Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.sys.laptops > #1826 > unrolled thread

Laptop battery loses charge when off??

Back to article view | Back to comp.sys.laptops

Contents

  Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-02-24 01:57 -0500
    Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you> - 2013-02-24 09:04 +0000
      Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Bert <bert@iphouse.com> - 2013-02-24 15:41 +0000
        Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-02-24 14:29 -0500
      Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-02-24 14:22 -0500
    Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Bob_Villa <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> - 2013-02-24 06:27 -0800
      Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-02-24 14:37 -0500
    Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Charlie Hoffpauir <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-02-24 09:21 -0600
      Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-02-24 14:40 -0500
    Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-03-12 23:17 -0400
      Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? "~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2013-03-14 19:17 +1300
        Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-03-14 12:48 -0400
          Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? "~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:15 +1300
      Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Top <top1sg@suddenlink.invalid> - 2013-03-16 16:45 -0500
        Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> - 2013-03-16 18:31 -0400
          Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2013-03-16 23:42 +0000
            Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? "~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 15:14 +1300
              Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2013-03-17 09:00 +0000
                Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? "~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 01:29 +1300
                  Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2013-03-18 05:20 +0000
                    Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? "~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 11:39 +1300
                    Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? "~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2013-04-11 15:13 +1200
          Re: Laptop battery loses charge when off?? wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2013-03-19 15:45 +0000

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#1826 — Laptop battery loses charge when off??

Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook. 

I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
trouble with the battery,  but this month, the battery went from fully
charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used.  I had
hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger. 

Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
done to 40% remaining.   That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
unplugged. 

The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
3-cell battery.   It took over an hour or more to recharge. 

The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
battery.  When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
an hour to charge the last 1/3.   

P.S.  Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
house charger all the time, until this is resolved?

Thanks.

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#1828

Well if they are hibernating rather than being turned off, 
surely battery depletion should be expected. As I understand 
things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when 
you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain 
systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing 
keyboard keys and other inputs which require active 
electronics to scan them.

Furthermore, it has to keep something alive that would tell 
the rest of the machine where to load the data it stored 
before going into one of your week long sleeps. OK, perhaps 
nowadays the BIOS and interface is set up to do all this while 
the electronics are actually powered down. But I doubt it, and 
in any case what's wrong with just turning the thing off?

Anyway, if that four year old laptop has had a lot of use, 
then it is quite normal for the battery to suffer a bit. 
Lithium-Ion batteries have built in circuitry to manage them 
(mainly to stop them catching fire), this inevitably drains 
the battery slowly over time and if the battery is on it's 
last legs, that and whatever drain the PC may add to it even 
when the machine should be off (or worse, in hibernation) may 
well give you the loss of charge you experience.

As for keeping them on their chargers, unless the charging 
system is poorly designed, I'd figure that should be fine. The 
transformer will always chew a little bit of power though, 
converting it mostly into heat. Depending on the design, this 
heat might be a problem (either in the transformer or the 
laptop), but I'll leave you to figure how much damage it can 
do.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1831

In news:XnsA171CC445B010CSKJHNMW985780A@94.75.214.90 Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you> wrote: 

>                                           As I understand 
> things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when 
> you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain 
> systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing 
> keyboard keys and other inputs which require active 
> electronics to scan them.

No, that's what happens when you suspend. In hibernation, the contents
of memory is written to disk and the machine is completely powered down.

Batteries of all types are subject to self-discharge to some extent. The
LiIon batteries usually used in laptops are supposed to do it at about
10% per month. Older batteries might go faster. 

-- 
bert@iphouse.com	St. Paul, MN

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1833

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 15:41:38 +0000 (UTC), Bert <bert@iphouse.com>
wrote:

>In news:XnsA171CC445B010CSKJHNMW985780A@94.75.214.90 Computer Nerd Kev
><not@telling.you> wrote: 
>
>>                                           As I understand 
>> things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when 
>> you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain 
>> systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing 
>> keyboard keys and other inputs which require active 
>> electronics to scan them.
>
>No, that's what happens when you suspend. In hibernation, the contents
>of memory is written to disk and the machine is completely powered down.
>
>Batteries of all types are subject to self-discharge to some extent. The
>LiIon batteries usually used in laptops are supposed to do it at about
>10% per month. Older batteries might go faster. 

That's probably it.   What about those batteries  that sell for 12 or
20 dollars, even for 6 cell.    Do you only "get what you pay for", or
do some places  charge extra for the same thing.

I once saw a Kodak refurbished digital camera in a "surplus" store for
$50 , adn then found the same thing on line from $50 to $200!    Even
more than a new, not refurbished, Kodak camera of the same model and
everything that cost 100!    For cordless phones, I've seen the same
vendor charging little more for 3 batteries than for one with the same
mdel number. 

