Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.os.vms > #58112 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-06-08 18:18 -0500 |
| Last post | 2016-06-10 08:26 -0500 |
| Articles | 10 on this page of 150 — 23 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.vms
Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 18:18 -0500
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-08 19:39 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 20:28 -0500
Re: Where to locate software "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> - 2016-06-08 19:40 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 20:30 -0500
Re: Where to locate software "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> - 2016-06-08 22:24 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 22:57 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 17:02 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 20:31 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-08 21:53 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 22:19 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-09 02:47 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-09 13:39 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 08:42 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-09 14:58 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 10:27 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 11:33 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 11:43 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-09 09:19 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 13:13 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-09 18:58 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-09 18:59 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:01 -0400
Re: VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate software) Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 10:58 -0400
Re: VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate software) Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-10 16:50 +0000
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-09 13:28 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:06 -0400
Re: Where to locate software VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 2016-06-09 13:58 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 11:16 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-09 14:46 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 12:43 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-09 13:50 -0700
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:20 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 11:11 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-10 11:56 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-10 10:19 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-10 18:03 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 15:59 -0400
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-13 09:02 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-13 16:34 +0200
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-10 16:53 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> - 2016-06-11 00:27 -0700
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-11 01:37 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> - 2016-06-11 03:21 -0700
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:02 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:27 -0400
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-13 09:05 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-10 16:13 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 15:50 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-10 20:54 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 17:47 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 01:59 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-10 19:13 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 03:01 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-10 22:47 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 12:45 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-11 15:02 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 02:07 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:05 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 04:17 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 03:09 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-10 23:39 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-10 22:44 -0700
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-11 01:42 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-11 18:25 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-11 11:15 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-11 13:44 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-11 11:54 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-11 15:23 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-11 18:28 -0700
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:38 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 00:59 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 14:09 +0000
devops / source control - (Was: Where to locate software) "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-12 10:43 -0500
Re: devops / source control - (Was: Where to locate software) "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-12 11:08 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 12:53 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 17:31 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 15:23 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 20:28 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 17:49 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-13 13:02 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-13 09:40 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-13 14:33 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-13 16:20 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-13 15:12 +0000
Re: Where to locate software RobertsonEricW <robertsonericw@netzero.net> - 2016-06-13 08:55 -0700
Re: Where to locate software John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 09:07 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-16 15:16 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-16 20:25 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-16 23:24 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 06:21 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 06:08 +0200
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-18 21:52 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-19 19:17 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-13 15:03 -0700
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-13 09:08 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-13 21:05 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-14 03:49 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-13 21:28 -0700
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-14 09:52 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-14 12:11 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:27 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-14 20:14 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 12:20 +0200
