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Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS

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  Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-10 00:21 -0500
    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-09 21:38 -0800
      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-10 20:46 -0500
        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-10 18:42 -0800
          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-11 20:22 -0500
            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-11 20:38 -0800
              Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-12 23:45 -0500
                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-12 22:00 -0800
                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-14 23:09 -0500
                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-14 21:08 -0800
                      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-15 13:05 -0500
                        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-20 09:30 +0000
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-20 12:43 -0500
                      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-17 01:23 -0500
                        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2021-11-17 14:25 +0100
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-20 01:17 -0500
                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2021-11-16 12:02 +0000
                      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2021-11-16 13:39 -0500
                      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-16 16:19 -0500
                        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-17 01:29 -0500
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-17 17:28 +0000
                            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-18 07:57 +0000
                            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-20 00:14 -0500
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-17 13:20 -0500
                            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-17 11:26 -0800
                              Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-20 00:41 -0500
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-20 09:38 +0000
                        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2021-11-18 10:02 +0000
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-18 12:09 -0500
                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-13 08:22 +0000
                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-13 19:51 +0000
                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-13 12:40 -0800
            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-12 16:12 +0000
              Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-12 17:57 +0000
                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-12 19:41 +0000
                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-13 11:06 +0000
                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-13 11:53 +0000
                      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-13 15:14 +0000
                        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2021-11-14 15:25 +0000
                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-20 09:13 +0000
                            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2021-11-20 15:38 +0000
                              Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-21 09:04 +0000
                                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-21 12:38 -0500
                                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2021-11-26 09:02 +0000
                                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-26 11:46 +0000
                                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-27 00:21 -0500
                                      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-27 09:33 +0000
                                        Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-27 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-27 10:07 +0000
                                            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-27 11:27 +0000
                                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-27 09:17 +0000
                                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-27 09:07 +0000
                                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2021-11-21 16:45 +0000
                                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-21 11:22 -0800
                                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS 166p1 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-22 00:43 -0500
                                    Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-27 09:40 +0000
                Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-11-13 10:56 +0000
                  Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-13 11:45 +0000
          Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-12 03:16 -0500
            Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-11-27 09:49 -0800
      Re: Wow - Now Even COL.M - No Posts For DAYS Steve Mysterious <tinker123@gmail.com> - 2021-11-13 18:20 -0800

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#33689

with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
wrote:
> Le 14-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>> with <slrnsovljh.4uv.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>> wrote:
>>> Le 13-11-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a
>>> écrit :
>>>> On 13/11/2021 11:06, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>>>>> The claim is it can be something like 60 times faster to use the
>>>>> GUI than to edit config files. So for this claim, I want examples.
*SKIP*
>>>> Clicking and dragging an icon is a lot faster than finding the
>>>> config file and editing it :-)
>>> It depends. And it certainly doesn't takes hours. So it's not a good
>>> example whatever.
*SKIP*
>> You (tnp@...) are talking about what on that other side of The GUI
>> Wall can be achieved with applying menus and dialogs (with assorted
>> buttons, lists, and whatnot) only.  Thus, incoming newsflash, nobody
>> here applies ls(1) by editing configs.  Or cat(1).  Or grep(1).  This
>> list goes on and on then reaches awk, perl, and python or whatever.
>> Some of these things don't even have config (those things keep their
>> configurations in the environment).
> Yes, and my point is not about which one must be chosen. Each one do
> as he wants. My point is, if something which takes minutes with a GUI
> would need hours to be done in CLI, I'd like to know what it is.

And I'm glad to oblige.  May I introduce about:config (and friends) to
this discussion?  Sure, it's not on scale minutes vs hours but still.
Thus it goes like this.  Spend 3..5 min and find out there isn't
anything you can do.  Or waste hours searching through text and binary
files, documentation (so to speak), then internet noise, then sources
and still can't make the thing do what you want.  Does this count?

