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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 501 — 33 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:19 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:26 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-20 09:16 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-20 13:37 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:32 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:25 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-24 11:53 +0200
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Re: Taking Speedy too seriously (Was: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-24 18:53 +0200
Re: Taking Speedy too seriously (Was: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 00:28 -0400
Re: Taking Speedy too seriously (Was: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-26 06:20 +0100
Re: Taking Speedy too seriously (Was: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 03:38 -0400
Re: Taking Speedy too seriously (Was: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-27 05:01 +0100
Re: Taking Speedy too seriously (Was: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-27 12:24 -0400
[OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-28 01:12 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 05:26 -0400
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-28 19:33 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-29 00:19 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-29 12:27 -0400
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-30 03:40 -0400
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-30 19:24 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-30 23:10 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-31 04:14 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 11:40 +0100
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Re: Internal navigation in the online manual (was: Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously)) Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-31 13:11 +0000
Re: Internal navigation in the online manual "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 19:53 +0100
Re: Internal navigation in the online manual "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 19:56 +0100
Re: Internal navigation in the online manual Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-31 22:41 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-31 14:11 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-31 16:57 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 19:56 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-31 22:11 +0100
Re: man pages (was Re: [OT] Punch card times) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-31 21:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Josef Möllers <josef@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-28 17:01 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-28 17:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-28 18:18 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> - 2026-10-28 23:28 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-29 00:11 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-29 00:46 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 22:36 -0400
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 09:13 -0700
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-29 18:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-30 04:00 -0400
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2026-10-29 17:37 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-10-29 20:01 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:18 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2026-10-29 21:40 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-29 23:58 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2026-10-30 15:14 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-30 00:09 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-30 04:33 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-30 11:10 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-30 17:52 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-10-30 17:14 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-30 19:25 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-30 18:26 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-30 19:25 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-30 20:12 +0000
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Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-31 21:38 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 11:49 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-31 16:42 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 20:08 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-31 21:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-31 18:42 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-31 11:57 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-31 18:53 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-31 21:48 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-29 23:48 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-30 04:27 -0400
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Page 14 of 26 — ← Prev page 1 … 12 13 [14] 15 16 … 26 Next page →
| From | "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 11:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nkluscFas32U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94812 |
On 2026-10-30 20:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2026-10-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/29/26 12:27, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> rbowman wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 19:33:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The closest I ever came to using an IDE was the symbolic debugger that
>>>>> came with Lattice C for MS-DOS. Simple, effective... and gone.
>>>>
>>>> I missed that one although I did use MS C after they bought Lattice and
>>>> developed it further. I will say for its era Microsoft C had excellent
>>>> hard copy documentation.
>>>
>>> I agree with that last sentence. In the 80's the manuals for their
>>> C and FORTRAN were very good, and obviously inspired by the layout
>>> of DEC's manuals.
>>
>> You are correct - manuals/docs were EXTREMELY good
>> for such stuff "back in the day". Found a manual
>> for "Aztec C" (great !) from the old days ... WOW ! ...
>> literally bit-level shit in there in case you needed
>> to hyper-optimize something. Clearly the people who
>> wrote the doc also wrote the compiler.
>>
>> More VOLUME of docs these days ... but "As Good" ???
>
> Hardly. Most manuals back in the day had a section titled
> "Theory of Operation". I really miss that.
Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 10:49 +0000 |
| Subject | Internal navigation in the online manual (was: Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously)) |
| Message-ID | <11c4h4n$1025g$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94832 |
On 2026-10-31, Carlos E. R. wrote: > On 2026-10-30 20:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> On 2026-10-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: >> >>> On 10/29/26 12:27, Chris Ahlstrom wrote: >>> >>>> rbowman wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed): >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 19:33:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The closest I ever came to using an IDE was the symbolic debugger that >>>>>> came with Lattice C for MS-DOS. Simple, effective... and gone. >>>>> >>>>> I missed that one although I did use MS C after they bought Lattice and >>>>> developed it further. I will say for its era Microsoft C had excellent >>>>> hard copy documentation. >>>> >>>> I agree with that last sentence. In the 80's the manuals for their >>>> C and FORTRAN were very good, and obviously inspired by the layout >>>> of DEC's manuals. >>> >>> You are correct - manuals/docs were EXTREMELY good >>> for such stuff "back in the day". Found a manual >>> for "Aztec C" (great !) from the old days ... WOW ! ... >>> literally bit-level shit in there in case you needed >>> to hyper-optimize something. Clearly the people who >>> wrote the doc also wrote the compiler. >>> >>> More VOLUME of docs these days ... but "As Good" ??? >> >> Hardly. Most manuals back in the day had a section titled >> "Theory of Operation". I really miss that. > > > Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use, > specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of > content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better. Isn't that more about the viewer using to read the manual pages, than a flaw of the online manual in itself? -- Nuno Silva
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 13:11 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Internal navigation in the online manual (was: Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously)) |
| Message-ID | <6ae5e8f6$0$3138$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94837 |
Le 31-10-2026, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> a écrit : > On 2026-10-31, Carlos E. R. wrote: > >> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use, >> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of >> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better. > > Isn't that more about the viewer using to read the manual pages, than a > flaw of the online manual in itself? Maybe. When I wanted to learned about Linux, I hated man pages. I found them awful and useless. Now, I'm using them only when I know what I'm looking for. I mean, when I don't know something, I know that the man page will send me a useless shit load of details without anything useful. Or, if anything is useful it's buried and hidden among useless stuff. If I'm looking for a fast way to use a command, I'm using tldr. If I want to understand a command, I avoid man pages and go look for some information on Internet. It's only when I want to know what an option is really doing or if an option exists that I'm going to look for it in the man pages. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 19:53 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Internal navigation in the online manual |
| Message-ID | <nkmrq0FftpsU5@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94841 |
On 2026-10-31 14:11, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 31-10-2026, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> On 2026-10-31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>>> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
>>> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
>>> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better.
>>
>> Isn't that more about the viewer using to read the manual pages, than a
>> flaw of the online manual in itself?
>
> Maybe. When I wanted to learned about Linux, I hated man pages. I found
> them awful and useless. Now, I'm using them only when I know what I'm
> looking for. I mean, when I don't know something, I know that the man
> page will send me a useless shit load of details without anything
> useful. Or, if anything is useful it's buried and hidden among useless
> stuff. If I'm looking for a fast way to use a command, I'm using tldr.
> If I want to understand a command, I avoid man pages and go look for
> some information on Internet. It's only when I want to know what an
> option is really doing or if an option exists that I'm going to look for
> it in the man pages.
I ask chatgpt how to use the command.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 19:56 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Internal navigation in the online manual |
| Message-ID | <nkmrv0FftpsU7@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94837 |
On 2026-10-31 11:49, Nuno Silva wrote:
> On 2026-10-31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> On 2026-10-30 20:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2026-10-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/29/26 12:27, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> rbowman wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 19:33:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The closest I ever came to using an IDE was the symbolic debugger that
>>>>>>> came with Lattice C for MS-DOS. Simple, effective... and gone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I missed that one although I did use MS C after they bought Lattice and
>>>>>> developed it further. I will say for its era Microsoft C had excellent
>>>>>> hard copy documentation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with that last sentence. In the 80's the manuals for their
>>>>> C and FORTRAN were very good, and obviously inspired by the layout
>>>>> of DEC's manuals.
>>>>
>>>> You are correct - manuals/docs were EXTREMELY good
>>>> for such stuff "back in the day". Found a manual
>>>> for "Aztec C" (great !) from the old days ... WOW ! ...
>>>> literally bit-level shit in there in case you needed
>>>> to hyper-optimize something. Clearly the people who
>>>> wrote the doc also wrote the compiler.