I'm not sure it's true anymore that you get what you pay for. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1832

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:04:37 +0000 (UTC), Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you> wrote:

>Well if they are hibernating rather than being turned off, 
>surely battery depletion should be expected. As I understand 
>things (and I'll admit my knowledge is often outdated), when 
>you put a PC into hibernation mode, it still keeps certain 
>systems running so that the machine can be awoken by pressing 
>keyboard keys and other inputs which require active 
>electronics to scan them.

I'll admit that I brought up hibernation, but it doesn't work like you
said.     Normally, hibernation just copies the RAM to a file on t he
harddrive -- in XP it is hiberfile.sys, which in my desktop is
3,220,230,144 bytels long. ( I have 4 gigs of Ram but the file isn't
that big either because XP can only use 3 Gig, or because when I
hibernated I was using only the number of bytes of RAM  listed) 

Now with the desktiop a few times, I've come back in the morning and
found that it never finished shutting down, so it was using power all
night, but that was obvious because the screen had some of the
programs I'd been running still showing.    If I had stuck around the
night before, I could have made sure it closed down.   With the
laptops, I have made sure. 
>
>Furthermore, it has to keep something alive that would tell 
>the rest of the machine where to load the data it stored 
>before going into one of your week long sleeps. 

In addition it sets one byte or bit to "hibernated" so that on normal
start-up, if that byte is set, one of the first things it does is to
copy pagefile.sys back to RAM.  

>OK, perhaps 
>nowadays the BIOS and interface is set up to do all this while 

I think it's somewhere in the harddrive, probably a very early byte of
pagefile.sys  (or possibly the very presence of pagefile.sys) 

 But it's like a note on the refrigerator door.  It doesn't take any
power to stay there.     Compared to the schedule of tv shows to
record that my non-calbe-company-supplied DVR forgets if there is a
power failure,(while it does remember the tv shows it has recorded,
because they are stored on a harddrive or DVD.)  

>the electronics are actually powered down. But I doubt it, and 
>in any case what's wrong with just turning the thing off?

Hibernation brings you back to where you were when you turned the
computer off.  All the same programs are open and they're right where
you left them.   It's great.   One has to actually shut down
completely to make some updates take effect, like most security
updates from MS, the ones with the yellow shield in the systray,  and
I believe some poorly written programs can require one to shut down
completely (no hibernation) even earlier than that.  When things stop
working right, (after 3 or 4 or 7 days maybe), restarting the
computer, not just hibernating and waking up, can usually make it work
right again. 

Sleep, or Suspend, also brings you back to where you were, but with
those two, the RAM has not been copied to t he HDD, so if there is a
power failure not protected for by a Uninteruptable Power Supply, the
computer forgets everything that was in RAM.

I always save my data before Sleep and even before Hibernate.  One
time I intended to hibernate, but I pressed the wrong key and shut
down instead.  Had I not saved my date, it would have been gone. 
>
>Anyway, if that four year old laptop has had a lot of use, 
>then it is quite normal for the battery to suffer a bit. 
>Lithium-Ion batteries have built in circuitry to manage them 
>(mainly to stop them catching fire), this inevitably drains 
>the battery slowly over time and if the battery is on it's 
>last legs, that and whatever drain the PC may add to it even 
>when the machine should be off (or worse, in hibernation) may 
>well give you the loss of charge you experience.

 I'm not sure it does this all the time.   I hibernated my own
computer last night, and about 12 hours later, it was down to 95%.  In
6 days that would be 70%.    I'll have to keep better track. 
>
>As for keeping them on their chargers, unless the charging 
>system is poorly designed, I'd figure that should be fine. The 
>transformer will always chew a little bit of power though. 

So far, I only use the netbook when traveling, which I average about 2
weeks a year.  .   If I were home, I' guess I'd let it run down,
unless that is really a  bad thing to do. 

>converting it mostly into heat. Depending on the design, this 
>heat might be a problem (either in the transformer or the 
>laptop), but I'll leave you to figure how much damage it can 
>do.

Okay.    ;-)  

Thanks. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1829

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:57:04 AM UTC-6, micky wrote:
> Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
> 
> 
> 
> My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
> 
> bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook. 
> 
> 

As I understand "hibernation"...ram is loaded into the hard drive and uses the least amount of power. If you unplug a desktop that is hibernating, and plug it back-in days later...it won't "know" its been unplugged!
I've had my Acer netbook (3yrs old with a 9-cell) for weeks without a problem, so it may be the battery as said. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1834

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:27:02 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
<pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:57:04 AM UTC-6, micky wrote:
>> Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
>> 
>> bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook. 
>> 
>> 
>
>As I understand "hibernation"...ram is loaded into the hard drive and uses the least amount of power. If you unplug a desktop that is hibernating, and plug it back-in days later...it won't "know" its been unplugged!
>I've had my Acer netbook (3yrs old with a 9-cell) for weeks without a problem, so it may be the battery as said. 

