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System variables cleanup

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  System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-11-27 16:11 +1300
    Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-27 05:13 +0100
      Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-11-27 18:29 +1300
    Re: System variables cleanup Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-27 21:55 +0000
      Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-11-28 12:27 +1300
        Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-29 06:33 +0100
          Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-11-30 00:29 +1300
            Re: System variables cleanup Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2011-11-29 13:14 +0000
              Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-11-30 11:50 +1300
                Re: System variables cleanup Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2011-11-29 23:22 +0000
                  Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-11-30 13:19 +1300
                    Re: System variables cleanup Nick Roberts <tigger@orpheusinternet.co.uk> - 2011-11-30 21:41 +0000
                Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-30 08:33 +0100
                Re: System variables cleanup Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-30 21:38 +0000
                  Re: System variables cleanup "David Holden" <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> - 2011-12-01 08:20 +0000
                Re: System variables cleanup Vince M Hudd <vinceh@softrock.co.uk> - 2011-12-01 16:00 +0000
                  Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-02 08:38 +0100
                    Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-12-03 12:05 +1300
                      Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-03 06:31 +0100
                        Re: System variables cleanup Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2011-12-03 10:02 +0000
                        Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-12-04 11:39 +1300
            Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-30 08:20 +0100
              Re: System variables cleanup Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2011-12-01 10:22 +1300
              Re: System variables cleanup Chris Johnson <chrisjohnson+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-11-30 23:59 +0000
                Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-01 07:21 +0100
          Re: System variables cleanup jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Graham Harston) - 2011-12-01 14:15 +0000
            Re: System variables cleanup Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-02 08:35 +0100
    Re: System variables cleanup druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-11-27 22:47 +0000
      Re: System variables cleanup druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-11-30 20:19 +0000

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#1161

In message <4ed9b446$0$2540$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>
          Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> Alias$@RunType_FFF(Macro) : If "<Wimp$State>"="commands" Then Type %*0 
> Else /<Edit$BootDir> %*0
> --8<--------
> 
> So this lot is done by the operating system itself, thus providing a 
> functional set of file actions without the need to go through the whole 
> boot process - like, as you say, when it gets mucked up and you need to 
> poke around manually.
> 

OK I have been using Memphis and Edit didn't start because there
was no scrap available after a shift(Esc on Iyonix) boot.
Clicking on !Edit manually then got it past 'no scrap'
> > So a text editor would have to test for runtype_fff being set to
> > !Edit rather than runtype_fff being unset.
> 
> Hehe... which would fail if Edit *WAS* your preferred editor.
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, I think 'If' in an Obey file is limited to one test
> > so the only way to do
> > If variable1=<value>  &&  variable2=<value>  do_something
> > is to do
> > If variable1=<value>  Obey secondaryfile
 
Actually I am quite wrong here. From the CLI

If variable1=<value> Then If variable2=<value> do_something

works fine, as it does in BASIC.  We had a discussion a while back
about the lack of && in BASIC on this group.

I actually reposted yesterday but it was bounced.

Ron M. 

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#1103

On 29/11/2011 12:29, Ron wrote:

> If an editor has not been loaded, Zap will set the RunType for FFF
> to ZAP just because a directory with !Zap in it has been opened.

...which is what is *supposed* to happen. The alternative option, is not 
to open a directory with Zap in it until you need it.
Or hold Shift while opening said directory (skips the !Boot activities); 
usefully quicker.


> That is the equivalent of presetting Zap as the default Editor
> in say a !Boot config setting, which is what you dont like.

Not at all. Let's say I have "!SprayCan" (I made that up) which claims 
control of Sprites. But usually I'm happy to use "!Paint". The simple 
solution is to *not* open the folder containing !SprayCan until I wish 
to use it.

A boot config setting, is always.


There is, of course, something else to consider.

   Default:  Sprite -> Paint
   Revised:  Sprite -> SprayCan

If you quit SprayCan, how does the system know what to 'restore' the old 
run action to? If you think you have an idea, does it still hold up if 
you consider loading a *third* program that claims sprites?


> There are other apps that change your range of filetype icons for
> you because you happened to open its parent directory.

