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Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux?

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  Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 11:07 -0800
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> - 2017-03-08 16:26 -0500
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? "Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> - 2017-03-08 16:21 -0600
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 15:10 -0800
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? ctar@google.com - 2017-03-09 09:48 -0800
            Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 10:36 -0800
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? yewsiedu@gmail.com - 2017-07-03 21:46 -0700
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? David Schmenk <dschmenk@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 11:23 -0700
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 14:47 -0800
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> - 2017-03-08 23:36 -0500
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 10:31 -0800
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? "Mark D. Overholser" <marko@markoverholser.com> - 2017-03-08 14:24 -0800
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 15:13 -0800
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? wade kemp <wadeakemp@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 16:30 -0800
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 20:12 -0800
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Steven Hirsch <snhirsch@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 12:56 -0500
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> - 2017-03-11 13:12 -0500
            Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 13:18 -0800
              Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 21:29 -0700
                Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Antoine Vignau <antoine.vignau@laposte.net> - 2017-03-14 14:24 -0700
                  Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 14:32 -0700
                    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> - 2017-03-14 17:46 -0400
                      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 15:15 -0700
                    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Brian Patrie <bpatrie@bellsouth.spamisicky.net> - 2017-03-15 13:57 -0500
                      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 12:45 -0700
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 13:16 -0800
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? mdj <mdj.mdj@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 22:10 -0700
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 06:05 -0700
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? "T. Joseph Carter" <tjcarter@spiritsubstancecom.dontspam.me> - 2017-07-06 17:02 +0000
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? syss1988alumni@gmail.com - 2017-03-23 08:42 -0700
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 14:25 -0700
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 16:32 -0700
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? ultramagnus_tcv <mikew@thecomputervalet.com> - 2017-04-11 19:36 -0500
            Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> - 2017-04-18 12:20 -0700
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? carter.tjoseph@gmail.com - 2017-07-01 05:19 -0700
            Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Hugh Hood <hughhood@earthlink.net> - 2017-07-03 10:16 -0500
              On NNTP clients and Google Groups (Was: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux?) carter.tjoseph@gmail.com - 2017-07-06 05:54 -0700
                Re: On NNTP clients and Google Groups (Was: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux?) "T. Joseph Carter" <tjcarter@spiritsubstancecom.dontspam.me> - 2017-07-06 16:11 +0000
      Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? markpmlim@yahoo.com.sg - 2017-04-29 18:14 -0700
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? ultramagnus_tcv <mikew@thecomputervalet.com> - 2017-04-30 11:22 -0500
          Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Nick Westgate <nick.westgate@gmail.com> - 2017-05-01 20:25 -0700
            Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? ultramagnus_tcv <mikew@thecomputervalet.com> - 2017-05-02 22:24 -0500
        Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? "T. Joseph Carter" <tjcarter@spiritsubstancecom.dontspam.me> - 2017-07-06 16:27 +0000
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? carter.tjoseph@gmail.com - 2017-07-06 06:28 -0700
    Re: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux? Bill Chatfield <billchatfield1@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 07:49 -0700

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#3367

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:24:31 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Why Calvados?

Calvados is an Apple brandy.  I didn't want to use the CiderPress name since that is someone else's project.  I wanted something related to Apples and it was the only thing I could think of.  If you've got a better idea I am open to suggestions.

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#3368

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Leeland Heins wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:24:31 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>> Why Calvados?
>
> Calvados is an Apple brandy.  I didn't want to use the CiderPress name 
> since that is someone else's project.  I wanted something related to 
> Apples and it was the only thing I could think of.  If you've got a 
> better idea I am open to suggestions.
>

I got the reference right away, but that's because I translated the 
explanation of the name in an anime sub I worked on (where Calvados was 
the codename of a sniper).

-uso.

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#3369

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:46:37 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Leeland Heins wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:24:31 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> >> Why Calvados?
> >
> > Calvados is an Apple brandy.  I didn't want to use the CiderPress name 
> > since that is someone else's project.  I wanted something related to 
> > Apples and it was the only thing I could think of.  If you've got a 
> > better idea I am open to suggestions.
> >
> 
> I got the reference right away, but that's because I translated the 
> explanation of the name in an anime sub I worked on (where Calvados was 
> the codename of a sniper).
> 
> -uso.

