Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.security.pgp.tech > #31 > unrolled thread

NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans"

Back to article view | Back to comp.security.pgp.tech

Contents

  NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-09-16 10:21 -0500
    Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2013-09-17 10:01 +1000
    Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-09-17 03:43 +0100
      Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2013-09-17 17:10 +1000
        Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2013-09-17 19:46 +1000
          Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-09-17 14:36 -0500
    Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2013-09-17 02:46 +0000
      Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-09-17 04:07 +0100
        Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Juergen Nieveler <juergen.nieveler.nospam@arcor.de> - 2013-09-20 06:56 +0000
          Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-09-20 09:41 +0100
            Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Juergen Nieveler <juergen.nieveler.nospam@arcor.de> - 2013-09-20 09:53 +0000
              Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-09-20 14:10 +0100
    Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-09-17 14:26 -0500
      Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Harry <hepgugl56@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 16:36 -0500
        Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-11-06 23:23 +0000
          Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@OrSPaMcle.COM> - 2013-11-06 23:50 +0000
            Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-11-10 19:53 +0000
              Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Doc O'Leary <droleary@6usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2013-11-11 10:31 -0600
                Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2013-11-11 18:09 +0000
                  Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Doc O'Leary <droleary@6usenet2013.subsume.com> - 2013-11-12 11:26 -0600
        Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2013-11-07 00:58 +0000
          Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2013-11-06 20:49 -0500
            Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2013-11-07 04:50 +0000
          Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Harry <hepgugl56@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 19:54 -0500
          Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Dave Hazelwood <fednatic@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 21:22 +0800
    Re: NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans" Tim downing <timotheus.d@gmail.com> - 2013-11-18 09:11 -0800

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#31 — NSA cryptanalyst: "We, too, are Americans"

NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans

Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his 
from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.

"An NSA mathematician, seeking to help shape the ongoing debate about 
the agency's foreign surveillance activities, has contributed this 
column to ZDNet Government. The author, Roger Barkan, also appeared in 
last year's National Geographic Channel special about the National 
Security Agency.

"The rest of this article contains Roger's words only, edited simply for 
formatting.

"Many voices -- from those in the White House to others at my local 
coffee shop -- have weighed in on NSA's surveillance programs, which 
have recently been disclosed by the media.

"As someone deep in the trenches of NSA, where I work on a daily basis 
with data acquired from these programs, I, too, feel compelled to raise 
my voice. Do I, as an American, have any concerns about whether the NSA 
is illegally or surreptitiously [...]"

http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-cryptanalyst-we-too-are-americans-7000020689/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539

-Ramon

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#32

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 01:21:53 +1000, Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net>  
wrote:

>
> NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans
>
> Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his  
> from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.
>
> "An NSA mathematician, seeking to help shape the ongoing debate about  
> the agency's foreign surveillance activities, has contributed this  
> column to ZDNet Government. The author, Roger Barkan, also appeared in  
> last year's National Geographic Channel special about the National  
> Security Agency.
>
> "The rest of this article contains Roger's words only, edited simply for  
> formatting.
>
> "Many voices -- from those in the White House to others at my local  
> coffee shop -- have weighed in on NSA's surveillance programs, which  
> have recently been disclosed by the media.
>
> "As someone deep in the trenches of NSA, where I work on a daily basis  
> with data acquired from these programs, I, too, feel compelled to raise  
> my voice. Do I, as an American, have any concerns about whether the NSA  
> is illegally or surreptitiously [...]"
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-cryptanalyst-we-too-are-americans-7000020689/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539
>
> -Ramon

Considering the head of the NSA has lied multiple times to congress about  
the scope of NSA activities I wouldn't be prepared to take what is said by  
an insider as having any value.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#33

On 16/09/2013 16:21, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>
> NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans
>
> Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his
> from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.
>

The NSA is basically innocent of internal surveillance.  It was set up 
to spy on governments and that is what it does.  The absence of lists of 
names of people spies on demonstrates that.