I bought this used and it came with a 6-cell.  Supposed to be 6? oz.
heavier, than 3 cell, I think.  I didn't know there were 9-cell.
Another 6? ounces?

He said in the ebay ad that it was 2 years old, but I've found some
dates in the computer from 2008.   Yet this model, D250-1610, is only
2 years old, and Belarc says the four system passwords were all only
465 days old when I checked a couple days after I got the computer, so
it seems like the computer must be only 465 days old.   Maybe there's
something he did to make the battery start to  fail early??

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1830

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:57:04 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>
>Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
>
>My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
>bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook. 
>
>I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
>trouble with the battery,  but this month, the battery went from fully
>charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used.  I had
>hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger. 
>
>Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
>done to 40% remaining.   That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
>unplugged. 
>
>The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
>3-cell battery.   It took over an hour or more to recharge. 
>
>The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
>battery.  When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
>an hour to charge the last 1/3.   
>
>P.S.  Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
>house charger all the time, until this is resolved?
>
>Thanks.

I have a very nice Samsung Series 7 and it's behavior is exactly the
same as you've noticed. I soon learned NOT to leave it in sleep mode
for very long.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1835

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:21:29 -0600, Charlie Hoffpauir
<invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:57:04 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
>>
>>My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
>>bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook. 
>>
>>I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
>>trouble with the battery,  but this month, the battery went from fully
>>charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used.  I had
>>hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger. 
>>
>>Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
>>done to 40% remaining.   That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
>>unplugged. 
>>
>>The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
>>3-cell battery.   It took over an hour or more to recharge. 
>>
>>The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
>>battery.  When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
>>an hour to charge the last 1/3.   
>>
>>P.S.  Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
>>house charger all the time, until this is resolved?
>>
>>Thanks.
>
>I have a very nice Samsung Series 7 and it's behavior is exactly the
>same as you've noticed. I soon learned NOT to leave it in sleep mode
>for very long.

When you say Start / Shut Down, the only options showing are Standby,
Turn off, and Restart, but if you press Shift, Standby turns into
Hibernate.     However there is no need to press Shift.  Just press H
(for Hibernate) and it works even though that option is not showing. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1846

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:57:04 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>
>Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?

I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
brand of laptop I have. 
http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D

"Storing the battery:

Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If you
store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the battery could
fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself consumes power.

"because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!

If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one exclusively and keep
the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Make sure that it is
wrapped protectively and that nothing will be dropped on it. Do not
freeze the battery. Do not use old batteries. Avoid purchasing spare
lithium-ion batteries and storing them for later use. Do not buy old
stock, even if it is sold at clearance prices. While it makes sense to
have 2 or 3 extra batteries, so that you always have a fresh one
charged up and ready to go, if you buy batteries and store them for
years, they may not work when you decide to use them.

Consider removing the battery from your notebook when running on fixed
power. However, remember that when you have removed the battery from
your notebook while using it with an electrical outlet, the automatic
battery charger no longer keeps the battery charged."


My friend's, a 3-cell from the company that reconditioned his netbook
4 years ago, perhaps Acer itself, keeps its charge quite well. 

Mine, a 6-cell on an Acer that is only about 2 years old, loses its
charge much more quickly, 50% in a week or so.  Maybe the previous
owner kept the computer in a hot car



>My friend has an ACER Aspire One ZG5 netbook and I liked ti so much I
>bought something similar, an ACER Aspire One D250 netbook. 
>
>I used t he first one a year ago for almost 2 weeks, and had no
>trouble with the battery,  but this month, the battery went from fully
>charged to 1/3 charged in about 15 days when it wasn't used.  I had
>hibernated it, closed it, and unplugged the charger. 
>
>Now I see that my new one, which went unused for about a week, was
>done to 40% remaining.   That one too I had hibernated, closed, and
>unplugged. 
>
>The first is about 4 years old, was refurbished, and came with a
>3-cell battery.   It took over an hour or more to recharge. 
>
>The second was new I think, about 465 days old and came with a 6 cell
>battery.  When I got it, from ebay, it was 2/3 charged and took about
>an hour to charge the last 1/3.   
>
>P.S.  Is there a problem leaving an Acer netbook plugged in to the
>house charger all the time, until this is resolved?