-- 
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

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#33690

Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
> wrote:
>> Yes, and my point is not about which one must be chosen. Each one do
>> as he wants. My point is, if something which takes minutes with a GUI
>> would need hours to be done in CLI, I'd like to know what it is.
>
> And I'm glad to oblige.  May I introduce about:config (and friends) to
> this discussion?  Sure, it's not on scale minutes vs hours but still.
> Thus it goes like this.  Spend 3..5 min and find out there isn't
> anything you can do.  Or waste hours searching through text and binary
> files, documentation (so to speak), then internet noise, then sources
> and still can't make the thing do what you want.  Does this count?

I'm not sure I understand. If you are telling me you have to learn
everything before using any config file when you master the GUI, it's
not telling a lot. It's like saying programming in C is easier than
programming in python because you no C and you don't know python. Or
it's the same as telling it's faster to go two miles by foot than by car
because you are unable to start your car. It's not information.

I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
which I have already an opinion. I want an example which can makes me
learn something. It looks like nobody understand what an example is, so
I'll provide some.

I have a directory with thousand files all mixed up, I want to put every
picture in a directory and every pdf in another directory.

I want to test a tool without interfering with my other tools. So I want
to test it in a new VM. I need to create a VM, install my distro on it
and test the tool.

I took thousand pictures on my last vacation, they are too big, so I
want to resize them.

That are examples, not my personal life. What example can you provide
me which will make me conclude that the solution is really faster by GUI
than by CLI. I don't care if you are more confident with the GUI than
with the CLI: you keep using your GUI and it's fine with me.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33691

On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>> wrote:
>>> Yes, and my point is not about which one must be chosen. Each one do
>>> as he wants. My point is, if something which takes minutes with a GUI
>>> would need hours to be done in CLI, I'd like to know what it is.
>>
>> And I'm glad to oblige.  May I introduce about:config (and friends) to
>> this discussion?  Sure, it's not on scale minutes vs hours but still.
>> Thus it goes like this.  Spend 3..5 min and find out there isn't
>> anything you can do.  Or waste hours searching through text and binary
>> files, documentation (so to speak), then internet noise, then sources
>> and still can't make the thing do what you want.  Does this count?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand. If you are telling me you have to learn
> everything before using any config file when you master the GUI, it's
> not telling a lot. It's like saying programming in C is easier than
> programming in python because you no C and you don't know python. Or
> it's the same as telling it's faster to go two miles by foot than by car
> because you are unable to start your car. It's not information.
 >
> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI


   OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set
   up a RAID6 array. Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird
   params you could literally spend and hour researching. I did this
   about a year ago on a Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky
   setting after funky setting and you're never quite sure if you
   got it all right.

   Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows
   all the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows
   (and will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might
   want to pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes
   adjustments if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the
   button. All over in literally five minutes.

   I would say that's a very good example of how a GUI can pull lots
   of various bits together in an easy-to-understand/use fashion.


> which I have already an opinion. I want an example which can makes me
> learn something. It looks like nobody understand what an example is, so
> I'll provide some.
> 
> I have a directory with thousand files all mixed up, I want to put every
> picture in a directory and every pdf in another directory.
> 
> I want to test a tool without interfering with my other tools. So I want
> to test it in a new VM. I need to create a VM, install my distro on it
> and test the tool.
> 
> I took thousand pictures on my last vacation, they are too big, so I
> want to resize them.
> 
> That are examples, not my personal life. What example can you provide
> me which will make me conclude that the solution is really faster by GUI
> than by CLI. I don't care if you are more confident with the GUI than
> with the CLI: you keep using your GUI and it's fine with me.
> 

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#33719

with <vZqdnXVFfOGpGQf8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> 166p1 wrote:
> On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>> wrote:

*SKIP*
>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI

Your request can't be fullfilled.  See below.

> OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set up
> a RAID6 array.

