Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.programming > #280 > unrolled thread

A question about a programming class

Back to article view | Back to comp.programming

Contents

  A question about a programming class Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 18:57 -0700
    Re: A question about a programming class Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:01 -0700
      Re: A question about a programming class rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-05-08 18:49 +0100
        Re: A question about a programming class Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 13:25 -0700
          Re: A question about a programming class Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2011-05-08 23:04 +0200
          Re: A question about a programming class Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-09 10:28 +1200
            Re: A question about a programming class Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:56 -0700
            Re: A question about a programming class rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-05-09 13:09 +0100
          Re: A question about a programming class Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 08:01 -0400
        Re: A question about a programming class Pavel Lepin <p.lepin@dyninno.com> - 2011-05-09 12:17 +0300
          Re: A question about a programming class Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-05-10 12:50 +0100
            Re: A question about a programming class pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-10 09:32 -0400
              Re: A question about a programming class Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 10:14 -0700
            Re: A question about a programming class Pavel Lepin <p.lepin@dyninno.com> - 2011-05-10 18:05 +0300
      Re: A question about a programming class Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-09 16:34 -0700
    Re: A question about a programming class Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 08:00 -0400
      Re: A question about a programming class Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 10:21 -0700

#280 — A question about a programming class

I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
functions.

I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
concentration during the exam?

Chad

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#281

On May 7, 6:57 pm, Chad <cdal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
> functions.
>
> I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
> time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
> more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
> there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
> to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
> concentration during the exam?
>

For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
every missing semi-colon. He docked me 4 points for not completely
following the directions on one of the programming problems, even
though the program produced the correct results.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#282

On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad <cdalten@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On May 7, 6:57 pm, Chad <cdal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
>> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
>> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
>> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
>> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
>> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
>> functions.
>>
>> I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
>> time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
>> more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
>> there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
>> to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
>> concentration during the exam?
>>
>
>For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
>every missing semi-colon.
Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
want it to.

>He docked me 4 points for not completely
>following the directions on one of the programming problems, even
>though the program produced the correct results.
I would have docked more.  When an employer is paying you money to
write programs, you have *got* to follow instructions.  If you think
the instructions are wrong then you can discuss with your line
manager, but the bottom line is that they are paying your wages to
write what they want.

Follow the directions.  They're there to be followed.

rossum

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#283

On May 8, 10:49 am, rossum <rossu...@coldmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad <cdal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On May 7, 6:57 pm, Chad <cdal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
> >> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
> >> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
> >> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
> >> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
> >> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
> >> functions.
>
> >> I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
> >> time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
> >> more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
> >> there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
> >> to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
> >> concentration during the exam?
>
> >For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
> >every missing semi-colon.
>
> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
> want it to.
>
Is there some kind of trick to this when your given like a 60 minute
time limit to complete the exam?

> >He docked me 4 points for not completely
> >following the directions on one of the programming problems, even
> >though the program produced the correct results.
>
> I would have docked more.  When an employer is paying you money to
> write programs, you have *got* to follow instructions.  If you think
> the instructions are wrong then you can discuss with your line
> manager, but the bottom line is that they are paying your wages to
> write what they want.

The guy that sits next to that is retaking this class told me the
other professor docks a lot more points for missing semicolons and
braces.

Chad

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#284

On Sun, 08 May 2011 13:25:41 -0700, Chad wrote:

>> >For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
>> >every missing semi-colon.
>>
>> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
>> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
>> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
>> want it to.
> 
> Is there some kind of trick to this when your given like a 60 minute
> time limit to complete the exam?

Practice. Write as much as possible. I just started (re)learning C myself 
(after about 15 years of inactivity), and I even type example programs by 
hand, instead of copy&paste, just to get used to such little but 
important details.





-- 
Regards, Robert                                      http://www.arumes.com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#286

On 05/ 9/11 08:25 AM, Chad wrote:
> On May 8, 10:49 am, rossum<rossu...@coldmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad<cdal...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On May 7, 6:57 pm, Chad<cdal...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
>>>> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
>>>> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
>>>> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
>>>> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
>>>> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
>>>> functions.
>>
>>>> I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
>>>> time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
>>>> more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
>>>> there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
>>>> to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
>>>> concentration during the exam?
>>
>>> For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
>>> every missing semi-colon.
>>
>> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
>> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
>> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
>> want it to.
>>
> Is there some kind of trick to this when your given like a 60 minute
> time limit to complete the exam?