What we are seeing however is people whose faulty conscience is going 
"Need Cover-up", "NEED COVER-UP", *"NOW"*.   The FBI needs to see why.

Andrew Swallow

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#36

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:43:56 +1000, Andrew Swallow  
<am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On 16/09/2013 16:21, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>>
>> NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans
>>
>> Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his
>> from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.
>>
>
> The NSA is basically innocent of internal surveillance.  It was set up  
> to spy on governments and that is what it does.  The absence of lists of  
> names of people spies on demonstrates that.
>

and I think I saw the tooth fairy...



> What we are seeing however is people whose faulty conscience is going  
> "Need Cover-up", "NEED COVER-UP", *"NOW"*.   The FBI needs to see why.
>
> Andrew Swallow

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#37

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:10:48 +1000, David Eather <eather@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:43:56 +1000, Andrew Swallow  
> <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16/09/2013 16:21, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>>>
>>> NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans
>>>
>>> Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his
>>> from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.
>>>
>>
>> The NSA is basically innocent of internal surveillance.  It was set up  
>> to spy on governments and that is what it does.  The absence of lists  
>> of names of people spies on demonstrates that.
>>
>
> and I think I saw the tooth fairy...
>
>
>
>> What we are seeing however is people whose faulty conscience is going  
>> "Need Cover-up", "NEED COVER-UP", *"NOW"*.   The FBI needs to see why.
>>
>> Andrew Swallow

It does deserve a better reply.

A democracy is government of the people, by the people and for the people.  
The congress is the most powerful manifestation of that ideal and a  
congregational inquiry is strongest and most earnest attempt of the people  
to get facts. In the face of this the head of the NSA, a government agency  
which like all government agencies is supposed to support the dreams and  
aspirations of the people, lied *repeatedly* to a congressional inquiry  
and in so doing showed utter contempt for the basis that the USA was  
founded on.

Further reports by the NSA's own internal auditor found that it repeatedly  
breach it judicial limits to the tune of three times a day. Clearly the  
NSA will not even respect the very generous judicial guidelines it is  
supposed to work within.

Despite the massive  cost in life the 9/11 attacks posed no lasting threat  
to the US. People rallied together as proud Americans with a shared  
experience. New Yorkers spoke to and helped each other even if they were  
strangers. The American identity was made stronger, not weaker.

The attack by the NSA is much different. It is pervasive, and it attacks  
the free speech that underpins democracy's in all its forms. In the Soviet  
Union the citizens responded to the oppressive surveillance state by  
withdrawing from public life and public contribution and instead they  
focused very narrowly on themselves and their own family. Truth was spoken  
only between husband and wife at night, and even then with the bed sheets  
pulled over their faces.  The West used to laugh at the Soviet Union  
because their spy agencies monitored every international call, every  
foreigner in the country and its own citizens who had contact with them.  
And now the NSA is even more pervasive than that and its efforts to  
coerce, subvert and influence are not a benign as people seem to think.  
How do you make someone do what they think is morally wrong? You bully  
them and threaten their loved ones, which is something made much easier by  
mass surveillance.  CRYPTO-GRAM, September 15, 2013 details at least 2  
draw dropping examples.

It has to stop.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#39

On 9/17/2013 4:46 AM, David Eather wrote:
> A democracy is government of the people, by the people and for the
> people.

Mr. Lincoln:

It is quite a relief that the wise founders balked at the idea of our 
country being a Democracy.

But I do have wonderful news for you! Since you a partial to Democracies 
I hear that my spot in Venezuela is available.

Just tell the Chavistas that Ramon sent you, with my compliments.