I'm aware of existance of this technology(TM).  However, it doesn't have
any value *for me*.  Thus, I'm not wasting time for leisure purposes.

> Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird params you could
> literally spend and hour researching. I did this about a year ago on a
> Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky setting after funky setting
> and you're never quite sure if you got it all right.

Because of above mentioned lack of value, I can't judge personaly what
that means.  But, I see, it's impressive.  At least for you.

However, it should be mentioned, somehow I doubt it would impress me.

> Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows all
> the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows (and
> will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might want to
> pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes adjustments
> if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the button. All over
> in literally five minutes.

And now I have an epiphany to regurgitate, thank you very much.  Here it
comes.

Gui-people and termianl-people (it's not exactly like this, but it's
clearest separation I can make on spot;  config-people?) are two
distinct tribes (or religions, if I may).

Terminal-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
reasons).  But environment they've got isn't perfect.  What leads to
correcting configs, looking and asking for (and eventual reading)
documentation, digging up configs and tools, and then accepting
marginally satisfing state of one component of The Perfect Environment.
Then something changes deep inside and all that house of cards falls
apart.  However it should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal
utility are produced.

Gui-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
reasons).  But environment they stumble at at first isn't perfect.  What
leads to checking buttons, fiddling with gauges, looking and asking for
opinions, and digging up alternative environments.  Then one day comes
realization that this one isn't The Perfect Environment anymore (because
it's too lively (and goes weird) or dies).  Time has come to declare
something else The Perfect Environment (at least for now).  However it
should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal utility are selected
and otherwise exposed (to terminal-people).

Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
been realized yet).

*CUT*

-- 
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

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#33720

On 26/11/2021 09:02, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
> of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
> no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
> been realized yet).

When I drive a manual, I double de clutch and learn to heel and toe. And 
use the clutch for inching when parking.

When I drive an auto, I learn to left foot brake to foll the box into 
downshifts. And use the brake for inching when parking.

Does anyone actually care?
-- 
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah 
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

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#33728

On 11/26/21 4:02 AM, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <vZqdnXVFfOGpGQf8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> 166p1 wrote:
>> On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>>> wrote:
> 
> *SKIP*
>>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
> 
> Your request can't be fullfilled.  See below.
> 
>> OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set up
>> a RAID6 array.
> 
> I'm aware of existance of this technology(TM).  However, it doesn't have
> any value *for me*.  Thus, I'm not wasting time for leisure purposes.
> 
>> Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird params you could
>> literally spend and hour researching. I did this about a year ago on a
>> Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky setting after funky setting
>> and you're never quite sure if you got it all right.
> 
> Because of above mentioned lack of value, I can't judge personaly what
> that means.  But, I see, it's impressive.  At least for you.
> 
> However, it should be mentioned, somehow I doubt it would impress me.
> 
>> Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows all
>> the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows (and
>> will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might want to
>> pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes adjustments
>> if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the button. All over
>> in literally five minutes.
> 
> And now I have an epiphany to regurgitate, thank you very much.  Here it
> comes.
> 
> Gui-people and termianl-people (it's not exactly like this, but it's
> clearest separation I can make on spot;  config-people?) are two
> distinct tribes (or religions, if I may).


   I'm an atheist here ... each approach is good for what
   it's good for. Sometimes CL is indicated, sometimes a
   GUI is a lot faster/better.

   'C' has its place, Python has its place. BASH scripts
   have their place. Sometimes FORTRAN has its place. I
   often use FP/Lazarus for GUI apps because GTK/QT are
   just awful. I've converted Python apps to BASH and
   vice-versa because of need or sheer simplicity.

   In short, it's better to be utilitarian rather than
   'religious' in this sphere.

