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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #80972 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-01-12 07:24 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-01-18 13:01 +0100 |
| Articles | 14 — 9 participants |
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Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-12 07:24 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-12 07:43 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-12 08:39 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-12 19:39 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-12 23:40 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-13 01:48 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-01-12 23:15 -0500
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-13 07:54 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-13 08:07 -0800
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-13 11:50 -0500
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-15 14:06 +0100
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-17 12:11 +0000
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-01-17 19:49 -0500
Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-18 13:01 +0100
| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-12 07:24 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: AI-Based Coding Taking Over |
| Message-ID | <10k27ip$260ec$1@dont-email.me> |
On Wed, 26 Nov 2025 13:23:41 +0200, Anssi Saari wrote: > I wonder how well those things manage software lifecycle? I know of no solution that successfully combines graphical-based programming with effective version control. Even after decades of experience with both, there is still no graphical equivalent to the ability to do a diff on plain text files.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-12 07:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <msjn12F990eU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #80972 |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 07:24:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Wed, 26 Nov 2025 13:23:41 +0200, Anssi Saari wrote: > >> I wonder how well those things manage software lifecycle? > > I know of no solution that successfully combines graphical-based > programming with effective version control. Even after decades of > experience with both, there is still no graphical equivalent to the > ability to do a diff on plain text files. I'm not sure what you mean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_SourceSafe It sucked but you could easily do a diff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TortoiseSVN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VisualSVN I used subversion from the command line but either are okay.
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-12 08:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <wwvpl7f6x96.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #80973 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes: > Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >> Anssi Saari wrote: >>> I wonder how well those things manage software lifecycle? >> >> I know of no solution that successfully combines graphical-based >> programming with effective version control. Even after decades of >> experience with both, there is still no graphical equivalent to the >> ability to do a diff on plain text files. > > I'm not sure what you mean. He’s asking how you show the difference between two versions of a program written in a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_SourceSafe > > It sucked but you could easily do a diff. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TortoiseSVN > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VisualSVN > > I used subversion from the command line but either are okay. Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something written in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of whatever internal representation the language implementation used. -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-12 19:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <msl0vnFgebrU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #80976 |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something written > in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of > whatever internal representation the language implementation used. Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not Scratch. I didn't know that was used outside of grade school.
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-12 23:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10k40os$2o9fl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81004 |
On 2026-01-12, rbowman wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > >> Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something written >> in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of >> whatever internal representation the language implementation used. > > Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not Scratch. > I didn't know that was used outside of grade school. While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. -- Nuno Silva
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| From | ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-13 01:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <visual-20260113024406@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> |
| In reply to | #81027 |
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:
>While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've
>at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet.
The cover of the September 1984 issue of Scientific American
featured a program in a visual programming language by Lanier
called "Mandala". (This issue contains articles by authors
such as Alan Kay, Niklaus Wirth, Terry Winograd, Stephen
Wolfram, and Douglas B. Lenat.)
Here's a program I wrote in my visual programming language.
(I never implemented that language, though.)
.--------------------------------------------.