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-21 09:30 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-21 09:34 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-07-02 08:23 +0200
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 16:22 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 16:20 -0700
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-21 09:28 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-14 18:55 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-15 12:17 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 14:30 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-15 07:39 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 15:23 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craig.a.berry@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 08:03 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 19:41 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-15 19:10 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-16 11:24 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-16 08:33 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-16 17:09 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-16 11:12 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-16 12:32 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-16 17:48 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-16 20:29 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-16 23:21 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 05:56 +0200
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-13 13:21 -0400
Re: Where to locate software John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-12 14:46 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 17:53 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 12:57 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 18:03 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 12:46 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:37 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> - 2016-06-10 13:28 -0500
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 11:30 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 12:48 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-09 18:55 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 16:00 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-09 14:18 -0700
Microsoft "innovation", was: Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-10 17:47 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:26 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Dale Dellutri <daQQQle@panQQQix.com> - 2016-06-09 15:17 +0000
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-09 19:29 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-10 06:23 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-09 23:45 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 21:51 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> - 2016-06-10 00:15 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-10 08:26 -0500
Page 8 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8]
| From | johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 14:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3e731516-7d4c-4d9a-abb5-87165362b167@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #58144 |
On Thursday, 9 June 2016 21:00:36 UTC+1, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > On 2016-06-09 18:55:33 +0000, Simon Clubley said: > > > Sorry Stephen, but I think you have gone a bit too far there. VMS _is_ > > a competently and well designed system and is damned good with it's > > traditional workloads. > > OpenVMS was very competently designed, and was and is very well suited > to the era that it originated in, and to the associated applications. > Doc was great, great networking, very consistent APIs, etc. > > In the ensuing years, OpenVMS has lost more than a little of that > distinction, and for various reasons. Compatibility was certainly a > major reason for the complexity, and there are various other factors. > Sure, there's still very nice stuff in OpenVMS underneath it all. > But that isn't what the apps I'm working with are really using, either. > Some are — the original code and the old apps — but the new apps and > the app updates are increasingly using things that are just a hassle to > work with. Some — like 64-bit addressing and network security — is > most kindly referred to as being problematic. (64-bit was an amazing > design, alas with the benefits of that work skewed far more toward > existing applications and not the future and new applications. But I > digress.) > > OpenVMS app packaging and app installation and app configuration and > the rest are not well documented — if it's even really documented — and > the current tools are inadequate, at best. That's before discussing > mass deployments and configuration automation and replication, too. > > VSI has massive piles of work ahead of them to address and to improve > the competitiveness of OpenVMS. If their revenues are established, > maintained and can trend up, they'll hopefully continue that work. > App packaging (and related doc) is one of the (many) areas that needs > work. > > ps: Windows has rolling upgrades now? Interesting. That knocks > another of the distinguishing features off the list. OpenVMS apps > could use some help here, though that's certainly part of what's should > be addressed here — around product installations and upgrades and such. > Migrating formats in RMS files can be... entertaining, and that's part > of why I've been pointing to integrated databases. This difficulty is > how OpenVMS clustering got to be as complex as it is — with all those > shared RMS files, manually referenced via logical names — after all. > > > -- > Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC Prompted by rolling upgrade subtopic, but more widely applicable: Microsoft may claim that Windows has various different innovative features. They are after all well known for bringing 20th century computing technology to the 21st century world. Some people believe MS's claims. Others have tested MS's claims and found them wanting. In recent years, many saw little option besides migrating to MS anyway. Nowadays, the MS ecosystem is not the industry force it was maybe a decade or so ago. But as already noted, VSIVMS isn't going to be credible as a routine replacement for the Windows Server world in general, in the same way as Windows was not actually a universal replacement for the VMS market in general, whatever the vendors may have said at the time. SAP on Windows NT on Alpha, for goodness sake? Inside today's Windows world, however, there might just be people that have felt the pain of forcefitting Windows into the wrong shape hole. These people might probably look next at a Linux. Some select few of the ex-Windows customers, e.g. those who aren't horribly dependent on platform-specific stuff which VSIVMS doesn't yet have, and/or those who remember when computer systems used to Just Work(tm), *might* be persuaded to look somewhere other than Windows and Linux, for the specific requirements of their server class systems. Perhaps. VSI can hopefully find enough of these folks, in addition to the installed base and friends, to keep a small company like VSI going. What kind of things need to be done to make that easier? What kind of things tend to make it harder to address those prospects? And also: what differences are there between selling to random end user organisations, and selling to outfits who are addressing specific markets where Windows and Linux had to be force fitted when the death of VMS was pronounced? As regards people migrating off VMS: surely where that was a relatively easy option they did it long ago? Soon those people may have an opportunity to evaluate whether they made the right decision. Have a lot of fun.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 17:47 +0000 |
