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Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger?

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  Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2013-03-22 04:30 +0000
    Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2013-03-21 21:47 -0700
    Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? "Chris F.A. Johnson" <cfajohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 01:08 -0400
    Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2013-03-22 06:57 +0000
      Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 17:03 +0000
        Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> - 2013-03-22 20:42 +0000
          Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair) - 2013-03-25 00:13 +0000
            Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> - 2013-03-25 09:07 +0000
              Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair) - 2013-03-26 00:15 +0000
                Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-26 01:39 +0000
                  Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> - 2013-03-26 08:04 +0000
                    Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> - 2013-03-26 08:02 +0000
                  Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair) - 2013-03-27 00:17 +0000
    Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-03-22 16:48 +0000
      Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-03-22 12:41 -0500
        Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2013-03-23 03:56 +0000
      Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2013-03-23 04:04 +0000
        Re: Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-03-23 14:13 +0000

#7535 — Is there an intra-machine pseudo instant messenger?

Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
server daemon?

I have a situation with multiple users logged in to the same
Linux machine, possibly one on the main console, possibly
multiple others logged in using a VNC X server to a
zero/thin-client 'terminal'.  All X clients for all sessions run
on the same host--they just display to different X servers.  I'd
like a simple way to open an instant-messenger-like text
conversation between users, preferably without having to set up
and configure a server daemon.

Thanks.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#7536

On 2013-03-22, Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote:
> Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
> that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
> preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
> server daemon?

Define "central".

You can run talkd on the server.  It's an extremely tiny daemon with no
real configuration needed, and the talk client is bare bones but
relatively straightforward to use.  Alternatively, you could have users
use the write program, which is definitely not user-friendly but requires
no daemons.

--keith


-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

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#7537

On 2013-03-22, Robert Riches wrote:
> Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
> that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
> preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
> server daemon?
>
> I have a situation with multiple users logged in to the same
> Linux machine, possibly one on the main console, possibly
> multiple others logged in using a VNC X server to a
> zero/thin-client 'terminal'.  All X clients for all sessions run
> on the same host--they just display to different X servers.  I'd
> like a simple way to open an instant-messenger-like text
> conversation between users, preferably without having to set up
> and configure a server daemon.

   There is a Mandriva package, so I expect it's available for other
   distros as well:

TALK(1)                   BSD General Commands Manual                  TALK(1)

NAME
     talk -- talk to another user

SYNOPSIS
     talk person [ttyname]

DESCRIPTION
     Talk is a visual communication program which copies lines from your
     terminal to that of another user.

-- 
   Chris F.A. Johnson, <http://cfajohnson.com>
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

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#7538

In comp.os.linux.misc, Robert Riches  <spamtrap42@verizon.net> wrote:
> I have a situation with multiple users logged in to the same
> Linux machine, possibly one on the main console, possibly
> multiple others logged in using a VNC X server to a
> zero/thin-client 'terminal'.  All X clients for all sessions run
> on the same host--they just display to different X servers.  I'd
> like a simple way to open an instant-messenger-like text
> conversation between users, preferably without having to set up
> and configure a server daemon.

$ ls -l /dev/pts/*
crw--w---- 1 alice    tty  136, 0 Mar 21 23:12 /dev/pts/0
crw--w---- 1 bob      tty  136, 1 Mar 21 23:52 /dev/pts/1
crw--w---- 1 charles  tty  136, 2 Mar 21 23:19 /dev/pts/2
crw--w---- 1 david    tty  136, 3 Mar 21 23:51 /dev/pts/3
$ whoami
david
$ echo "Hello Bob!" >> /dev/pts/1
$ echo "Hello Me!" >> /dev/pts/3
Hello Me!
$ 

The write(1) tool is just a "friendly" wrapper around writing to
some other user's tty.

Elijah
------
$ mesg n

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#7543

>>>>> Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> writes:

[...]

 > The write(1) tool is just a "friendly" wrapper around writing to some
 > other user's tty.

	Yes, but these days, I wouldn't be so sure that J. Remote User
	actually runs a terminal session.

	(I cannot readily recall a write-like program for X, either.)

-- 
FSF associate member #7257

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#7555

On Friday 22 March 2013 17:03 Ivan Shmakov wrote in comp.os.linux.misc:

> Yes, but these days, I wouldn't be so sure that J. Remote User
> actually runs a terminal session.

