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PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping

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  PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-22 04:08 -0500
    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-22 11:15 +0200
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jim <mckinneyj@saic.com> - 2016-06-22 06:34 -0700
    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-22 10:12 -0400
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-22 21:05 +0200
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-22 22:06 -0500
    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-22 16:42 -0400
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-23 01:24 +0200
        Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-22 20:08 -0400
          Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-23 08:48 -0400
            Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-23 09:11 -0400
              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-24 03:10 -0700
                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-24 17:12 -0700
                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping hb <end.of@inter.net> - 2016-06-25 13:05 +0200
                    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-25 06:22 -0700
                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-24 21:26 -0400
                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-25 08:20 -0400
                    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-25 15:06 +0200
                      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-25 10:14 -0400
                      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-25 12:59 -0400
                        Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-25 21:36 +0200
                          Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-26 02:09 -0400
                            Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-26 10:42 +0200
                    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-27 09:28 -0400
                      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-27 10:19 -0400
                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-25 12:51 +0200
                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG - 2016-06-25 11:48 +0000
                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)) - 2016-06-25 12:08 +0000
                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-25 15:07 +0000
                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-27 09:25 -0400
              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-25 14:59 +0000
                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-25 21:41 +0200
                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-25 13:02 -0700
                    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping hb <end.of@inter.net> - 2016-06-26 17:00 +0200
                      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-26 08:39 -0700
                        Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-26 12:20 -0400
                          Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-26 10:20 -0700
                            math.h (Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping) "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-26 14:44 -0500
                            Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-26 16:04 -0400
                            Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-26 15:31 -0500
                              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-26 16:50 -0400
                                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-26 19:09 -0700
                              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-26 18:21 -0700
                                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-27 10:07 -0400
                                  Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-27 12:33 -0700
                                    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-27 16:06 -0400
                                      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-28 05:29 -0700
                        Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-26 11:21 -0500
                          Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-26 10:09 -0700
                    Emacs 21.2, was Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping hb <end.of@inter.net> - 2016-06-28 23:13 +0200
                      Re: Emacs 21.2, was Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-29 10:04 -0700
                    Re: Emacs 21.2, was Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)) - 2016-06-29 19:01 +0000
        Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Robert A. Brooks" <FIRST.LAST@vmssoftware.com> - 2016-06-22 23:09 -0400
          Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-23 09:06 +0200
            Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-23 12:48 -0400
          Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-23 08:57 -0400
            Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Kerry Main" <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> - 2016-06-23 09:55 -0400
              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-23 10:39 -0400
                Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Kerry Main" <kemain.nospam@gmail.com> - 2016-06-23 12:49 -0400
              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-24 08:44 -0400
              Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-24 03:11 -0700
    Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-22 20:59 -0700
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-23 00:30 -0500
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-23 00:33 -0500
      Re: PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-23 00:36 -0500

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#58749 — PC/VT Keyboarrd Mapping

I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy
to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do
not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.

Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes
emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?

I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop but I have function keys F1
- F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.

I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter
I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.

Thanks

-- 
Paul
Melbourne, Australia

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#58751

Den 2016-06-22 kl. 11:08, skrev Paul Richards:
> I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
> bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy
> to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do
> not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.
>
> Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes
> emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
>
> I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop...

And there is your problem. Get yourself a new laptop. In these
days, a laptop with numaric keypad has become standard and you
pay extra for the smaller/lighter models, not the other way
around as it was some years ago.

> but I have function keys F1
> - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.
>
> I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter
> I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.
>
> Thanks
>

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#58764

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 5:15:47 AM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Den 2016-06-22 kl. 11:08, skrev Paul Richards:
> > I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
> > bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy
> > to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do
> > not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.
> >
> > Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes
> > emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
> >
> > I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop...
> 
> And there is your problem. Get yourself a new laptop. In these
> days, a laptop with numaric keypad has become standard and you
> pay extra for the smaller/lighter models, not the other way
> around as it was some years ago.
> 
> > but I have function keys F1
> > - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.
> >
> > I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter
> > I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.
> >
> > Thanks
> >

Or maybe add a USB keyboard with a numeric keypad (if mobility is not an issue).

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#58769

On 2016-06-22 09:08:51 +0000, Paul Richards said:

> I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is 
> bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy 
> to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do 
> not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.0
> 
> Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes 
> emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
> 
> I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop but I have function keys F1
> - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.