-Ramon

ps: You are advised to carefully read "The Most Important of the 
Federalist Papers".

     http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html

pps: In case you don't know, it is No. 10

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34

On 2013-09-16, Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> wrote:
>
> NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans

So was Charles Manson an American. Being an American does not
automatically mean that you are good, moral, etc. See Abu Ghraib.
One can easilly  conform to the attitudes of those around you
(especailly if it is a highly secret organization where you cannot
renormalise your stance with respect to other, more open, people)




>
> Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his 
> from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.
>
> "An NSA mathematician, seeking to help shape the ongoing debate about 
> the agency's foreign surveillance activities, has contributed this 
> column to ZDNet Government. The author, Roger Barkan, also appeared in 
> last year's National Geographic Channel special about the National 
> Security Agency.
>
> "The rest of this article contains Roger's words only, edited simply for 
> formatting.
>
> "Many voices -- from those in the White House to others at my local 
> coffee shop -- have weighed in on NSA's surveillance programs, which 
> have recently been disclosed by the media.
>
> "As someone deep in the trenches of NSA, where I work on a daily basis 
> with data acquired from these programs, I, too, feel compelled to raise 
> my voice. Do I, as an American, have any concerns about whether the NSA 
> is illegally or surreptitiously [...]"
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-cryptanalyst-we-too-are-americans-7000020689/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539
>

It is clear, from what Snowdon had acess to, " Analysts ARE free to
wander through all of NSA's collected data willy-nilly, snooping into
any communication they please."

And he then tries to make fun of the critics by implying that they are
concerned that NSA wants to read "recipies your mother mails you". The
concern is that they ARE interested in the political thoughts and plans
of Americans. Or the economic secrets of companies, etc. 

And the lies that the NSA has had to retract give one zero confidence in
the "strict oversight" the analyst claims. 
Sheesh.

> -Ramon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#35

On 17/09/2013 03:46, unruh wrote:
> On 2013-09-16, Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> wrote:
>>
>> NSA cryptanalyst: We, too, are Americans
>
> So was Charles Manson an American. Being an American does not
> automatically mean that you are good, moral, etc. See Abu Ghraib.
> One can easilly  conform to the attitudes of those around you
> (especailly if it is a highly secret organization where you cannot
> renormalise your stance with respect to other, more open, people)
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Summary: ZDNet Exclusive: An NSA mathematician shares his
>> from-the-trenches view of the agency's surveillance activities.
>>
>> "An NSA mathematician, seeking to help shape the ongoing debate about
>> the agency's foreign surveillance activities, has contributed this
>> column to ZDNet Government. The author, Roger Barkan, also appeared in
>> last year's National Geographic Channel special about the National
>> Security Agency.
>>
>> "The rest of this article contains Roger's words only, edited simply for
>> formatting.
>>
>> "Many voices -- from those in the White House to others at my local
>> coffee shop -- have weighed in on NSA's surveillance programs, which
>> have recently been disclosed by the media.
>>
>> "As someone deep in the trenches of NSA, where I work on a daily basis
>> with data acquired from these programs, I, too, feel compelled to raise
>> my voice. Do I, as an American, have any concerns about whether the NSA
>> is illegally or surreptitiously [...]"
>>
>> http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-cryptanalyst-we-too-are-americans-7000020689/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539
>>
>
> It is clear, from what Snowdon had acess to, " Analysts ARE free to
> wander through all of NSA's collected data willy-nilly, snooping into
> any communication they please."
>

Look again.  Snowden did not have access to personnel data.  He is only 
leaking the management documents.

> And he then tries to make fun of the critics by implying that they are
> concerned that NSA wants to read "recipies your mother mails you". The
> concern is that they ARE interested in the political thoughts and plans
> of Americans. Or the economic secrets of companies, etc.
>
> And the lies that the NSA has had to retract give one zero confidence in
> the "strict oversight" the analyst claims.
> Sheesh.
>
>> -Ramon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#40

Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Look again.  Snowden did not have access to personnel data.  He is
> only leaking the management documents.

Snowden has respect for peoples' privacy. Doesn't mean he didn't have 
access to the data, though. And the fact that it's there is plain 
obvious, considering stuff like LOVEINT.