Yeah... everybody does a better icon. At least Acorn wised up to the 
annoyance level of a program redefining the tool sprites. Grrrrr!


> A similar presumption takes place.

Well, let's face it, some of Acorn's icons were... lacklustre. And 
possibly little-changed since the early '90s. It's not really a surprise 
everybody and their uncle thought they could do better.

To "fix" this, find the offending program's directory and open its 
Sprites file. This is probably *actually* the one called Sprites22 (the 
suffix is to do with monitortype/display properties). Make a backup, 
then open the original in Paint. Look for a sprite called "file_XXX" 
(where 'xxx' is the filetype in question). Delete it. Save the sprite 
file (same name as it had - overwrite the old one). Problem solved.


> The result is hiding these apps deeper, and perhaps resorting to
> shortcuts or links, which shouldn't really be needed.

Given the time/annoyance of a load of !Boot files being actioned, I tend 
to group like:

   $.Apps.Graphics
   $.Apps.Graphics.LessCommon

where the LessCommon folder holds stuff I don't use frequently, so I can 
go there if/when I need something specific.


> As Matthew stated, you might not want to start an editor at all,

I think out-of-the-ROM RISC OS will start Edit. You can disable this by 
unsetting the run action, but I think you'd need to look back to RISC OS 
2 to find a version that didn't do it.


> I think if you start !Phoenix after !Netsurf, it takes over
> clicks on HTML. That is another case where you might want to
> have a preference one way or another.

True, but it could be argued that if you have a preference, Filer_Boot 
the one you want in your startup sequence, and then just don't look at 
or start anything else unless you have a reason.

You are, however, suggesting running two browsers at the same time and 
complaining if one tries to hijack the other.

Example:

10:
   On my PC...
   <loads Firefox>
   All okay.
   <loads Opera>
   "Opera is not your default browser, blah blah blah."
   Yes, okay, be my default browser.

   [a day later]

   <loads Firefox>
   "Firefox is not your default browser, whinge whinge."
   Yes, okay, be my default browser.

   GOTO 10

There *is* _*no*_ *will-please-everybody* solution to having multiple 
programs all of which operate with the same filetype. Sure, I have both 
Opera and Firefox on my system; however the system defined file run 
action is to load it into Firefox. I don't like Opera much, I only use 
it because Firefox's download seems to sometimes silently drop the end 
of big (100Mb+) files and report it as download complete *instead* of 
failed. Either way, two browsers, one is "the preferred one".


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#1115

In message <4ed5d940$0$5704$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>
          Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 29/11/2011 12:29, Ron wrote:
> 
> > If an editor has not been loaded, Zap will set the RunType for FFF
> > to ZAP just because a directory with !Zap in it has been opened.
> 
> ...which is what is *supposed* to happen. The alternative option, is not 
> to open a directory with Zap in it until you need it.
> Or hold Shift while opening said directory (skips the !Boot activities); 
> usefully quicker.
>
<snip>
 
That doesn't seem to be work on my Iyonix, I'll try the RiscPC later.

Obviously the application's sprite would not be seen and a default one
used.

The nesting of folders is our current solution then.

I think my idea of a button to unset the alias is the most flexible
as you might not always want a particular app to be in the
passive mode.
If you start altering the app's !Boot it is fixed then, and you 
could upset the author when you have some problem down the track.

Rik's new treeview will let you see where you have hidden all
your apps. (-:

Thanks for the input,

Ron M.

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#1119

In article <4ed5d940$0$5704$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>,
   Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Or hold Shift while opening said directory (skips the !Boot
> activities); usefully quicker.

Should that not be Control to not boot applications?

-- 
Chris Johnson

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#1121

On 01/12/2011 00:59, Chris Johnson wrote:

> Should that not be Control to not boot applications?

Ermmm...

<hides>


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#1126

heyrickmail wrote:
> There was a discussion on the BBC mailing list a while back where
> JGHarston and myself really don't see eye to eye - and this is the
> extension to use for tokenised BBC BASIC files. On my system, it is
> ".basic" which loads into a program of mine to detokenise and toss to
 
The basis of which was that the appropriate extension for Acorn
tokenised BASIC files is "" (ie, null string), as that is the
extension that has been used for Acorn tokenised BASIC files ever
since the first one was saved 30 years ago today, and
retrospectively changing to ".basic" would, eg, require millions of
CHAIN statements in existing software to be changed.
 