Check the PuTTY docs to see how they map the keypad keys, in the 
absence of a numeric keypad.

http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/0.53b/htmldoc/Chapter4.html#4.4.3

Using a keyboard without a numeric keypad is going to mean figuring out 
how to use the tools without needing the keypad, or figuring out which 
chord the keyboard uses to generate the particular keypress, or getting 
an add-on numeric keypad that the emulator supports.  That's (usually) 
in the editor documentation.  Sometimes the box — and it's been a 
~decade since I've particularly used a Windows box — has a way to 
enable the keypad within the keyboard.  Windows from an aeon or two ago 
used NUMLOCK or shift-NUMLOCK for that embedded keypad, IIRC.

> I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter 
> I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.

Search the comp.os.vms archives for key mapping discussions and 
terminal emulator discussions — there are quite a few of these over the 
years.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.vms/9DIFTtYLpn0/elmyIr62NwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.vms/HtUX-GuyqbM/0NOjo9V9yTkJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.vms/pUQW5AJbEh0/FPZSoo9vEQIJ



-- 
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC 

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#58779

On 2016-06-22, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-06-22 09:08:51 +0000, Paul Richards said:

<snip>

>  Windows from an aeon or two ago used NUMLOCK or shift-NUMLOCK for
>  that embedded keypad, IIRC.

FWIW I have used the equivalent on an OS X laptop to jump back and forth
and use the 'numeric keypad' overlay on the keyboard.

Not the most satisfying of experiences but it did do the job.

A useful workaround for TPU is to define ctrl-D as Do and ctrl-F as
Find.  You can still do stuff if you find yourself without the
application keypad, albeit slowly.

Here is my EVE$INIT file (I picked ctrl-D and CTRL-F not only because
they provide something easy to remember but because they are not
used by default by either EVE or DCL command line editing):

$ type eve$init
DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO
DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND

 and the login.com entry to enable it:

$ define eve$init sys$login:eveini.eve


EDT in line mode is also useful, and of course once you are up and
running to the point where you can install Vim, you need neither the
numeric keypad nor function keys.

-- 
There are two hard things in computer science, and they are cache invalidation,
naming, and off-by-one errors.

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#58813

Stephen Hoffman wrote:

> On 2016-06-22 09:08:51 +0000, Paul Richards said:
> 
> > I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
> > bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it
> > easy  to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes
> > emitted do  not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.0
> > 
> > Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the
> > keycodes  emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
> > 
> > I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop but I have function keys
> > F1 - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.
> 
> Check the PuTTY docs to see how they map the keypad keys, in the
> absence of a numeric keypad.
> 
> http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/0.53b/htmldoc/Chapter4.html#4.4.3
> 
> Using a keyboard without a numeric keypad is going to mean figuring
> out how to use the tools without needing the keypad, or figuring out
> which chord the keyboard uses to generate the particular keypress, or
> getting an add-on numeric keypad that the emulator supports.  That's
> (usually) in the editor documentation.  Sometimes the box — and it's
> been a ~decade since I've particularly used a Windows box — has a way
> to enable the keypad within the keyboard.  Windows from an aeon or
> two ago used NUMLOCK or shift-NUMLOCK for that embedded keypad, IIRC.
> 
> > I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the
> > latter  I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.
> 
> Search the comp.os.vms archives for key mapping discussions and
> terminal emulator discussions — there are quite a few of these over
> the years.
> 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.vms/9DIFTtYLpn0/elmyIr62NwAJ
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.vms/HtUX-GuyqbM/0NOjo9V9yTkJ
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.vms/pUQW5AJbEh0/FPZSoo9vEQIJ

Steven (and others): I have found another laptop which has a numeric
keypad. I've copied over FreeAXP/OpenVMS and certainly the F1 - F10
keys now work as expected with, say, VTFM.

It seems that, depending on whether NUM-LOCK is on or off, certain keys
e.g./, *, -, emit different responses.

-- 
Paul
Melbourne, Australia

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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#58788

Paul Richards wrote:
> I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
> bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy
> to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do
> not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.
> 
> Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes
> emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
> 
> I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop but I have function keys F1
> - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.
> 
> I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter
> I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.
> 
> Thanks
> 

I'm just sooo happy with the LK411-AA keyboard I'm using, and it's going to be a 
dark day if it ever quite working ....

