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Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released

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  Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-12-09 11:18 +0000
    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-12-09 23:30 +0000
      Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-09 23:58 +0000
        Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-12-10 10:30 +0100
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-10 05:16 -0500
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 11:23 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-10 12:18 +0000
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-10 22:34 -0500
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-12-11 12:13 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-11 03:17 +0000
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-11 01:06 -0500
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-11 22:22 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-12-12 09:59 -0500
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 11:21 +0000
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-10 11:35 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-13 12:35 +0000
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-10 08:58 -0800
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 17:17 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-11 01:03 -0500
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-11 09:43 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-12-11 12:15 +0100
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-11 12:44 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-11 22:50 -0500
                  Freighters "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-12 12:15 +0100
                    Re: Freighters rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 19:33 +0000
                      Re: Freighters "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-13 13:24 +0100
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-13 12:43 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <fflud@gnu.rocks> - 2025-12-13 15:17 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released bonkmaykr <bonkyboo@canithesis.org> - 2025-12-13 09:30 -0600
                    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-12-13 10:46 -0500
                    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Farley Flud <fflud@gnu.rocks> - 2025-12-13 16:02 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-13 16:08 +0000
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-13 12:27 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-13 23:46 +0100
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-14 02:05 +0000
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-14 11:33 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 20:25 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 01:31 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-12-15 10:43 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-15 01:06 +0100
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 03:41 +0000
                    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 03:49 +0000
                      Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 04:05 +0000
                    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-17 23:46 +0100
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-14 22:14 -0500
        Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released CtrlAltDel <Altie@BHam.com> - 2025-12-10 23:58 +0000
      Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 11:19 +0000
        Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-12-10 10:45 -0600
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2025-12-11 04:06 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-11 01:25 -0500
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-11 09:38 +0000
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-11 22:36 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-11 23:41 -0500
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 08:15 +0000
                    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-12 22:36 -0500
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-12 11:45 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 19:59 +0000
            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 00:28 +0000
              Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2025-12-15 00:41 +0000
                Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 00:45 +0000
                  Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2025-12-15 01:14 +0000
                    Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 02:59 +0000
                      Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2025-12-15 03:41 +0000
                        Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 04:46 +0000
                          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2025-12-16 04:17 +0000
                            Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-16 21:52 +0000
          Re: Kewl. Common Desktop Environment 2.5.3 Released c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-11 00:07 -0500

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#79115

On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2025 00:41:17 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>
>> If by that you mean that Linux has more-or-less unified the
>> mainstream, I'll wait to pass judgement until I see how much damage
>> the systemd Trojan horse and Wayla[ni]d do.
>
> I don’t know why you see them as causing “damage”. People only use
> them because they are better than the alternatives -- and those who
> disagree continue to use something else.

For systemd, by "damage" I mean the first test VM I did with
(IIRC) Mageia 2 where the freshly installed system hung during
boot, then after several minutes systemd timed out everything,
and the system came up on a zombie-like state.  Some of the RAIDs
had assembled, but some had not.  The default package list had
not installed the tool necessary to decrypt the binary journal.
I also mean the many reports of legitimate bug reports being
summarily closed as "will not fix".  Devuan works quite nicely
for me.

For Wayla[ni]d, I mean the reported throwing of network
transparency (and perhaps other important use cases) out with the
bathwater and some credible-sounding reports that it is not now
and will probably never be ready for prime time.

> Linux is all about choice.

Fully agree!

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#79117

On 15 Dec 2025 01:14:22 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

> On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 Dec 2025 00:41:17 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>>
>>> If by that you mean that Linux has more-or-less unified the
>>> mainstream, I'll wait to pass judgement until I see how much
>>> damage the systemd Trojan horse and Wayla[ni]d do.
>>
>> I don’t know why you see them as causing “damage”. People only use
>> them because they are better than the alternatives -- and those who
>> disagree continue to use something else.
>
> For systemd, by "damage" I mean the first test VM I did with (IIRC)
> Mageia 2 where the freshly installed system hung during boot, then
> after several minutes systemd timed out everything, and the system
> came up on a zombie-like state. Some of the RAIDs had assembled, but
> some had not. The default package list had not installed the tool
> necessary to decrypt the binary journal.

Sounds like a package-management bug, not a systemd bug. In other
words, a distro problem.

> I also mean the many reports of legitimate bug reports being
> summarily closed as "will not fix".