Cool...  I went googling for things made out of Cider...  Calvados was the coolest thing that came up in my searches.  I've always liked Apple brandy.

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#3373

On 2017-03-14 16:32, Leeland Heins wrote:
 > On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:24:31 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
 >> Why Calvados?
 >
 > Calvados is an Apple brandy.  I didn't want to use the CiderPress
 > name since that is someone else's project.  I wanted something
 > related to Apples and it was the only thing I could think of.
 > If you've got a better idea I am open to suggestions.

I like it!  :)

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#3374

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 1:57:25 PM UTC-5, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2017-03-14 16:32, Leeland Heins wrote:
>  > On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:24:31 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>  >> Why Calvados?
>  >
>  > Calvados is an Apple brandy.  I didn't want to use the CiderPress
>  > name since that is someone else's project.  I wanted something
>  > related to Apples and it was the only thing I could think of.
>  > If you've got a better idea I am open to suggestions.
> 
> I like it!  :)

Thanks!  I hope you like the program when it is done.

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#3360

I've made quite a bit of progress on it so far.  I will probably put the work in progress up on github pretty soon so people can start looking at it.  It is starting to look a lot like CiderPress, but it doesn't actually do anything.  I'm writing most of the GUI first and then I will hook up the functionality from the libraries. So far I have the main window mostly done with the menubar and toolbar and I am working on the dialogs that come up from some of the menus and toolbar buttons.

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#3370

On Thursday, 9 March 2017 05:07:59 UTC+10, Leeland Heins  wrote:
> Actually more of a re-write with a new GTK+ UI based on the current Windows version with the same basic functionality and look & feel.

Certainly sounds useful. It seems to me though that unless developing UI code has become far less cumbersome that it was last time I did it, and in light of the fact that Ciderpress like functionality is extremely lightweight relative to modern machines, that perhaps developing it in say, Python, would be far simpler, and probably a good deal easier to port between windows/mac/linux in the future.

Combined with Glade, you can do much of the development interactively and thus far more efficiently time wise. Much like using Applesoft on the Apple II for UI, and only resorting to assembly for the performance sensitive parts.

Matt

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#3371

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 12:10:11 AM UTC-5, mdj wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 March 2017 05:07:59 UTC+10, Leeland Heins  wrote:
> > Actually more of a re-write with a new GTK+ UI based on the current Windows version with the same basic functionality and look & feel.
> 
> Certainly sounds useful. It seems to me though that unless developing UI code has become far less cumbersome that it was last time I did it, and in light of the fact that Ciderpress like functionality is extremely lightweight relative to modern machines, that perhaps developing it in say, Python, would be far simpler, and probably a good deal easier to port between windows/mac/linux in the future.
> 
> Combined with Glade, you can do much of the development interactively and thus far more efficiently time wise. Much like using Applesoft on the Apple II for UI, and only resorting to assembly for the performance sensitive parts.
> 
> Matt

Well, I could have written it in Python, I work with that on a regular basis.  I've also written a few little PyGtk apps and a fairly large PerlGtk app.  However the reason I chose to go with C/C++ for this is that the original CiderPress is in C++ and I plan to cut-n-paste most of the functionality code into my app.  I know, I could have done that by wrapping the CiderPress code and/or underlying libraries with Swig or XS (done that in the past too), however that is extra work in itself.  FWIW, if you look at the C and Python APIs for Gtk, it isn't really hugely different.  I also know I could have used Glade for a lot of the simple layout, but I would rather work with code I wrote for a large project than code generator output.  And anyway, I've already gone down the rabbit hole quite a way in C.  FWIW, I really don't care much about portability back to Windows.  People still using Windows have already got CiderPress and I don't want to support or work with legacy technology like Microsoft.  Which is sort of ironic since this whole thing is to support the Apple II.  I've got a bit more sympathy for MacOSX users.  I know PerlGtk requires almost zero work to port to MacOSX, so I would assume PyGtk does also.  I am not sure about C, but I would assume that if you've got the compilers installed it shouldn't be that much more than recompiling for my front end code.  The part that I would expect that the underlying libraries which would need to be ported anyway would be the bigger challenge.