   Some of the older crowd (which technically includes me)
   are "Command-Line Forever" and claim you're supposed to
   suffer that approach for, well, for SOME reason. The
   young GUI crowd will diss them - but often have NO idea
   what to do if the GUI can't quite do it for them. Alas
   I sometimes suspect that the CL-Forever group sticks
   with that for job security ... 10 hours of magic incantations
   rather than 10 minutes worth of GUI almost anybody can
   understand - until their pointy-haired bosses catch on and
   fire their asses for wasting time ..........

   Now the DEEP people - those who work on kernals and such -
   the ones who produce those 25 options for CL commands -
   I give them the greatest respect. They don't Google
   the answers, Google taps THEM for the answers. It's a
   whole other level of understanding, the nuts and bolts.

> Terminal-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
> reasons).  But environment they've got isn't perfect.  What leads to
> correcting configs, looking and asking for (and eventual reading)
> documentation, digging up configs and tools, and then accepting
> marginally satisfing state of one component of The Perfect Environment.
> Then something changes deep inside and all that house of cards falls
> apart.  However it should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal
> utility are produced.
> 
> Gui-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
> reasons).  But environment they stumble at at first isn't perfect.  What
> leads to checking buttons, fiddling with gauges, looking and asking for
> opinions, and digging up alternative environments.  Then one day comes
> realization that this one isn't The Perfect Environment anymore (because
> it's too lively (and goes weird) or dies).  Time has come to declare
> something else The Perfect Environment (at least for now).  However it
> should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal utility are selected
> and otherwise exposed (to terminal-people).
> 
> Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
> of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
> no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
> been realized yet).
> 
> *CUT*
> 

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#33731

Le 27-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>
>    I'm an atheist here ... each approach is good for what
>    it's good for. Sometimes CL is indicated, sometimes a
>    GUI is a lot faster/better.

It was your first claim, I asked you for an example, but all I get was
to use the GUI when you don't master the CLI. It's a good reason to fall
back on the GUI, but that's all.

>    Some of the older crowd (which technically includes me)
>    are "Command-Line Forever" 

I don't believe it.

>    and claim you're supposed to suffer that approach for, 

There are nothing to suffer. There are things to learn. And once
learned, it's more efficient. It's not the same thing.

>    I sometimes suspect that the CL-Forever group sticks
>    with that for job security ... 10 hours of magic incantations
>    rather than 10 minutes worth of GUI almost anybody can
>    understand - until their pointy-haired bosses catch on and
>    fire their asses for wasting time ..........

That's nonsense. You where unable to provide me an example which could
be accomplished in minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
CLI. All you were able to provide is an example in which you are not
confident with a CLI. What took you minutes with a GUI and who would
take you hours with a CLI would take seconds for someone who masters the
CLI.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33732

On 27/11/2021 09:33, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>   minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
> CLI.
well one thing is the ability to select a subset of files and move them 
to a new directory or delete them without there being an obvious pattern 
match, that find or grep  etc would be able to match

-- 
  “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader, 
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say, 
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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#33734

Le 27-11-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> On 27/11/2021 09:33, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>   minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
>> CLI.
> well one thing is the ability to select a subset of files and move them 
> to a new directory or delete them without there being an obvious pattern 
> match, that find or grep  etc would be able to match

OK, that can be faster, but it would not request hours. With the
autocomplete key it's fast to choose the files you want on the command
line.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33735

On 27/11/2021 10:07, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 27-11-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> On 27/11/2021 09:33, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>    minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
>>> CLI.
>> well one thing is the ability to select a subset of files and move them
>> to a new directory or delete them without there being an obvious pattern
>> match, that find or grep  etc would be able to match
> 
> OK, that can be faster, but it would not request hours. With the
> autocomplete key it's fast to choose the files you want on the command
> line.
> 
No, it isn't. At the leasts it's highly convenient to have two console 
windows one displaying the list of what is there and another to perform 
commands in.
In fact I switch fairly seamlessly between GUI and console for many 
tasks - GUI is much faster to find files, but editing,  as root, needs a 
root console or it gets complicated with continuous need to enter sudo 
passwords etc.
There is no 'best' - its all dependent on circumstances extant at the time.
I am glad I am fluent in both.