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#58801

Den 2016-06-22 kl. 22:42, skrev David Froble:
> Paul Richards wrote:
>> I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
>> bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy
>> to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do
>> not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.
>>
>> Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes
>> emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
>>
>> I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop but I have function keys F1
>> - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter
>> I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
> I'm just sooo happy with the LK411-AA keyboard I'm using, and it's going to
> be a dark day if it ever quite working ....

Any truly professional would quickly adopt to whatever new/modern
hardware there is. Asking for old discontinued keyboards will probably
only be an disservice to VMS, making it look even worse.

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#58806

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Den 2016-06-22 kl. 22:42, skrev David Froble:
>> Paul Richards wrote:
>>> I'm running OpenVMS on the FreeAXP emulator with PuTTY, which is
>>> bundled with FreeAXP.Unfortunately my PC keyboard does not make it easy
>>> to use VMS software like editors, e.g. EDT, as the keycodes emitted do
>>> not match up with those expected from a VT100/200 etc.
>>>
>>> Is there a way of somehow mapping the PC keyboard so that the keycodes
>>> emitted match up with those of the VT100/200?
>>>
>>> I don't have a numeric keypad on my laptop but I have function keys F1
>>> - F12 and the usual QWERTY keyboard.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if this a VT question or a PuTTY question. If the latter
>>> I'd appreciate any links to possible solutions.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>
>> I'm just sooo happy with the LK411-AA keyboard I'm using, and it's 
>> going to
>> be a dark day if it ever quite working ....
> 
> Any truly professional would quickly adopt to whatever new/modern
> hardware there is. Asking for old discontinued keyboards will probably
> only be an disservice to VMS, making it look even worse.

So, when the Fred Flintstone cars come out, you're going to give up your current 
car?

Better, yes.

Backward, NO!

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#58836

On 2016-06-23 00:08:13 +0000, David Froble said:

> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> 
>> Any truly professional would quickly adopt to whatever new/modern 
>> hardware there is. Asking for old discontinued keyboards will probably 
>> only be an disservice to VMS, making it look even worse.
> 
> So, when the Fred Flintstone cars come out, you're going to give up 
> your current car?
> 
> Better, yes.
> 
> Backward, NO!

VSI has a choice to make.  Adopt the PC keyboard in OpenVMS software 
and RTLs and in the documentation, adopt some other keyboard such as 
the Apple extended wired, or get into the traditional LK keyboard 
manufacturing business directly or with Nemonix or some other vendor.  
Or continue to ignore the keyboard difficulties and presume that the 
VT/LK keyboard interface is an emulator problem, which has been the 
keyboard strategy for a while.  But those existing LK keyboards are all 
aging out.  That's even if VSI's statements against plans for OpenVMS 
workstation support hold, as you'll still need console or iLO or DRAC 
keyboard access for the baseline configuration and then for server 
management operations, as OpenVMS can't (yet?) be remotely managed, 
provisioned and deployed.



-- 
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC 

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#58841

In article <nkglq6$p3s$1@dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes:
> 
> VSI has a choice to make.  Adopt the PC keyboard in OpenVMS software 
> and RTLs and in the documentation, adopt some other keyboard such as 
> the Apple extended wired, or get into the traditional LK keyboard 
> manufacturing business directly or with Nemonix or some other vendor.  
> Or continue to ignore the keyboard difficulties and presume that the 
> VT/LK keyboard interface is an emulator problem, which has been the 
> keyboard strategy for a while.  But those existing LK keyboards are all 
> aging out.  That's even if VSI's statements against plans for OpenVMS 
> workstation support hold, as you'll still need console or iLO or DRAC 
> keyboard access for the baseline configuration and then for server 
> management operations, as OpenVMS can't (yet?) be remotely managed, 
> provisioned and deployed.

   I've asked for this before, and I'll say it again.  VMS needs to have
   keyboard layouts for EDT and DEBUG that are PC friendly.  TPU's
   predefined keyboards should also have that variation.

   But I mean full PC keyboards, with all 3 keypads.  Anyone who wants
   to live without the other keypads can run vi and gdb, for all I care.

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#58892

On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 1:13:04 AM UTC+12, Bob Koehler wrote:

>    I've asked for this before, and I'll say it again.  VMS needs to have
>    keyboard layouts for EDT and DEBUG that are PC friendly.

EDT is another tool that needs to die.