Feel free to point out any current examples of these. Remember that,
if the upstream developers will not fix an important bug, somebody
else will, and fork the project if necessary.

> For Wayla[ni]d, I mean the reported throwing of network
> transparency (and perhaps other important use cases) out with the
> bathwater and some credible-sounding reports that it is not now
> and will probably never be ready for prime time.

s/credible-sounding reports/gossip/

Never actually tried it yourself, then? Lots of distros are doing so.

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#79123

On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2025 01:14:22 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>
>> On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 15 Dec 2025 00:41:17 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>>>
>>>> If by that you mean that Linux has more-or-less unified the
>>>> mainstream, I'll wait to pass judgement until I see how much
>>>> damage the systemd Trojan horse and Wayla[ni]d do.
>>>
>>> I don’t know why you see them as causing “damage”. People only use
>>> them because they are better than the alternatives -- and those who
>>> disagree continue to use something else.
>>
>> For systemd, by "damage" I mean the first test VM I did with (IIRC)
>> Mageia 2 where the freshly installed system hung during boot, then
>> after several minutes systemd timed out everything, and the system
>> came up on a zombie-like state. Some of the RAIDs had assembled, but
>> some had not. The default package list had not installed the tool
>> necessary to decrypt the binary journal.
>
> Sounds like a package-management bug, not a systemd bug. In other
> words, a distro problem.

It was not just a package-management bug.  The real problem was
why the system didn't come up in working form in the first place.
The lack of access to the logging/journaling was just salt in the
wound.  It's not a distro problem that a substantial fraction of
the RAIDs to simply not assemble at boot.  IIUC, that's more of a
kernel and init system thing.  If a horse can't get even itself
past the starting gate, it's time to send that horse to the glue
factory.

>> I also mean the many reports of legitimate bug reports being
>> summarily closed as "will not fix".
>
> Feel free to point out any current examples of these. Remember that,
> if the upstream developers will not fix an important bug, somebody
> else will, and fork the project if necessary.

After the first issue, my decision is already made.  That's wny I
said Devuan works just fine for me.

>> For Wayla[ni]d, I mean the reported throwing of network
>> transparency (and perhaps other important use cases) out with the
>> bathwater and some credible-sounding reports that it is not now
>> and will probably never be ready for prime time.
>
> s/credible-sounding reports/gossip/
>
> Never actually tried it yourself, then? Lots of distros are doing so.

Losing network transparency is a biggie and is sufficiently
substantiated.  X is not broken from my perspective.  With my
distribution of choice not defaulting to it, I don't see a reason
to try it.  If I'm thinking of buying a product, if I see as many
1-star reviews as 5-star reviews, I'm not going to spend money on
that product.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#79132

On 15 Dec 2025 03:41:23 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

> On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 Dec 2025 01:14:22 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>>
>>> On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 15 Dec 2025 00:41:17 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If by that you mean that Linux has more-or-less unified the
>>>>> mainstream, I'll wait to pass judgement until I see how much damage
>>>>> the systemd Trojan horse and Wayla[ni]d do.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know why you see them as causing “damage”. People only use
>>>> them because they are better than the alternatives -- and those who
>>>> disagree continue to use something else.
>>>
>>> For systemd, by "damage" I mean the first test VM I did with (IIRC)
>>> Mageia 2 where the freshly installed system hung during boot, then
>>> after several minutes systemd timed out everything, and the system
>>> came up on a zombie-like state. Some of the RAIDs had assembled, but
>>> some had not. The default package list had not installed the tool
>>> necessary to decrypt the binary journal.
>>
>> Sounds like a package-management bug, not a systemd bug. In other
>> words, a distro problem.
> 
> It was not just a package-management bug.

But you said yourself, “the default package list had not installed the 
tool necessary to decrypt the binary journal”. That’s not right.

>>> I also mean the many reports of legitimate bug reports being summarily
>>> closed as "will not fix".
>>
>> Feel free to point out any current examples of these. Remember that, if
>> the upstream developers will not fix an important bug, somebody else
>> will, and fork the project if necessary.
> 
> After the first issue, my decision is already made.

Still waiting for you to point out specific examples of such important 
“wontfix” bugs.

> Losing network transparency is a biggie and is sufficiently
> substantiated.

<https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/>

> X is not broken from my perspective.

Great. Continue using it and supporting it, since it is so important to 
you.

