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Groups > comp.sys.apple2.programmer > #2386 > unrolled thread

Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators

Started bygids.rs@sasktel.net
First post2016-02-28 21:02 -0800
Last post2018-10-01 07:27 -0700
Articles 5 on this page of 45 — 16 participants

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Contents

  Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-28 21:02 -0800
    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators qkumba <peter.ferrie@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:05 -0800
    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-29 09:07 -0800
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 12:57 -0800
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-02-29 17:50 -0800
    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-29 17:44 -0800
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-29 18:38 -0800
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-02-29 18:46 -0800
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-29 18:53 -0800
        Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-01 00:11 -0800
          Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 05:17 -0800
          Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 10:38 -0600
            Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators qkumba <peter.ferrie@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 11:56 -0800
              Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 12:13 -0800
              Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 15:32 -0600
                Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators qkumba <peter.ferrie@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 22:47 -0800
            Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 17:28 -0600
              Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 18:50 -0800
                Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 19:25 -0800
                  Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-03-01 22:03 -0800
                    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-02 20:49 -0800
                      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-03 14:48 -0800
                Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 20:02 -0800
                  Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 07:48 -0800
                    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-03-03 08:05 -0800
                      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 09:24 -0800
                    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-03 22:51 -0600
                      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-03-03 21:34 -0800
                        Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-04 00:50 -0600
                          Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Scott Hemphill <hemphill@hemphills.net> - 2016-03-04 10:47 -0500
                            Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators qkumba <peter.ferrie@gmail.com> - 2018-09-05 20:41 -0700
                              Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Antoine Vignau <antoine.vignau@laposte.net> - 2018-09-06 09:13 -0700
                                Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators qkumba <peter.ferrie@gmail.com> - 2018-09-06 10:33 -0700
                              Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2018-09-06 17:58 -0500
    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators John Brooks <jbrooks@blueshiftinc.com> - 2018-09-06 22:26 -0700
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators John Brooks <jbrooks@blueshiftinc.com> - 2018-09-07 18:08 -0700
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators John Brooks <jbrooks@blueshiftinc.com> - 2018-09-07 18:11 -0700
    Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators the.ertceps@gmail.com - 2018-09-29 05:03 -0700
      Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators James Davis <JPD.Enterprises@outlook.com> - 2018-09-29 10:24 -0700
        Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Marco Verpelli <mverpelli@libero.it> - 2018-09-29 10:30 -0700
        Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Brian Patrie <bpatrie@bellsouth.spamisicky.net> - 2018-09-29 12:36 -0500
          Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2018-09-29 12:41 -0500
            Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators Andy McFadden <thefadden@gmail.com> - 2018-09-29 21:06 -0700
            Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators James Davis <JPD.Enterprises@outlook.com> - 2018-09-30 19:28 -0700
              Re: Streamlining Applesoft - Random number generators "Frank M." <frank_o_rama@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-01 07:27 -0700

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#4791

FromBrian Patrie <bpatrie@bellsouth.spamisicky.net>
Date2018-09-29 12:36 -0500
Message-ID<pood6v$nu8$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#4789
On 2018-09-29 12:24, James Davis wrote:
> On Saturday, September 29, 2018 at 5:03:12 AM UTC-7, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>> depending on what you're doing and how intensive it it, I read on a machine that had no practical way of producing random numbers, was to simply have it sit there count from 1-... and when you need a number you pull it out of the loop.  In the original case it counted while waiting for input.  But it could be adapted to other uses.
> 
> Doesn't something similar for generating random numbers occur in the Apple II monitor?

Yes.  The Monitor's KEYIN subroutine increments $4E & 4F whilst waiting 
for a key.

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#4792

FromMichael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com>
Date2018-09-29 12:41 -0500
Message-ID<cfudnRfGn6b9JDLGnZ2dnUU7-f_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#4791
Brian Patrie <bpatrie@bellsouth.spamisicky.net> wrote:
> On 2018-09-29 12:24, James Davis wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 29, 2018 at 5:03:12 AM UTC-7, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>> depending on what you're doing and how intensive it it, I read on a
>>> machine that had no practical way of producing random numbers, was to
>>> simply have it sit there count from 1-... and when you need a number
>>> you pull it out of the loop.  In the original case it counted while
>>> waiting for input.  But it could be adapted to other uses.
>> 
>> Doesn't something similar for generating random numbers occur in the Apple II monitor?
> 
> Yes.  The Monitor's KEYIN subroutine increments $4E & 4F whilst waiting 
> for a key.
> 

From a practical point of view, the indeterminacy of user interaction
timing is the only real source of entropy for an Apple II. 

-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II:  http://michaeljmahon.com

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#4793

FromAndy McFadden <thefadden@gmail.com>
Date2018-09-29 21:06 -0700
Message-ID<b8817f8a-0768-43cb-bd4d-56dd491e7d52@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#4792
On Saturday, September 29, 2018 at 10:41:58 AM UTC-7, mjm...@aol.com wrote:
> From a practical point of view, the indeterminacy of user interaction
> timing is the only real source of entropy for an Apple II. 

One of the things I discovered while examining the game Starship Commander is that, if you boot directly into the game from power-up, the game makes the same "random" choices.  It turns out that it uses the value at $4e-4f to seed the Applesoft RNG, but it doesn't actually wait for keyboard input first.

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#4794

FromJames Davis <JPD.Enterprises@outlook.com>
Date2018-09-30 19:28 -0700
Message-ID<0cb343fa-e6c3-40c3-bb0a-4e9317bf0edb@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#4792
On Saturday, September 29, 2018 at 10:41:58 AM UTC-7, mjm...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> From a practical point of view, the indeterminacy of user interaction
> timing is the only real source of entropy for an Apple II. 
> 
> -- 
> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II:  http://michaeljmahon.com

The source of entropy everywhere, forever and always, is the big bang!  ;-)

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#4795

From"Frank M." <frank_o_rama@hotmail.com>
Date2018-10-01 07:27 -0700
Message-ID<72284357-f1ff-4a69-a210-b2fa32a0def1@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#4794
I have a rare card in my ][+ which was used for Extra-Sensory Perception research. It's a hardware random number generator which continually outputs random bits to the entire slot memory.

I've tried to "influence" the stream of random numbers using only my mind, but have been unable to produce a non-random stream. :)

http://paranormaltrickster.blogspot.com/2009/12/psychophysical-research-laboratories.html

f


On Sunday, September 30, 2018 at 7:28:07 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
> 
> The source of entropy everywhere, forever and always, is the big bang!  ;-)

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