It's actually a major PITA from a systems POV. No longer can you just "wall" 
all users saying there's a problem or the machine needs a reboot.

Even the "motd" is a pain - once, I wrote a simple QT GUI for linux and a 
colleague did a Windows version, both which pulled motd's from a Postgresql 
database (so it could also drive a web page with archived versions and turn 
each one off automagically when an expired date was passed). These motd guis 
were pooped up modally at logon time.

That was when I had control of the desktops. I don't anymore.

These days, I just run a Wordpress blog with auto Twitter and RSS feeds and 
tell everyone to watch it in the way least inconvenient to them.

They don't of course - but if they complain about some "unannounced" event, 
I quietly point at the blog entry that was posted a week ago :-|



-- 
Tim Watts           Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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#7646

In article <rasu1a-m6i.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> wrote:
(snip)

>These days, I just run a Wordpress blog with auto Twitter and RSS feeds and 
>tell everyone to watch it in the way least inconvenient to them.
>
>They don't of course - but if they complain about some "unannounced" event, 
>I quietly point at the blog entry that was posted a week ago :-|

I'm with your non blog reading users here, and reckon they are quite 
right to complain. Blogs are not communication. :) 
Communication involves information being received as well as sent, not just 
'posted somewhere'. 
You might as well stick a postit note on your computer telling someone their 
 machine will be rebooted in 10 minutes. You have communicated (in a braod 
sense :) ) ... just not with them.

Blogs are a semi private doodle box. That's all. :) :)

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#7653

On Monday 25 March 2013 00:13 Bruce Sinclair wrote in comp.os.linux.misc:

> In article <rasu1a-m6i.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
> <tw+usenet@dionic.net> wrote: (snip)
> 
>>These days, I just run a Wordpress blog with auto Twitter and RSS feeds
>>and tell everyone to watch it in the way least inconvenient to them.
>>
>>They don't of course - but if they complain about some "unannounced"
>>event, I quietly point at the blog entry that was posted a week ago :-|
> 
> I'm with your non blog reading users here, and reckon they are quite
> right to complain. Blogs are not communication. :)
> Communication involves information being received as well as sent, not
> just 'posted somewhere'.
> You might as well stick a postit note on your computer telling someone
> their
>  machine will be rebooted in 10 minutes. You have communicated (in a braod
> sense :) ) ... just not with them.
> 
> Blogs are a semi private doodle box. That's all. :) :)

OK - do you have a better idea?

You are very quick to rubbish an approach when the alternatives seem less 
desireable:

1) Email everything all the time. Yep - tried that. Along with all the other 
"spam" my colleagues get from other sources, they tend to blank it out - as 
do I wtih other messages.

I reserve email for "really important" messages.

2) Force all users to use company managed desktops. That worked at my last 
place, but there, we had a team of 11 programmers - and Linux, Windows and 
MacOSX desktops were very well supported. 

Here, I am running 160 servers, single handed. So 3 flavours of managed 
desktop are out of the question for 60 staff. I might just manage a 
supported linux desktop.

Also, a lot of our users work remotely on laptops which makes support even 
harder.


So - it seems to me that a web based message feed with a couple of other 
feed machanisms are the only viable way - everyone has a browser.



I think you are also mis-interpreting the use of Wordpress here - not that I 
have actually explained in detail what I've done.

I tweaked it so that the last-modified time is treated as the publish time - 
this makes sure any updated messages float to the top. The RSS and Twitter 
feeds will redistribute updates.

I also write it not like a blog, but as a MotD - short, simple with clear 
headings. Almost all messages are 1-2 liners.


So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm 
stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).



The "post it" note analogy is unfair - this does not involve walking ointo 
my office. Nor does it involve actually checking the web page if you are 
able to make use of RSS or Twitter feeds.

There is also an element of "I've done my best to communicate" - it really 
is in their interests to avail themselves of the information - otherwise 
there's not much I can do about it when a service goes offline for scheduled 
work.

Reasonable and workable ideas most welcome!