Apparently that's better than leaving it unplugged. 
>
>Thanks.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1855

Somewhere on teh intarwebs micky wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:57:04 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
>
> I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
> brand of laptop I have.
> http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D
>
> "Storing the battery:
>
> Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
> should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
> discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If you
> store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the battery could
> fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself consumes power.
>
> "because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!

Yes, this has been the case for well over a decade now. The 'battery' is a 
collection of Li-Ion cells and some 'smart' circuitry which, amongst other 
things, monitors the state of each cell and attempts to level the load so 
that one cell aging prematurely doesn't take out the whole battery pack.

Also the PU in the battery keep track of things like the serial number of 
the battery, the number of cycles it's undergone and the general health of 
the cells / battery. If there isn't enough power left to keep the PU powered 
up then your battery is bricked - even if the cells are in 90% good 
condition!

It's for this reason that, if you're going to re-pack a battery you need to 
apply a source of current to the PU and associated circuitry before you 
disconect the old cells. I've seen it done, a bench-top variable PSU and a 
couple leads with crocodile clips.... Clip them in just the right place with 
just the right voltage dialed in and then, and only then - you can remove 
the old cells and solder in new ones. Of course if the old battery's already 
bricked due to zero current then you're SOOL.

It's not rocket science.
-- 
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a 
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1859

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:17:03 +1300, "~misfit~"
<shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote:

>Somewhere on teh intarwebs micky wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:57:04 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
>>
>> I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
>> brand of laptop I have.
>> http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D
>>
>> "Storing the battery:
>>
>> Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
>> should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
>> discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If you
>> store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the battery could
>> fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself consumes power.
>>
>> "because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!
>
>Yes, this has been the case for well over a decade now.

I just checked my emails from 10 years ago, and no one wrote me about
this.

> The 'battery' is a 
>collection of Li-Ion cells and some 'smart' circuitry which, amongst other 
>things, monitors the state of each cell and attempts to level the load so 
>that one cell aging prematurely doesn't take out the whole battery pack.

That sounds great, but it should do it for free.  "I paid for this
battery."
>
>Also the PU in the battery keep track of things like the serial number of 
>the battery, the number of cycles it's undergone and the general health of 
>the cells / battery. If there isn't enough power left to keep the PU powered 
>up then your battery is bricked - even if the cells are in 90% good 
>condition!

Sounds like too much regulation,  government regulation.. 

>It's for this reason that, if you're going to re-pack a battery you need to 
>apply a source of current to the PU and associated circuitry before you 
>disconect the old cells. I've seen it done, a bench-top variable PSU and a 
>couple leads with crocodile clips.... Clip them in just the right place with 
>just the right voltage dialed in and then, and only then - you can remove 
>the old cells and solder in new ones. Of course if the old battery's already 
>bricked due to zero current then you're SOOL.

That selttles it.  I'm not rebuilding any battery packs. 

>It's not rocket science.

I never said my limit was rocket science.  It's far below that. 

Thanks. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1861

Somewhere on teh intarwebs micky wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:17:03 +1300, "~misfit~"
> <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs micky wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:57:04 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why are my laptops discharging when hibernated?
>>>
>>> I came across some info on this, straight from Acer, which is the
>>> brand of laptop I have.
>>> http://acer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2384/session/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzE0MTQwMi9zaWQvaVN4N0Eqa2w%3D
>>>
>>> "Storing the battery:
>>>
>>> Do not charge up a battery, and then store it away. A stored battery
>>> should be used every three to four weeks. Let the battery fully
>>> discharge, then recharge to 40% if you plan to store it again. If
>>> you store a battery for longer than three to four weeks, the
>>> battery could fully discharge because the battery circuitry itself
>>> consumes power.
>>>
>>> "because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!
>>
>> Yes, this has been the case for well over a decade now.
>
> I just checked my emails from 10 years ago, and no one wrote me about
> this.

Are you in the field of battery back design and management then?

>> The 'battery' is a
>> collection of Li-Ion cells and some 'smart' circuitry which, amongst
>> other things, monitors the state of each cell and attempts to level
>> the load so that one cell aging prematurely doesn't take out the
>> whole battery pack.
>
> That sounds great, but it should do it for free.  "I paid for this
> battery."


All electronic circuits need to use power from somewhere. There's no such 
thing as a free electron.

>> Also the PU in the battery keep track of things like the serial
>> number of the battery, the number of cycles it's undergone and the
>> general health of the cells / battery. If there isn't enough power
>> left to keep the PU powered up then your battery is bricked - even
>> if the cells are in 90% good condition!
>
> Sounds like too much regulation,  government regulation..

