Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.programming > #2331

Re: 64 bit code

Show all headers | View raw

Chris Uppal wrote:

> Rui Maciel wrote:
> 
>> And let's not forget about the ever elusive 80-bit extended precision
>> floating point format, also known as "why bother".
> 
> For one answer, people might like to read:
> 
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/Stnfrd50.pdf

It appears that this text omits some important details which weight 
significantly on this issue.  For example, in the text's part 2, where the 
author refers to discretized elliptic boundary-value problems, it is said:

«(...) For many reasons not necessarily spawned by roundoff, the solution u 
has to be computed by an iteration, and that always entails the computation 
of a residual

r := b – (A + Diag(q))·u

The final accuracy of the computed u is limited by the accuracy with which 
the residual r can be computed. The accuracy of u , which is typically a 
potential, has to be sufficient to support differencing to estimate the 
Gradient Grad U(x), a field strength, without too much loss of accuracy to 
cancellation.»


What must be taken under consideration in this regard is that the 
coefficients of A, q and b tend to assume the form of integral expressions, 
whose values are generally obtained by employing quadrature and cubature 
rules.  

The problem with this approach is that, in general, these 
quadrature/cubature rules were developed so that their result is only exact 
if they are used to integrate functions of a specific type.  For example, a 
popular choise, the set of Gauss-Legendre quadrature rules, were devised to 
return the exact value of an integral if and only if the integrand function 
is a polynomial up to a certain degree.  When these quadrature rules are 
employed to integrate functions other than the one they actually can 
integrate, which is what happens in practice, they only return approximate 
results.

In other words, in this example, Matrix A and vectors q and b generally are 
themselves the result of an approximate calculation, and their error isn't 
small. To put things in perspective, It's not uncommon for these errors to 
be in the 1%-0.1% range.  In some commercial number crunching applications 
that implement this class of methods, the error even goes up to 3%-4% in 
come applications.

Meanwhile, discussing whether floats or doubles should be used is equivalent 
to discussing the significance of an error in the range of 0.0001%-0.00001%.

Hence, why bother?

To add insult to injury, discretized elliptic boundary-value problems only 
provide approximate solutions, unless we are dealing with a very specific 
problem.  This means that if somehow it was possible to run all floating 
point operations without introducing any rounding error or any precision 
degradation, the end result would always be an approximate solution, not the 
exact one.

So, although it might be nice to have heaps of precision at our disposal and 
a profound knowledge on how to leverage the existing tools to minimize this 
type of errors, spending time on this type of optimization, considering the 
returns that can be had from that investment, represents a complete waste of 
time.


Rui Maciel

Back to comp.programming | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

64 bit code bob <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-10-10 08:22 -0700
  Re: 64 bit code Jongware <jongware@no-spam.plz> - 2012-10-10 17:35 +0200
    Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-10 17:37 +0100
      Re: 64 bit code Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-10 12:54 -0500
      Re: 64 bit code Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-10 21:37 +0200
        Re: 64 bit code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:46 -0500
      Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 20:43 +0100
        Re: 64 bit code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-10-12 08:40 +0100
          Re: 64 bit code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-12 12:36 -0500
          Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 20:57 +0100
            Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-12 21:30 +0100
              Re: 64 bit code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-12 16:33 -0500
                Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-13 00:44 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-10-12 20:07 -0700
              Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 11:11 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-13 13:11 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2012-10-13 12:34 +0000
                Re: 64 bit code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-13 09:50 -0500
                Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-13 17:25 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 17:53 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 17:05 +0100
          Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-13 10:37 +0200
            Re: 64 bit code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-10-27 12:18 +0100
              Re: 64 bit code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-10-27 12:54 +0100
              Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-27 15:13 +0200
                Re: 64 bit code Robert Miles <milesrf@Usenet-News.net> - 2012-10-28 04:12 -0500
                Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-28 13:10 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-29 04:38 +0000
                Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-29 09:30 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-30 22:09 +0000
                Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-31 09:47 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-31 09:55 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-31 14:32 +0000
            Re: 64 bit code Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-10-27 08:51 -0700
              Re: 64 bit code "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-27 17:23 +0100
              Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-27 20:43 +0200
                Re: 64 bit code "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-30 22:16 +0000
                Re: 64 bit code "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-10-31 09:53 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-31 14:33 +0000
                Re: 64 bit code Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201211.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-11-01 00:25 +0100
      Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:04 +0100
        Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-10 21:52 +0100
          Re: 64 bit code Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-11 10:50 +1300
            Re: 64 bit code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:54 -0500
              Re: 64 bit code "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-11 13:11 +0100
                Re: 64 bit code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-11 11:17 -0500
      Re: 64 bit code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-10-10 13:17 -0700
        Re: 64 bit code Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-11 19:36 +0200
          Re: 64 bit code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-10-12 08:13 -0700
    Re: 64 bit code Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 20:38 +0100
    Re: 64 bit code Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 15:22 -0700
  Re: 64 bit code Robert Miles <milesrf@Usenet-News.net> - 2012-10-12 02:13 -0500

csiph-web