| Subject | Microsoft "innovation", was: Re: Where to locate software |
| Message-ID | <njeufu$5aa$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58147 |
On 2016-06-09, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Prompted by rolling upgrade subtopic, but more widely applicable: > Microsoft may claim that Windows has various different innovative > features. They are after all well known for bringing 20th century > computing technology to the 21st century world. > In a way, with clustering, my signature has never been more accurate. :-) Microsoft are indeed finally bringing 1980s technology (but from a rival) into their own operating system here in the 21st century. Not the way I meant the signature but still... :-) However, this is one Microsoft "innovation" I think we could all do without: https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/06/10/1350245/visual-studio-2015-c-compiler-secretly-inserts-telemetry-code-into-binaries Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 22:26 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njd8gu$u9h$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58141 |
Simon Clubley wrote: > On 2016-06-09, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> wrote: >> On 2016-06-08 23:18:47 +0000, Paul Richards said: >> >>> I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. So, a >>> noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source >>> software and Freeware. >>> >>> For those applications which don't automatically install where should I >>> locate them such that I can run them from any directory? >> Welcome! >> >> I'm one of the resident curmudgeons, and deal with more than few >> packages and tools, and have worked with more than a few open source >> packages on OpenVMS. And I use a mix of operating systems beyond >> OpenVMS and Windows. >> >> This is an excellent question! That's something most folks arriving >> from competently-designed systems might wonder, too. >> > > Sorry Stephen, but I think you have gone a bit too far there. VMS _is_ > a competently and well designed system and is damned good with it's > traditional workloads. > > However, that design originated in another era and it's owners, instead > of investing the resources to keep it up to date with current trends, > have instead chosen to take the profits from the existing users only and > have allowed VMS to fall into irrelevance. > > This is no different from how Linux in the late 1990s was compared to the > Linux of today. Linux is still the same basic operating system underneath > but it's had major investment to make it still relevant to today's needs. > How dominant do you think Linux would be today if people were still > having to do things like run XF86Setup and friends and edit modelines as > well as all the other stuff you had to do manually in the old days ? > > BTW, it's only now that some vendors are starting to catch up with VMS > when it comes to clusters. Kerry posted a link the other day and I > noticed that one of the amazing new features of Microsoft's 2016 version > of clusters is that you can now do rolling OS upgrades of your cluster > without having to take the whole cluster down for an upgrade. I've > never heard of anyone being able to do that before. > > I also noticed that Microsoft relies on VMs to implement quite a bit of > it's clustering functionality instead of doing it down within the > operating system itself. For example, if I understand the referenced > material correctly, Microsoft's response to what on VMS would be a > mount verification appears to be to suspend the VM itself instead of > just stalling I/Os to the malfunctioning device. > > What I am trying to say Stephen is please don't assume an elegant > design from another era was not competently designed simply due to > it's inability to meet current standards because it's owners failed > to invest in that operating system. > > Simon. > I do believe that what he's saying is "it's owners failed to invest in that operating system".
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Dale Dellutri <daQQQle@panQQQix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 15:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njc19o$kka$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #58112 |
On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:18:47, Paul Richards <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. So, a
> noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source
> software and Freeware.
>
> For those applications which don't automatically install where should I
> locate them such that I can run them from any directory?
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul
Here's what I do for my "acquired software".
First I create a hierarchy on the system disk:
$ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS]
$ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.CKERMIT]
$ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.TOOLS]
$ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.LYNX]
$ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.VIM]
Then in system startup I define a system logical for the top:
$ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE -
/TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES=CONCEALED AS_ROOT SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.]
And logicals for the rest of the directories
$ @SYS_DEFINE_LOGICALS_STARTUP AS
which executes:
$!
$! DEFINE_LOGICALS.COM - Define logical names for a hierarchy on SYS$SYSDEVICE
$!
$! P1 = Top level directory name
$!
$ ON ERROR THEN EXIT
$ IF p1 .EQS. ""
$ THEN
$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "No top level directory name given"
$ EXIT
$ ENDIF
$ IF F$TRNLNM("''p1'_ROOT") .EQS. ""
$ THEN
$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''p1'_ROOT not defined"
$ EXIT
$ ENDIF
$GET_DIRNAME:
$ filespec = F$SEARCH("SYS$SYSDEVICE:[''p1']*.DIR")
$ dirname = F$PARSE(filespec,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
$ IF dirname .EQS. "" THEN EXIT
$ trnname = F$TRNLNM("''p1'_''dirname'")
$ IF trnname .NES. "" THEN GOTO GET_DIRNAME
$ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE 'p1'_'dirname' 'p1'_ROOT:['dirname']
$ GOTO GET_DIRNAME
$!