Ok, are you.... Confused? It has nothing to do with governments. Without 
this smart battery management you'd be lucky to get 3 months from a battery 
pack. As it is I have 10 year old IBM X3x batteries that are only showing as 
haing a 20% wear level. That's phenomenal and completely impossible without 
the circuitry that monitors the cells, their temps when charging (and 
adjusts the charge current accordingly) and a bunch of other things.

>> It's for this reason that, if you're going to re-pack a battery you
>> need to apply a source of current to the PU and associated circuitry
>> before you disconect the old cells. I've seen it done, a bench-top
>> variable PSU and a couple leads with crocodile clips.... Clip them
>> in just the right place with just the right voltage dialed in and
>> then, and only then - you can remove the old cells and solder in new
>> ones. Of course if the old battery's already bricked due to zero
>> current then you're SOOL.
>
> That selttles it.  I'm not rebuilding any battery packs.

I might try it - if only because most of my machines don't have battery 
packs available off-the-shelf so anything I buy is going to be not only 
expensive but of iffy quality (and re-quire a non-bricked trade. If you do 
it yourself you can buy high-quality Japanese cells rather than commodity 
Chinese cells and end up with a battery pack that's can hold quite a bit 
more charge than the new one and wil last a good long time. can't be said 
for 80% of available re-builds.

>> It's not rocket science.
>
> I never said my limit was rocket science.  It's far below that.

LOL, me too.

> Thanks.

You're welcome.
-- 
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a 
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1862

micky formulated the question :
> "because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!
>
> If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one exclusively 
> and keep
> the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator.

Thank you for this little tip. I have a 4 yp laptop that has sat 
collecting dust because it would not charge. In fact it "seemed" as it 
would not "see" the charger. Could not get a power light to come on, 
even replaced the charger twice. I saw this today and thought what do I 
have to lose, it is seemingly dead as it sits. I took the battery off 
and stuck it in the freezer. For the heck of it I connected the charger 
to the laptop and guess what!?? I got a power light and the beast 
powered up. First time I've had it powered up in over 2 years. About 45 
minutes later I put the battery back in and it has accepted a full 
charge. I have to think the battery was low enough that the charge 
circuitry wouldn't let it charge. As long as the almost "dead" battery 
was in the laptop it wouldn't power up. Once the battery was not there 
it solved that part of the problem.

Thanks for a hint that restored at dead laptop!

Top the lurker

-- 
The field of humor is crowded only when Congress is in session. - Will 
Rogers

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1863

On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:45:56 -0500, Top <top1sg@suddenlink.invalid>
wrote:

>micky formulated the question :
>> "because the battery circuitry itself consumes power"!!!!!!!
>>
>> If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one exclusively 
>> and keep
>> the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator.
>
>Thank you for this little tip. I have a 4 yp laptop that has sat 
>collecting dust because it would not charge. In fact it "seemed" as it 
>would not "see" the charger. Could not get a power light to come on, 
>even replaced the charger twice. I saw this today and thought what do I 
>have to lose, it is seemingly dead as it sits. I took the battery off 
>and stuck it in the freezer. For the heck of it I connected the charger 
>to the laptop and guess what!?? I got a power light and the beast 
>powered up. First time I've had it powered up in over 2 years. About 45 
>minutes later I put the battery back in and it has accepted a full 
>charge. I have to think the battery was low enough that the charge 
>circuitry wouldn't let it charge. As long as the almost "dead" battery 
>was in the laptop it wouldn't power up. Once the battery was not there 
>it solved that part of the problem.
>
>Thanks for a hint that restored at dead laptop!

I'll have to remember this myself.    Come to think of it, I have a
laptop someone gave me becaue it was broken.  Their daughter literally
spilled Pepsi on the keyboard, and while that's not good, I would
think it would have dried up by now (3 years later) **.  And iirc, she
was sort of chuby.  If it was diet Pepsi, seems like there would be
even less residue to cause problems.  I'll take the battery out and
try it witout it.  I should have done that.   And I'll put the battery
in the freezer for an hour (my freezer is warmer than average) y i

**Really, does even sugar-based Pepsi conduct electricity well enough
to hurt a keyboard or whatever is under it?    Especially at 12 or 19
volts or whatever laptsps use?

