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BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC

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  BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Michael <michaelremerton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-22 11:15 -0700
    Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2011-10-22 20:20 +0100
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Michael <michaelremerton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-22 12:54 -0700
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2011-10-23 18:44 +0100
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Michael <michaelremerton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 12:45 -0700
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Gavin Wraith <gavin@wra1th.plus.com> - 2011-10-24 10:07 +0100
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Graham Harston) - 2011-10-23 19:13 +0100
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Michael <michaelremerton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 12:50 -0700
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2011-10-23 22:00 +0100
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Martin <News03@avisoft.f9.co.uk> - 2011-10-24 18:23 +0100
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-10-24 13:34 +0100
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-25 07:34 +0200
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Nick Roberts <tigger@orpheusinternet.co.uk> - 2011-10-25 18:14 +0100
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-26 06:32 +0200
            Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-10-26 10:51 +0100
              Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-26 19:15 +0200
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC "Ste (news)" <steve@revi11.plus.com> - 2011-10-26 15:09 +0100
            Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC "John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> - 2011-10-26 16:36 +0200
              Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-26 19:18 +0200
            Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Nick Roberts <tigger@orpheusinternet.co.uk> - 2011-10-26 17:26 +0100
              Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC "Ste (news)" <steve@revi11.plus.com> - 2011-10-26 21:07 +0100
    Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Gerph <gerph@gerph.org> - 2011-10-25 03:28 -0700
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-10-27 11:52 +1300
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2011-10-27 12:00 +0100
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-10-28 01:38 +1300
            Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2011-10-27 14:02 +0100
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 18:24 +0200
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 07:42 +0200
      Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-11-03 13:57 +0000
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Tony van der Hoff <news1106@vanderhoff.org> - 2011-11-03 15:28 +0100
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-11-03 16:00 +0000
        Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Gerph <gerph@gerph.org> - 2011-11-04 16:22 -0700
          Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-11-05 14:51 +0000
            Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-11-06 13:25 +0000
              Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-06 19:35 +0100
                Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> - 2011-11-06 18:53 +0000
              Re: BBC BASIC, EVAL and PROC Gavin Wraith <gavin@wra1th.plus.com> - 2011-11-07 14:09 +0000

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#937

In article <d6f54d2852.tigger@bc63.orpheusinternet.co.uk>,
   Nick Roberts <tigger@orpheusinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <52284175a1steve@revi11.plus.com>
>        "Ste (news)" <steve@revi11.plus.com> wrote:

> > In article <2c8fce2752.tigger@bc63.orpheusinternet.co.uk>,
> >    Nick Roberts <tigger@orpheusinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I strongly disagree.
> > 
> > Why can't you just use functions, which as has already been pointed
> > out, will work exactly as you want? The difference between using a
> > PROC or a FN in this case is purely asthetic.
>
> Because (in the context in which my post was written) we weren't
> discussing BASIC?

Ah, sorry - incorrect attribution on my part; I was really addressing
Michael with that question.

Ta,

Steve

-- 
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.

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#925

On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael <michaelremer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> RISC OS 5.17
> BBC BASIC version 1.44
>
> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.

http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/

--
Gerph.

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#938

In message <97aeadc3-ffb7-4043-8487-09bf6c6a0a47@u2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
          Gerph <gerph@gerph.org> wrote:

> On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael <michaelremer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > RISC OS 5.17
> > BBC BASIC version 1.44
> >
> > I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
> 
> http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/
> 
> --
> Gerph.

This could be useful for keeping an SSH connection alive,
perhaps with the use of Ifping.
I am using Confix as a frontend for putty tools, puttygen and plink
so far. 
Further options could let the BASIC I have that builds the command,
run timer/s for occasionally running Ifping.
I have only read of the timeout problem, but I think it is 
something taken care of by the full gui putty edition,

Thanks for the solution before me getting to the problem.
I had a great run with Audio Galaxy back then BTW.

Cheers, Ron M.

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#941

Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> This could be useful for keeping an SSH connection alive,
> perhaps with the use of Ifping.
> I am using Confix as a frontend for putty tools, puttygen and plink
> so far. 
> Further options could let the BASIC I have that builds the command,
> run timer/s for occasionally running Ifping.
> I have only read of the timeout problem, but I think it is 
> something taken care of by the full gui putty edition,

What's the timeout problem?