I've put all of the ckermit files in [as.ckermit], and
miscellaneous tools like zip in [as.tools].
Then for all the *.exe files in as_tools, I have this
in the system login procedure:
...
$!
$get_as_tools_exe:
$ f = f$search("AS_TOOLS:*.*EXE")
$ if f .eqs. "" then goto done_as_tools_exe
$ e = f$parse(f,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
$ t = f$parse(f,,,"TYPE","SYNTAX_ONLY")
$ 'e' :== $as_tools:'e''t'
$ goto get_as_tools_exe
$!
$done_as_tools_exe:
...
and something similar for the specific directories
like [as.ckermit]
However, HP has in the past used a different hierarchy for
some tools. For example, LTT gets put in
sys$sysdevice:[vms$common.opt.ltt]
I assume that if I installed LTT on some Linux system, it
woudl get put in /opt/ltt.
You might consider that as well.
--
Dale Dellutri <daQQQle@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 19:29 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <AeWdnZmLCdxAlMfKnZ2dnUU7-YXNnZ2d@westnet.com.au> |
| In reply to | #58131 |
Dale Dellutri wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:18:47, Paul Richards
> <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. So,
> > a noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source
> > software and Freeware.
> >
> > For those applications which don't automatically install where
> > should I locate them such that I can run them from any directory?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Paul
>
> Here's what I do for my "acquired software".
>
> First I create a hierarchy on the system disk:
> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS]
> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.CKERMIT]
> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.TOOLS]
> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.LYNX]
> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.VIM]
>
> Then in system startup I define a system logical for the top:
> $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE -
> /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES=CONCEALED AS_ROOT SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.]
> And logicals for the rest of the directories
> $ @SYS_DEFINE_LOGICALS_STARTUP AS
>
> which executes:
> $!
> $! DEFINE_LOGICALS.COM - Define logical names for a hierarchy on
> SYS$SYSDEVICE $!
> $! P1 = Top level directory name
> $!
> $ ON ERROR THEN EXIT
> $ IF p1 .EQS. ""
> $ THEN
> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "No top level directory name given"
> $ EXIT
> $ ENDIF
> $ IF F$TRNLNM("''p1'_ROOT") .EQS. ""
> $ THEN
> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''p1'_ROOT not defined"
> $ EXIT
> $ ENDIF
> $GET_DIRNAME:
> $ filespec = F$SEARCH("SYS$SYSDEVICE:[''p1']*.DIR")
> $ dirname = F$PARSE(filespec,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
> $ IF dirname .EQS. "" THEN EXIT
> $ trnname = F$TRNLNM("''p1'_''dirname'")
> $ IF trnname .NES. "" THEN GOTO GET_DIRNAME
> $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE 'p1'_'dirname' 'p1'_ROOT:['dirname']
> $ GOTO GET_DIRNAME
> $!
>
> I've put all of the ckermit files in [as.ckermit], and
> miscellaneous tools like zip in [as.tools].
>
> Then for all the *.exe files in as_tools, I have this
> in the system login procedure:
> ...
> $!
> $get_as_tools_exe:
> $ f = f$search("AS_TOOLS:*.*EXE")
> $ if f .eqs. "" then goto done_as_tools_exe
> $ e = f$parse(f,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
> $ t = f$parse(f,,,"TYPE","SYNTAX_ONLY")
> $ 'e' :== $as_tools:'e''t'
> $ goto get_as_tools_exe
> $!
> $done_as_tools_exe:
> ...
>
> and something similar for the specific directories
> like [as.ckermit]
>
> However, HP has in the past used a different hierarchy for
> some tools. For example, LTT gets put in
> sys$sysdevice:[vms$common.opt.ltt]
> I assume that if I installed LTT on some Linux system, it
> woudl get put in /opt/ltt.