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#79259

On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2025 03:41:23 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>
>> On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 15 Dec 2025 01:14:22 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-12-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15 Dec 2025 00:41:17 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If by that you mean that Linux has more-or-less unified the
>>>>>> mainstream, I'll wait to pass judgement until I see how much damage
>>>>>> the systemd Trojan horse and Wayla[ni]d do.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t know why you see them as causing “damage”. People only use
>>>>> them because they are better than the alternatives -- and those who
>>>>> disagree continue to use something else.
>>>>
>>>> For systemd, by "damage" I mean the first test VM I did with (IIRC)
>>>> Mageia 2 where the freshly installed system hung during boot, then
>>>> after several minutes systemd timed out everything, and the system
>>>> came up on a zombie-like state. Some of the RAIDs had assembled, but
>>>> some had not. The default package list had not installed the tool
>>>> necessary to decrypt the binary journal.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a package-management bug, not a systemd bug. In other
>>> words, a distro problem.
>> 
>> It was not just a package-management bug.
>
> But you said yourself, “the default package list had not installed the 
> tool necessary to decrypt the binary journal”. That’s not right.

The lack of the journal decryption package was only salt in the
wound after the system failed to boot properly, which was the
much bigger problem.

>>>> I also mean the many reports of legitimate bug reports being summarily
>>>> closed as "will not fix".
>>>
>>> Feel free to point out any current examples of these. Remember that, if
>>> the upstream developers will not fix an important bug, somebody else
>>> will, and fork the project if necessary.
>> 
>> After the first issue, my decision is already made.
>
> Still waiting for you to point out specific examples of such important 
> “wontfix” bugs.

I have seen the discussion of 'wontfix' bug reports.  I'm not
aware of a contractual obligation for me to dig through archives
to satisfy your demand for specific examples.

In your first reply to my "how much damage" message, you said,
"Linux is all about choice."  I have made my choice.  It appears
you have made yours.

>> Losing network transparency is a biggie and is sufficiently
>> substantiated.
>
><https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/>

Interesting.  Bookmarked.  Thanks.  A skim indicates it might
suffice if I'm ever in a situation that requires it.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#79320

On 16 Dec 2025 04:17:53 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

> The lack of the journal decryption package was only salt in the
> wound after the system failed to boot properly, which was the much
> bigger problem.

journalctl is part of the systemd core, not a separate package.
Failure to install it as part of systemd represents a screwup on the
part of your distro’s package management. What else did it screwup at
the same time?

<https://packages.debian.org/trixie/amd64/systemd/filelist>
<https://packages.debian.org/trixie/arm64/systemd/filelist>

> I have seen the discussion of 'wontfix' bug reports. I'm not aware
> of a contractual obligation for me to dig through archives to
> satisfy your demand for specific examples.

You *do* have to back up your point, in order to make a credible
argument. This is Usenet; not web-based, proprietary-based, ad-driven
social media; nobody has to take your word for things.

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#78755

On 12/10/25 11:45, chrisv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> vallor wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, I've tried to get Wayland running two times, and both times
>>> it was inscrutable.  I guess I could switch to Cinnamon, but then
>>> I'd have to set it up, and ICBB right now.  So: oh noes, I'm
>>> staying with X11.
>>
>> If that is your experience then fine. At the moment there is the choice.
> 
> Right, and that's what is important.
> 
>> X is good enough for desktop 'puter loaded to the gunwales with RAM and
>> sinking under the weight of its Intel/AMD CPU.
>>
>> And its super power hungry GPU.
> 
> People were running X just fine, decades ago, on single-core CPU's
> running at 200 MHz.

   Very true.

   And it runs on PIs - even the oldest - just fine.

   As said, X is a bit clunky - but it DOES work, is NOT
   evil and IS very very well documented. It has also
   reached the point where it's pretty STABLE.

   I'll just stick with X. By the time Wayland and friends
   are kind of ready I'll likely be too old to care.

   Heh ... remember buying a VERY early RedHat at a
   store. Took two days but I finally got that GUI
   screen with an "X" to pop up. Another day to get
   the damned monitor/KB/mouse stuff adequately tweaked.
   That was a LONG time ago ......

   But never looked back. Saw the kernel of something
   better than Winders.

   Hmmmm ... MIGHT still have that RH distro stashed
   under The Heap somewhere. Think it was all floppies,
   a number of them.

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