SSH via NAT can sometimes have sessions timed out if the NAT gateway wants
to free up resources - over mobile networks it's particularly bad as I often
can't maintain an idle connection for more than 10 seconds.  NAT will
terminate it if the TCP socket has been idle - pinging the host won't make
any difference.


PuTTY and OpenSSH provide a keepalive option... in Putty it's
Connection->Seconds between keepalives which translates into:
PingIntervalSecs=47
for 47 seconds in a session file

In OpenSSH there's various keepalive options - see the man page.

These can be inserted into configuration files to be used with the
RISC OS ports.

Theo

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#942

In message <Kfx*U5KQt@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
          Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> > This could be useful for keeping an SSH connection alive,
> > perhaps with the use of Ifping.
> > I am using Confix as a frontend for putty tools, puttygen and plink
> > so far. 
> > Further options could let the BASIC I have that builds the command,
> > run timer/s for occasionally running Ifping.
> > I have only read of the timeout problem, but I think it is 
> > something taken care of by the full gui putty edition,
> 
> What's the timeout problem?
> 
> SSH via NAT can sometimes have sessions timed out if the NAT gateway wants
> to free up resources - over mobile networks it's particularly bad as I often
> can't maintain an idle connection for more than 10 seconds.  NAT will
> terminate it if the TCP socket has been idle - pinging the host won't make
> any difference.
> 
> 
> PuTTY and OpenSSH provide a keepalive option... in Putty it's
> Connection->Seconds between keepalives which translates into:
> PingIntervalSecs=47
> for 47 seconds in a session file

I have only been working with RISCOS plink, and there doesn't
seem to be an option for it. Are you talking about a command
to send to the destination/server who would keep it alive.
I haven't used Putty on other platforms, and haven't seen the
format of a session file yet.
What are the details of the keepalive then?
If port forwarding I imagine it would be best sending something
to the end recipient.

> 
> In OpenSSH there's various keepalive options - see the man page.
> 
> These can be inserted into configuration files to be used with the
> RISC OS ports.
> 
I haven't been working with OpenSSH client/server but will have
a read sometime.
  
Ron M. 

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#943

Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> I have only been working with RISCOS plink, and there doesn't
> seem to be an option for it. Are you talking about a command
> to send to the destination/server who would keep it alive.

It's done by the SSH client.  In plink's case, you can load a saved session
file on the command line, and the session file has the option that I
mentioned to set a keepalive.  If you can play with the GUI on Mac or Unix
it makes the files in ~/.putty/session/ and you'll see what output it
produces and you can copy those to RISC OS (Windows uses registry keys which
you obviously can't copy)

There's various ways for the client to do it... either send occasional
packets at the TCP level (so that the link isn't completely idle: but the
NAT gateway knows about TCP and a clever router may ignore them) or at the
SSH protocol level where there are no-op SSH messages that can be sent.

You can also do a crude keepalive running a command on the server producing
regular output like 'top'... but them you can't use the terminal at the same
time.

OpenSSH server also has a server keepalive option, if you have control over
the server configuration.

Theo

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#944

On 27/10/2011 13:00, Theo Markettos wrote:

> over mobile networks it's particularly bad as I often can't maintain an
> idle connection for more than 10 seconds.

...my current host is a bit like this on wired ADSL when using plain 
FTP, but it works well with SFTP. My mobile (Orange France, on 
contract), on the other hand, sustains a telnet session (and SFTP) 
without problem. In fact, the only thing that is a problem is streaming 
radio disconnects after half an hour. This is a mixed blessing, for it 
can cut out in the middle of "The World Tonight", but on the other hand 
the BBC broadcast in full would run to 20MiB/day and I have a 
500MiB/month allocation, so... ;-)

Just a shame JPopSuki isn't available in a low bitrate version. Not only 
is it unreliable on EDGE, it burns through something like 55MiB/hour 
(eek!). Something to consider when I'm coding and have the video version 
of JPopSuki running in a window. 8-)


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#939

On 25/10/2011 12:28, Gerph wrote:

> http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/

I thought the stuff at http://usenet.gerph.org/IconBorders/ was pretty 
cool. Not so certain about the single-pixel black border (it seems a bit 
Win3ish to me), but I *love* the round (or bevel) border with the 
shading effect. That's pretty nifty, and it makes RISC OS's flat 
colourscheme icons look considerable less dated.