In my RSTS/E days, we used a TECO-based screen editor called VTED (a local adaptation of some code originally from DECUS or somewhere). Unfortunately that was never ported to the VAX. So I gritted my teeth and put up with EDT for whatever far-too-long fraction of my lifetime it was until TPU came along, which was halfway decent in comparison (even with that weird initial (mis)behaviour with search pattern matches).

Nowadays of course I use Emacs. Is Emacs available for VMS? That has to be a big improvement to whatever DEC-originated editor you might be using now.

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#58895

On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:40:24 PM UTC-4, lawren...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 1:13:04 AM UTC+12, Bob Koehler wrote:
> 
> >    I've asked for this before, and I'll say it again.  VMS needs to have
> >    keyboard layouts for EDT and DEBUG that are PC friendly.
> 
> EDT is another tool that needs to die.
> 
> In my RSTS/E days, we used a TECO-based screen editor called VTED (a local adaptation of some code originally from DECUS or somewhere). Unfortunately that was never ported to the VAX. So I gritted my teeth and put up with EDT for whatever far-too-long fraction of my lifetime it was until TPU came along, which was halfway decent in comparison (even with that weird initial (mis)behaviour with search pattern matches).
> 
> Nowadays of course I use Emacs. Is Emacs available for VMS? That has to be a big improvement to whatever DEC-originated editor you might be using now.

There is at least two different Emacs for OpenVMS.  That is what I use as a daily editor.  Works great using PuTTY via my Windows 7 box.

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#58906

On 06/25/2016 02:12 AM, John Reagan wrote:
>>> Nowadays of course I use Emacs. Is Emacs available for VMS? That
>>> has to be a big improvement to whatever DEC-originated editor you
>>> might be using now.
> There is at least two different Emacs for OpenVMS.  That is what I
> use as a daily editor.  Works great using PuTTY via my Windows 7
> box.

I don't know about these two different versions John is referring to.
The support for VMS was removed in Emacs 23. There are sources which
claim to be version 21.2, which I didn't find in any source repository.
These sources are on the VMS freeware CD V8.0. They should build and
work on Alpha. In the same directory there are source code changes for
that version which make it build and run on I64. In
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.vms/DGISjZP4fUs%5B151-175%5D
there is a pointer to changes for VAX.

Then there is microemacs (uemacs or µemacs) which should build and run
on VMS. I haven't tried it for a long time. I don't know what the
current version is. There was at least the popular version 3.12 for
which you can find executables for VAX and Alpha. It's not obvious to me
whether microemacs is still maintained.

Then there is jed, which comes with a emacs and EDT mode
(http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/). Current version is 0.99-19 It should
build on Alpha and I64. It is still maintained. There are executables of
an older version (0.99-17) on the VMS freeware CD V7.0 (the version on
V8.0 is even older).

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#58911

On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 7:06:07 AM UTC-4, hb wrote:
> On 06/25/2016 02:12 AM, John Reagan wrote:
> >>> Nowadays of course I use Emacs. Is Emacs available for VMS? That
> >>> has to be a big improvement to whatever DEC-originated editor you
> >>> might be using now.
> > There is at least two different Emacs for OpenVMS.  That is what I
> > use as a daily editor.  Works great using PuTTY via my Windows 7
> > box.
> 
> I don't know about these two different versions John is referring to.
> The support for VMS was removed in Emacs 23. There are sources which
> claim to be version 21.2, which I didn't find in any source repository.
> These sources are on the VMS freeware CD V8.0. They should build and
> work on Alpha. In the same directory there are source code changes for
> that version which make it build and run on I64. In
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.vms/DGISjZP4fUs%5B151-175%5D
> there is a pointer to changes for VAX.
> 

That the one I use.  21.2.  I didn't mean to imply current support but that you can get a somewhat recent version of Emacs.  I probably can use it for another 50 years before I'd learn enough Emacs to tell the difference between 21.2 and the latest version.

Doug G uses the older DEC Emacs, not sure of the heritage of that one.

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#58900

lawrencedo99@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 1:13:04 AM UTC+12, Bob Koehler wrote:
> 
>>    I've asked for this before, and I'll say it again.  VMS needs to have
>>    keyboard layouts for EDT and DEBUG that are PC friendly.
> 
> EDT is another tool that needs to die.
> 
> In my RSTS/E days, we used a TECO-based screen editor called VTED (a local adaptation of some code originally from DECUS or somewhere). Unfortunately that was never ported to the VAX. So I gritted my teeth and put up with EDT for whatever far-too-long fraction of my lifetime it was until TPU came along, which was halfway decent in comparison (even with that weird initial (mis)behaviour with search pattern matches).
> 
> Nowadays of course I use Emacs. Is Emacs available for VMS? That has to be a big improvement to whatever DEC-originated editor you might be using now.