-- 
Juergen Nieveler

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#41

On 20/09/2013 07:56, Juergen Nieveler wrote:
> Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Look again.  Snowden did not have access to personnel data.  He is
>> only leaking the management documents.
>
> Snowden has respect for peoples' privacy. Doesn't mean he didn't have
> access to the data, though. And the fact that it's there is plain
> obvious, considering stuff like LOVEINT.
>

LOVEINT was a sacking offence.  Snowden knew because he was warned what 
would happen to him if he tried doing it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#42

Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:

>>> Look again.  Snowden did not have access to personnel data.  He is
>>> only leaking the management documents.
>>
>> Snowden has respect for peoples' privacy. Doesn't mean he didn't have
>> access to the data, though. And the fact that it's there is plain
>> obvious, considering stuff like LOVEINT.
>>
> 
> LOVEINT was a sacking offence.  Snowden knew because he was warned what 
> would happen to him if he tried doing it.

It was a sacking offence for those who got caught. Are there any 
reports on how many, and how fast they were caught?

As Sysadmin, Snowden had more access and knowledge than those sacked 
for LOVEINT, so it's safe to assume that he could bypass a lot of 
safeguards (which is one of the things the NSA is keen on fixing now)

-- 
Juergen Nieveler

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#43

On 20/09/2013 10:53, Juergen Nieveler wrote:
> Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Look again.  Snowden did not have access to personnel data.  He is
>>>> only leaking the management documents.
>>>
>>> Snowden has respect for peoples' privacy. Doesn't mean he didn't have
>>> access to the data, though. And the fact that it's there is plain
>>> obvious, considering stuff like LOVEINT.
>>>
>>
>> LOVEINT was a sacking offence.  Snowden knew because he was warned what
>> would happen to him if he tried doing it.
>
> It was a sacking offence for those who got caught. Are there any
> reports on how many, and how fast they were caught?
>
> As Sysadmin, Snowden had more access and knowledge than those sacked
> for LOVEINT, so it's safe to assume that he could bypass a lot of
> safeguards (which is one of the things the NSA is keen on fixing now)
>

Snowden could bypass computer checks but not human inspections.  The 
moment anything got printed out he risked being caught.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38

On 9/16/2013 5:56 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> So were Joseph McCarthy, Richard Nixon, and Robert Hanssen.  Being an
> American does not mean that someone is beyond reproach.

You are forgetting the BEST possible example!! This bastard son of a bitch:

     http://patriot.net/~ramon/misc/Edgarina.jpg

In fact, the so-called McCarthism was a misnomer, since Hoover was the 
one pulling the strings.

Funny how now we have a MaCarthy reincarnate/wannabe, who (thank God!) 
does not have the hand of the FBI up his ass.

    http://goo.gl/Ey5pAu

Here's the scoop on Hoover:

    http://goo.gl/UmtsZZ

-Ramon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#44

On 2013-09-17 15:26, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
> On 9/16/2013 5:56 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>> So were Joseph McCarthy, Richard Nixon, and Robert Hanssen.  Being an
>> American does not mean that someone is beyond reproach.
>
> You are forgetting the BEST possible example!! This bastard son of a bitch:
>
>      http://patriot.net/~ramon/misc/Edgarina.jpg
>
> In fact, the so-called McCarthism was a misnomer, since Hoover was the
> one pulling the strings.
>
> Funny how now we have a MaCarthy reincarnate/wannabe, who (thank God!)
> does not have the hand of the FBI up his ass.
>
>     http://goo.gl/Ey5pAu
>
> Here's the scoop on Hoover:
>
>     http://goo.gl/UmtsZZ
>
> -Ramon
>
>
>
I was somewhat amused by reports that Canada's spy agency was also up to 
its neck in this stuff but of course "was not spying on Canadians". Who 
do they think these governments are fooling. They pass laws or 
directives to prevent spying on the locals but then just get a 
neighboring country to do it for them and share the data.