>>>>
>>>> More VOLUME of docs these days ... but "As Good" ???
>>>
>>> Hardly. Most manuals back in the day had a section titled
>>> "Theory of Operation". I really miss that.
>>
>>
>> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
>> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
>> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better.
>
> Isn't that more about the viewer using to read the manual pages, than a
> flaw of the online manual in itself?
No, man pages do not contain links to section of the document. It is not
structured.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 22:41 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Internal navigation in the online manual |
| Message-ID | <wwv33tl1oi1.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94860 |
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes: > On 2026-10-31 11:49, Nuno Silva wrote: >> On 2026-10-31, Carlos E. R. wrote: >>> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use, >>> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of >>> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better. >> >> Isn't that more about the viewer using to read the manual pages, than >> a flaw of the online manual in itself? > > No, man pages do not contain links to section of the document. It is > not structured. Nuno is right; a viewer can include links. For an example see man7.org. -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 14:11 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <18e3a2a67a32de8f$1683$3261087$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com> |
| In reply to | #94832 |
On Sat, 31 Oct 2026 11:40:12 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: > > Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use, > specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of > content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better. > Try TkMan: <https://sourceforge.net/projects/tkman/> But a patch is required for recent Tcl: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tkman/bugs/6/> After patching, just click away. Tk/Tcl is perhaps the most underrated graphical toolkit.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 16:57 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11c5356$n1fl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94832 |
On 2026-10-31 11:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better.
I agree with you on the _horrendous large_ 'man' "pages".
They shouldn't replace exhaustive and thorough documentation, IMO.
But worse I think are the ("maneuverable") 'info' pages.
Or the habit of some "Unixes" to have no man-page information but
only a stub with the hint to look into the (IMO horrendous) 'info'
pages. (I'm aware that some certainly prefer them; how else would
their proliferation be otherwise explainable.)
Concerning "clickable" information generally, mind the time when
man-pages were introduced!
Janis, preferring to avoid mouse-devices in the first place
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 19:56 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nkmruhFftpsU6@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94852 |
On 2026-10-31 16:57, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 2026-10-31 11:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
>> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
>> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better.
>
> I agree with you on the _horrendous large_ 'man' "pages".
> They shouldn't replace exhaustive and thorough documentation, IMO.
> But worse I think are the ("maneuverable") 'info' pages.
> Or the habit of some "Unixes" to have no man-page information but
> only a stub with the hint to look into the (IMO horrendous) 'info'
> pages. (I'm aware that some certainly prefer them; how else would
> their proliferation be otherwise explainable.)
>
> Concerning "clickable" information generally, mind the time when
> man-pages were introduced!
Yes, I understand that. Isn't time we get something better?
>
> Janis, preferring to avoid mouse-devices in the first place
Sure, point and click can also work without a mouse. Use the cursor to
select an entry in the table of contents, then hit enter.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 22:11 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11c5lhs$nak9$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94859 |
On 2026-10-31 19:56, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2026-10-31 16:57, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 2026-10-31 11:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
>>> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
>>> content, no clickable index. Info pages are somewhat better.
>>
>> I agree with you on the _horrendous large_ 'man' "pages".
>> They shouldn't replace exhaustive and thorough documentation, IMO.
>> But worse I think are the ("maneuverable") 'info' pages.
>> Or the habit of some "Unixes" to have no man-page information but
>> only a stub with the hint to look into the (IMO horrendous) 'info'
>> pages. (I'm aware that some certainly prefer them; how else would
>> their proliferation be otherwise explainable.)
>>
>> Concerning "clickable" information generally, mind the time when
>> man-pages were introduced!
>
> Yes, I understand that. Isn't time we get something better?
But technically we have already "clickable" documents; with HTML for
example.
