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Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II

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  Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II roger.shimada@gmail.com - 2016-07-09 20:42 -0700
    Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-10 01:30 -0500
      Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II roger.shimada@gmail.com - 2016-07-10 15:09 -0700
        Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> - 2016-07-10 19:34 -0400
          Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-07-10 17:48 -0700
      Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II David Schmidt <schmidtd@my-deja.com> - 2016-07-11 09:40 -0400
        Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II roger.shimada@gmail.com - 2016-07-11 18:41 -0700
          Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II David Schmidt <schmidtd@my-deja.com> - 2016-07-11 23:11 -0400
    Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Delfs <eeastman@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 05:55 -0700
      Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Antoine Vignau <antoine.vignau@laposte.net> - 2016-07-18 07:34 -0700
        Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II John Brooks <jbrooks@blueshiftinc.com> - 2016-07-18 09:15 -0700
        Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II "Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 10:23 -0700
          Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-07-18 11:27 -0700
            Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II John Brooks <jbrooks@blueshiftinc.com> - 2016-07-19 08:46 -0700
              Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II "Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:07 -0700
                Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II retrogear <larrygr510@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:42 -0700
                  Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Antoine Vignau <antoine.vignau@laposte.net> - 2016-07-19 12:43 -0700
                    Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II "Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 13:04 -0700
                      Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> - 2016-07-19 16:42 -0400
                  Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II "Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 13:09 -0700
                    Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-19 16:10 -0500
                      Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II "Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 14:25 -0700
                        Assembler optimizations, was Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> - 2016-07-19 22:35 +0000
                          Re: Assembler optimizations, was Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-19 23:28 -0500
                        Re: Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-19 23:28 -0500

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#28179 — Booting the right ProDOS 8 for any Apple II

From my just created http://roger-s-stuff.blogspot.com/2016/07/booting-right-prodos-8-for-any-apple-ii.html :

Apple II ProDOS 8 version 2 requires:
* At least 64K of RAM,
* A //e compatible machine, and
* A 65C02 microprocessor.

(The original) Apple ][ and Apple ][+ users must use ProDOS 1.x.

So continuing the time honored technology tradition of creating solutions in search of a problem, I created a front end to start one of the two copies of ProDOS in the PRODOS system file.

When a //e compatible (which includes the //c and IIgs) with a 65C02 is found, ProDOS 2 is started. Otherwise ProDOS 1 is started.

Pressing '1' or '2' during the considerably longer boot time forces the start of the selected ProDOS.

A CiderPress friendly copy is at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7nZUWYxvJulZVVuMkI2OTZuS2M which is over 33K (67 blocks) and contains ProDOS 1.9 and 2.0.3.

A zipped 140K disk image is at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7nZUWYxvJulSk50XzV3R21CQVE and contains:
* The aforementioned PRODOS (1.9 and 2.0.3)
* BASIC.SYSTEM
* PRODOS1AND2.BIN - the front end
* PRODOS1AND2.HLP - BASIC program with the help text for PRODOS1AND2
* PRODOS1AND2 - ugly little BASIC program to create your own PRODOS from two other copies of PRODOS
Warning: Two copies of ProDOS 2 probably won't work; there isn't enough RAM.

Note that PRODOS1AND2 and PRODOS1AND2.HLP display upper and lower case.

Thanks to Andrew Jacobs for his cross assembler https://sourceforge.net/projects/dev65/.

This is intended for those wanting to create Apple ][+ friendly ProDOS disks.

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#28181

<roger.shimada@gmail.com> wrote:
> From my just created
> http://roger-s-stuff.blogspot.com/2016/07/booting-right-prodos-8-for-any-apple-ii.html :
> 
> Apple II ProDOS 8 version 2 requires:
> * At least 64K of RAM,
> * A //e compatible machine, and
> * A 65C02 microprocessor.
> 
> (The original) Apple ][ and Apple ][+ users must use ProDOS 1.x.
> 
> So continuing the time honored technology tradition of creating solutions
> in search of a problem, I created a front end to start one of the two
> copies of ProDOS in the PRODOS system file.
> 
> When a //e compatible (which includes the //c and IIgs) with a 65C02 is
> found, ProDOS 2 is started. Otherwise ProDOS 1 is started.
> 
> Pressing '1' or '2' during the considerably longer boot time forces the
> start of the selected ProDOS.
> 
> A CiderPress friendly copy is at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7nZUWYxvJulZVVuMkI2OTZuS2M which is
> over 33K (67 blocks) and contains ProDOS 1.9 and 2.0.3.
> 
> A zipped 140K disk image is at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7nZUWYxvJulSk50XzV3R21CQVE and contains:
> * The aforementioned PRODOS (1.9 and 2.0.3)
> * BASIC.SYSTEM
> * PRODOS1AND2.BIN - the front end
> * PRODOS1AND2.HLP - BASIC program with the help text for PRODOS1AND2
> * PRODOS1AND2 - ugly little BASIC program to create your own PRODOS from
> two other copies of PRODOS
> Warning: Two copies of ProDOS 2 probably won't work; there isn't enough RAM.
> 
> Note that PRODOS1AND2 and PRODOS1AND2.HLP display upper and lower case.
> 
> Thanks to Andrew Jacobs for his cross assembler https://sourceforge.net/projects/dev65/.
> 
> This is intended for those wanting to create Apple ][+ friendly ProDOS disks.
> 

Since ProDOS 1.9 works perfectly on all 64K machines, and any application
on a "universal" disk will run under 1.9, what is the benefit to selecting
a ProDOS version dynamically?
-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II:  http://michaeljmahon.com

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#28185

On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 1:30:12 AM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> what is the benefit to selecting a ProDOS version dynamically?