Would these modifications (eventually?) work with the ROOL version?


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#993

On 25/10/2011 11:28, Gerph wrote:
> On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael wrote:
>> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
> http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/

I was very interested in this discussion, because I have for a long time 
held in the back of my mind such a system for Basalt and I had always 
thought it would work with PollIdle in some way.

Prompted by this though, I recalled that the OS already has such a 
system, the SWIs OS_CallAfter and OS_CallEvery. They cannot be used from 
an application, so I have written a small module that allows a wimp task 
to set up the OS timers to send a wimp message when they come due.

This seems to be so straightforward that I am convinced someone must 
have done it before, but I cannot find an example. Does anyone know of one?

Of course, this cannot help the OP, whose program is single-tasking, I 
think.

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#994

On 03/11/11 14:57, Steve Drain wrote:
> On 25/10/2011 11:28, Gerph wrote:
>> On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael wrote:
>>> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
>> http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/
>
>
> This seems to be so straightforward that I am convinced someone must
> have done it before, but I cannot find an example. Does anyone know of one?

http://www.vanderhoff.org/software/risc_os/call_every.zip

Written in 1993 :-)

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#995

On 03/11/2011 14:28, Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> On 03/11/11 14:57, Steve Drain wrote:
>> On 25/10/2011 11:28, Gerph wrote:
>>> On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael wrote:
>>>> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
>>> http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/
>>
>>
>> This seems to be so straightforward that I am convinced someone must
>> have done it before, but I cannot find an example. Does anyone know of
>> one?
>
> http://www.vanderhoff.org/software/risc_os/call_every.zip
>
> Written in 1993 :-)

Not quite. I cannot be sure, it is not my language, but I think it is an 
example module written in C to demonstrate how to use OS_CallEvery in a 
module task; I can see the time being written to the screen. There is no 
documentation except the source comments, so please tell how I am 
mistaken. ;-)

My Call module provides SWIs Call_After, Call_Every and Call_Remove and 
ought to be useable by any polling wimp task.

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#998

On Nov 3, 1:57 pm, Steve Drain <st...@kappa.me.uk> wrote:
> On 25/10/2011 11:28, Gerph wrote:
>
> > On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael wrote:
> >> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
> >http://usenet.gerph.org/Timers/
>
> I was very interested in this discussion, because I have for a long time
> held in the back of my mind such a system for Basalt and I had always
> thought it would work with PollIdle in some way.
>
> Prompted by this though, I recalled that the OS already has such a
> system, the SWIs OS_CallAfter and OS_CallEvery. They cannot be used from
> an application, so I have written a small module that allows a wimp task
> to set up the OS timers to send a wimp message when they come due.
>
> This seems to be so straightforward that I am convinced someone must
> have done it before, but I cannot find an example. Does anyone know of one?

http://select.riscos.com/prm/toolbox/toolboxtimers.html

--
Gerph

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#1000

On 04/11/2011 23:22, Gerph wrote:
> On Nov 3, 1:57 pm, Steve Drain wrote:
>> On 25/10/2011 11:28, Gerph wrote:
>>> On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael wrote:
>>>> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
>> Prompted by this though, I recalled that the OS already has such a
>> system, the SWIs OS_CallAfter and OS_CallEvery. They cannot be used from
>> an application, so I have written a small module that allows a wimp task
>> to set up the OS timers to send a wimp message when they come due.
>>
>> This seems to be so straightforward that I am convinced someone must
>> have done it before, but I cannot find an example. Does anyone know of one?
>
> http://select.riscos.com/prm/toolbox/toolboxtimers.html

That is fascinating, and parallels the specification I came up with very 
closely, except that it is tied into the Toolbox.

However, SWI Toolbox_TimerOp is not in the version of the Toolbox 
modules I have, from 2004, and a search for modules to download only 
seems to come up with the 2003 version. I could see no indication of 
which version the changes documented in the link apply to, nor where to 
download them, nor whether they are public. The date of the document is 
2006.