Care and attention to detail.  Those of us old enough to remember 
sending away our programs on punched cards soon learned that lesson!

School pupils loose marks in English exams for missing punctuation, so 
why shouldn't programming students?

By the way, do you really have professor teaching at a community college?

-- 
Ian Collins

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#287

On May 8, 3:28 pm, Ian Collins <ian-n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/ 9/11 08:25 AM, Chad wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 10:49 am, rossum<rossu...@coldmail.com>  wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad<cdal...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On May 7, 6:57 pm, Chad<cdal...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
> >>>> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
> >>>> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
> >>>> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
> >>>> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
> >>>> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
> >>>> functions.
>
> >>>> I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
> >>>> time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
> >>>> more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
> >>>> there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
> >>>> to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
> >>>> concentration during the exam?
>
> >>> For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
> >>> every missing semi-colon.
>
> >> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
> >> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
> >> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
> >> want it to.
>
> > Is there some kind of trick to this when your given like a 60 minute
> > time limit to complete the exam?
>
> Care and attention to detail.  Those of us old enough to remember
> sending away our programs on punched cards soon learned that lesson!
>
> School pupils loose marks in English exams for missing punctuation, so
> why shouldn't programming students?
>
> By the way, do you really have professor teaching at a community college?

Yes. The guy holds a Ph.D in Computer Science.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#292

On Mon, 09 May 2011 10:28:42 +1200, Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Care and attention to detail.  Those of us old enough to remember 
>sending away our programs on punched cards soon learned that lesson!
Ah, happy(?) days.  I was even pretty good with a hand punch for when
the queue at the Punch Pool was too long.

rossum

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#291

Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> writes:

> On May 8, 10:49 am, rossum <rossu...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
>> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
>> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
>> want it to.
>>
> Is there some kind of trick to this when your given like a 60 minute
> time limit to complete the exam?

Yes - it's called "studying and doing your homework."

sherm--

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#288

rossum wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad <cdalten@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
>>every missing semi-colon.
>
> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
> want it to.
> 
>>He docked me 4 points for not completely
>>following the directions on one of the programming problems, even
>>though the program produced the correct results.
>
> I would have docked more.  When an employer is paying you money to
> write programs, you have *got* to follow instructions.  If you think
> the instructions are wrong then you can discuss with your line
> manager, but the bottom line is that they are paying your wages to
> write what they want.
> 
> Follow the directions.  They're there to be followed.

I just wanted to chime in on this. This is not just some college bull.

I've been participating in the hiring initiative of the company I'm
currently employed by for a few years now, and we're running a set of
problems as a primary means of candidate screening. If a given solution
does not compile/run under the highest strictness settings applicable
(-std=c++98 -pedantic -Wall -Wextra for C++, use warnings/use strict for
Perl 5, E_ALL | E_STRICT for PHP5 etc.), you are likely to get no points
for it at all, maybe 1/10 or 2/10 if the algorithm merits it. Failure to
follow the problem spec to the letter, including trivial things such as a
function name other than specified, normally means the solution will not
get more than half points, even if it's otherwise perfect. Candidates
scoring less than half points total are not even considered for the
positions offered, whatever their other merits.

This isn't just random nitpicking either. As others posters in this thread
mentioned, obsessive attention to detail is a critical part of any
successful programmer's professional approach. People who can't or won't
concentrate on the task at hand produce terrible results in a practical
setting.

And, no offense, but I would be just delighted if more teachers in the field
adopted the attitude your professor seems to exhibit - that would save me a
ton of time talking to people who think they're qualified, but aren't.