(Although it should still be available in one page, and ideally also
searchable by regexps in easy ways. (As opposed to click on a search
icon, move the mouse to a new sub-window, (optionally) click another
time in that window to "activate" it for input, type in only a fixed
non-regexp text (often without possibility to distinguish caps, or,
if you're lucky, only with an extra click in some control-box), and
hit enter (if you're lucky) or have to again move the mouse to click
on some Okay button.) - I certainly hate to have no '/search-pattern'
or '<Ctrl-F>search-pattern' available; with emphasis on "pattern".)
Personally I typically want (at least) three levels of information.
Terse usage information, complete interface description, and thorough
explanations of all details in case of the more complex tools.
Mostly we (now) have all that information; if only through the Web.
(But often inconsistent or even unreliable.)
Should we have everything just in one (clickable) format like HTML?
I don't think so. Should we have all the spread existing information
rewritten in some other format? Well, who would do that job?
What I (also) criticize is that we don't have a consistent level of
information with some newer Linux platforms. I wished for the "second
level" of information that the man page format would have been kept/
maintained instead of trying to deprive that format in favor of the
'info' format.
>
>>
>> Janis, preferring to avoid mouse-devices in the first place
>
> Sure, point and click can also work without a mouse. Use the cursor to
> select an entry in the table of contents, then hit enter.
Yes, sure. For long documents ("level three" information) with a lot
content where a "table of contents" is sensible that makes completely
sense. (Even pure mouse-control would be fine here [for me] in this
case.)
For the information level where I'd see the man-pages I wouldn't even
need a "table of contents", since that type of information shouldn't
be that voluminous, IMO.
Janis
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-31 21:57 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: man pages (was Re: [OT] Punch card times) |
| Message-ID | <11c5o96$1f300$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94832 |
On Sat, 31 Oct 2026 11:40:12 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Talking of manuals, I find large man pages very difficult to use,
> specially when you need something specific. No clickable table of
> content, no clickable index.
Most man pages are not supposed to be that large. Of course, there
are some exceptions (like bash). For those I think you’ll find the
man page was generated from some other, more navigable form anyway.
For example, if you look at Perl, you will see its documentation is
broken up across a whole series of man pages -- over 200 of them.
(Is that going too far in the other direction, do you think ... ?)
Tip: if you prefer another form, like PDF, it’s quite easy to generate
that from any man page. I used to use a somewhat convoluted command
for this, but it turns the usual Linux “man” command has an option to
directly choose the output format, e.g. view a man page directly in
typeset form without saving it to a file:
man -Tpdf 7 unix | okular - &
(Substitute your choice of favourite PDF reader.)
> Info pages are somewhat better.
I have tried info pages a few times, but always found them awkward to
navigate. I’ve never heard of anybody who liked them.
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| From | Josef Möllers <josef@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 17:01 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nkekj8F5jptU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94728 |
On 28.10.26 01:12, Janis Papanagnou wrote: > On 2026-10-27 17:24, c186282 wrote: >> On 10/27/26 00:01, Janis Papanagnou wrote: >> [...] >> >> The SysLord had a serial terminal, but all >> the rest of us had to do cards. > > I started with punch cards and switched early to a > terminal. Ah ... yes ... The Olde Times ;-) I started studying CS in 1977 (after two years trying my luck at EE). Indeed, we too had to use punched cards in the beginning. > (Frankly, the cards had an advantage; the terminal > made us stay constantly in front of it; write code, > make some changes/fixes, compile, rinse repeat. > With the cards we spent time beforehand designing > the code, seeing and fixing all errors in one turn. > It turned out to be, WRT net-time, more efficient. > But, OTOH, fixing a punching mistake was more time > consuming; needed a lot discipline and attention.) 100% +1! Think twice before punching. I had been told once that IBM developers did not have a compiler or such at their disposal but only a text editor, so they, too, had to think twice before committing their code. > >> >>> >>> PS: The nastiest thing I've encountered with the >>> card deck was that a friend exchanged all my cards >>> which carried the word 'BEGIN' with cards carrying >>> the word 'SADAT' - just as a hilarious play with >>> words WRT two international politicians back then. >>> Not so funny for me when I noticed all the syntax >>> errors and had to wait another hour for the next >>> batch run. >> >> Admit it, was a CLEVER joke ! > > (I can't tell you how pissed I was at that moment!) > > But, with some distance, it was a marvellous prank. > (That's why I still remember it after 40+ years.) > > He was all like that. Sadly he died extremely young. > >> >> SADAT ... do, but barely, remember it now. > > (I do recall his name only because of that joke.) This is SOOO funny! At that time I myself had put a note on the wall stating that with the developments then the keyword BEGIN should be replaced by SADAT. I'm 70 now, retired 4 years ago. Josef
