource fork was not destroyed by putting it on NTFS
(or FAT, if it's a very ancient Windows).

However, if you copy filename back to the Mac without ._filename,
then you will have lost something.

One place I know where resource forks are still used, is for holding 
preview images for graphics files.  Allows you to see a miniature 
version of the image in Finder.  I have to go through and delete them 
all before updating the images directory on my website.  Up there, they 
waste space because I'm not using Finder there.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life
   http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin

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#8803

On 3/31/2012 8:46 AM PT, Wes Groleau typed:

> JKG> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare
> nowadays),
> JKG> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
>>>
>>> Depends on what software you use to copy it. That was common in the
>>> early days, but lately I have been seeing a lot of ._DS_Store and the
>>> like in Windows.
>>
>> I see those a lot on places that share with Windows machines like at
>> work.
>
> They are resource forks. That's how Apple gets around the fact that
> other file systems don't have them.
>
> ._filename is the resource fork for filename

Is it bad to delete those files? I wasn't sure to keep them or not. It's 
like Windows' thumbnail.db files.
-- 
"It is not enough to be industrious; so are the ants. What are you 
industrious about?" --Henry David Thoreau
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
A song is/was playing on this computer: 0-Running Flash

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#8804

In article <YeCdnSACc6er--rSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> > They are resource forks. That's how Apple gets around the fact that
> > other file systems don't have them.
> >
> > ._filename is the resource fork for filename
> 
> Is it bad to delete those files? I wasn't sure to keep them or not. It's 
> like Windows' thumbnail.db files.

potentially, it can be very bad, depending on what's in the resource
fork. sometimes it won't matter and sometimes it definitely will.

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#8807

On 3/31/2012 1:25 PM PT, nospam typed:

> In article<YeCdnSACc6er--rSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <ant@zimage.comANT>  wrote:
>
>>> They are resource forks. That's how Apple gets around the fact that
>>> other file systems don't have them.
>>>
>>> ._filename is the resource fork for filename
>>
>> Is it bad to delete those files? I wasn't sure to keep them or not. It's
>> like Windows' thumbnail.db files.
>
> potentially, it can be very bad, depending on what's in the resource
> fork. sometimes it won't matter and sometimes it definitely will.

Thanks. I will stop touching those files then.
-- 
"Even the ant has his (her) bite." --Turkish
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#8827

On 03-31-2012 16:16, Ant wrote:
> On 3/31/2012 8:46 AM PT, Wes Groleau typed:
>> ._filename is the resource fork for filename
>
> Is it bad to delete those files? I wasn't sure to keep them or not. It's
> like Windows' thumbnail.db files.

If you don't know what they're for, I'd leave them alone.
_Most_ of them are not important, but if you don't know....

-- 
Wes Groleau

    “There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.”
                                  — Larry Wall

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#8808

Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> On 03-31-2012 01:40, Ant wrote:
> > On 3/30/2012 6:14 PM PT, Wes Groleau typed:
> 
> JKG> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
> JKG> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
> >>
> >> Depends on what software you use to copy it. That was common in the
> >> early days, but lately I have been seeing a lot of ._DS_Store and the
> >> like in Windows.
> >
> > I see those a lot on places that share with Windows machines like at work.
> 
> They are resource forks.  That's how Apple gets around the fact that 
> other file systems don't have them.
> 
> ._filename is the resource fork for filename

Not just the resource fork, also the Finder information, which includes
the filetype and creator codes.

When Mac OS X stores a file on a non-Mac file system, it uses
AppleDouble format, which splits the Mac file into two parts. The data
fork ("normal" content portion of a document) is saved under the name of
the file, and all other parts of the file are saved in ._filename,
structured with AppleDouble header information to identify the various
parts. It might include a resource fork, Finder information, and
potentially other things.

The ._filename part is not created if it wouldn't contain anything
useful, e.g. a file with no type/creator codes and no resource fork.

If the file has a custom file type and no resource fork, that will be
sufficient to require creation of a ._filename part.