| .---------------. |
| | .----. | |
| | ->| | | |
.-------. | | | <= | -> | |
[] --->| qsort |---> [] | | x ->| | | |
'-------' | | '----' | |
| '---------------' |
| | |
| v .---. |
| .------. .-------. | | |
.---------------. | xs -->| grep | ->| qsort | --->| | |
| .---. | | '------' '-------' | j | |
| x -->| | | .-------. | .------. | o | |
| | : | -> |-->| qsort | ->| x --->| list | --------------->| i | --> |
| xs ->| | | '-------' | '------' | n | |
| '___' | | .------. .-------. | | |
'---------------' | xs -->| grep | ->| qsort | --->| | |
| '------' '-------' | | |
| ^ '---' |
| | |
| .---------------. |
| | .----. | |
| | x ->| | | |
| | | < | -> | |
| | ->| | | |
| | '----' | |
| '---------------' |
'--------------------------------------------'
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-12 23:15 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <WmKdnWNEkZaYWvj0nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #81033 |
On 1/12/26 20:48, Stefan Ram wrote: > Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted: >> While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've >> at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. > > The cover of the September 1984 issue of Scientific American > featured a program in a visual programming language by Lanier > called "Mandala". (This issue contains articles by authors > such as Alan Kay, Niklaus Wirth, Terry Winograd, Stephen > Wolfram, and Douglas B. Lenat.) > > Here's a program I wrote in my visual programming language. > (I never implemented that language, though.) > > .--------------------------------------------. > | .---------------. | > | | .----. | | > | | ->| | | | > .-------. | | | <= | -> | | > [] --->| qsort |---> [] | | x ->| | | | > '-------' | | '----' | | > | '---------------' | > | | | > | v .---. | > | .------. .-------. | | | > .---------------. | xs -->| grep | ->| qsort | --->| | | > | .---. | | '------' '-------' | j | | > | x -->| | | .-------. | .------. | o | | > | | : | -> |-->| qsort | ->| x --->| list | --------------->| i | --> | > | xs ->| | | '-------' | '------' | n | | > | '___' | | .------. .-------. | | | > '---------------' | xs -->| grep | ->| qsort | --->| | | > | '------' '-------' | | | > | ^ '---' | > | | | > | .---------------. | > | | .----. | | > | | x ->| | | | > | | | < | -> | | > | | ->| | | | > | | '----' | | > | '---------------' | > '--------------------------------------------' > Such 'languages' CAN work ... but note that it's almost impossible to represent a lot of the fine-grained incidentals with them. 'AI' programming ... it's kind of 'modular', similar to yer 'graphical' programming. How well can IT cope with the fine-grained considerations ? Stupid-user issues ? Security issues ???
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-13 07:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <msmc0sFmv52U3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #81027 |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 23:40:12 +0000, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-01-12, rbowman wrote: > >> On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> >>> Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something >>> written in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff >>> of whatever internal representation the language implementation used. >> >> Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not >> Scratch. >> I didn't know that was used outside of grade school. > > While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've > at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. I repress really well. A few years ago I was tasked with evaluating Talend Open Studio, a graphical ETL tool where you dragged stuff around, connected it, and it was supposed to generate Java code. It sucked mightily. That was the general opinion, not mine alone. They were bought by Qlik and the Open Studio product was dropped. The dream in the ETL and BI world is pointy haired bosses can do something with big data without talking to those snotty programmers.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-13 08:07 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <20260113080706.0000472c@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #81054 |
On 13 Jan 2026 07:54:04 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > The dream in the ETL and BI world is pointy haired bosses can do > something with big data without talking to those snotty programmers. "Visual programming" has always seemed like a solution to a problem nobody has, dreamed up by people who don't really understand what the *actually* challenging parts of software development are.
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-13 11:50 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10k5t51$388ul$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81075 |
John Ames wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:
> On 13 Jan 2026 07:54:04 GMT
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> The dream in the ETL and BI world is pointy haired bosses can do
>> something with big data without talking to those snotty programmers.
Now they'll talk to snotty AI.
> "Visual programming" has always seemed like a solution to a problem
> nobody has, dreamed up by people who don't really understand what the
> *actually* challenging parts of software development are.
At work a few years ago I was forced by funding and then wanting
to get off a C#/.NET project (working for an arrogant cowboy) to
delve into the wonderful world of SysML/UAF. With Cameo Systems
Modeler (MagicDraw) one could use diagrams to create programs and
simulations.
Fairly clumsy and difficult to master. Plus some things couldn't
be done without paying for a plugin [e.g. ALF, the Action Language
for Foundational UML (fUML)]. Some calculations could be done
using Octave (free) or MATLAB ($$$).
One could also created documentation by drawing diagrams with
<<view>> elements (IIRC), <<viewpoints>>, <<blocks>>, and
connecting them. An example here, too fuzzy to read though:
<https://youtu.be/P7oTrUjLKU8?t=28>
I generated some fairly large documents (HTML, PDF) using it.
Again, clumsy.