It's mainly there for testing. This is from Virtual II as a II+:


                A00,% II

     P2/DOS 8 V2.0.3      06-M!9-93

  REQUIRES ENHANCED APPLE IIE OR LATER



C/092)'(4 A00,% C/-054%2, I.#., 1983-93
          A,, R)'(43 R%3%26%$.

As far as I can tell, the major benefit of ProDOS 2 is the automatic mapping of more than 2 SmartPort volumes on a device to character slots. (Useful on old CFFA cards; I don't know how the CFFA3000 deals with this.)

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#28186

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016, roger.shimada@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 1:30:12 AM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> what is the benefit to selecting a ProDOS version dynamically?
>
> It's mainly there for testing. This is from Virtual II as a II+:
>
>
>                A00,% II
>
>     P2/DOS 8 V2.0.3      06-M!9-93
>
>  REQUIRES ENHANCED APPLE IIE OR LATER
>
>
>
> C/092)'(4 A00,% C/-054%2, I.#., 1983-93
>          A,, R)'(43 R%3%26%$.
>
> As far as I can tell, the major benefit of ProDOS 2 is the automatic mapping of more than 2 SmartPort volumes on a device to character slots. (Useful on old CFFA cards; I don't know how the CFFA3000 deals with this.)
>

It actually doesn't need an Enhanced //e, only a 65SC02, 65C02 or 65816.

-uso.

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#28187

In article <alpine.BSF.2.02.1607101934050.47777@frieza.hoshinet.org>,
 Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Jul 2016, roger.shimada@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 1:30:12 AM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> >> what is the benefit to selecting a ProDOS version dynamically?
> >
> > It's mainly there for testing. This is from Virtual II as a II+:
> >
> >
> >                A00,% II
> >
> >     P2/DOS 8 V2.0.3      06-M!9-93
> >
> >  REQUIRES ENHANCED APPLE IIE OR LATER
> >
> >
> >
> > C/092)'(4 A00,% C/-054%2, I.#., 1983-93
> >          A,, R)'(43 R%3%26%$.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the major benefit of ProDOS 2 is the automatic 
> > mapping of more than 2 SmartPort volumes on a device to character slots. 
> > (Useful on old CFFA cards; I don't know how the CFFA3000 deals with this.)
> >
> 
> It actually doesn't need an Enhanced //e, only a 65SC02, 65C02 or 65816.
> 
> -uso.

And lowercase/mousetext character set ROM. (Unless you don't care about 
the "garble" as shown above) 

The ROM and the "65C02-alike" processor is the difference between a "not 
enhanced" and "enhanced" //e

-- 
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

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#28189

On 7/10/2016 2:30 AM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> <roger.shimada@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From my just created
>> http://roger-s-stuff.blogspot.com/2016/07/booting-right-prodos-8-for-any-apple-ii.html :
>>  [...]
>
> Since ProDOS 1.9 works perfectly on all 64K machines, and any application
> on a "universal" disk will run under 1.9, what is the benefit to selecting
> a ProDOS version dynamically?

That would actually be a really great thing for ADTPro.  The boot 
diskette I supply has ProDOS 1.9 on it because of its near-universality, 
as you point out.  But there is true benefit to going to ProDOS 2.x for 
machines that can handle it because drives are enumerated 
differently/better - and more types of drives and partitions can be 
immediately recognized rather than having to create your own boot 
diskette (or run from some other kind of boot device).  There are cases 
where some drives that will be "missing" if you boot with 1.9 that are 
visible with 2.0.3.  I have the bug reports to prove it. :-)

So this thread got me to thinking.  I am really sensitive about boot 
times, so I'd be unwilling to pay the price to load _both_ and then 
discard one.  But I might consider a scheme where a machID is checked at 
boot0 time, then a decision is made which then loads the appropriate 
PRODOS chunk.  Then again - it only serves to complicate bare-metal 
bootstrapping.

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#28197

On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 8:40:24 AM UTC-5, schmidtd wrote:
> I am really sensitive about boot times, so I'd be unwilling to pay the
> price to load _both_ and then discard one.

Oh I know what you mean. I had considered writing a PRODOS that turned around and loaded PRODOS1 or PRODOS2.

However to avoid needing custom boot blocks, it would mostly just be another copy of the boot blocks and I would like to avoid dealing with 5.25 disk code.

Since it would be its own program it should provide proper error handling. (Such a program should initialize the text screen anyway, just to tell the user which ProDOS it's loading.)

So I tried the simplest approach, which pleasantly surprised me when it worked.