Cheers

Tim

-- 
Tim Watts           Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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#7658

In article <1ng52a-um3.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> wrote:
>On Monday 25 March 2013 00:13 Bruce Sinclair wrote in comp.os.linux.misc:
>> In article <rasu1a-m6i.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
>> <tw+usenet@dionic.net> wrote: (snip)
>>>These days, I just run a Wordpress blog with auto Twitter and RSS feeds
>>>and tell everyone to watch it in the way least inconvenient to them.
>>>They don't of course - but if they complain about some "unannounced"
>>>event, I quietly point at the blog entry that was posted a week ago :-|
>> 
>> I'm with your non blog reading users here, and reckon they are quite
>> right to complain. Blogs are not communication. :)
>> Communication involves information being received as well as sent, not
>> just 'posted somewhere'.
>> You might as well stick a postit note on your computer telling someone
>> their
>>  machine will be rebooted in 10 minutes. You have communicated (in a braod
>> sense :) ) ... just not with them.
>> Blogs are a semi private doodle box. That's all. :) :)
>
>OK - do you have a better idea?

All I'm saying is that "communication" is not one sided (ie someone puts 
some information somewhere). Either you want to communicate or you don't. 
Many organisations seem not to care these days (ie say they want to but 
don't act like they want to). I think that is a "Bad Thing". :)
Your "solution" would not work for me. You would be failing to communicate 
with me.

>You are very quick to rubbish an approach when the alternatives seem less 
>desireable:

You appear to be deciding this without reference to your users. Again, 
while this seems these days to be a common approach, it still isn't a good 
one IMO. :)


>1) Email everything all the time. Yep - tried that. Along with all the other 
>"spam" my colleagues get from other sources, they tend to blank it out - as 
>do I wtih other messages.
>I reserve email for "really important" messages.

Interesting. Spam filtering is easy and powerful these days. I no longer get 
any (OK, maybe 1 a month :) ).
What I do do is to sort incoming emails into folders. Email would work for 
me (as I could see there was a message from "IT guy" in the IT folder). If I 
then choose not to read it, my bad. I reckon I miss maybe 1 important email 
every 3 months at the moment. Happy to live with that. :)


>2) Force all users to use company managed desktops. That worked at my last 
>place, but there, we had a team of 11 programmers - and Linux, Windows and 
>MacOSX desktops were very well supported. 
>Here, I am running 160 servers, single handed. So 3 flavours of managed 
>desktop are out of the question for 60 staff. I might just manage a 
>supported linux desktop.

Locked down machines are evil. Agreed.


>Also, a lot of our users work remotely on laptops which makes support even 
>harder.

Indeed.

>So - it seems to me that a web based message feed with a couple of other 
>feed machanisms are the only viable way - everyone has a browser.

Ask any users how they want the info ?


>I think you are also mis-interpreting the use of Wordpress here - not that I 
>have actually explained in detail what I've done.
>I tweaked it so that the last-modified time is treated as the publish time - 
>this makes sure any updated messages float to the top. The RSS and Twitter 
>feeds will redistribute updates.
>I also write it not like a blog, but as a MotD - short, simple with clear 
>headings. Almost all messages are 1-2 liners.

I'm not familiar with wordpress, but what you are doing sounds better than 
most "blogs". But again ... if you put the responsibility (and the blame 
when it fails) for communication entirely on the recipient, then you *will* 
get complaints. No surprises there ... at least, not for me.


>So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm 
>stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).

As I said earlier, email would be my choice. Preference would be for a 
standard (and so filterable) subject as well.


>The "post it" note analogy is unfair - this does not involve walking ointo 
>my office. 

I think the analogy is indeed fair. You are putting the responsibility and 
blame on the users in both cases. Not fair.


> Nor does it involve actually checking the web page if you are 
> able to make use of RSS or Twitter feeds.

Feeds and twitter are not the answer, they are the question. The answer is 
no ... or more accurately ... why on earth would I want to do that ? ? :)
No, I don't own a mobile phone for exactly the same reason - it has no 
value for me. :)


>There is also an element of "I've done my best to communicate" - it really 
>is in their interests to avail themselves of the information - otherwise 
>there's not much I can do about it when a service goes offline for scheduled 
>work.
>Reasonable and workable ideas most welcome!