-- 
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They 
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

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#33730

Le 26-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
> with <vZqdnXVFfOGpGQf8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> 166p1 wrote:
>> On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>>> wrote:
>
> *SKIP*
>>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
>
> Your request can't be fullfilled.  See below.

Yes, I realise it.

> Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
> of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
> no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
> been realized yet).

It's not religious, I have nothing against the GUI, I'm using one
myself. But I was looking for example of things really faster on GUI
than on CLI. Which mean someone who is confident in both ways can provide
me an example of something really more effective on the GUI. But all I
have are people who don't know the CLI and so have to fall back on the
GUI because that's the only way for them to achieve their purpose. There
is nothing wrong with it for me. It's just I won't find a real example.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33729

Le 21-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>
>    OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set
>    up a RAID6 array. Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird
>    params you could literally spend and hour researching. I did this
>    about a year ago on a Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky
>    setting after funky setting and you're never quite sure if you
>    got it all right.

Don't write "you", write "I". Because the fact you are not confident
with the command line doesn't imply I am not confident.

>    Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows
>    all the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows
>    (and will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might
>    want to pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes
>    adjustments if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the
>    button. All over in literally five minutes.
>
>    I would say that's a very good example of how a GUI can pull lots
>    of various bits together in an easy-to-understand/use fashion.

It's a good example of something you don't know. So the GUI gave you a
way to do something you wouldn't be able to do without understanding
what you do. It's OK, you are right to do some things the easy way.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33692

with <slrnspk2sp.1am.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
wrote:
> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>> wrote:

>>> Yes, and my point is not about which one must be chosen. Each one do
>>> as he wants. My point is, if something which takes minutes with a
>>> GUI would need hours to be done in CLI, I'd like to know what it is.
>> And I'm glad to oblige.  May I introduce about:config (and friends)
>> to this discussion?  Sure, it's not on scale minutes vs hours but
>> still.  Thus it goes like this.  Spend 3..5 min and find out there
>> isn't anything you can do.  Or waste hours searching through text and
>> binary files, documentation (so to speak), then internet noise, then
>> sources and still can't make the thing do what you want.  Does this
>> count?
> I'm not sure I understand.
*SKIP*

I don't interpret it as misunderstanding, more like misreading, but see
below.

> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
> which I have already an opinion. I want an example which can makes me
> learn something. It looks like nobody understand what an example is,
> so I'll provide some.

And rightfully so.  Unfortunately, GUI-people don't keep up with this
discussion.

> I have a directory with thousand files all mixed up, I want to put
> every picture in a directory and every pdf in another directory.

Did it.  Scripting rules.

> I want to test a tool without interfering with my other tools. So I
> want to test it in a new VM. I need to create a VM, install my distro
> on it and test the tool.

Can't say.  chroot(8) is enough for me.

> I took thousand pictures on my last vacation, they are too big, so I
> want to resize them.

Did it.  Unfortunetely, imagemagick hadn't been up to task.  Will return
to it later.

> That are examples, not my personal life. What example can you provide
> me which will make me conclude that the solution is really faster by
> GUI than by CLI. I don't care if you are more confident with the GUI
> than with the CLI: you keep using your GUI and it's fine with me.

I understand your frustration.  But you have to understand, on *this*
side of The GUI Wall there aren't any success stories.

And GUI-people are absent from this discussion.  May be because it's by
design.  C'mon GUI-people, sure you can do better -- fight for your
cause.