> Notepad. I can't use the suggested ".bas" for that will auto-start
 
..and ".bas" is the appropriate extension for a text file containing
untokenised Basic, of any type of Basic.
 
> And for what it is worth, I quite like the RISC OS method. It is
> flexible, it doesn't need "associations" to be set up between the filer
 
...and and others have said, if you don't like what application a
file has been associated with, just drag it to the other
application that you want to use it with. After all, the file
associations are to tell the operating system what to do with the
file in the absense of you the user saying otherwise.
 
I regularly have Edit and StrongEd on the taskbar at the same time
and drag things to whichever editor I want to edit that particular
file in at the particulr time.
 
On my PC I drag (or SendTo) JPEG, GIF, HTML, CSV, whatever files to
whatever I want to do with them at that particular point. The computer
can't read my mind and decide "oh, right now he actually wants to edit
this (whatever) file, not display it." 
 
-- 
J.G.Harston - jgh@mdfs.net - mdfs.net/jgh
Our chief weapons are 'who', 'ps -aux', 'kill -9', and a fanatical
devotion to 'reboot -q'.

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#1134

On 01/12/2011 15:15, Jonathan Graham Harston wrote:

> The basis of which was that the appropriate extension for Acorn
> tokenised BASIC files is "" (ie, null string),
[snip]
> retrospectively changing to ".basic" would, eg, require millions of
> CHAIN statements in existing software to be changed.

Millions?

There is that much BBC BASIC code running on Microsoft platforms?

:-)


> ...and ".bas" is the appropriate extension for a text file containing
> untokenised Basic, of any type of Basic.

In this respect, VB is correct. However such files tend to be:
   (no extension)
   .bas
   .ffb
Any mix of the above. The choice of ".basic" was because it was 
seemingly unclaimed, and could be definitive to tokenised BASIC files. 
The same goes for .ffb, too.



> The computer can't read my mind and decide

...given Word's (Word97, I hope it is better these days) propensity for 
automatically "reflowing" the document and cocking up page layout, I 
really really DON'T want it to attempt to read my mind and decide.

Here's an idea, guys: If my document won't fit in the available print 
margins, how's about we do something radical like, you know, WARN the 
user, and then just print it anyway. Or maybe scale it down a little. 
Absolutely never EVER screw up the entire file in a half-assed attempt 
to botch it into the available margins.
[and people why I delete Word files they send me without bothering to 
open them... that and the number of times I've seen so-called 
professional documents appear with heaps of red wibbly underlines...]


> "oh, right now he actually wants to edit this (whatever) file, not
> display it."

Most of my file associations go straight to an editor. JPEG -> editor, 
preview is a menu choice.


Hey - next we'll be wanting hotkey overrides, like double-click a file 
with P held to print it, V to view it, E to edit it...


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#1079

On 27/11/2011 03:11, Ron wrote:
> A recent post mentioned how Zap leaves System variables set and I
> think there are other apps doing this.
> It doesn't seem a correct thing to do, I think when you terminate
> a program it should remove it's system variables.

The RISC OS desktop fundamentally relies on system variables being set 
by applications via their !Boot or !Run files, and staying set after 
termination.

It is up to the application to use this sensibly, and if there are 
variables which are not appropriate to be set after the program 
terminates, e.g. the command alias set by zap, it should be explicitly 
unset by the last line of !Run.

Although note that this will not be executed if the program is killed 
from the task manager, or something closes all file handles.

---druck

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#1113

On 27/11/2011 22:47, druck wrote:
> It is up to the application to use this sensibly, and if there are
> variables which are not appropriate to be set after the program
> terminates, e.g. the command alias set by zap, it should be explicitly
> unset by the last line of !Run.

I should mention that the application should only unset it, if it is 
still set to whatever that app set it too.

For example; since !Zap was run something else the user has run may have 
changed the alias, so quitting zap while that thing is still running 
could cause it to stop working.

---druck

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