Suggest asking the users what they want and doing that. You might be 
surprised what they come up with. It might even surprise me (they might like 
how you are doing it) ... but I doubt that. :)
Communication is a 2 way street ... and deciding to make it one way without 
consultation will result in grumpiness. Rightly I suggest. :)

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#7661

On 26/03/13 00:15, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>> In article<rasu1a-m6i.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts

>
>> >So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm
>> >stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).
> As I said earlier, email would be my choice. Preference would be for a
> standard (and so filterable) subject as well.
>

I agree. We experimeted with little popup up boxes that beeped  using a 
custome daemoinn  that we required everybody to run, that we coded up 
for DOS and windows - then the unix machines had no guis, so the sort of 
talkd/write stuff worked for them.

Today the answer is simple; have an email client such as thunderbird, 
and tell people to run it to check for messages every few minutes.. Then 
send (short) email messages and have it configured to actually pop up 
and tell them the subject of the message. You cant do much more than that.

Unless you write popup code and install it as a demon on everybodies 
machine and tell them they cant switch it off.

>
That is not impossible, but its quite a task.



-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#7663

On Tuesday 26 March 2013 01:39 The Natural Philosopher wrote in 
comp.os.linux.misc:

> On 26/03/13 00:15, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article<rasu1a-m6i.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
> 
>>
>>> >So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm
>>> >stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).
>> As I said earlier, email would be my choice. Preference would be for a
>> standard (and so filterable) subject as well.
>>
> 
> I agree. We experimeted with little popup up boxes that beeped  using a
> custome daemoinn  that we required everybody to run, that we coded up
> for DOS and windows - then the unix machines had no guis, so the sort of
> talkd/write stuff worked for them.
> 
> Today the answer is simple; have an email client such as thunderbird,
> and tell people to run it to check for messages every few minutes.. Then
> send (short) email messages and have it configured to actually pop up
> and tell them the subject of the message. You cant do much more than that.

That is impossible to implement here - a lot of people use Outlook or 
whatever MacOSX uses.

As I said, I don;t control the desktop...

> Unless you write popup code and install it as a demon on everybodies
> machine and tell them they cant switch it off.
> 
>>
> That is not impossible, but its quite a task.
> 
> 
> 
-- 
Tim Watts           Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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#7664

On 26/03/13 08:04, Tim Watts wrote:
> On Tuesday 26 March 2013 01:39 The Natural Philosopher wrote in
> comp.os.linux.misc:
>
>> On 26/03/13 00:15, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>>> In article<rasu1a-m6i.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
>>
>>>
>>>>> So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm
>>>>> stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).
>>> As I said earlier, email would be my choice. Preference would be for a
>>> standard (and so filterable) subject as well.
>>>
>>
>> I agree. We experimeted with little popup up boxes that beeped  using a
>> custome daemoinn  that we required everybody to run, that we coded up
>> for DOS and windows - then the unix machines had no guis, so the sort of
>> talkd/write stuff worked for them.
>>
>> Today the answer is simple; have an email client such as thunderbird,
>> and tell people to run it to check for messages every few minutes.. Then
>> send (short) email messages and have it configured to actually pop up
>> and tell them the subject of the message. You cant do much more than that.
>
> That is impossible to implement here - a lot of people use Outlook or
> whatever MacOSX uses.
>

MAC OSX can be set up to do that with the native client, and Thunderbird 
also works on OSX.

And Thunderbird works on Windows too., so why not set up a little 
Thunderbird client on each machine for the sole purpose of receiving 
these emails?

Hell set up a special pop server at HQ and give everyone a mail account 
on it. like we did before we had internet connectivity.

Its a literal piece of piss.

1/. At HQ minimal Linux server with access to POP on port 110
2/. On above set up a user account for every single person.
3/. configure its mail system to not send except locally.
4/. configure it to accept mail sent to user@maintenance.mydomain.com or 
whatever.
5/. If you want to accept mail from outside to it, point mx records 
towards it fo rthat domain, otherwise send mail locally FROM that server 
itself to simply 'user'. set up alsases for 'all users' 'techies' ' and 
so on sub groups.

6/. install minimal Thunderbird on everyone's machine. Don't tell them 
its mail at all.
7/. set it up to launch on boot and go into the background.
8/. configure it to pop up a dialogue box on incoming mail
9/. configure it to poll the server every 5 mins
10/. configure it to have no outgoing mail capabilities at all.