Why is it that whatever you use is great ... and whatever I use should die?

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#58909

On 2016-06-25 01:26:25 +0000, David Froble said:

> Why is it that whatever you use is great ... and whatever I use should die?

There are no new LK keyboards.  There are fewer keyboards with keypads, too.

Unfortunately what you're using — the keypad-based application and 
keypad-based editors — is dying out, David.  (I too became quite fond 
of keypad tools, but then the GUI won for most folks and most users, 
and the command-line tools went to the subset keyboard or — for those 
that really needed it — to the PC-compatible keyboard.)    The 
added-function-button PC keyboards are becoming scarce, too.

But if you're using EDT now and are not likely to migrate to a 
keyboard-based editor, try LSEDIT.  It has the same EDT keypad, it's 
much faster than EDT, and COMPILE /REVIEW is well worth the effort of 
the migration from EDT.   The pattern searches are very handy, too.  
Yes, the LSEDIT command line is different.   LSEDIT can be run without 
the keypad, as can EDT.  But I find the LSEDIT command line easier to 
deal with.

Downside: EDT, LSEDIT and EVE/TPU are OpenVMS-specific, and don't exist 
on other platforms.  (Yes, you can find some open source for EDT, but 
then you're back in the keypad quagmire.)

Among the more common text editors...  Learning vim or emacs here will 
take many years to retrain your fingers and to learn the new commands.  
     The usual analog to EDT on other systems is the pico / nano 
editor, and that's keyboard based.   No keypad is required.  But that's 
where the command line is headed.  For application development, the GUI 
and IDEs are what most folks are increasingly using.  The available 
IDEs on other platforms well past what LSEDIT can provide, and 
massively far past the edit-compile-link sequence common on OpenVMS.

But for OpenVMS software and tools — whether you're at VSI or an 
end-user, and whether the software is OpenVMS itself or some 
application package — the DEC VT LK-series keyboard is no longer 
manufactured.  If that doesn't provide a convincing argument around 
where hardware and dependent software is inevitably headed, I'm not 
sure what will.  Even if the LK production starts up again, that still 
adds hardware dependencies for all of the users involved in the 
LK-dependent project.

OpenVMS apps either need to forget about the VMS-layout LK and/or 
provide an alternative to the keypad, or somebody start up LK 
production.   And then sell enough of those new LK keyboards to matter, 
and that seems unlikely to succeed given pricing and commoditization.


-- 
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC 

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#58910

Den 2016-06-25 kl. 14:20, skrev Stephen Hoffman:
> On 2016-06-25 01:26:25 +0000, David Froble said:
>
>> Why is it that whatever you use is great ... and whatever I use should die?
>
> There are fewer keyboards with keypads, too.

It's not what I'm seeing. Many new "professional" laptops has
larger screens today, and it seems as the manfacturers just as
well put in a real keyboard with numeric kaypad also.

And besides, even if you have an laptop, most professionals will
hook up an external keyboard and screen anyway.

> Unfortunately what you're using — the keypad-based application...

You've got to keep applications apart from the editing.
I use EDT to edit our web based "GUI" applications.

> and keypad-based editors — is dying out...

EDT isn't "dying". Or, it is dying at the same pace as VMS is.

> OpenVMS apps either need to forget about the VMS-layout LK and/or provide
> an alternative to the keypad...

The keypad works just OK on any standard PC keyboard. With a few small
differences that should be easy to learn for any IT professional.

Or are you now talking about the end-user applications? Yes, they should
not be depending on VT-style kayboards and keys, and they will probably
mostly be based on web interfaces, so it is a non-issue. I do not see
a huge volume of newly written VT-based applications today.

But that is something completely different then me using EDT.

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#58912

On 2016-06-25 13:06:18 +0000, Jan-Erik Soderholm said:

> Den 2016-06-25 kl. 14:20, skrev Stephen Hoffman:
>> On 2016-06-25 01:26:25 +0000, David Froble said:
>> 
>>> Why is it that whatever you use is great ... and whatever I use should die?
>> 
>> There are fewer keyboards with keypads, too.
> 
> It's not what I'm seeing. Many new "professional" laptops has larger 
> screens today, and it seems as the manfacturers just as well put in a 
> real keyboard with numeric kaypad also.