There's also the Report Wizard, which uses the Velocity Template
Language (Apache license) to lay out page structures to fill in
with model data. Again, clumsy but workable, for generating
LibreOffice and Microsoft documents.
I was quite happy to retire and get back to C++, LaTeX, etc.
--
The grass is always greener on the other side of your sunglasses.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-15 14:06 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <va5n3mxurk.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #81027 |
On 2026-01-13 00:40, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-01-12, rbowman wrote: > >> On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> >>> Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something written >>> in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of >>> whatever internal representation the language implementation used. >> >> Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not Scratch. >> I didn't know that was used outside of grade school. > > While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've > at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW> You can see here how the code looks, it is a box graphic: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW#/media/File:Labview_code_example.png> Despite the name, it is not only for use in labs, we did production code for factories. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-17 12:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10kfu9f$2ekp2$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81155 |
On 2026-01-15, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-01-13 00:40, Nuno Silva wrote: >> On 2026-01-12, rbowman wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >>> >>>> Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something written >>>> in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of >>>> whatever internal representation the language implementation used. >>> >>> Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not Scratch. >>> I didn't know that was used outside of grade school. >> >> While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've >> at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. >> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW> > > You can see here how the code looks, it is a box graphic: > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW#/media/File:Labview_code_example.png> > > > Despite the name, it is not only for use in labs, we did production > code for factories. Ah yes, definitely heard of it, although I think I've never used it myself. -- Nuno Silva
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-17 19:49 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <6hednXZDWd67s_H0nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #81239 |
On 1/17/26 07:11, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-01-15, Carlos E.R. wrote: > >> On 2026-01-13 00:40, Nuno Silva wrote: >>> On 2026-01-12, rbowman wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >>>> >>>>> Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something written >>>>> in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of >>>>> whatever internal representation the language implementation used. >>>> >>>> Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not Scratch. >>>> I didn't know that was used outside of grade school. >>> >>> While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've >>> at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. >>> >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW> >> >> You can see here how the code looks, it is a box graphic: >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW#/media/File:Labview_code_example.png> >> >> >> Despite the name, it is not only for use in labs, we did production >> code for factories. > > Ah yes, definitely heard of it, although I think I've never used it > myself. If it can run a gas chromatograph machine it can run a giant production reactor for making polyethylene. LabView had a pretty good rep and I have heard of it being used for "factory stuff" as well. Old old days, banks of clickey relays and analog I/O. Then transistors. Now, software & digital. Tomorrow, digital 'AI' and humans will be mostly out of the loop.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-18 13:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <5muu3mxkli.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #81256 |
On 2026-01-18 01:49, c186282 wrote: > On 1/17/26 07:11, Nuno Silva wrote: >> On 2026-01-15, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> >>> On 2026-01-13 00:40, Nuno Silva wrote: >>>> On 2026-01-12, rbowman wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 08:39:01 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Those are diffs of text files. If you applied them to something >>>>>> written >>>>>> in a visual programming language the best you’d get is a diff of >>>>>> whatever internal representation the language implementation used. >>>>> >>>>> Okay, got it. I was associating 'visual' with Visual C++ etc, not >>>>> Scratch. >>>>> I didn't know that was used outside of grade school. >>>> >>>> While I do not have much experience with this kind of programming, I've >>>> at least encountered Simulink and Grafcet. >>>> >>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW> >>> >>> You can see here how the code looks, it is a box graphic: >>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW#/media/ >>> File:Labview_code_example.png> >>> >>> >>> Despite the name, it is not only for use in labs, we did production >>> code for factories. >> >> Ah yes, definitely heard of it, although I think I've never used it >> myself. > > If it can run a gas chromatograph machine it > can run a giant production reactor for making > polyethylene. LabView had a pretty good rep > and I have heard of it being used for "factory > stuff" as well. > > Old old days, banks of clickey relays and analog > I/O. Then transistors. Now, software & digital. > Tomorrow, digital 'AI' and humans will be mostly > out of the loop. The hurdle was that we were using Windows 95, and it could crash. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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