Job done.

If they disable the client ignore the messages fire them.



> As I said, I don;t control the desktop...
>

then you have in principle no way to enforce a messaging system at all.

Its no use phoning someone who decides to switch their phone off, or 
gong round and knocking on their door when they have headphones on 
listening to hip hop.


If its that imnportant, and they fuck you around, fire them.


>> Unless you write popup code and install it as a demon on everybodies
>> machine and tell them they cant switch it off.
>>
>>>
>> That is not impossible, but its quite a task.
>>
>>
>>
with thunderbird you dont even have to write it.

BUT the minmal code to poll - say - port 110 on remote machine y and 
pull down a messaage titlee and one line and put it in a dialogue box is 
fairly trivial for at least Linux and OSX. I cant answer for windows but 
I would imagine that its pretty easy there too.

After all standard code exists to create daemons open sockets and pop up 
dialogue boxes in most application level libraries.

You could almost certainly find source for some 'widget' that sits in e 
task bar and does that sort of shit anyway, and hack it a bit.

I mean a classic example on linux is the gnome update manager. it polls 
remote machines and puts an icon up to tell you there is something to be 
done.

I also have some weather widget.


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#7662

On Tuesday 26 March 2013 00:15 Bruce Sinclair wrote in comp.os.linux.misc:
> 
> All I'm saying is that "communication" is not one sided (ie someone puts
> some information somewhere). Either you want to communicate or you don't.
> Many organisations seem not to care these days (ie say they want to but
> don't act like they want to). I think that is a "Bad Thing". :)
> Your "solution" would not work for me. You would be failing to communicate
> with me.

Fair enough if you feel like that, but as a member of my department, you 
would be deemed to have some duty to make an effort to reveive 
communication.

Look - there is one person in my team - me. I build and support 150 linus 
servers, 10 or so Windows servers, the hardware (VMWare ESX) that they live 
on and advise my developer colleagues on ground that lies equally between us 
(OS matters, RDBMSs and apache for example).

I simply do not have the time to hand deliver telegrams to people or pander 
to every personal whim.
 
>>You are very quick to rubbish an approach when the alternatives seem less
>>desireable:
> 
> You appear to be deciding this without reference to your users. Again,
> while this seems these days to be a common approach, it still isn't a good
> one IMO. :)

I will accept that - for now - but with reference to the "don;t have time" 
noted above.

Our folk are not even all physically present - many are are remote sites or 
work from home. I can chat with a few developers about stuff like this, and 
do, but for now, this communication is more than exsited when I arrived 
there.

> 
>>1) Email everything all the time. Yep - tried that. Along with all the
>>other "spam" my colleagues get from other sources, they tend to blank it
>>out - as do I wtih other messages.
>>I reserve email for "really important" messages.
> 
> Interesting. Spam filtering is easy and powerful these days. I no longer
> get any (OK, maybe 1 a month :) ).

You misunderstand. It's not SPAM spam (aka willy pills). It's "spam" as in 
"I'm not interested". There's a lot of it - college wide emails, 
school(faculty) wide, other departmental stuff.

The last thing people want (and I do know this because several said to me) 
is more "crap". Hence the decision to reduce my dept wide emails to only the 
most urgent - those that refer to something that affects everyone.

Hence I have to put the rest of the information somewhere. And for now, this 
is the best I have.

> What I do do is to sort incoming emails into folders. Email would work for
> me (as I could see there was a message from "IT guy" in the IT folder). If
> I then choose not to read it, my bad. I reckon I miss maybe 1 important
> email every 3 months at the moment. Happy to live with that. :)
> 
> 
>>2) Force all users to use company managed desktops. That worked at my last
>>place, but there, we had a team of 11 programmers - and Linux, Windows and
>>MacOSX desktops were very well supported.
>>Here, I am running 160 servers, single handed. So 3 flavours of managed
>>desktop are out of the question for 60 staff. I might just manage a
>>supported linux desktop.
> 
> Locked down machines are evil. Agreed.
> 
> 
>>Also, a lot of our users work remotely on laptops which makes support even
>>harder.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
>>So - it seems to me that a web based message feed with a couple of other
>>feed machanisms are the only viable way - everyone has a browser.
> 
> Ask any users how they want the info ?
> 
> 
>>I think you are also mis-interpreting the use of Wordpress here - not that
>>I have actually explained in detail what I've done.
>>I tweaked it so that the last-modified time is treated as the publish time
>>- this makes sure any updated messages float to the top. The RSS and
>>Twitter feeds will redistribute updates.
>>I also write it not like a blog, but as a MotD - short, simple with clear
>>headings. Almost all messages are 1-2 liners.
> 
> I'm not familiar with wordpress, but what you are doing sounds better than
> most "blogs". But again ... if you put the responsibility (and the blame
> when it fails) for communication entirely on the recipient, then you
> *will* get complaints. No surprises there ... at least, not for me.
> 
> 
>>So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm
>>stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).
> 
> As I said earlier, email would be my choice. Preference would be for a
> standard (and so filterable) subject as well.
> 