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| From | Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 17:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11bt94v$139ta$9@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94744 |
On 2026-10-28 17:01, Josef Möllers wrote: > [...] > > I had been told once that IBM developers did not have a compiler or such > at their disposal but only a text editor, so they, too, had to think > twice before committing their code. This almost sounds like the joke where the editor was actually just the 'cat' command. :-) >>>> PS: The nastiest thing I've encountered with the >>>> card deck was that a friend exchanged all my cards >>>> which carried the word 'BEGIN' with cards carrying >>>> the word 'SADAT' - just as a hilarious play with >>>> words WRT two international politicians back then. >>>> Not so funny for me when I noticed all the syntax >>>> errors and had to wait another hour for the next >>>> batch run. >>> >>> Admit it, was a CLEVER joke ! >> >> (I can't tell you how pissed I was at that moment!) >> >> But, with some distance, it was a marvellous prank. >> (That's why I still remember it after 40+ years.) >> >> He was all like that. Sadly he died extremely young. >> >>> >>> SADAT ... do, but barely, remember it now. >> >> (I do recall his name only because of that joke.) > > This is SOOO funny! At that time I myself had put a note on the wall > stating that with the developments then the keyword BEGIN should be > replaced by SADAT. Wow, what coincidence! :-) > > I'm 70 now, retired 4 years ago. > > Josef Janis, retired (hopefully only physically) as well
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 18:18 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nkesjgF6rc9U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94744 |
On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 17:01:44 +0100, Josef Möllers wrote: > Ah ... yes ... The Olde Times ;-) > I started studying CS in 1977 (after two years trying my luck at EE). > Indeed, we too had to use punched cards in the beginning. The IBM 2260 terminal came out in 1964 but I didn't see one until I interviewed with IBM/Owego in 1968. If there were any in the college they were buried in a cave. I didn't get the job. IBM found my programming aptitude questionable.
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| From | David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 23:28 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <XnsB4F3C606CC1B5hueydlltampabayrrcom@157.180.91.226> |
| In reply to | #94749 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in news:nkesjgF6rc9U1 @mid.individual.net: > On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 17:01:44 +0100, Josef Möllers wrote: > >> Ah ... yes ... The Olde Times ;-) >> I started studying CS in 1977 (after two years trying my luck at EE). >> Indeed, we too had to use punched cards in the beginning. > > The IBM 2260 terminal came out in 1964 but I didn't see one until I > interviewed with IBM/Owego in 1968. If there were any in the college they > were buried in a cave. > > I didn't get the job. IBM found my programming aptitude questionable. I too grew up accessing computers (the big iron) first with cards and later with terminals as they became available around campus. I agree that cards or anything low tech makes the developer first think about what they want to build and then do so. I had a slight advantage by the time my parents let me take college level computing with a friend at high school. I started on paper with imaginary simple computers via a Saturday morning show on PBS or more likely WGN Chicago. That was much earlier in my life, perhaps Junior High when I was also in an elective class to earn my Amateur Radio Novice Licence. Upon earning that and quickly moving to Technician, I became a member of the local ARRL Club. There I met all kinds of electricians, radio and antenna experts, and one Advanced class leader with his own antenna farm on his farm. He was doing moon bounce and slow scan TV. He showed me his latest project -- a home built Z80 Computer that booted by flipping switches to input the very tiny OS or a simple program. Now that really helped me form my programming and diagnostic capabilities. Thankfully all the Hams and teachers I met over the years were eager to share their knowledge. I loved teachers from any class that would go outside the curriculum and teach students outside class too. I hated students that would interupt a teacher with a question like "Is that going to be on the test?". I loved great teachers and quickly exited the few classes with poor teachers. Starting early classes on any subject with "low tech" helps form the student's mind. Ah the memories of a life well lived. Thank you to all the teachers who helped us form our minds! P.S. During those first years on cards for FORTRAN and COBOL a friend and I "competed" for solving programs with the least lines, comments excluded.