Perhaps if I worked harder at it I could find out all that for myself, 
but it is frustrating and more effort than I am willing to put in just now.

I was going to embark on a moan about how unfriendly it is to program 
with extensions to the Toolbox, in BASIC and assembler, beyond the 
initial User Interface manual. I will confine myself to a plea to all 
who have the power to make programming with the Toolbox as easy as possible.

I only want the Moon on a stick. ;-)

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#1003

On 05/11/2011 14:51, Steve Drain wrote:
> On 04/11/2011 23:22, Gerph wrote:
>> On Nov 3, 1:57 pm, Steve Drain wrote:
>>> On 25/10/2011 11:28, Gerph wrote:
>>>> On Oct 22, 7:15 pm, Michael wrote:
>>>>> I am attempting to set-up a timer system.
>>> Prompted by this though, I recalled that the OS already has such a
>>> system, the SWIs OS_CallAfter and OS_CallEvery. They cannot be used from
>>> an application, so I have written a small module that allows a wimp task
>>> to set up the OS timers to send a wimp message when they come due.
>>>
>>> This seems to be so straightforward that I am convinced someone must
>>> have done it before, but I cannot find an example. Does anyone know
>>> of one?
>>
>> http://select.riscos.com/prm/toolbox/toolboxtimers.html
>
> That is fascinating, and parallels the specification I came up with very
> closely, except that it is tied into the Toolbox.
>
> However, SWI Toolbox_TimerOp is not in the version of the Toolbox
> modules I have, from 2004, and a search for modules to download only
> seems to come up with the 2003 version. I could see no indication of
> which version the changes documented in the link apply to, nor where to
> download them, nor whether they are public. The date of the document is
> 2006.
>
> Perhaps if I worked harder at it I could find out all that for myself,
> but it is frustrating and more effort than I am willing to put in just now.

OK. I have found it in Toolbox v1.94, on the RISC OS 6 installation 
disc. Unfortunately, I could not install RO6 on my RPC because of the 
IDE card, so I never investigated its features.

As I understand it, this version of the Toolbox is not public, so there 
is then little point in programming for it, even it has very desirable 
features.

Because Select has gone beyond use for me, I no longer subscribe, 
although I was an early adopter. I paid my money to support development 
of the OS, but I feel that it has been spent in a walled garden that is 
closed to too many users.

I think I am turning into Grumpy 2. ;-)

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#1004

On 06/11/2011 14:25, Steve Drain wrote:

> Because Select has gone beyond use for me, I no longer subscribe,
> although I was an early adopter. I paid my money to support development
> of the OS, but I feel that it has been spent in a walled garden that is
> closed to too many users.

Certainly I've seen a number of hints and tips posted here that are 
command line options, commands, or modules that are neither available in 
RISC OS 3.7 nor RISC OS 5. Already we're seeing fragmentation.


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#1005

In message <4eb6d391$0$30784$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>
          Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 06/11/2011 14:25, Steve Drain wrote:

>> Because Select has gone beyond use for me, I no longer subscribe,
>> although I was an early adopter. I paid my money to support development
>> of the OS, but I feel that it has been spent in a walled garden that is
>> closed to too many users.

> Certainly I've seen a number of hints and tips posted here that are
> command line options, commands, or modules that are neither available in
> RISC OS 3.7 nor RISC OS 5. Already we're seeing fragmentation.

From here it looks like one mainstream version (RO5) with a sideline 
(RO4/6) only able to run on hardware no longer manufactured, or on 
VRPC.

Alan

> Best wishes,

> Rick.


-- 
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan@adamshome.org.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/

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#1006

In message <mWvtq.40057$1Y4.2789@newsfe18.ams2>
          Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> wrote:

> Because Select has gone beyond use for me, I no longer subscribe, 
> although I was an early adopter. I paid my money to support development 
> of the OS, but I feel that it has been spent in a walled garden that is 
> closed to too many users.

Precisely my experience. I too paid my money initially, for the same
reasons, but as nothing came out from the scheme that was usable on 
my Iyonix, only vapour, I cut my losses. I am glad I did now, though 
I still find the schism in the community tragic. No wonder developers
left out of exasperation.

-- 
Gavin Wraith (gavin@wra1th.plus.com)
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/

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