>>The "post it" note analogy is unfair - this does not involve walking ointo
>>my office.
> 
> I think the analogy is indeed fair. You are putting the responsibility and
> blame on the users in both cases. Not fair.

I'm sorry you don't like it. As I said, I do not have the luxury to provide 
a custom individual service to 50 people plus a hundred or so external folk, 
any more than your bus company can afford to provide you with your favourity 
drink and paper when you ride with them.

This is the real world. There are three ways to receive information from me. 
Expecting any more at present given my work situation is unreasonable. 
Obviously you cannot know the details of my working day, but it's busy. And 
despite how I might come over here, I take pride in offering a service - 
however, the line I take is very much

"you have a lot of work for me - tell me what you need and let me manage it 
and you will get what you need."

That approach has been extremely sucessful in terms of increasing 
deliverables and decreasing systems failures and my personal appraisal 
records it so.

If my colleagues feel strongly about this, then will tell me. I do not 
however have the time to conduct endless fluffy surveys (which would piss 
them off anyway).

Your email suggestion: I've already explained why a blanket dept wide email 
will not work. However, what might be helpful would be to feed it into a 
list that people who wanted to (like yourself) could subscribe to.

That's certainly an idea with merit - not sure if I can implement this yet - 
but I will certainly tout that idea at the next opportunity.


> 
>> Nor does it involve actually checking the web page if you are
>> able to make use of RSS or Twitter feeds.
> 
> Feeds and twitter are not the answer, they are the question. The answer is
> no ... or more accurately ... why on earth would I want to do that ? ? :)
> No, I don't own a mobile phone for exactly the same reason - it has no
> value for me. :)
> 
> 
>>There is also an element of "I've done my best to communicate" - it really
>>is in their interests to avail themselves of the information - otherwise
>>there's not much I can do about it when a service goes offline for
>>scheduled work.
>>Reasonable and workable ideas most welcome!
> 
> Suggest asking the users what they want and doing that. You might be
> surprised what they come up with. It might even surprise me (they might
> like how you are doing it) ... but I doubt that. :)
> Communication is a 2 way street ... and deciding to make it one way
> without consultation will result in grumpiness. Rightly I suggest. :)
-- 
Tim Watts           Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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#7665

In article <ca182a-b8v.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net> wrote:
>On Tuesday 26 March 2013 00:15 Bruce Sinclair wrote in comp.os.linux.misc:
>> All I'm saying is that "communication" is not one sided (ie someone puts
>> some information somewhere). Either you want to communicate or you don't.
>> Many organisations seem not to care these days (ie say they want to but
>> don't act like they want to). I think that is a "Bad Thing". :)
>> Your "solution" would not work for me. You would be failing to communicate
>> with me.
>Fair enough if you feel like that, but as a member of my department, you 
>would be deemed to have some duty to make an effort to reveive 
>communication.
>Look - there is one person in my team - me. I build and support 150 linus 
>servers, 10 or so Windows servers, the hardware (VMWare ESX) that they live 
>on and advise my developer colleagues on ground that lies equally between us 
>(OS matters, RDBMSs and apache for example).
>I simply do not have the time to hand deliver telegrams to people or pander 
>to every personal whim.

Sounds like there aren't enough of you. What's your work load like ? "unnaceptable" as is sadly so often the case these days ? 