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-29 00:11 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nkfha4F6rc9U3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94757 |
On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 23:28:12 -0000 (UTC), David LaRue wrote: > That was much earlier in my life, perhaps Junior High when I was > also in an elective class to earn my Amateur Radio Novice Licence. Upon > earning that and quickly moving to Technician, I became a member of the > local ARRL Club. There I met all kinds of electricians, radio and > antenna experts, and one Advanced class leader with his own antenna farm > on his farm. He was doing moon bounce and slow scan TV. He showed me > his latest project -- a home built Z80 Computer that booted by flipping > switches to input the very tiny OS or a simple program. Now that really > helped me form my programming and diagnostic capabilities. The Sputnik launch awakened interest in STEM subjects but computers were exotic critters when I was in high school. The IBM System 360/30 was released in 1964. RPI had close ties with IBM and iirc had one by 1965. That's what I learned FORTRAN IV on. The Z80 was way in the future. I did eventually get a Amateur Radio license. I'm stubborn enough to keep my Advanced license. They ain't making them anymore but if you had one you could keep it. I wasn't that great with code so I never tried for Extra.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-29 00:46 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11bu51q$2u4ci$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94757 |
On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 23:28:12 -0000 (UTC), David LaRue wrote: > I too grew up accessing computers (the big iron) first with cards > and later with terminals as they became available around campus. I > agree that cards or anything low tech makes the developer first > think about what they want to build and then do so. Imagine if your calculator was like that: you had to think carefully what you wanted to do, and write it down on a coding form or something, before simply switching the thing on and punching buttons ...
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 22:36 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <mIKdndv348emLH_3nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94764 |
On 10/28/26 20:46, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 23:28:12 -0000 (UTC), David LaRue wrote: > >> I too grew up accessing computers (the big iron) first with cards >> and later with terminals as they became available around campus. I >> agree that cards or anything low tech makes the developer first >> think about what they want to build and then do so. > > Imagine if your calculator was like that: you had to think carefully > what you wanted to do, and write it down on a coding form or > something, before simply switching the thing on and punching buttons > ... Well ... THAT'S HOW IT WAS not ALL so long ago. Get it right the FIRST time, or SUFFER. That plus minimal memory/storage ensured good quality, tight, code.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-29 09:13 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <20261029091314.0000126b@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #94767 |
On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 22:36:37 -0400 c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: > Well ... THAT'S HOW IT WAS not ALL so long ago. > > Get it right the FIRST time, or SUFFER. > > That plus minimal memory/storage ensured good quality, tight, code. :s/ensured/encouraged/
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-29 18:13 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <W0MES.44500$lAb6.5817@fx07.iad> |
| In reply to | #94773 |
On 2026-10-29, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 2026 22:36:37 -0400 > c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: > >> Well ... THAT'S HOW IT WAS not ALL so long ago. >> >> Get it right the FIRST time, or SUFFER. >> >> That plus minimal memory/storage ensured good quality, tight, code. > >:s/ensured/encouraged/ It also encouraged efficient, logical, consistent system design. There just weren't the resources to implement the kinds of cruft that seems to be mandatory these days. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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