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#28198

On 7/11/2016 9:41 PM, roger.shimada@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 8:40:24 AM UTC-5, schmidtd wrote:
>> I am really sensitive about boot times, so I'd be unwilling to pay the
>> price to load _both_ and then discard one.
>
> Oh I know what you mean. I had considered writing a PRODOS that turned around and loaded PRODOS1 or PRODOS2.
>
> However to avoid needing custom boot blocks, it would mostly just be another copy of the boot blocks and I would like to avoid dealing with 5.25 disk code.
>
> Since it would be its own program it should provide proper error handling. (Such a program should initialize the text screen anyway, just to tell the user which ProDOS it's loading.)
>
> So I tried the simplest approach, which pleasantly surprised me when it worked.

Absolutely, I am in no way disagreeing with your approach.  I'm no 
stranger to custom boot code, so that's just the first place my mind went.

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#28233

On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 10:42:54 PM UTC-5, roger....@gmail.com wrote:
> From my just created http://roger-s-stuff.blogspot.com/2016/07/booting-right-prodos-8-for-any-apple-ii.html :
...
> This is intended for those wanting to create Apple ][+ friendly ProDOS disks.

So is there source code available for ProDOS?  Would it be desirable to modify the 1.9 code to get the smartport mapping enhancements in 2.03?

Thanks,
Ed

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#28234

Or take the source code of 2.0.3, replace the 65c02 code with 6502 code and call it 2.0.4.
av

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#28235

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Or take the source code of 2.0.3, replace the 65c02 code with 6502 code and call it 2.0.4.
> av

I vote for this. But IMO it should be called ver 2.4 and use a version byte of $24 since current 2.0.3 has a version byte of $23 which does not make much sense.

-JB
Twitter: @JBrooksBSI

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#28236

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Or take the source code of 2.0.3, replace the 65c02 code with 6502 code and call it 2.0.4.
> av

Well shoot, another project to add to the DOS TODO ... :-)

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#28237

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-6, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' wrote:
> On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> > Or take the source code of 2.0.3, replace the 65c02 code with 6502 code and call it 2.0.4.
> > av
> 
> Well shoot, another project to add to the DOS TODO ... :-)



I wonder if would even be that complicated.  Prodos v1.9 can handle up to 4 smartport devices.  I don't have the source for v1.9, but some of the remapping code must already be there.  So extending the smartport to other slots should almost seem trivial.

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#28261

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 11:27:21 AM UTC-7, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
> On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-6, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' wrote:
> > On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> > > Or take the source code of 2.0.3, replace the 65c02 code with 6502 code and call it 2.0.4.
> > > av
> > 
> > Well shoot, another project to add to the DOS TODO ... :-)
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if would even be that complicated.  Prodos v1.9 can handle up to 4 smartport devices.  I don't have the source for v1.9, but some of the remapping code must already be there.  So extending the smartport to other slots should almost seem trivial.

It looks like the P8 2.03 device search/add logic is about 512 bytes. Throughout ProDOS I see about 80 STZ instructions, most of them in the core P8 MLI and the quit code. I'm not sure if Apple also used 65c02 inc A or lda/sta (dp) in addition to stz, but my guess is we'd need to find about 200 bytes to make a full-function P8 2.4 which was 6502 compatible.

I'll keep investigating.

-JB

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#28262

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 8:46:58 AM UTC-7, John Brooks wrote:
> It looks like the P8 2.03 device search/add logic is about 512 bytes.

You wouldn't happen to have a disassembly of this by chance?


> Throughout ProDOS I see about 80 STZ instructions, most of them in the core P8 MLI and the quit code. 

Is this a contiguous memory block(s)?

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#28263

> 
> You wouldn't happen to have a disassembly of this by chance?
> 

Look for prodos203src.zip here:
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/programming/assembler/
My disassembly work from 3 years ago. Search for label smartprt

Larry G

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#28264

Despite the quality of Larry's work, it would be better to work from Apple's source code.
av

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#28265

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 12:43:07 PM UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Despite the quality of Larry's work, it would be better to work from Apple's source code.
> av

Ah, that it explains it -- thanks Antoine!
I didn't think Apple had released the source for 2.0.3 !
Pity.

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#28267

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 12:43:07 PM UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>> Despite the quality of Larry's work, it would be better to work from Apple's source code.
>> av
>
> Ah, that it explains it -- thanks Antoine!
> I didn't think Apple had released the source for 2.0.3 !
> Pity.
>

There's 1.7; maybe it could be reconstituted from there?

-uso.

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#28266

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 11:42:55 AM UTC-7, retrogear wrote:
> Look for prodos203src.zip here:
> My disassembly work from 3 years ago. Search for label smartprt

Thanks Larry.

Line #1269 for those interested ...

         stz   A4L                      force a prodos status call
         stz   buf                      dummy pointer
         stz   bloknml                  # of bytes to transfer
         stz   bloknml+1


Looks like there are various single instructions scattered here and there.

i.e. Line #8510
showfiles stz	valcnt
         stz   topname			init top filename index.

         stz   valcnt
         stz   valcnt

Looks like a perfect job for a MACRO so it can automatically emit the proper 6502 opcodes.

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