>Top the lurker

A pleasure to be of help.   A day or two after I posted the previous
post, I came acorss another article by Acer that said one should take
one or two spare batteries with him so he'll always have a charged
one.   This and a couple other things were almost directly
contradictory to what I posted (by Acer.) . 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1864

micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> I'll have to remember this myself.    Come to think of it, I have a
> laptop someone gave me becaue it was broken.  Their daughter literally
> spilled Pepsi on the keyboard, and while that's not good, I would
> think it would have dried up by now (3 years later) **.  And iirc, she
> was sort of chuby.  If it was diet Pepsi, seems like there would be
> even less residue to cause problems.  I'll take the battery out and
> try it witout it.  I should have done that.   And I'll put the battery
> in the freezer for an hour (my freezer is warmer than average) y i

I wonder whether the cooling is helping the Lithium-Ion cells or simply
giving the control circuitry hell. I would suspect the second. In this
case it's worth keeping in mind that charging up under voltage
Lithium-Ion cells has the potential for causing a hot and perhaps
firery death for the battery. With this in mind, I'd think twice
before leaving the laptop to charge next to your curtains as normal
or in some other situation where it tempts a firery fate.

> **Really, does even sugar-based Pepsi conduct electricity well enough
> to hurt a keyboard or whatever is under it?    Especially at 12 or 19
> volts or whatever laptsps use?

Last year I pulled apart a laptop I was given in order to 1) replace the
fan that sounded like a lawn mower (literally) and 2) try to kill the
terrible rotting coffee smell that was emitted every time the laptop
warmed up. Inside, there was coffee residue everywhere but in the screen.
In areas on the motherboard where it was especially caked on, it seemed to
have corroded parts of the solder and formed lumps that I couldn't get
off in some areas for fear of breaking off components before the coffee
gave way. I was amazed the whole time that the thing was still working.

I completely disassembled everything but the screen then cleaned the
motherboard and other complex electronics by hand before washing
all the plastic and simple electronic parts in the sink. After a few
minutes on, the thing still stinks of coffee, but at least not quite
as bad.

The lesson I've learned is that this stuff might not short out after
a spill, but something like Pepsi can likely still corrode component
leads and solder. I also know how this can cause problems due to the
added resistance to connections. My advice: get in there and look at
the damage for yourself.

As for the conductivity of Pepsi, if you have a multi-meter, simply
pour a pool of Pepsi and use the resistance measurement function
to tell you its conductivity. If the multimeter shows infinate
resistance (a "1") on its highest scale while the probes are close,
then the Pepsi won't conduct anything meaningful at laptop voltages.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1865

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> I wonder whether the cooling is helping the Lithium-Ion cells or
> simply giving the control circuitry hell. I would suspect the second.
> In this case it's worth keeping in mind that charging up under voltage
> Lithium-Ion cells has the potential for causing a hot and perhaps
> firery death for the battery. With this in mind, I'd think twice
> before leaving the laptop to charge next to your curtains as normal
> or in some other situation where it tempts a firery fate.

It's things like mp3 players and some older cellphones that usually have 
fiery Li-Ion "batteries" (actually not a battery at all, rather a single 
cell used in 'dumb' mode). Part of the function of most laptop battery's 
electronics is to monitor temps, usually in at least two places in the 
pack - and to shut off or reduce charging current if / when temps go outside 
of a pre-defined range.

> Last year I pulled apart a laptop I was given in order to 1) replace
> the fan that sounded like a lawn mower (literally) and 2) try to kill
> the terrible rotting coffee smell that was emitted every time the
> laptop warmed up. Inside, there was coffee residue everywhere but in
> the screen. In areas on the motherboard where it was especially caked
> on, it seemed to have corroded parts of the solder and formed lumps
> that I couldn't get off in some areas for fear of breaking off
> components before the coffee gave way. I was amazed the whole time
> that the thing was still working.
>
> I completely disassembled everything but the screen then cleaned the
> motherboard and other complex electronics by hand before washing
> all the plastic and simple electronic parts in the sink. After a few
> minutes on, the thing still stinks of coffee, but at least not quite
> as bad.

As long as it's stripped down of all 'add-on' components a laptop's 
motherboard can be [a]safely soaked for a few minutes, then washed in warm 
water with a little mild detergent. As long as it's then rinsed thouroughly 
a couple times in similarly warm water afterwards and completely dried 
afterwards it should be fine[b].

[a] At your own risk of course. While I've safely done this myself I can't 
warrant that it will be fine for your machine - especially bearing in mind 
that there's likely to be an issue with it already or this wouldn't be 
undertaken.

[b] I live in New Zealand and know quite a few IT people, some of whom have 
worked for periods in the south Pacific Islands for periods of time. The 
environment there can be *extremely* hostile to electronics with fine salt 
spray blowing right across a lot of the low-lying islands.

I know of one guy in particular who worked in an island community in Samoa 
who would sell computers; both laptops and desktops, and offer a three-year 
warranty on them - but only if they were bought back for a week at the end 
of the first and second years. He would strip them down completely and he 
had slightly modified a dishwasher which he used to wash and dry the circuit 
boards of salty deposits each year. If customers were particularly close to 
the ocean he'd do it bi-annually.