-- 
Pavel Lepin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#296

Pavel Lepin <p.lepin@dyninno.com> writes:

> rossum wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad <cdalten@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
>>>every missing semi-colon.
>>
>> Part of the skill of programming is a nit-picking attention to detail.
>> The Professor is right.  With misplaced semicolons your program will
>> either not compile or, much worse, will compile but not do what you
>> want it to.
>> 
>>>He docked me 4 points for not completely
>>>following the directions on one of the programming problems, even
>>>though the program produced the correct results.
>>
>> I would have docked more.  When an employer is paying you money to
>> write programs, you have *got* to follow instructions.  If you think
>> the instructions are wrong then you can discuss with your line
>> manager, but the bottom line is that they are paying your wages to
>> write what they want.
>> 
>> Follow the directions.  They're there to be followed.
>
> I just wanted to chime in on this. This is not just some college bull.
>
> I've been participating in the hiring initiative of the company I'm
> currently employed by for a few years now, and we're running a set of
> problems as a primary means of candidate screening. If a given solution
> does not compile/run under the highest strictness settings applicable
> (-std=c++98 -pedantic -Wall -Wextra for C++, use warnings/use strict for
> Perl 5, E_ALL | E_STRICT for PHP5 etc.), you are likely to get no points
> for it at all, maybe 1/10 or 2/10 if the algorithm merits it. Failure to
> follow the problem spec to the letter, including trivial things such as a
> function name other than specified, normally means the solution will not
> get more than half points, even if it's otherwise perfect. Candidates
> scoring less than half points total are not even considered for the
> positions offered, whatever their other merits.

Is this a paper exercise?  I suspect the OP is referring to writing code
on paper.

You can select for any attributes you like, but I would not want to
reject all people who omit a comma in a "paper" program.

I write code with a compiler/interpreter to hand and copious automatic
documentation.  I've had to use so any programming languages over the
years (some with huge libraries) that I've decided not use my memory for
retaining many of the details.  I used to use it for that because I
started writing code on paper -- when you submit coding sheets to be
punched you need to use a very different style -- so I would probably be
fine in your tests in selected languages.  My point is that I am not
sure I'd want to prioritise such detailed knowledge.  I agree that a
programmer needs to to be a stickler for details, but that's not the
same thing.  I check everything very carefully (because I am a stickler
for details) but I don't know -- right now -- what parameters the
standard C function mbsnrtowcs takes.  (OK I know now because I had to
look it up.)

<snip>
> And, no offense, but I would be just delighted if more teachers in the field
> adopted the attitude your professor seems to exhibit - that would save me a
> ton of time talking to people who think they're qualified, but aren't.

None taken (I used to be a professor[*]).  Would you assess an English
graduate by asking him/her:

Q1 (a) "Then hate me if thou wilt; ...".  Complete the line and make
       sure to get the punctuation right.
   (b) What number sonnet is this?

[*] In the US sense.

-- 
Ben.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#297

Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> 
> Pavel Lepin <p.lepin@dyninno.com> writes:
> 
> > rossum wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad <cdalten@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
> >>>every missing semi-colon.

> Is this a paper exercise? 
> I suspect the OP is referring to writing code on paper.
> 
> You can select for any attributes you like, but I would not want to
> reject all people who omit a comma in a "paper" program.

I too don't think that a mistake which can be characterised as 
"a typo that a compiler would pick up" is such a big deal.
If you google on the phrase "compile often",
it seems to be a commonly recommended practice.

But then again, one point on an exam for a missing semicolon, 
isn't a big deal either. 
You have to be able to separate the A's from the B's, somehow.

-- 
pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#299

On May 10, 6:32 am, pete <pfil...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
> > Pavel Lepin <p.le...@dyninno.com> writes:
>
> > > rossum wrote:
> > >> On Sat, 7 May 2011 19:01:53 -0700 (PDT), Chad <cdal...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
> > >>>every missing semi-colon.
> > Is this a paper exercise?
> > I suspect the OP is referring to writing code on paper.
>
> > You can select for any attributes you like, but I would not want to
> > reject all people who omit a comma in a "paper" program.
>
> I too don't think that a mistake which can be characterised as
> "a typo that a compiler would pick up" is such a big deal.
> If you google on the phrase "compile often",
> it seems to be a commonly recommended practice.
>
> But then again, one point on an exam for a missing semicolon,
> isn't a big deal either.
> You have to be able to separate the A's from the B's, somehow.
>

Or in our case, the A's from the A-'s. Yes, getting an A- at this
joint goes against my GPA. My professor says that he is being "nice".
This is because he said that some universities have much more
difficult grading scales.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#298

Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Pavel Lepin <p.lepin@dyninno.com> writes:
>> I've been participating in the hiring initiative of the company I'm
>> currently employed by for a few years now, and we're running a set of
>> problems as a primary means of candidate screening. If a given solution
>> does not compile/run under the highest strictness settings applicable
>> you are likely to get no points for it at all, maybe 1/10 or 2/10 if the
>> algorithm merits it. Failure to follow the problem spec to the letter,
>> including trivial things such as a function name other than specified,
>> normally means the solution will not get more than half points, even if
>> it's otherwise perfect.
> 
> Is this a paper exercise?  I suspect the OP is referring to writing code
> on paper.

No, and there's no time limit. Neither would I apply quite the same
standards to an exercise on paper. I still would take note of any error in
the category "compiler can take care of that for you" and lower the score
accordingly.

> You can select for any attributes you like, but I would not want to
> reject all people who omit a comma in a "paper" program.

I happen to agree in principle, but in my experience extreme attention to
detail is a very important indicator of professional abilities in our
industry.

> My point is that I am not sure I'd want to prioritise such detailed
> knowledge. 

We don't.

> I check everything very carefully (because I am a stickler
> for details) but I don't know -- right now -- what parameters the
> standard C function mbsnrtowcs takes.  (OK I know now because I had to
> look it up.)

I agree, and personally I think testing for that would be outright moronic.

> None taken (I used to be a professor[*]).  Would you assess an English
> graduate by asking him/her:
> 
> Q1 (a) "Then hate me if thou wilt; ...".  Complete the line and make
>        sure to get the punctuation right.
>    (b) What number sonnet is this?

English isn't my native language, and I'm not sure how idiosynratic is
Shakespeare's punctuation by modern standards, nor would I know how much of
a common knowledge such minute details of his corpus of works would be
among the general population. But yes, the approach implied seems
questionable to me. Then again, the skills making a good programmer aren't
something I would expect in a random professional from a different walk of
life.

Pardon my sparse quoting, my news server is complaning I quote too much.
Guess it's time to switch to something else.

-- 
Pavel Lepin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#295

On 5/7/2011 7:01 PM, Chad wrote:
> On May 7, 6:57 pm, Chad<cdal...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
>> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
>> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
>> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
>> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
>> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
>> functions.
>>
>> I tend to forget this kind of stuff because he doesn't give us much
>> time to complete his exam and the problems tend to be fairly long. I'm
>> more concerned about being able to actually answer the questions. Is
>> there some kind of trick to avoiding these kinds of errors? Do I have
>> to practice more? Or do I have to figure out someway to maintain my
>> concentration during the exam?
>>
>
> For example, the last exam was 65 points. He docked me 1 point for
> every missing semi-colon. He docked me 4 points for not completely
> following the directions on one of the programming problems, even
> though the program produced the correct results.

If losing one point per missing semi-colon makes a significant
difference on a 65 point exam, it probably goes beyond an occasional
typo to a lack of familiarity with the syntax.

As others have indicated, real world programming often requires
conformance to decisions that affect how something is implemented. In
addition, in a academic environment the problem may have been designed
to test the ability to apply some specific technique. A correctly
running program whose implementation does not follow all the
instructions may not not demonstrate the skill the problem is intended
to test.

Patricia

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#290

Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
> community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
> gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
> logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
> having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
> modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
> functions.

What? You mean you actually have to get the answers RIGHT to get credit
for them?!?!? Oh, the horror!

sherm--

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#293

On May 9, 5:00 am, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pend...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chad <cdal...@gmail.com> writes:
> > I'm taking an introductory java programming class at the local
> > community college. The question is about the exams. The professor
> > gives us a couple of programming problems on the exam. I can get the
> > logic. The thing that is biting me is that the professor docks me for
> > having a missing semicolon or forgetting to include some kind of
> > modifier. Ie, forgetting to have the word static in front of one of
> > functions.
>
> What? You mean you actually have to get the answers RIGHT to get credit
> for them?!?!? Oh, the horror!
>

I guess I was expecting this kind of stuff at a legitmate four year
university. Not at a community college.

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | comp.programming

csiph-web