 
>>>You are very quick to rubbish an approach when the alternatives seem less
>>>desireable:
>> You appear to be deciding this without reference to your users. Again,
>> while this seems these days to be a common approach, it still isn't a good
>> one IMO. :)
>I will accept that - for now - but with reference to the "don;t have time" 
>noted above.

Accept that no one seems to have the time to do what we oldies used to call 
"a proper job". :) I am reminded of the old adage ...
Good, fast, cheap - pick any 2.
Sadly, we (as societies) tend to pick fast and cheap these days. Not IMO a 
recipe for even medium term (5 ish years) success.


>Our folk are not even all physically present - many are are remote sites or 
>work from home. I can chat with a few developers about stuff like this, and 
>do, but for now, this communication is more than exsited when I arrived 
>there.

Better is good. But beeter isn't necessarily "good". :)


>>>1) Email everything all the time. Yep - tried that. Along with all the
>>>other "spam" my colleagues get from other sources, they tend to blank it
>>>out - as do I wtih other messages.
>>>I reserve email for "really important" messages.
>> Interesting. Spam filtering is easy and powerful these days. I no longer
>> get any (OK, maybe 1 a month :) ).
>You misunderstand. It's not SPAM spam (aka willy pills). It's "spam" as in 
>"I'm not interested". There's a lot of it - college wide emails, 
>school(faculty) wide, other departmental stuff.

I don't really misunderstand. :) These unwanted institutional emails are the 
reason filtering is so good. I now get no (very little) spam ... including 
things I define as 'me having no interest in getting'. They go straight to 
the deleted pile.


>The last thing people want (and I do know this because several said to me) 
>is more "crap". Hence the decision to reduce my dept wide emails to only the 
>most urgent - those that refer to something that affects everyone.
>Hence I have to put the rest of the information somewhere. And for now, this 
>is the best I have.

We all do the best we can with what we have. Problems arise only if we then 
begin to assume that what we have and have done is in fact the "best" 
solution.


>> What I do do is to sort incoming emails into folders. Email would work for
>> me (as I could see there was a message from "IT guy" in the IT folder). If
>> I then choose not to read it, my bad. I reckon I miss maybe 1 important
>> email every 3 months at the moment. Happy to live with that. :)
>>>2) Force all users to use company managed desktops. That worked at my last
>>>place, but there, we had a team of 11 programmers - and Linux, Windows and
>>>MacOSX desktops were very well supported.
>>>Here, I am running 160 servers, single handed. So 3 flavours of managed
>>>desktop are out of the question for 60 staff. I might just manage a
>>>supported linux desktop.
>> Locked down machines are evil. Agreed.
>>>Also, a lot of our users work remotely on laptops which makes support even
>>>harder.
>> Indeed.
>>>So - it seems to me that a web based message feed with a couple of other
>>>feed machanisms are the only viable way - everyone has a browser.
>> Ask any users how they want the info ?
>>>I think you are also mis-interpreting the use of Wordpress here - not that
>>>I have actually explained in detail what I've done.
>>>I tweaked it so that the last-modified time is treated as the publish time
>>>- this makes sure any updated messages float to the top. The RSS and
>>>Twitter feeds will redistribute updates.
>>>I also write it not like a blog, but as a MotD - short, simple with clear
>>>headings. Almost all messages are 1-2 liners.
>> I'm not familiar with wordpress, but what you are doing sounds better than
>> most "blogs". But again ... if you put the responsibility (and the blame
>> when it fails) for communication entirely on the recipient, then you
>> *will* get complaints. No surprises there ... at least, not for me.
>>>So if you have a better idea, I would be very interested - because I'm
>>>stumped to do any better (without a huge amount of effort).
>> As I said earlier, email would be my choice. Preference would be for a
>> standard (and so filterable) subject as well.

>>>The "post it" note analogy is unfair - this does not involve walking ointo
>>>my office.
>> I think the analogy is indeed fair. You are putting the responsibility and
>> blame on the users in both cases. Not fair.
>I'm sorry you don't like it. As I said, I do not have the luxury to provide 
>a custom individual service to 50 people plus a hundred or so external folk, 
>any more than your bus company can afford to provide you with your favourity 
>drink and paper when you ride with them.