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#3634

(Apologizes, getting the hang of quote folding/hding and angry fruit
salad color schemes, I may have misattributed a few quotes today.)

On 2017-03-15, Leeland Heins <leelandheins@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Combined with Glade, you can do much of the development interactively
>> and thus far more efficiently time wise. Much like using Applesoft on
>> the Apple II for UI, and only resorting to assembly for the
>> performance sensitive parts.
>
> Well, I could have written it in Python, I work with that on a regular
> basis.  I've also written a few little PyGtk apps and a fairly large
> PerlGtk app.  However the reason I chose to go with C/C++ for this is
> that the original CiderPress is in C++ and I plan to cut-n-paste most
> of the functionality code into my app.

The nature of C++ is going to make that a little harder than you expect.
Tends to be that code that was the only way to do it two generations ago
went from deprecated to forbidden on modern compilers.  Particularly
true with Visual Studio until recently.  ;)

A surprising amount of the code is not Windows-specific otherwise in the
disk image library and whatnot.  That changes in the UI code of course,
but if you were to use Qt or wx it'd be pretty easy.  Of course for the
notion of using Python (which is what I'm doing), wxPython 4 is still
alpha code, if pretty usable alpha code.  I have no desire to develop
new software in Python 2.7 in 2017 though so it's wx or write UIs for
each system (not opposed), go for Qt, accept the non-nativeness of GTK+
on non-UNIX platforms, or just use the wxPython Phoenix alpha.


> I know, I could have done that by wrapping the CiderPress code and/or
> underlying libraries with Swig or XS (done that in the past too),
> however that is extra work in itself.  FWIW, if you look at the C and
> Python APIs for Gtk, it isn't really hugely different.  I also know I
> could have used Glade for a lot of the simple layout, but I would
> rather work with code I wrote for a large project than code generator
> output.  And anyway, I've already gone down the rabbit hole quite a
> way in C.

No objections to GTK+ aside from not knowing GTK+ 3.x.  Glade is Glade
though, so if that's what you're using it shouldn't be too hard.

Qt is an ecosystem to itself, far more than GTK+ is.  I note the
necessity for pre-compiler tools for Qt.

I'll just say I'm _really_ glad wxPy4 is happening finally.  Otherwise I
expected I'd be writing Glade/Python for Linux, then porting to PyObjC
on the Mac, and probably back to one of the Win32 libs for Windows.


> FWIW, I really don't care much about portability back to Windows.
> People still using Windows have already got CiderPress and I don't
> want to support or work with legacy technology like Microsoft.  Which
> is sort of ironic since this whole thing is to support the Apple II.

I'm more concerned with the fact that CiderPress images don't always
work with AppleCommander, and AppleCommander's images are sometimes
incompatible with cppo, and that all of these tools have unspecified
(but known to some) bugs that remain unfixed.

One cross-platform tool that seriously works well enough to replace the
others by virtue of being better and working everywhere ... works toward
resolving those issues.


> I've got a bit more sympathy for MacOSX users.  I know PerlGtk
> requires almost zero work to port to MacOSX, so I would assume PyGtk
> does also.  I am not sure about C, but I would assume that if you've
> got the compilers installed it shouldn't be that much more than
> recompiling for my front end code.  The part that I would expect that
> the underlying libraries which would need to be ported anyway would be
> the bigger challenge.

The Mac GTK+ 3.x requires very little porting.  The X11 way of doing
these things is no longer necessary for a basic GTK+ program, nor is it
particularly wanted.  X sucks on a mac.  Of course X sucks everywhere
because it's X, but Xquartz still feels like XFree86.

If your code is basically POSIX compliant, it'll build on both.  Use a
portable build system and it's even easy.  Windows requires some macros
because their POSIX-like functions ... aren't.  But that's not even hard
either.

Joseph

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#3391

On Thursday, 9 March 2017 03:07:59 UTC+8, Leeland Heins  wrote:
> Actually more of a re-write with a new GTK+ UI based on the current Windows version with the same basic functionality and look & feel.

I wish CiderPress port to macOS !

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#3395

On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 10:42:23 AM UTC-5, syss198...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 March 2017 03:07:59 UTC+8, Leeland Heins  wrote:
> > Actually more of a re-write with a new GTK+ UI based on the current Windows version with the same basic functionality and look & feel.
> 
> I wish CiderPress port to macOS !

