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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #33479 > unrolled thread

Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64

Started byRobert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com>
First post2021-10-30 23:21 -0500
Last post2021-11-05 09:09 +0000
Articles 8 on this page of 28 — 10 participants

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  Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2021-10-30 23:21 -0500
    Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> - 2021-11-01 06:56 +0000
    Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-11-01 09:44 +0200
      Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-11-01 23:14 +0100
        Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-11-03 10:33 +0200
          Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-03 10:36 +0000
            Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2021-11-03 20:34 +0100
              Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-11-03 14:14 -0600
                Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2021-11-04 03:21 +0000
                Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2021-11-04 03:28 +0000
              Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:03 +0000
                Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2021-11-04 07:07 -0500
                  Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 15:54 +0000
                    Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2021-11-04 13:41 -0500
                      Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@personalprojects.net> - 2021-11-04 14:54 -0400
                        Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2021-11-04 20:00 +0100
                          Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2021-11-04 20:04 +0100
                            Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@personalprojects.net> - 2021-11-04 16:36 -0400
                      Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 19:25 +0000
                        Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 19:33 +0000
                      Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-11-05 14:09 +0200
                        Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-05 14:15 +0000
                          Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2021-11-05 13:01 -0500
                        Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2021-11-05 13:01 -0500
                    Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2021-11-04 19:52 +0100
                      Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2021-11-04 18:24 -0500
                        Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2021-11-05 08:02 +0100
                          Re: Linux "native" Virtualization: ARM64 vs x86_64 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-05 09:09 +0000

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#33585

FromAnssi Saari <as@sci.fi>
Date2021-11-05 14:09 +0200
Message-ID<sm0fssax0q4.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>
In reply to#33562
Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> writes:

> I'm actually hoping a x86_64 emulator already exists for ARM.  I guess *worst 
> case* I could build a x86_64 cross-compiler hosted on ARM.  

Why is that the worst case? I've done cross compilation to MIPS and ARM
a couple of times but not recently. Cross compilation was fine, mostly
the problems I had were some software packages using build systems like
the common Autotools in a way that was not compatible with cross
compilation and required some fiddling. Or even a lot of fiddling.

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#33588

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-11-05 14:15 +0000
Message-ID<sm3e9g$v2e$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33585
On 05/11/2021 12:09, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> writes:
> 
>> I'm actually hoping a x86_64 emulator already exists for ARM.  I guess *worst
>> case* I could build a x86_64 cross-compiler hosted on ARM.
> 
> Why is that the worst case? I've done cross compilation to MIPS and ARM
> a couple of times but not recently. Cross compilation was fine, mostly
> the problems I had were some software packages using build systems like
> the common Autotools in a way that was not compatible with cross
> compilation and required some fiddling. Or even a lot of fiddling.
> 
I cant understand why, if you want an x86 target, you don't just grab a 
second-hand WINPC and bang Linux on it, and cross mount a source 
directory and compile on it using the command line - no need even for 
screen and keyboard

My Pi code was all prototyped on a fast compiling x86 machine prior to 
mounting the source directory on the pi and then typing "make clean; make;"
Cross compiling works, but is a lot easier to have the right CPU and 
libraries handy for a target to compile and test upon.

-- 
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over 
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that 
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

  Frédéric Bastiat

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#33594

FromRobert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com>
Date2021-11-05 13:01 -0500
Message-ID<h7Odnew0BNfw7Bj8nZ2dnUU7-XHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#33588
At Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:15:12 +0000 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> 
> On 05/11/2021 12:09, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> writes:
> > 
> >> I'm actually hoping a x86_64 emulator already exists for ARM.  I guess *worst
> >> case* I could build a x86_64 cross-compiler hosted on ARM.
> > 
> > Why is that the worst case? I've done cross compilation to MIPS and ARM
> > a couple of times but not recently. Cross compilation was fine, mostly
> > the problems I had were some software packages using build systems like
> > the common Autotools in a way that was not compatible with cross
> > compilation and required some fiddling. Or even a lot of fiddling.
> > 
> I cant understand why, if you want an x86 target, you don't just grab a 
> second-hand WINPC and bang Linux on it, and cross mount a source 
> directory and compile on it using the command line - no need even for 
> screen and keyboard

It is another piece of hardware to maintain...  (I do everything from the 
command line and all of my build boxen are headless.)  I am also getting fed 
up with Intel and AMD processors and corresponding motherboard chipsets and I 
really at the end of the line with laptops.