IIRC afterwards he would 'mist' the boards (as well as a bunch of the stuff 
that he deemed too delicate to go through the washer) to the point wher 
ethey were dripping with pure isopropanol. He would then let that evaporate 
in a drying cabinet he had made up that was connected by ducts to a 
dehumidifier. He told me that the environment was so hostile that, if such a 
regime wasn't undertaken computers wouldn't usually last more than 18 months 
tops (and that most companies wouldn't give / honour warranties on hardware 
used in the islands).
-- 
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a 
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1866

On 17 Mar 2013, ~misfit~ wrote:

> It's things like mp3 players and some older cellphones that
> usually have fiery Li-Ion "batteries" (actually not a
> battery at all, rather a single cell used in 'dumb' mode).
> Part of the function of most laptop battery's electronics
> is to monitor temps, usually in at least two places in the 
> pack - and to shut off or reduce charging current if / when
> temps go outside of a pre-defined range.

Yes, only another part of that circuitry is usually to forbid 
the charging of the cells if they are under the voltage where 
they begin to deteriorate. If this part of the circuitry is 
tricked into allowing the battery to be charged again, what's to 
say the other safety features aren't disabled as well?

>> I completely disassembled everything but the screen then
>> cleaned the motherboard and other complex electronics by
>> hand before washing all the plastic and simple electronic
>> parts in the sink. After a few minutes on, the thing still
>> stinks of coffee, but at least not quite as bad.
> 
> As long as it's stripped down of all 'add-on' components a
> laptop's motherboard can be [a]safely soaked for a few
> minutes, then washed in warm water with a little mild
> detergent. As long as it's then rinsed thouroughly a couple
> times in similarly warm water afterwards and completely
> dried afterwards it should be fine[b].

Yes I've heard of this being done, I've never been brave enough 
to do it myself though. My main fear is leaving moisture trapped 
in areas of the board, plus in that case some of the residue 
needed scraping with a screwdriver to remove, even after soaking 
with methylated spirits.

> I know of one guy in particular who worked in an island
> community in Samoa who would sell computers; both laptops
> and desktops, and offer a three-year warranty on them - but
> only if they were bought back for a week at the end of the
> first and second years. He would strip them down completely
> and he had slightly modified a dishwasher which he used to
> wash and dry the circuit boards of salty deposits each
> year. If customers were particularly close to the ocean
> he'd do it bi-annually. 
> 
> IIRC afterwards he would 'mist' the boards (as well as a
> bunch of the stuff that he deemed too delicate to go
> through the washer) to the point wher ethey were dripping
> with pure isopropanol. He would then let that evaporate in
> a drying cabinet he had made up that was connected by ducts
> to a dehumidifier. He told me that the environment was so
> hostile that, if such a regime wasn't undertaken computers
> wouldn't usually last more than 18 months tops (and that
> most companies wouldn't give / honour warranties on
> hardware used in the islands).

Facinating, I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem that 
quickly.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1867

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> On 17 Mar 2013, ~misfit~ wrote:
>
>> It's things like mp3 players and some older cellphones that
>> usually have fiery Li-Ion "batteries" (actually not a
>> battery at all, rather a single cell used in 'dumb' mode).
>> Part of the function of most laptop battery's electronics
>> is to monitor temps, usually in at least two places in the
>> pack - and to shut off or reduce charging current if / when
>> temps go outside of a pre-defined range.
>
> Yes, only another part of that circuitry is usually to forbid
> the charging of the cells if they are under the voltage where
> they begin to deteriorate. If this part of the circuitry is
> tricked into allowing the battery to be charged again, what's to
> say the other safety features aren't disabled as well?

What I think happens is that, in one way or another, the circuitry is 
temporarilly changed briefly (until room temperature is reached) to allow a 
trickle charge through when it normally wouldn't. If the cell is actually 
OK, just has been let drain too far, then charging will continue and, in 
effect the battery will be bought back to life.

If in fact the cell had been refused charge for some other reason - such as 
it had deteriorated due to having reached the end of it's useful life then 
it would get hot under charge, and wouldn't hold charge properly, and the 
now room-temperature monitoring circuits would pick that up and 'brick' it 
again.

My point is that (I think) all you are doing is tricking the control circuit 
for as long as it takes the battery to warm up - not permanently. If any 
'marked-defective' cells that were really only drained too far have managed 
to take enough charge in that time for the PU to re-assess them as no longer 
being defective then I would think there is no danger. It's almost the same 
thing that would occur when replacing cells; The ciruitry reassesses them 
and then treats them accordingly.