The Gtk+ code I am writing should be a lot easier to port to MacOSX than the MFC based code in CiderPress.  In fact, the "homebrew" system for Mac already has a build rule set up that can build the code drop I did earlier.  However, I didn't do that port and I don't really have a way to test anything on a Mac myself so it is dependent on others to do that work if a Mac version of Calvados is to be a reality.  I think most of it should be pretty easy, the most likely changes would be that someone would need to change the code that reads the low level image devices so that it can find where those get mounted on a Mac.

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#3419

An update --

It has been nearly a month...  I've updated the GitHub repository with the latest code.

There is still no functionality...  however, I have added a significant amount more of the UI.  There is still a ton of work left on the UI, but it is starting to look like something.  I also need to break down and do the Makefile right because the ersatz one there now is growing tedious.

I will try to update again in a few weeks.

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#3421

On 2017-04-11 23:32:46 +0000, Leeland Heins said:

> I will try to update again in a few weeks.

Keep going!!

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#3428

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 7:36:23 PM UTC-5, ultramagnus_tcv wrote:
> On 2017-04-11 23:32:46 +0000, Leeland Heins said:
> 
> > I will try to update again in a few weeks.
> 
> Keep going!!

I just updated the GitHub repository with the latest code.  Significant progress over the last week.  Still no functionality but the top level stubs of the UI are now mostly all there and most of the dialog boxes are at least partially implemented.  By the next update the UI may be nearly complete enough that I may start to implement some of the more simple functionality.

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#3623

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:32:47 PM UTC-7, Leeland Heins wrote:
> An update --
> 
> It has been nearly a month...  I've updated the GitHub repository with the latest code.
> 
> There is still no functionality...  however, I have added a significant amount more of the UI.  There is still a ton of work left on the UI, but it is starting to look like something.  I also need to break down and do the Makefile right because the ersatz one there now is growing tedious.
> 
> I will try to update again in a few weeks.

I certainly appreciate this.  CiderPress has a much more ... more UI than AppleCommander does.  I've recently worked out the incantation for building that on Linux (which requires some patches because David never considered that a thing), but AppleCommander has some limitations regarding resource forks and the like.

A far more limited tool is Ivan Drucker's cppo, but it has the advantage of supporting resource fork extraction.  Still, having CiderPress available on Linux with all the bells and whistles would be really nice.

In the meantime, I've begun the process of rewriting cppo from ugly bash script quickly rewritten as ugly python script to something incrementally more pythonic and modular.  There's a long way to go on that, but it at least has its existing functionality intact while I work.

I ... haven't fully worked out how I'm going to make usenet work for me yet.  Google Groups is suboptimal and Linux terminal-based news readers are not especially fun things to use and get used to using.  I'm probably 16 years away from my long-lost slrn config.  :(

But I'll be keeping an eye on this thread in the meantime.

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#3627

in article dc2a0959-cf23-48d0-ac0c-e493c1e50712@googlegroups.com,
carter.tjoseph@gmail.com at carter.tjoseph@gmail.com wrote on 7/1/17 7:19
AM:

> 
> I ... haven't fully worked out how I'm going to make usenet work for me yet.
> Google Groups is suboptimal and Linux terminal-based news readers are no
> t especially fun things to use and get used to using.  I'm probably 16 years
> away from my long-lost slrn config.  :(
> 

Joseph,

It's good to 'see' you here.

I might suggest (if it hasn't already been offered) using Thunderbird
(Mozilla) as your newsreader.

After having used the newsreader built into 'Entourage' for years on the
Mac, I had to start using Windows 10 as my main OS, and Thunderbird does a
nice job for me with the newsgroups.

Luckily, having been with Earthlink for already 20 years, I get free access
to their newsgroups servers, but I understand that there are other 'free' or
low-cost newsgroup servers available.

I agree with your reserved understatement -- 'Google Groups is suboptimal'.





Hugh Hood

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#3630 — On NNTP clients and Google Groups (Was: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux?)