-- 
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

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#33694

On 11/21/21 08:45, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <slrnspk2sp.1am.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
> wrote:
>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>> wrote:
> 
>>>> Yes, and my point is not about which one must be chosen. Each one do
>>>> as he wants. My point is, if something which takes minutes with a
>>>> GUI would need hours to be done in CLI, I'd like to know what it is.
>>> And I'm glad to oblige.  May I introduce about:config (and friends)
>>> to this discussion?  Sure, it's not on scale minutes vs hours but
>>> still.  Thus it goes like this.  Spend 3..5 min and find out there
>>> isn't anything you can do.  Or waste hours searching through text and
>>> binary files, documentation (so to speak), then internet noise, then
>>> sources and still can't make the thing do what you want.  Does this
>>> count?
>> I'm not sure I understand.
> *SKIP*
> 
> I don't interpret it as misunderstanding, more like misreading, but see
> below.
> 
>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
>> which I have already an opinion. I want an example which can makes me
>> learn something. It looks like nobody understand what an example is,
>> so I'll provide some.
> 
> And rightfully so.  Unfortunately, GUI-people don't keep up with this
> discussion.
> 
>> I have a directory with thousand files all mixed up, I want to put
>> every picture in a directory and every pdf in another directory.
> 
> Did it.  Scripting rules.
> 
>> I want to test a tool without interfering with my other tools. So I
>> want to test it in a new VM. I need to create a VM, install my distro
>> on it and test the tool.
> 
> Can't say.  chroot(8) is enough for me.
> 
>> I took thousand pictures on my last vacation, they are too big, so I
>> want to resize them.
> 
> Did it.  Unfortunetely, imagemagick hadn't been up to task.  Will return
> to it later.
> 
>> That are examples, not my personal life. What example can you provide
>> me which will make me conclude that the solution is really faster by
>> GUI than by CLI. I don't care if you are more confident with the GUI
>> than with the CLI: you keep using your GUI and it's fine with me.
> 
> I understand your frustration.  But you have to understand, on *this*
> side of The GUI Wall there aren't any success stories.
> 
> And GUI-people are absent from this discussion.  May be because it's by
> design.  C'mon GUI-people, sure you can do better -- fight for your
> cause.
> 
	Well I am a bit behind in photo sorting but I created directories for 
my downloaded documents from the git-go.  I added
a specific directory in /home/bliss/Manga/.  The PDFs go under 
categories for /Documents, /LinuxPro Magazine, /PCLinux magazine, 
Hardware/ and even one no longer on /home/bliss/ for Linux Advice.  All
these except Manga which I consider a special class are in /Documents. 
In /Downloads I have many sub-directories for each of the many 
distributions I am downloading for the LUG to keep their library up to 
date.  I move the stuff to a small portable drive to carry to in-person 
meetings if we ever have them again.
	I have tried to give up that job but no one else wants it up to
this time.

  That will be about all I can manage to carry to meetings at 84.
  So that is what I do about that specific problem is start sorting as
early as you realize you are accumulating stuff.  But I started this
stuff about 40 years ago on the Amiga.  Before that I was trained a
bit in administrative stuff and created systems of document filing
with just paper and the Alphabet and the Calendar.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
              and a minor case of hypergraphia

-- 
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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#33701

On 11/21/21 11:45 AM, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <slrnspk2sp.1am.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
> wrote:
>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>> wrote:
> 
>>>> Yes, and my point is not about which one must be chosen. Each one do
>>>> as he wants. My point is, if something which takes minutes with a
>>>> GUI would need hours to be done in CLI, I'd like to know what it is.
>>> And I'm glad to oblige.  May I introduce about:config (and friends)
>>> to this discussion?  Sure, it's not on scale minutes vs hours but
>>> still.  Thus it goes like this.  Spend 3..5 min and find out there
>>> isn't anything you can do.  Or waste hours searching through text and
>>> binary files, documentation (so to speak), then internet noise, then
>>> sources and still can't make the thing do what you want.  Does this
>>> count?
>> I'm not sure I understand.
> *SKIP*
> 
> I don't interpret it as misunderstanding, more like misreading, but see
> below.
> 
>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
>> which I have already an opinion. I want an example which can makes me
>> learn something. It looks like nobody understand what an example is,
>> so I'll provide some.
> 
> And rightfully so.  Unfortunately, GUI-people don't keep up with this
> discussion.