I'm told that a re-packed battery that uses the original protection and 
charging circuitry has to be cycled several times until the PU updates the 
state of the cells, stores and then starts to act on the new information. I 
think that this same proccess can be made to happen sometimes by chilling 
the battery pack and applying a charge to it while it's still cold. If cells 
were erronously marked as being dead due to sitting too long then there's a 
chance they can be given enough charge while the PU is basically asleep for 
it to then re-assess them - and sometimes that's all they needed.

There is almost no chance of thermal runaway as, soon after leaving the 
freezer the protection circuits become operational again - in fact I think 
that it's likely always operational to some degree (heh!) - just that maybe 
the sub-zero temps delete or temporarilly obfuscate stored cell info from 
VRAM.

Anyway, in most laptops there is a second redundant protection circuit on 
the planar (I know that there is / was on IBM laptops - I think that most 
others would be the same.)

>>> I completely disassembled everything but the screen then
>>> cleaned the motherboard and other complex electronics by
>>> hand before washing all the plastic and simple electronic
>>> parts in the sink. After a few minutes on, the thing still
>>> stinks of coffee, but at least not quite as bad.
>>
>> As long as it's stripped down of all 'add-on' components a
>> laptop's motherboard can be [a]safely soaked for a few
>> minutes, then washed in warm water with a little mild
>> detergent. As long as it's then rinsed thouroughly a couple
>> times in similarly warm water afterwards and completely
>> dried afterwards it should be fine[b].
>
> Yes I've heard of this being done, I've never been brave enough
> to do it myself though. My main fear is leaving moisture trapped
> in areas of the board, plus in that case some of the residue
> needed scraping with a screwdriver to remove, even after soaking
> with methylated spirits.

That's why I rinse in quite warm water a couple times - so that when all 
trace of detergent has gone the PCB is still warm. Hopefully warm enough so 
that there's not enough moisture trappen anywhere to be trouble. After the 
few times I've done it I've either left it for a few days in the hot water 
cupboard or sat it in a very low oven with the door open. (Aim for about 
25慢 above room temp and dry air for ~30 mins if done in the oven.)

>> I know of one guy in particular who worked in an island
>> community in Samoa who would sell computers; both laptops
>> and desktops, and offer a three-year warranty on them - but
>> only if they were bought back for a week at the end of the
>> first and second years. He would strip them down completely
>> and he had slightly modified a dishwasher which he used to
>> wash and dry the circuit boards of salty deposits each
>> year. If customers were particularly close to the ocean
>> he'd do it bi-annually.
>>
>> IIRC afterwards he would 'mist' the boards (as well as a
>> bunch of the stuff that he deemed too delicate to go
>> through the washer) to the point wher ethey were dripping
>> with pure isopropanol. He would then let that evaporate in
>> a drying cabinet he had made up that was connected by ducts
>> to a dehumidifier. He told me that the environment was so
>> hostile that, if such a regime wasn't undertaken computers
>> wouldn't usually last more than 18 months tops (and that
>> most companies wouldn't give / honour warranties on
>> hardware used in the islands).
>
> Facinating, I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem that
> quickly.

Apparently, yes. It was a reliable source. Those humid and salty South 
Pacific Islands can be murder on (unprotected - or well ventillated as in 
cooling airflow) PCBs - especially ones that have very fine traces and tiny 
SM components.
-- 
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a 
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1868

On 17 Mar 2013, ~misfit~ wrote:

> There is almost no chance of thermal runaway as, soon after
> leaving the freezer the protection circuits become
> operational again - in fact I think that it's likely always
> operational to some degree (heh!) - just that maybe the
> sub-zero temps delete or temporarilly obfuscate stored cell
> info from VRAM.

Though it's still an unknown. Without analysing the circuit, 
you can't tell whether the battery has re-checked itself or 
the circuitry has a miss-designed failure mode where it allows 
the battery to be charged "dumb". Back to my original point, 
it seems enough of a risk to keep the machine away from the 
flammables while left on the charge the first few times.

> Anyway, in most laptops there is a second redundant
> protection circuit on the planar (I know that there is /
> was on IBM laptops - I think that most others would be the
> same.) 

I don't know in general, but some IBM ThinkPads used Lithium-
Ion batteries without control circuitry inside, hence they 
must have put this inside the Laptop.

> That's why I rinse in quite warm water a couple times - so
> that when all trace of detergent has gone the PCB is still
> warm. Hopefully warm enough so that there's not enough
> moisture trappen anywhere to be trouble. After the few
> times I've done it I've either left it for a few days in
> the hot water cupboard or sat it in a very low oven with
> the door open. (Aim for about 25慢 above room temp and dry
> air for ~30 mins if done in the oven.) 

OK, I might give it a go next time I have a machine I don't 
care about too much.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.sys.laptops

csiph-web