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 8:16:10 AM UTC-7, Hugh Hood wrote:
> > I ... haven't fully worked out how I'm going to make usenet work for me yet.
> > Google Groups is suboptimal and Linux terminal-based news readers are no
> > t especially fun things to use and get used to using.  I'm probably 16 years
> > away from my long-lost slrn config.  :(
> > 
> 
> Joseph,
> 
> It's good to 'see' you here.
> 
> I might suggest (if it hasn't already been offered) using Thunderbird
> (Mozilla) as your newsreader.
> 
> After having used the newsreader built into 'Entourage' for years on the
> Mac, I had to start using Windows 10 as my main OS, and Thunderbird does a
> nice job for me with the newsgroups.
> 
> Luckily, having been with Earthlink for already 20 years, I get free access
> to their newsgroups servers, but I understand that there are other 'free' or
> low-cost newsgroup servers available.
> 
> I agree with your reserved understatement -- 'Google Groups is suboptimal'.
> 
> Hugh Hood

Suboptimal in my case involves a lot of bright white backgrounds.  I can do it, but reading text on it, especially a lot of text, is difficult and frustrating and the fact is I don't do it much.

When I moved everything to NeoMutt and NeoVim, I kinda started rebuilding my configurations from scratch for email and I kind of never actually finished either.  Did enough NeoVim for my purposes, and eventually just found myself using Google for mail anyway.  They're evil, but I now get about 1000 spam per day.  Yeah.

I doubt mutt is an EXCELLENT news reader, but ... it can thread a conversation at least.  I may make Thunderbird work for me.  The issue there is that I have never been totally happy with dark GTK+ themes, particularly as they tend to break too many form elements in Firefox.  Maybe I can adjust that--unsure.  I tend to spend most of my time in the console.  And there the issue is that while I am aware many NNTP clients exist, most of them have rather high barrier to entry.  The ones that don't (alpine in NNTP mode) have very low functionality.

I just need to take time to do it and I haven't.  :/

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#3632 — Re: On NNTP clients and Google Groups (Was: Any interest in CiderPress "port" to Linux?)

On 2017-07-06, carter.tjoseph@gmail.com <carter.tjoseph@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's good to 'see' you here.
>> 
>> I might suggest (if it hasn't already been offered) using Thunderbird
>> (Mozilla) as your newsreader.
[..]
> I just need to take time to do it and I haven't.  :/

(Probably) sorted.

Joseph  :)

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#3447

> I wish CiderPress port to macOS !

Hi,

A prototype of a macOS port of CiderPress had been done years ago.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2.programmer/oeEH6LZFXig

The program can only read and write disk images supported by the original CiderPress. I don’t have the expertise or knowledge to add a much-desired feature which is low-level access of USB devices.

For example, formatting a 1.44 MB diskette using a USB floppy disk (or any storage device that can be attached to a USB port) which can then be accessed by an appropriate Apple OS like GS/OS, Apple Pascal etc.

A total re-write might be necessary because the source code needs pruning and optimization as well as improved user interaction.

Having said that, the prototype does what it supposed to do; allows a user to modify the contents of disk images.

Regards.

Mark

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#3449

On 2017-04-30 01:14:04 +0000, markpmlim@yahoo.com.sg said:

> 
>> I wish CiderPress port to macOS !
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A prototype of a macOS port of CiderPress had been done years ago.

I know that people often mention a WINE-bottled CiderPress which works. 
Indeed, I had been using it for a long, long time. It was prepared by a 
user group in Australia, if memory serves, when the last version came 
out.

But you know... that setup went pear-shaped on me recently. Despite 
what CiderPress was showing me in the GUI, it consistently created disk 
images that were corrupt in some way. Mostly I'd see it in either 
images that wouldn't boot or long BASIC programs that couldn't run and 
displayed corrupted characters when LISTed. Another symptom I'd see is 
that CiderPress would stop launching. I never could figure out why but 
that condition also prevented my Mac from restarting cleanly.

Eventually, I dumped that bottled version and reinstalled clean with my 
system install of WINE. That's been working fine.

I don't know why I shared this. Maybe I hope one day there can be 
various, native-running ports, but it's nice to be able to use it at 
all. It's a great program. There has been so much I've been able to do 
because it exists. I don't think I'd trade it for anything else.

m

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