Big and heavy laptops, sure.   Some folks have called those 
battleship-class.   For the folks that are unable or unwilling to carry 
around the extra weight that's typically associated with those laptops, 
a different approach for applications is warranted.

> And besides, even if you have an laptop, most professionals will hook 
> up an external keyboard and screen anyway.

Yes, many will.  For those using OpenVMS, ponder why that might be the 
case.   The laptop keyboard might be cramped or might just be a bad 
keyboard — both of those cases certainly exist — or the folks might be 
using keys and keypads and features that don't exist on the laptop 
keyboard.   It's the latter case that I'm referencing.   Which means 
you're adding hardware.  In the case of the LK, hardware which is no 
longer manufactured is a prerequisite for effective use of the 
software.   I've seen more than a few folks using external mice, too.

Watching a typical Windows user arrive at a table, set up the power 
supply and — for those that want or need it — the external keyboard and 
the mouse — is always interesting to watch.   Particularly when 
comparing with folks that don't.    Roller bags or porters can help 
with all that, too.   But I digress.

Keeping application software working is laudable.    But dependencies 
on declining hardware and particularly dependences on hardware that is 
no longer available — such as the DEC LK — not so much.  Best to remove 
those dependencies.

> 
>> Unfortunately what you're using — the keypad-based application...
> 
> You've got to keep applications apart from the editing.
> I use EDT to edit our web based "GUI" applications.

Applications using the keypad are dying out.   EDT is an application.

Applications that use the LK are dead.  That hardware is no longer available.

Applications that use a PC keyboard and a full-size PC keypad are 
certainly preferable to those still using a DEC LK layout, but those 
applications are still reducing what hardware is compatible with the 
applications.

>> and keypad-based editors — is dying out...
> 
> EDT isn't "dying". Or, it is dying at the same pace as VMS is.

EDT was deprecated some twenty years ago.  EVE/TPU and LSEDIT were the 
migration path.

Keypad-based editors and other keypad-based applications are dying out. 
 That's because you can depend on the keyboard being present, but can't 
depend on the keypad — PC extended, or particularly the DEC LK — being 
available.

>> OpenVMS apps either need to forget about the VMS-layout LK and/or provide
>> an alternative to the keypad...
> 
> The keypad works just OK on any standard PC keyboard. With a few small 
> differences that should be easy to learn for any IT professional.

Other than that applications that have dependencies on the keypad, and 
that the traditional extended keypad is becoming less common, and that 
the DEC LK keyboard is no longer manufactured, sure.

Get off the LK.

Reduce your dependencies on the full-sized keyboards, and work to 
eliminate dependencies on DEC LK keyboard layouts.




-- 
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC 

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#58918

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Den 2016-06-25 kl. 14:20, skrev Stephen Hoffman:
>> On 2016-06-25 01:26:25 +0000, David Froble said:
>>
>>> Why is it that whatever you use is great ... and whatever I use 
>>> should die?
>>
>> There are fewer keyboards with keypads, too.
> 
> It's not what I'm seeing. Many new "professional" laptops has
> larger screens today, and it seems as the manfacturers just as
> well put in a real keyboard with numeric kaypad also.
> 
> And besides, even if you have an laptop, most professionals will
> hook up an external keyboard and screen anyway.
> 
>> Unfortunately what you're using — the keypad-based application...
> 
> You've got to keep applications apart from the editing.
> I use EDT to edit our web based "GUI" applications.
> 
>> and keypad-based editors — is dying out...
> 
> EDT isn't "dying". Or, it is dying at the same pace as VMS is.
> 
>> OpenVMS apps either need to forget about the VMS-layout LK and/or provide
>> an alternative to the keypad...
> 
> The keypad works just OK on any standard PC keyboard. With a few small
> differences that should be easy to learn for any IT professional.
> 
> Or are you now talking about the end-user applications? Yes, they should
> not be depending on VT-style kayboards and keys, and they will probably
> mostly be based on web interfaces, so it is a non-issue. I do not see
> a huge volume of newly written VT-based applications today.
> 
> But that is something completely different then me using EDT.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he wrote ....

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