>
> You might consider that as well.
Dale: thank you for that. I've still not decided what I'm going to do
but, probably, I'll create a 'MISCELLANEOUS' directory on my second
virtual disk - not the system disk - and keep all my
freeware/open-source software in subdirectories. Essentially what you
and others have suggested. I prefer not to mix up 'my' stuff with the
system directories, at least where I have the option of choosing.
Paul
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 06:23 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <aurp2d-qu12.ln1@news.chingola.ch> |
| In reply to | #58148 |
On 2016-06-10, Paul Richards <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Dale Dellutri wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:18:47, Paul Richards
>> <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> > I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. So,
>> > a noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source
>> > software and Freeware.
>> >
>> > For those applications which don't automatically install where
>> > should I locate them such that I can run them from any directory?
>> >
>>
>> Here's what I do for my "acquired software".
>>
>> First I create a hierarchy on the system disk:
>> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS]
>> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.CKERMIT]
>> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.TOOLS]
>> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.LYNX]
>> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.VIM]
>>
>> Then in system startup I define a system logical for the top:
>> $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE -
>> /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES=CONCEALED AS_ROOT SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.]
>> And logicals for the rest of the directories
>> $ @SYS_DEFINE_LOGICALS_STARTUP AS
>>
>> which executes:
>> $!
>> $! DEFINE_LOGICALS.COM - Define logical names for a hierarchy on
>> SYS$SYSDEVICE $!
>> $! P1 = Top level directory name
>> $!
>> $ ON ERROR THEN EXIT
>> $ IF p1 .EQS. ""
>> $ THEN
>> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "No top level directory name given"
>> $ EXIT
>> $ ENDIF
>> $ IF F$TRNLNM("''p1'_ROOT") .EQS. ""
>> $ THEN
>> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''p1'_ROOT not defined"
>> $ EXIT
>> $ ENDIF
>> $GET_DIRNAME:
>> $ filespec = F$SEARCH("SYS$SYSDEVICE:[''p1']*.DIR")
>> $ dirname = F$PARSE(filespec,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
>> $ IF dirname .EQS. "" THEN EXIT
>> $ trnname = F$TRNLNM("''p1'_''dirname'")
>> $ IF trnname .NES. "" THEN GOTO GET_DIRNAME
>> $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE 'p1'_'dirname' 'p1'_ROOT:['dirname']
>> $ GOTO GET_DIRNAME
>> $!
>>
>> I've put all of the ckermit files in [as.ckermit], and
>> miscellaneous tools like zip in [as.tools].
>>
>> Then for all the *.exe files in as_tools, I have this
>> in the system login procedure:
>> ...
>> $!
>> $get_as_tools_exe:
>> $ f = f$search("AS_TOOLS:*.*EXE")
>> $ if f .eqs. "" then goto done_as_tools_exe
>> $ e = f$parse(f,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
>> $ t = f$parse(f,,,"TYPE","SYNTAX_ONLY")
>> $ 'e' :== $as_tools:'e''t'
>> $ goto get_as_tools_exe
>> $!
>> $done_as_tools_exe:
>> ...
>>
>> and something similar for the specific directories
>> like [as.ckermit]
>>
>> However, HP has in the past used a different hierarchy for
>> some tools. For example, LTT gets put in
>> sys$sysdevice:[vms$common.opt.ltt]
>> I assume that if I installed LTT on some Linux system, it
>> woudl get put in /opt/ltt.
>>
>> You might consider that as well.
>
> Dale: thank you for that. I've still not decided what I'm going to do
> but, probably, I'll create a 'MISCELLANEOUS' directory on my second
> virtual disk - not the system disk - and keep all my
> freeware/open-source software in subdirectories. Essentially what you
> and others have suggested. I prefer not to mix up 'my' stuff with the
> system directories, at least where I have the option of choosing.