> 
> My Pi code was all prototyped on a fast compiling x86 machine prior to 
> mounting the source directory on the pi and then typing "make clean; make;"
> Cross compiling works, but is a lot easier to have the right CPU and 
> libraries handy for a target to compile and test upon.
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
        

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#33593

FromRobert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com>
Date2021-11-05 13:01 -0500
Message-ID<O76dnZcQjNHw7Bj8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#33585
At Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:09:55 +0200 Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:

> 
> Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> writes:
> 
> > I'm actually hoping a x86_64 emulator already exists for ARM.  I guess *worst 
> > case* I could build a x86_64 cross-compiler hosted on ARM.  
> 
> Why is that the worst case? I've done cross compilation to MIPS and ARM
> a couple of times but not recently. Cross compilation was fine, mostly
> the problems I had were some software packages using build systems like
> the common Autotools in a way that was not compatible with cross
> compilation and required some fiddling. Or even a lot of fiddling.

Cross compiling to a target *OS*, as opposed to a micro-controller (which has
no bare-metal O/S), can be "interesting", since the build environment is not
quite the same as the target. And compiling gcc/g++ cross-compiler can take a
long time (well building an embeded ARMv7 target on an ARMv7 linux host took
like 72 hours and pushed close to the 1G RAM on a Pi3).  And yes, the 
Autotools are fiddly when cross building (at least for a MS-Windows target).  
My build infrastructure is not really cleanly set up from cross-building to a 
Linux target on a Linux host -- I suspect some fiddling with the 
autoconf/aclocal/automake stuff would be needed, esp. since the 
cross-compiling test assumes MS-Windows target on a Linux host.

>                                                                                                                     
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                            

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#33563

FromPascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
Date2021-11-04 19:52 +0100
Message-ID<61842c06$0$6461$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#33560
Le 04/11/2021 à 16:54, The Natural Philosopher a écrit :
> On 04/11/2021 12:07, Robert Heller wrote:
> 
>> I am not really interested performance -- My only interest in emulating x86 on
>> aarch64 (64-bit ARM) is as a "build box" -- if it takes hours to compile, so
>> what...

Do you really need an x86 platform to compile for x86 target ? What 
about cross-compilers ?

> Ahh..ok. Have fun writing an ARM RISC=>x86 CISC interpreter...

Doesn't QEMU already do this ?

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#33573

FromRobert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com>
Date2021-11-04 18:24 -0500
Message-ID<W5ednZV0muc29hn8nZ2dnUU7-LHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#33563
At Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:52:54 +0100 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote:

> 
> Le 04/11/2021 à 16:54, The Natural Philosopher a écrit :
> > On 04/11/2021 12:07, Robert Heller wrote:
> > 
> >> I am not really interested performance -- My only interest in emulating x86 on
> >> aarch64 (64-bit ARM) is as a "build box" -- if it takes hours to compile, so
> >> what...
> 
> Do you really need an x86 platform to compile for x86 target ? What 
> about cross-compilers ?

I might want to do basic tests to be sure the binaries actually run under x86 
Linuxes

> 
> > Ahh..ok. Have fun writing an ARM RISC=>x86 CISC interpreter...
> 
> Doesn't QEMU already do this ?
> 
>                                     
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                    

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#33578

FromPascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
Date2021-11-05 08:02 +0100
Message-ID<6184d6f8$0$6446$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#33573
Le 05/11/2021 à 00:24, Robert Heller a écrit :
> At Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:52:54 +0100 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote:
> 
>>> On 04/11/2021 12:07, Robert Heller wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am not really interested performance -- My only interest in emulating x86 on
>>>> aarch64 (64-bit ARM) is as a "build box" -- if it takes hours to compile, so
>>>> what...
>>
>> Do you really need an x86 platform to compile for x86 target ? What
>> about cross-compilers ?
> 
> I might want to do basic tests to be sure the binaries actually run under x86
> Linuxes

It seems that QEMU can transparently run foreign binaries (qemu-user). 
So you could build them efficiently with a cross-compiler and test them 
with QEMU.

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#33582

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-11-05 09:09 +0000
Message-ID<sm2sc2$mq0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33578
On 05/11/2021 07:02, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Le 05/11/2021 à 00:24, Robert Heller a écrit :
>> At Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:52:54 +0100 Pascal Hambourg 
>> <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 04/11/2021 12:07, Robert Heller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am not really interested performance -- My only interest in 
>>>>> emulating x86 on
>>>>> aarch64 (64-bit ARM) is as a "build box" -- if it takes hours to 
>>>>> compile, so
>>>>> what...
>>>
>>> Do you really need an x86 platform to compile for x86 target ? What
>>> about cross-compilers ?
>>
>> I might want to do basic tests to be sure the binaries actually run 
>> under x86
>> Linuxes
> 
> It seems that QEMU can transparently run foreign binaries (qemu-user). 
> So you could build them efficiently with a cross-compiler and test them 
> with QEMU.

When I tried to boot DOS on QEMU on a power PC I gave up after an hour...

-- 
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight 
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

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