See earlier comments about work load and doing the best we can in the 
circumstances. :)


>This is the real world. There are three ways to receive information from me. 
>Expecting any more at present given my work situation is unreasonable. 
>Obviously you cannot know the details of my working day, but it's busy. And 
>despite how I might come over here, I take pride in offering a service - 
>however, the line I take is very much
>"you have a lot of work for me - tell me what you need and let me manage it 
>and you will get what you need."
>That approach has been extremely sucessful in terms of increasing 
>deliverables and decreasing systems failures and my personal appraisal 
>records it so.

See earlier comments about work load and doing the best we can in the 
circumstances. :)


>If my colleagues feel strongly about this, then will tell me. I do not 
>however have the time to conduct endless fluffy surveys (which would piss 
>them off anyway).

Interestingl, IME, while many might complain, few actually do so to either 
the person they are complaining about or anyone who can actually do anything 
to fix the problem. There's probably some kind of law related to this. If 
there isn't there should be. :)


>Your email suggestion: I've already explained why a blanket dept wide email 
>will not work. However, what might be helpful would be to feed it into a 
>list that people who wanted to (like yourself) could subscribe to.
>That's certainly an idea with merit - not sure if I can implement this yet - 
>but I will certainly tout that idea at the next opportunity.
(snip)

Thre's always another way ... but circumstances alter cases. As before, I'm 
sure you are doing the best you can with what you have. 

Remember however to occasionally ask the questions ...
Do I have enough ?
Is there a better way ?

They tend to improve everyone's life. :)

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#7542

On Friday, March 22nd, 2013, at 04:30:09h +0000, Robert Riches asked:

> Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
> that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
> preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
> server daemon?

You cannot get away from using a central server daemon if you
want the same user to be able to send the same message to
multiple parties.

Otherwise ensure that each user has done  mesg y
and then each user can send a message to another with
the write command.

NAME
     write - send a message to another user

SYNOPSIS
     write user [tty]

Of course root can send a message to all users simultaneously with wall.

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#7546

Robert Riches asked:
> Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
> that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
> preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
> server daemon?

Install the "talk" and "talkd" packages.  On Debian no set-up or
configuration is required.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

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#7565

On 2013-03-22, John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Robert Riches asked:
>> Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
>> that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
>> preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
>> server daemon?
>
> Install the "talk" and "talkd" packages.  On Debian no set-up or
> configuration is required.

Many thanks for the suggestions.  Apparently, talk and talkd
aren't available as RPMs for Mageia 2.  Round 1 of Googling found
just man pages without an obvious link to the source.  Note to
self left to Google some more for it.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#7566

On 2013-03-22, J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> wrote:
> On Friday, March 22nd, 2013, at 04:30:09h +0000, Robert Riches asked:
>
>> Is there a reasonably simple pseudo instant messenger program
>> that would work between multiple users on the same Linux machine,
>> preferably without needing to set up and configure a 'central'
>> server daemon?
>
> You cannot get away from using a central server daemon if you
> want the same user to be able to send the same message to
> multiple parties.
>
> Otherwise ensure that each user has done  mesg y
> and then each user can send a message to another with
> the write command.
>
> NAME
>      write - send a message to another user
>
> SYNOPSIS
>      write user [tty]
>
> Of course root can send a message to all users simultaneously with wall.

While a central server daemon may be the most practical way to do
inter-user communication of this type, there are other methods.
Potential security issues exist for at least some daemon-free
solutions.

Unfortunately, the write program mentioned above seems to require
the utmp (or maybe it's wtmp) database to be maintained.  On my
Mageia 2 system, 'tty' in one xterm shows /dev/pts/0.  From
another xterm, a 'write' command to my username at that tty says
I'm not logged in on that tty.  The finger command says nobody is
logged in, though I have at least three active xterms.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#7575

On Saturday, March 23rd, 2013, at 04:04:36 +0000, Robert Riches observed:
 
> While a central server daemon may be the most practical way to do
> inter-user communication of this type, there are other methods.
> Potential security issues exist for at least some daemon-free
> solutions.

Indeed so.

It might seem like overkill, but if you are prepared to consider
installing server software which is the best solution, then why
not think about a local irc daemon?

Then users can have multichat sessions and the possibility of
private or public topics.

It is even possible to use a web browser with add on extension
as an IRC client nowadays.

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