The most common reason for having a resource fork in recent versions of
Mac OS X is if the file has a custom icon. They were more common back in
the PowerPC era, as they were a required part of applications on Mac OS
9 and earlier, and sometimes used on documents.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#8791

On 3/30/2012 1:02 PM PT, Jamie Kahn Genet typed:

> Ant<ant@zimage.comANT>  wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> Is it possible to access an external USB HDD's data, that is used for
>> Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups, on non-Apple Mac machines
>> (Windows and Linux)? Or can it be only be accessed with a Mac? I use
>> multiple computers and OSes.
>>
>> Thank you in advance. :)
>
> Yes, you'll need software that adds HFS+ read (at least) capability to
> your other OSes, e.g.
> <http://www.paragon-software.com/home/hfs-windows/>  and
> <http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/>  for Windows. Things can
> get a little more involved in Linux depending on the distro, e.g.
> <http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Hfsplus>.
>
> IIRC Time Capsules backup inside a sparsebundle, so you'll need to be
> able to mount those as well in that particular case. Otherwise TM
> backups to a regular external HD like yours are just files in folders,
> when viewed from other OSes.
>
> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.

Thanks. I don't know what resource fork is. Are you saying copying 
folders/directories and files to FAT and NTFS drives would mess them up? :(
-- 
"Ant colonies are remarkably similar to cities. No one choreographs the 
action, not even the queen ant, but ant behavior is controlled by swarm 
logic--put 10,000 dumb ants together, and they become smart. They will 
calculate the shortest routes to food supplies sniffing out pheromone 
signals from other ants and Johnson says people do the same thing in 
cities using low-level interactions of people on the street." --Alex 
Cukan, "Stories of modern science," United Press International, October 
8, 2001
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#8794

Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> On 3/30/2012 1:02 PM PT, Jamie Kahn Genet typed:
> 
> > Ant<ant@zimage.comANT>  wrote:
> >
> >> Hello.
> >>
> >> Is it possible to access an external USB HDD's data, that is used for
> >> Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8's Time Machine backups, on non-Apple Mac machines
> >> (Windows and Linux)? Or can it be only be accessed with a Mac? I use
> >> multiple computers and OSes.
> >>
> >> Thank you in advance. :)
> >
> > Yes, you'll need software that adds HFS+ read (at least) capability to
> > your other OSes, e.g.
> > <http://www.paragon-software.com/home/hfs-windows/>  and
> > <http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/>  for Windows. Things can
> > get a little more involved in Linux depending on the distro, e.g.
> > <http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Hfsplus>.
> >
> > IIRC Time Capsules backup inside a sparsebundle, so you'll need to be
> > able to mount those as well in that particular case. Otherwise TM
> > backups to a regular external HD like yours are just files in folders,
> > when viewed from other OSes.
> >
> > Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
> > you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
> 
> Thanks. I don't know what resource fork is. Are you saying copying 
> folders/directories and files to FAT and NTFS drives would mess them up? :(

If they've a resource fork <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_fork>,
yes. But few OSX apps or documents use them any more, as resource forks
are a legacy technology brought over from classic MacOS days. Instead
the OSX way is to use bundles - folders with an extension that means
they're displayed as a single file in OSX (unless you right click and go
"Show package contents"), but show up as a folder full of other files
and folders (the parts that make up the app or document) when viewed in
another OS.

So you'll probably be ok unless you've older apps (and the documents
they produce) from the early days of OSX, or the few that cling to using
resource forks. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's just something
to be aware of, if for example you're an old time Mac user like myself,
with apps ported over with very little if any change shortly after OSX
arrived on the scene, and documents I still access that date back to the
90's :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#8798

>>> Note if you've backed anything up with a resource fork (rare nowadays),
>>> you'll destroy it if you copy it over to a FAT or NTFS disk.
>>
>> Thanks. I don't know what resource fork is. Are you saying copying
>> folders/directories and files to FAT and NTFS drives would mess them up? :(
>
> If they've a resource fork<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_fork>,
> yes. But few OSX apps or documents use them any more, as resource forks
> are a legacy technology brought over from classic MacOS days. Instead
> the OSX way is to use bundles - folders with an extension that means
> they're displayed as a single file in OSX (unless you right click and go
> "Show package contents"), but show up as a folder full of other files
> and folders (the parts that make up the app or document) when viewed in
> another OS.
>
> So you'll probably be ok unless you've older apps (and the documents
> they produce) from the early days of OSX, or the few that cling to using
> resource forks. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's just something
> to be aware of, if for example you're an old time Mac user like myself,
> with apps ported over with very little if any change shortly after OSX
> arrived on the scene, and documents I still access that date back to the
> 90's :-)

Oldest Mac OS X applications I can think of are from 2008 (v10.5) so I 
think I am OK. :)
-- 
Captain Marvel: Shazam. Billy Batson: Now put her down. Black Adam: See? 
Like an ant. --Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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