Hi Paul,
I've been watching this thread with interest, and I particularly like
Dale's solution. I would probably put a copy of the last code snippet
above in its own file so that it is easily executed on demand when new
utilities are added, or the rare occasions when logging in via
<username>/NOCOMMMAND is appropriate (this to skip execution of the
system wide login procedure, for example a runaway process hogging the
system and you wish to login as quickly as possible without the normal
login file overhead, or simply when you've broken something in there).
Dale's approach of putting utilities such as kermit, lynx, "tools"
(which I envisage to be things like zip/unzip, gzip, gunzip etc) on the
system disk is a favourite too, because they are available when only the
system disk mounted, often precisely the time you need them.
What I would refer to as "applications" or "end-user" utilities would
probably, but not necessarily, live on a separate disk; benefits:
a) a clear separation of system and applications for management purposes
b) performance: not only to avoid I/O contention between the system and
applications but to avoid unnecessary file fragmentation
Wherever you decide to put them, applications should live in a well
defined directory structure of their own.
FWIW, the "naming" bit of my sig is entirely serious. Well thought out
and easily enforceable naming conventions at the beginning of a project
*will* save much pain later.
--
There are two hard things in computer science, and they are cache invalidation,
naming, and off-by-one errors.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 23:45 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <xv2dnaG5hKp82MfKnZ2dnUU7-aHNnZ2d@westnet.com.au> |
| In reply to | #58154 |
Paul Sture wrote:
> On 2016-06-10, Paul Richards <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > Dale Dellutri wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:18:47, Paul Richards
> >> <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >> > I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie.
> So, >> > a noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP
> Open-source >> > software and Freeware.
> >> >
> >> > For those applications which don't automatically install where
> >> > should I locate them such that I can run them from any directory?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Here's what I do for my "acquired software".
> >>
> >> First I create a hierarchy on the system disk:
> >> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS]
> >> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.CKERMIT]
> >> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.TOOLS]
> >> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.LYNX]
> >> $ CRE/DIR/LOG SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.VIM]
> >>
> >> Then in system startup I define a system logical for the top:
> >> $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE -
> >> /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES=CONCEALED AS_ROOT
> SYS$SYSDEVICE:[AS.] >> And logicals for the rest of the directories
> >> $ @SYS_DEFINE_LOGICALS_STARTUP AS
> >>
> >> which executes:
> >> $!
> >> $! DEFINE_LOGICALS.COM - Define logical names for a hierarchy on
> >> SYS$SYSDEVICE $!
> >> $! P1 = Top level directory name
> >> $!
> >> $ ON ERROR THEN EXIT
> >> $ IF p1 .EQS. ""
> >> $ THEN
> >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "No top level directory name given"
> >> $ EXIT
> >> $ ENDIF
> >> $ IF F$TRNLNM("''p1'_ROOT") .EQS. ""
> >> $ THEN
> >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''p1'_ROOT not defined"
> >> $ EXIT
> >> $ ENDIF
> >> $GET_DIRNAME:
> >> $ filespec = F$SEARCH("SYS$SYSDEVICE:[''p1']*.DIR")
> >> $ dirname = F$PARSE(filespec,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
> >> $ IF dirname .EQS. "" THEN EXIT
> >> $ trnname = F$TRNLNM("''p1'_''dirname'")
> >> $ IF trnname .NES. "" THEN GOTO GET_DIRNAME
> >> $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXECUTIVE_MODE 'p1'_'dirname'
> 'p1'_ROOT:['dirname'] >> $ GOTO GET_DIRNAME
> >> $!
> >>
> >> I've put all of the ckermit files in [as.ckermit], and
> >> miscellaneous tools like zip in [as.tools].
> >>
> >> Then for all the *.exe files in as_tools, I have this
> >> in the system login procedure:
> >> ...
> >> $!
> >> $get_as_tools_exe:
> >> $ f = f$search("AS_TOOLS:*.*EXE")
> >> $ if f .eqs. "" then goto done_as_tools_exe
> >> $ e = f$parse(f,,,"NAME","SYNTAX_ONLY")
> >> $ t = f$parse(f,,,"TYPE","SYNTAX_ONLY")
> >> $ 'e' :== $as_tools:'e''t'
> >> $ goto get_as_tools_exe
> >> $!