Nobody is safe from this activity. Technology just makes spying like 
this too easy and I don't see any way to force governments to stop doing 
it. I mean really, do you trust that any security product that you 
purchase does NOT have back doors for government use?

-- 

Harry

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#45

On 06/11/2013 21:36, Harry wrote:
> On 2013-09-17 15:26, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>> On 9/16/2013 5:56 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>>> So were Joseph McCarthy, Richard Nixon, and Robert Hanssen.  Being an
>>> American does not mean that someone is beyond reproach.
>>
>> You are forgetting the BEST possible example!! This bastard son of a
>> bitch:
>>
>>      http://patriot.net/~ramon/misc/Edgarina.jpg
>>
>> In fact, the so-called McCarthism was a misnomer, since Hoover was the
>> one pulling the strings.
>>
>> Funny how now we have a MaCarthy reincarnate/wannabe, who (thank God!)
>> does not have the hand of the FBI up his ass.
>>
>>     http://goo.gl/Ey5pAu
>>
>> Here's the scoop on Hoover:
>>
>>     http://goo.gl/UmtsZZ
>>
>> -Ramon
>>
>>
>>
> I was somewhat amused by reports that Canada's spy agency was also up to
> its neck in this stuff but of course "was not spying on Canadians". Who
> do they think these governments are fooling. They pass laws or
> directives to prevent spying on the locals but then just get a
> neighboring country to do it for them and share the data.
>
> Nobody is safe from this activity. Technology just makes spying like
> this too easy and I don't see any way to force governments to stop doing
> it. I mean really, do you trust that any security product that you
> purchase does NOT have back doors for government use?
>

They mostly spy on Russians and Chinese.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#46

Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> writes:

>They mostly spy on Russians and Chinese.

Yeah, right.

Casper

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#51

On 06/11/2013 23:50, Casper H.S. Dik wrote:
> Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> writes:
>
>> They mostly spy on Russians and Chinese.
>
> Yeah, right.
>
> Casper
>

Until you understand that you do not have a clue about what is going on.

If the NSA was spying on people the Guardian would be naming names.

Andrew Swallow

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#52

In article <2fCdnZ9Zo-TbeeLPnZ2dnUVZ8kCdnZ2d@bt.com>,
 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:

> If the NSA was spying on people the Guardian would be naming names.

If you fish with a pole, you can name your catch.  If you fish with a 
net, you might be hard pressed to even count your catch.

-- 
iPhone apps that matter:    http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, theremailer.net,
    and probably your server, too.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#53

On 11/11/2013 16:31, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> In article <2fCdnZ9Zo-TbeeLPnZ2dnUVZ8kCdnZ2d@bt.com>,
>   Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> If the NSA was spying on people the Guardian would be naming names.
>
> If you fish with a pole, you can name your catch.  If you fish with a
> net, you might be hard pressed to even count your catch.
>

Then nothing to see.  You spy for a purpose.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#54

In article <msGdnTvq5KPbgBzPnZ2dnUVZ8oudnZ2d@bt.com>,
 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On 11/11/2013 16:31, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > In article <2fCdnZ9Zo-TbeeLPnZ2dnUVZ8kCdnZ2d@bt.com>,
> >   Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If the NSA was spying on people the Guardian would be naming names.
> >
> > If you fish with a pole, you can name your catch.  If you fish with a
> > net, you might be hard pressed to even count your catch.
> >
> 
> Then nothing to see.  You spy for a purpose.

As currently implemented, the (unintended) purpose is extinction.  The 
net fishermen are coming to realize the inherent dangers of that.  I 
wonder when the net surveillers will show the same intelligence.

-- 
iPhone apps that matter:    http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, theremailer.net,
    and probably your server, too.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.security.pgp.tech

csiph-web