   I provided a good example of where a GUI can
   cut hours off of a CL task.

   Oh, and you can batch-process images with GIMP.

   Sometimes the CLI is best, sometimes the GUI is a lot
   better. It's not an either/or situation in Linux.

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#33733

Le 22-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
> On 11/21/21 11:45 AM, Eric Pozharski wrote:
>> 
>> And rightfully so.  Unfortunately, GUI-people don't keep up with this
>> discussion.
>
>    I provided a good example of where a GUI can
>    cut hours off of a CL task.

No you provided a good example of what would take *you* hours and let
you believe it would take *anyone* hours. But it's wrong. It would take
minutes for the first time and seconds the other times, because it would
be scripted, for someone who manage the CLI.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33633

Le 12-11-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> On 12/11/2021 16:12, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 12-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>>>     GUI tools can accomplish in minutes what would take hours to do in
>>>     tweaking dozens of config files with a text editor
>> 
>> Do you have an example of task better handled by a GUI than by a text
>> editor or by the command line?
>
> Well 3D CAD is a bit hard on a command line. In fact even 2D cad is.
> Heck even code editing benefits from highlighting and section collapsing
> I use whichever works better, frankly.

It's about to change config files, so the purpose is not to use an
application but to configure it. Nobody claims it's easier to change a
config file to use an application than to launch it.

> In general since my GUI don't run as root, I do rootish things in a root 
> console
>
> But the heavy lifting is done in a GUI

That's what it's about. So, you prefer to use a GUI, it's your choice, I
have nothing against that.

But the claim is something you can do in minutes with the GUI would take
hours on the command line or with editing config files. So I want
examples for the claim. Not example for something unrelated.

> i,.e. source editing - than use a terminal to run 'make' and a 'sudo 
> make install' to get the binaries in place.

The GUI is unrelated with the need to use a terminal to run make and
make install. You can run it inside your text editor.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33636

On 13/11/2021 10:56, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> But the claim is something you can do in minutes with the GUI would take
> hours on the command line or with editing config files. So I want
> examples for the claim. Not example for something unrelated.

Well some of the more complex files that exist are easier to edit on a 
GUI editor.

I go to geany for big files with long lines - but its no big deal

I just don't buy the religious purity of the command line. That's where 
I started, I am comfortable there, but I am also comfortable with a well 
designed text editor like Geany.


-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#33624

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:42:36 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
> On 11/10/21 17:46, 166p1 wrote:
>> On 11/10/21 12:38 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
>>    Unfortunately, still a fairly common - and vexing -
>>    problem. Lots of reasons it can happen, and again
>>    it takes a certain amount of give and take to
>>    hopefully find a solution beyond "wipe the install
>>    and start over" (the MS favorite "solution" - great
>>    if you've got nothing but built-in MS software in
>>    there ...).
>>    I had a similar annoying issue recently on an MX
>>    with LXDE and XFCE in there - the screen brightness
>>    would go very dark partway through boot and none
>>    of the GUI controls would "stick". Finally had to
>>    kind of brute-force it by re-writing an obscure
>>    lowish-level config file every time during boot,
>>    replacing the defective default being set
>>    *somewhere*.
>>    The underlying system is still fairly simple, but
>>    the GUI stuff is huge now, convoluted, lots of
>>    interactions.
>
> 	Yes but without the GUI er, Desktop Environment people
> such as myself would have to really work hard to learn to use
> Linux. I am 84.25 yoa and not really capable of that effort
> except on a piece-meal solve a particular problem.

In my opinion that does not depend on age but prior computer experience.