> >> $done_as_tools_exe:
> >> ...
> >>
> >> and something similar for the specific directories
> >> like [as.ckermit]
> >>
> >> However, HP has in the past used a different hierarchy for
> >> some tools. For example, LTT gets put in
> >> sys$sysdevice:[vms$common.opt.ltt]
> >> I assume that if I installed LTT on some Linux system, it
> >> woudl get put in /opt/ltt.
> >>
> >> You might consider that as well.
> >
> > Dale: thank you for that. I've still not decided what I'm going to
> > do but, probably, I'll create a 'MISCELLANEOUS' directory on my
> > second virtual disk - not the system disk - and keep all my
> > freeware/open-source software in subdirectories. Essentially what
> > you and others have suggested. I prefer not to mix up 'my' stuff
> > with the system directories, at least where I have the option of
> > choosing.
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I've been watching this thread with interest, and I particularly like
> Dale's solution. I would probably put a copy of the last code snippet
> above in its own file so that it is easily executed on demand when new
> utilities are added, or the rare occasions when logging in via
> <username>/NOCOMMMAND is appropriate (this to skip execution of the
> system wide login procedure, for example a runaway process hogging the
> system and you wish to login as quickly as possible without the normal
> login file overhead, or simply when you've broken something in there).
>
> Dale's approach of putting utilities such as kermit, lynx, "tools"
> (which I envisage to be things like zip/unzip, gzip, gunzip etc) on
> the system disk is a favourite too, because they are available when
> only the system disk mounted, often precisely the time you need them.
>
> What I would refer to as "applications" or "end-user" utilities would
> probably, but not necessarily, live on a separate disk; benefits:
>
> a) a clear separation of system and applications for management
> purposes b) performance: not only to avoid I/O contention between the
> system and applications but to avoid unnecessary file fragmentation
>
> Wherever you decide to put them, applications should live in a well
> defined directory structure of their own.
>
> FWIW, the "naming" bit of my sig is entirely serious. Well thought
> out and easily enforceable naming conventions at the beginning of a
> project will save much pain later.
Paul: thanks for your observations. It would appear that the apps I
have chosen fall neatly into the 'tools' and 'end user' categories, so
your advice is welcome.
Paul
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 21:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <60045390-6727-4a8d-8207-d13067291c70@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #58154 |
> Wherever you decide to put them, applications should live > in a well defined directory structure of their own. I agree. I normally put my UTILITY directory on the system disk, because many of my systems have only one disk. I do try not to disturb SYS$SYSTEM and SYS$LIBRARY any more than absolutely necessary. Usually, that's not at all. > For example, around here, most executables are placed in a > UTILITY directory: I put many executables in the top-level UTILITY directory, but the source kits are situated lower in the tree, typically in places like [UTILITY.SOURCE.product.version] or [UTILITY.SOURCE.product-version], or similar, so, for example, a Zip development kit might be found in ALP$DKC0:[UTILITY.SOURCE.ZIP.zip31d04...]. Thus, executables may be found for many program versions in the SOURCE tree, but the top-level UTILITY directory normally has only the latest+greatest executable.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 00:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1ece7ff9-a828-4f65-aafd-567643b8ce31@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #58156 |
My solution is to put the executables in directories like UTILITY, TOOLS, GAMES, APPL and SYSMGR. All in [000000] and on one disk. The source trees are on a different disk and in [SOURCES.]. Not all eggs in one basket.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 08:26 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <njef59$his$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58157 |
Your system: Your rules. See: https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/VMSSystemManagement/ https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/IntroVMSEnvironment/ Note these are WIKI pages that anyone can help supply content to for helping people. Regards, -John wb8tyw@qsl.net_work
[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]
Page 8 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8]
Back to top | Article view | comp.os.vms
csiph-web