OK, I was in my 30s when I was "forced" to start on the bare command line
in Linux due to hardware constrains (400 MB free on my "massive 1300 MB
(that is MEGA folks, not GIGA) hard disk after the Windows 95
installation). Today I am happy about that I had to deal with the
Linux-command line right from the start.
-- 
Andreas

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#33738

On 11/12/21 00:16, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:42:36 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>> On 11/10/21 17:46, 166p1 wrote:
>>> On 11/10/21 12:38 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>>     Unfortunately, still a fairly common - and vexing -
>>>     problem. Lots of reasons it can happen, and again
>>>     it takes a certain amount of give and take to
>>>     hopefully find a solution beyond "wipe the install
>>>     and start over" (the MS favorite "solution" - great
>>>     if you've got nothing but built-in MS software in
>>>     there ...).
>>>     I had a similar annoying issue recently on an MX
>>>     with LXDE and XFCE in there - the screen brightness
>>>     would go very dark partway through boot and none
>>>     of the GUI controls would "stick". Finally had to
>>>     kind of brute-force it by re-writing an obscure
>>>     lowish-level config file every time during boot,
>>>     replacing the defective default being set
>>>     *somewhere*.
>>>     The underlying system is still fairly simple, but
>>>     the GUI stuff is huge now, convoluted, lots of
>>>     interactions.
>>
>> 	Yes but without the GUI er, Desktop Environment people
>> such as myself would have to really work hard to learn to use
>> Linux. I am 84.25 yoa and not really capable of that effort
>> except on a piece-meal solve a particular problem.
> 
> In my opinion that does not depend on age but prior computer experience.
> 
> OK, I was in my 30s when I was "forced" to start on the bare command line
> in Linux due to hardware constrains (400 MB free on my "massive 1300 MB
> (that is MEGA folks, not GIGA) hard disk after the Windows 95
> installation). Today I am happy about that I had to deal with the
> Linux-command line right from the start.
> 
	And I was in my 40s when I bought my Commodore 64 a few years older for 
the Commodore 64/128.  On the first I learned to do formatting
codes for the text I was writing in Paper Clip.  On the 128 I learned
about CPM and got addicted to roguelike adventure games.  I learned 
about GEOS which was too slow even from the 512 KB ram disk.  Then I
got an Amiga 1000 used and added a expansion box and got a hard disk.
On the Amiga my ourput increased due to the GUI and I learned enough
about CLI on the Amiga to format diskettes and copy Disks of the Month
for the A/CWest UGs doing them 4 at a time.
	In about 2005 I got my first laptop which came with XP and which
was usable but very slow so I moved on to Mandriva with which i was able
to set up KDE to resemble an Amiga Workbench and use Dolphin as an 
addictional two panel File Manager which as SID 1.3 and 2.0 I had
learned to use on the Amiga.  I also used Midnight Commander to explore
the file tree  Now 18 years later I am using PCLinuxOS to do my 
computing, I do a column for a mid-West UG and try to maintain a
library for the SF-LUG.  Sadly when I was still in my 40s I had and
infection that resulted in refractory Post Virual Fatigue syndrome with
the associated Brain Fog.  So when I say learning all the the Terminal
commands that might be useful to me I am not kidding.  I got it when
i was moving he Amiga from Dialup BBSes to the internet and could not
begin to understand the configuration file on the IP/TP Stack.  I had
to buy a copy of Miami with a Gui configuration.  If I overexercise
like walking twice around a block I suffer Brain Fog to some extent.
I have given up Roguelike games because I have better(?) things to
do with my time.  Also when BF is strong I cannot remember to keep
my characters alive.
	So GUI very useful for someone in my condition but also
use a few simple CLI commands to help me administer my machines.
[bliss *.* ~]$ uname -a
Linux 5.15.5-pclos1 #1 SMP Thu Nov 25 12:40:07 CST 2021 x86_64 x86_64 
x86_64 GNU/Linux

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
                 and a minor case of hypergraphia

-- 
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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